RolePlay onLine RPoL Logo

, welcome to Community Chat:Religion

07:57, 25th April 2024 (GMT+0)

Marriage: A Good Thing?

Posted by HeathFor group 0
Heath
GM, 4288 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Wed 18 Mar 2009
at 22:28
  • msg #1

Marriage: A Good Thing?

A recent article showed that the unwed mother birth rate in the U.S. has recently climbed to 40%, the largest in history, along with the largest in history birthrate.

Here it is in its entirety (since news posts often get deleted):

quote:
US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

Remember the baby boom? No, not the one after World War II. More babies were born in the United States in 2007 than any other year in the nation's history — and a wedding band made increasingly little difference in the matter. The 4,317,119 births, reported by federal researchers Wednesday, topped a record first set in 1957 at the height of the baby boom.

Behind the number is both good and bad news. While it shows the U.S. population is more than replacing itself, a healthy trend, the teen birth rate was up for a second year in a row.

The birth rate rose slightly for women of all ages, and births to unwed mothers reached an all-time high of about 40 percent, continuing a trend that started years ago. More than three-quarters of these women were 20 or older.

For a variety of reasons, it's become more acceptable for women to have babies without a husband, said Duke University's S. Philip Morgan, a leading fertility researcher.

Even happy couples may be living together without getting married, experts say. And more women — especially those in their 30s and 40s — are choosing to have children despite their single status.

The new numbers suggest the second year of a baby boomlet, with U.S. fertility rates higher in every racial group, the highest among Hispanic women. On average, a U.S. woman has 2.1 babies in her lifetime. That's the "magic number" required for a population to replace itself.

Countries with much lower rates — such as Japan and Italy — face future labor shortages and eroding tax bases as they fail to reproduce enough to take care of their aging elders.

While the number of births in the U.S. reached nearly 4.3 million in 2006, mainly due to a larger population, especially a growing number of Hispanics, it's not clear the boomlet will last. Some experts think birth rates are already declining because of the economic recession that began in late 2007.

"I expect they'll go back down. The lowest birth rates recorded in the United States occurred during the Great Depression — and that was before modern contraception," said Dr. Carol Hogue, an Emory University professor of maternal and child health.

The 2007 statistical snapshot reflected a relatively good economy coupled with cultural trends that promoted childbirth, she and others noted.

Meanwhile, U.S. abortions dropped to their lowest levels in decades, according to other reports. Some have attributed the abortion decline to better use of contraceptives, but other experts have wondered if the rise in births might indicate a failure in proper use of contraceptives. Some earlier studies have shown declining availability of abortions.

Cultural attitudes may be a more likely explanation. Morgan noted the pregnancy of Bristol Palin, the unmarried teen daughter of former GOP vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin. The young woman had a baby boy in December, and plans for a wedding with the father, Levi Johnston, were scrapped.

"She's the poster child for what you do when you get pregnant now," Morgan said.

Teen women tend to follow what their older sisters do, so perhaps it's not surprising that teen births are going up just like births to older women, said Sarah Brown, the chief executive for the National Campaign to Prevent Teen and Unplanned Pregnancy.

Indeed, it's harder to understand why teen births had been declining for about 15 years before the recent uptick, she said. It may have been due to a concentrated effort to reduce teen births in the 1990s that has waned in recent years, she said.

The statistics are based on a review of most 2007 birth certificates by the National Center for Health Statistics, part of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The numbers also showed:

_Cesarean section deliveries continue to rise, now accounting for almost a third of all births. Health officials say that rate is much higher than is medically necessary. About 34 percent of births to black women were by C-section, more than any other racial group. But geographically, the percentages were highest in Puerto Rico, at 49 percent, and New Jersey, at 38 percent.

_The pre-term birth rate, for infants delivered at less than 37 weeks of pregnancy, declined slightly. It had been generally increasing since the early 1980s. Experts said they aren't sure why it went down.

_Among the states, Utah continued to have the highest birth rate and Vermont the lowest.

CDC officials noted that despite the record number of births, this increase is different from occurred in the 1950s, when a much smaller population of women were having nearly four children each, on average. That baby boom quickly transformed society, affecting everything from school construction to consumer culture.

Today, U.S. women are averaging 2.1 children each. That's the highest level since the early 1970s, but is a relatively small increase from the rate it had hovered at for more than 10 years and is hardly transforming.

"It's the tiniest of baby booms," said Morgan in agreement. "This is not an earthquake; it's a slight tremor."


DISCUSSION:  Is this good for us or a bad omen?  What are the causes?
This message was last edited by the GM at 22:29, Wed 18 Mar 2009.
Vexen
player, 340 posts
Wed 18 Mar 2009
at 23:29
  • msg #2

Re: Marriage: A Good Thing?

