rogue4jc:
Adam and Eve chose to sin. You have chosen to sin, and I have chosen to sin. I have since then decided that I no longer want to sin.
I agree with all this. I'd say most people no longer want to sin (though they may disagree on what constitutes sin).
rogue4jc:
We deserve our unishment.
I have no problem with people deserving
some punishment. I don't agree at all that everyone deserves torture, even for a small amount of time, let alone eternity.
rogue4jc:
However, God will pay that price for you. God loves us so much, He made it so easy for us. He had Jesus pay our price for our sins in full. God did everything he could, and now it's our choice to accept, and choose what God knows is best for us, even if we don't know it is best for us.
Again, this is all great, except for the fact that he's "Saving" us from his own dilemma. He's not stopping someone else from shooting us, he's stopping himself from shooting us. He's not just prevent us from going to hell, He's deciding not to send us there. I doubt you would consider it all that gracious of me to say, "Just accept me as your savior, and I won't hit you with this baseball bat." No matter how much I talk about free will, or wanting you to do the right thing, or knowing what's best for you, I'd still just be a bully with a baseball bat. "Do what I say or suffer" is coercion.
rogue4jc:
I used to choose to not believe God, and that the bible was false. I have since chosen to follow God. Realitically, here's what I say for those who are not certain about trusting in God, and following Him. Try God, and seriously pray for help in following Him, reading the bible, and going to church. If it doesn't work out, Satan will always take you back.
Tycho:
Well, if this is the case, I guess you have more control over your belief than me. I simply can't believe things just because I want them to be true. I can't turn my belief on and off at will. It'd be great if I could, but I'm simply not capable.
rogue4jc:
I'm sure I would have said the same thing. However, I don't think it a coincidence you're chatting with people about God.
Are you saying you no longer say these things? Are you saying that you can, in fact, turn your belief on or off at will? Try this for me: stop believing in God for 5 minutes, and instead believe in the flying spaghetti monster. Can you honestly tell me that you are capable of doing this?
As for why I chat with people about God, a very large portion of the US is made up of people with views similar to yours. People whose views seem very strange to me, but whose views radically affect their life, and the lives of people around them. I'm very curious to know why they believe what they do. I'd also like to know what makes more moderate christians believe what they do.
Tycho:
As for the "just try it" advice, that's how cults work, so I think I'll pass. I have been to church many, many times, and I've read the bible more than most christians, I'd guess. I can't "seriously" pray to a being I don't actually believe exists, though.
rogue4jc:
You can seriously pray. It's what many people have done when they hit their low point. You obviously haven't hit that point for a really radical about face. I'm still praying for you. I know that there is always hope.
Can you seriously pray to the flying spaghetti monster? This isn't a rhetorical question. Could you honestly, and sincerely pray to something you don't believe exists? I can say "Dear God, help me out," with my eyes closed and hands folded, but if I don't actually believe in God, is it really a prayer?
Another issue with the "just try it," idea: Are you willing to "just try" Islam for a little while? What about Hare Krishna? Heaven's Gate? Are you willing to just give them a chance? If you don't like it, God will always take you back, right? I'm guessing you're not willing to give these religions a try. Do you see how others might also be unwilling to give your religion a try as well?
rogue4jc:
People are going to die. Our bodies will only last for a number of decades, hopefully. Some may be called home sooner. Billy Graham has made an interesting point. So Do you believe in right and wrong? Is it wrong to abuse children? Should we expect God to judge them? I would think God should punish those people who chose to sin. Hitler should be judged for his sins.
Yes, I believe in right and wrong (though I believe they are not intrinsic, but rather are human constructions to help us survive together). Yes, I believe it's wrong to abuse children. Should God judge them? I assume you mean child abusers, and I would have no problem with God judging them. But I would have a problem with eternally torturing them for what they did. We don't even do that here on earth. Punishing people for doing wrong is fine by me. Eternally torturing them is not a just punishment, however. I agree that it'd be great if Hitler paid for all the wrong he did. However, what if Hitler right before he died, accept Jesus as his savior? Would you be happy to see Hitler in heaven, and the nicest, most charitable, moral, and just atheist in Hell for ever?
Tycho:
Again...why force a choice that last an eternity? If God is really doing everything He can keep people out of hell (and actually...since he can do anything, doesn't the fact that some people go to hell prove that He isn't doing everything he can to prevent it), why not give them a chance to change ther mind once they've seen hell? Why tell people who have seen the error of their ways too late, "well, you had your chance?"
rogue4jc:
Freewill, and letting them have their choice.
Tycho:
So you're saying that by giving people a chance to change their minds, you would take away their free will?
rogue4jc:
God gave several chances already. God gave us laws that would show us right and wrong. Then God gave us Jesus so that our sins were paid for in full. So I think you're actually saying that you want yet another chance, right?
Yes, I'm saying just that. And if an eternity of torture is on the line, I think you should be giving people every possible chance to avoid it. Two chances? Ten? A million? Yes, and more. If you're going to torture someone
for eternity there should be every opportunity to say, "okay, I messed up." Especially if you're supposed to make the choice without proof. It's not like people are actually deciding, "ya know, an eternity of torture doesn't actually sound so bad. I think I'll go with that." People don't decide not to accept Jesus, they just don't believe in him. They don't say, "No thanks Jesus, I'd rather not take your free gift." They simply don't believe that there is a gift to take. To punish someone for that with an eternity of torture, with no chance later chances to accept the gift once they realize it's there is absurd. Why in the world would you not want to give more chances?
rogue4jc:
Ok. That answer may be a bit biased considering that you would rather not accept Jesus, and do it on your own. However, God knows what He's doing, as He's perfect.
Again, It's not that I'd rather not accept Jesus. If I believed he exists, I'd be first in line to accept him. I'd love for the Jesus story to be true. But I just don't think it is.
rogue4jc:
I might have said that at one time too. I realize now it could have been for a variety of reasons, one of those reasons would have been because I didn't want to know Him.
I think perhaps you were a different sort of atheist than I am, then. I would like very much to know Him. I wish he were real. But I don't believe that he is.