Heath:
Quixotic:
glory
doxa
dox'-ah
glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literally or figuratively, objectively or subjectively): - dignity, glory (-ious), honour, praise, worship.
You need to look further at the official definition of this:
"the glorious condition of blessedness into which is appointed and promised that true Christians shall enter after their Saviour's return from heaven"
It is obvious by using "doxa" and by context that he is referring to the state of salvation one receives after resurrection.
I don't see this as obvious at all. Why isn't it referring to various levels of honor at the resurrection?
Can you give me the source of the "official definition".
Heath:
Quixotic:
salvation
sōtēria
so-tay-ree'-ah
(properly abstract) noun; rescue or safety (physically or morally): - deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.
Salvation is not quoted by Paul. That's a word we used for convenience, so that exact definition is irrelevant.
Actually, soteria is a word used by Paul in the second letter to the Corinthians.
I guess we've come to another point where we need a definition. What do you mean when you say different levels of salvation? Do you mean different levels of glory(doxa)? In which case, we need to come to a definition of "doxa". Please clarify.
quote:
Not sure if you read the entire context. It is clear that he is talking about the state of man after resurrection:
"So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."
It is clear from Paul that your level of salvation depends on your corruption or incorruption while on earth.
I don't agree that's clear. The context seems to be indicating that he's contrasting pre-resurrection with post-resurrection, not various levels of post-resurrection. The entire thing is in response to people's inability to picture their mortal bodies resurrected.
Heath:
Quixotic:
Most of this passage seems to be concerned about the work, not the reward, but the "reward" (also can be translated "pay") doesn't have any indication of a level of salvation.
If logic holds, then people who have greater works will have a greater reward, and those who don't, won't have a greater reward.
Ultimately, isn't it just plain logic and justice that someone like Moses might get a greater reward than someone like me or you? I'm not saying that you can't progress later to become better, but as far as the immediate reward and punishment is concerned, God would not be a just God if works were not rewarded, nor would he be an honest God if the Bible was lying about the rewards you reap.
God's logic is not ours. The wisdom of the world is not the wisdom of God. He has made it possible to serve justice and mercy. Jesus made is so that we do not get what we deserve, but instead get what He deserves. God's law of sewing and reaping is trumped by the law of grace. We get what we deserve as long as we hope in the law for salvation. We don't get what we deserve, and get what we don't deserve, when we hope in Christ for salvation.
Punishment was enacted, but Christ took it for us. If someone is fined for breaking the law, and someone else pays the fine, was justice not served? The law demands the fine, and the fine is paid. Justice.
If someone gives money to someone who hasn't earned it, is that unjust? Money is just when it is earned, and someone earned it. Justice.
Luk 15:11 And He said, A certain man had two sons.
Luk 15:12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that is coming to me. And he divided his living to them.
Luk 15:13 And not many days afterward, the younger son gathered all together and went away into a far country. And there he wasted his property, living dissolutely.
Luk 15:14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land. And he began to be in want.
Luk 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country. And he sent him into his fields to feed pigs.
Luk 15:16 And he was longing to fill his belly with the husks that the pigs ate, and no one gave to him.
Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father abound in loaves, and I perish with hunger!
Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, Father, I have sinned against Heaven and before you
Luk 15:19 and am no more worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.
Luk 15:20 And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him.
Luk 15:21 And the son said to him, Father, I have sinned against Heaven and before you, and am no more worthy to be called your son.
Luk 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring the best robe and put it on him. And put a ring on his hand and shoes on his feet.
Luk 15:23 And bring the fattened calf here and kill it. And let us eat and be merry,
Luk 15:24 for this my son was dead and is alive again, he was lost and is found. And they began to be merry.
Luk 15:25 And his elder son was in the field. And as he came and drew near the house, he heard music and dancing.
Luk 15:26 And he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant.
Luk 15:27 And he said to him, Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has received him safe and sound.
Luk 15:28 And he was angry and would not go in. Therefore his father came out and entreated him.
Luk 15:29 And answering he said to his father, Lo, these many years I have served you, neither did I transgress your commandment at any time. And yet you never gave me a kid so that I might make merry with my friends.
Luk 15:30 But when this son of yours came, who has devoured your living with harlots, you have killed for him the fattened calf.
Luk 15:31 And he said to him, Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours.
Luk 15:32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
The son's logic makes sense. He'll repent, and work as a hired hand, until he has worked his way into the father's good graces again. The father, however, immediately gives him a ring, shoes, and the best robe, and prepares a feast for him.
Mat 20:1 For the kingdom of Heaven is like a man, a housemaster, who went out early in the morning to hire laborers into his vineyard.
Mat 20:2 And when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
Mat 20:3 And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace.
Mat 20:4 And he said to them, You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you. And they went.
Mat 20:5 And he went out about the sixth and ninth hour and did likewise.
Mat 20:6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle, and said to them, Why do you stand here all day idle?
Mat 20:7 They said to him, Because no one has hired us. He said to them, You also go into the vineyard, and you shall receive whatever is right.
Mat 20:8 So when evening had come, the lord of the vineyard said to his steward, Call the laborers and pay them their wage, beginning from the last to the first.
Mat 20:9 And when they who were hired about the eleventh hour came, they each one received a denarius.
Mat 20:10 But when the first came, they supposed that they would received more; and they also each one received a denarius.
Mat 20:11 And receiving it they murmured against the master of the house,
Mat 20:12 saying, These last have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and heat of the day.
Mat 20:13 But he answered one of them and said, Friend, I do you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?
Mat 20:14 Take yours, and go; I will give to this last one the same as to you.
Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I want with my own? Is your eye evil because I am good?
quote:
I'm certainly not arguing that there is only one heaven. We have an indication that there are a number of heavens (2Co 12:2). I don't believe we are intended to "go to heaven". It seems clear from the Revelation of John that we are intended to live on the new Earth, just as we were created to live in the original Earth.
Interesting that you should say this. The LDS belief is that the earth will receive its "celestial glory" and become "heaven" on earth (i.e. the place with the glory of the sun mentioned by Paul), and so we will dwell here on the "new" earth, but it will be "heaven".
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This seems like a semantic difference, more than anything, unless you see something substantially different. It depends on how you define heaven. If heaven is the celestial city, then yes, we have a clear depiction of heaven uniting with earth.
Quix