I'm not sure what this discussion is about, exactly. "Marriage: A Good Thing?" Is this about whether or not marriage is good in the first place? I think that would be a rather short discussion, as most people would have to agree that it is. Even those dissenters would probably be saying that it can be bad, rather than it's necessarily bad.

About the article and the problems it presents, however, I'd say this is a complicated situation that has many leading causes. As stated in the article, it's natural for births outside of marriage as well as teen births rates to rise during times of economic downturn, and we're in a pretty hefty one.

I've stated before that I feel this problem wasn't as bad when we had the traditional family model established, that is, man provides from the family, women stay and maintain the home and raise children. Not that I feel that way is perfect. Far from it, I abhor the mentality society had back then regarding the worth and value of women.

However, we're at an interesting time in American society where we have a sort of family and gender role crisis. We've almost entirely accepted that the old family roles and gender expectations aren't good for us. But, we haven't replaced them with anything, at least not in the large scale mindset. As a result, many people sort of "wing it" in regards to their relationships, which can cause a lot of conflict in a partnership/marriage when both members of it are expecting something different out of it. I would say, if this is correct, this is a result of a society and it's laws progressing faster than it's culture was ready for.

That isn't to say that the progressive attitudes are bad, not at all. I like to think of myself as a progressive thinker myself. But perhaps changing too quickly can lead to unintended consequences, even if the resulting changes are in fact what we want to eventually accomplish. I personally felt rather confused growing up as to what I'm supposed to be, as a woman. My family pushes me to have children, my peers push me towards a career, society tells me to be productive, religion tells me to get married, school tells me to remain a student, etc, etc. It's a lot different than a universal agreement that I'm supposed to be a mother and get married and start a family. Not saying either is more healthy than the other, but the former leads to people having to completely make up their own expectation for life and relationships, and sometimes, that simply means family may not be, in many cases, resulting to marriage, and may in fact be precluding to it, or deemed completely irrelevant.

Whether or not this is a good thing...I don't know. I think this makes it much more individually determined rather than what can be taken as a whole. Some of these modern relationships can be very healthy, and some of these may not be. But that's assuming that marriages are in fact healthy, when in many cases, many relationship experts can say they aren't.

I once read a study that reported that the family situation a child lives in isn't a very strong indicator of their success. What is, according to the results, was the feeling of love in the relationship, i.e., how loved that child felt. If that's true, which I think in a lot of cases it is, then perhaps we should focus less on the specifics of a family situation and just examine the child's particular feelings towards it. That may be a more accurate study of the worth of a family in terms of it's health and effects, rather than preconceived notions of how a family should be.
Tycho
GM, 2167 posts
Thu 19 Mar 2009
at 09:59
  • msg #3

Re: Marriage: A Good Thing?

I'm a little unsure about the question as well.  What, specifically, are you asking if we think it's a good thing?  Marriage?  Unwed marriage?  High numbers of births?

If we're talking about unwed pregnancies, in my opinion, the issue is less if the parents are married, and more if child is wanted.  An unwed couple that intentionally has a child doesn't seem like the same issue, to me, as a 16 year old girl that gets pregnant because she and her boyfriend didn't know how to use a condom.  In scandanavian countries children are more likely to be raised by their biological parents than are children in the US, even though marriage rates are much lower.  So, long story short, my view is that unwanted pregnancies are bad, but intended pregnancies to unwed mothers aren't necessarily bad.

On the issue of teen mothers, do people think it's possible that it could have anything to do with the rise of abstinence-only sex ed?  Studies have shown that such programs actually lead to higher teen pregnancy rates, because students get the impression that condoms and other contraception don't work at all, so don't use them.  I'm not actually sure how wide-spread such programs have been the last few years, though, so I don't know it'd be something that could cause a significant effect in the population at large.
katisara
GM, 3638 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Thu 19 Mar 2009
at 12:56
  • msg #4

Re: Marriage: A Good Thing?

I don't know about pregnancy, but I do believe STD rates have gone up as a result from abstinence-only programs. Most of the programs I've seen focused on (not) putting the yang in the yin, if you catch my drift, but don't focus so much on other aspects. Since teenagers are endless sources of creative yin/yang combinations, many of which will still spread disease, even a successful abstinence program will likely mark an increase in STDs.

Rather than abstinence programs, I think the money could be better spent in cold shower/willpower programs :P
Heath
GM, 4293 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Thu 19 Mar 2009
at 16:59
  • msg #5

Re: Marriage: A Good Thing?

The question is:

Is marriage good for individuals?

Is marriage the preferred state for those with children?

(There are apparently 60% of those between 20 and 24 who consciously go out and have children without getting married, and those who choose living together or something over marriage.)

I'm not trying to bring up the gay marriage thing again, but I will say this as an example:  I think it would be better for a child to be raised by two married gay adults than by a single mother; but I think it is more optimum for a child to be raised by a mother and a father who are married and provide both the male and female role models, as well as the support of two loving adults.

The other thing that sets me off is Octomom.  To have 6 children as a single mother (2 with special needs, as I recall), and then to consciously go out and have 8 more without any intention of getting married...and then to rely on the state to pick up the tab for the children...this cannot be healthy for the children and will ultimately be a big burden on society.

Vexen says most agree that marriage is a good thing.  That's what I'm wondering.  I always assumed that too, but statistics don't seem to support that long held assumption.
Tycho
GM, 2174 posts
Thu 19 Mar 2009
at 18:04
  • msg #6

Re: Marriage: A Good Thing?

Heath:
Is marriage good for individuals?

For many of them, sure.

Heath:
Is marriage the preferred state for those with children?

Preferred by whom?  Again, I think if two people are together, and committed to raising the child in a healthy, loving environment, that's what matters.  Marriage might encourage that, but it doesn't guarantee it.  It shouldn't be treated like a proxy for it.  The preferred state is two committed parents.  Marriage isn't quite the same, though they often coincide.

Heath:
(There are apparently 60% of those between 20 and 24 who consciously go out and have children without getting married, and those who choose living together or something over marriage.)

I'm not sure that's what stats showed.  Rather, 60% of people who had kids between 20 and 24 weren't married.  Might seem like a nitpick, but since many people between 20 and 24 don't have kids at all, it's a numerically very important one.

Heath:
I'm not trying to bring up the gay marriage thing again, but I will say this as an example:  I think it would be better for a child to be raised by two married gay adults than by a single mother; but I think it is more optimum for a child to be raised by a mother and a father who are married and provide both the male and female role models, as well as the support of two loving adults.

And it's probably better if they're rich, too. ;)

Heath:
The other thing that sets me off is Octomom.  To have 6 children as a single mother (2 with special needs, as I recall), and then to consciously go out and have 8 more without any intention of getting married...and then to rely on the state to pick up the tab for the children...this cannot be healthy for the children and will ultimately be a big burden on society.

Maybe her religion had some kind of crazy "be fruitful and multiply" order. ;)  More seriously, though, Octomom seems a bit crazy to me, but its not really my business.  I think what she did was a bad decision, but she probably thinks that my lack of kids is a bad decision.  In terms of people's bad decisions that are affecting my life these days, hers is pretty far down the list.

Heath:
Vexen says most agree that marriage is a good thing.  That's what I'm wondering.  I always assumed that too, but statistics don't seem to support that long held assumption.

I think interpreting people having kids out of wedlock as them not thinking marriage is good thing is reading too much into it.  The fact that I don't have a million dollars in my bank account doesn't mean I don't think it's a good idea to have a million dollars.  I would imagine many (though certainly not all) of the people having kids think marriage is a good idea...just perhaps not to the person they're currently with.  Others probably consider themselves more-or-less married (those cohabiting), and don't see a huge difference in making it "official."  Also, seeing something as "good" isn't the same a seeing it as "necessary."  I think many women in their late 30s who aren't married but decide to get pregnant anyway because they feel their running out of time would prefer that they had a husband, but don't want to risk missing their chance at motherhood by waiting for the right man.
katisara
GM, 3640 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Thu 19 Mar 2009
at 18:26
  • msg #7

Re: Marriage: A Good Thing?

Heath:
Is marriage good for individuals?


In the majority of cases? Probably not. A solid marriage requires an openness, honesty and selflessness that seems out of vogue these days.

quote:
Is marriage the preferred state for those with children?


I do think a committed, stable relationship between caretakers dedicated to the child's wellbeing is preferred. Marriage would fall into that category, but at this point I"m not going to say that marriage is the only situation that would create that preferred environment (i.e. - we can disprove specific cases, but it's difficult to prove one case is the only or best case.)

quote:
but I think it is more optimum for a child to be raised by a mother and a father who are married and provide both the male and female role models, as well as the support of two loving adults.


I think it would be better still for a group-marriage situation, or living with extended family. I'm a big believer in 'it takes a village', and while having a second person here has greatly increased my personal capabilities as a parent, but we have no local family or dependable friends, so it's just the two of us. As we have other family visit, or my oldest gets older, I've found it continues to act as a force multiplier. If I had another wife, or parents in the area, it would make a tremendous difference for us, in regards to our sanity, our parental abilities, our ability to deal with events, and just our general stability (right now if my wife went to the hospital, for instance, we'd be in a lot of trouble because I could either take care of her OR the kids, but not both).

quote:
The other thing that sets me off is Octomom.  To have 6 children as a single mother (2 with special needs, as I recall), and then to consciously go out and have 8 more without any intention of getting married...and then to rely on the state to pick up the tab for the children...this cannot be healthy for the children and will ultimately be a big burden on society.


I would agree, although I think she's a sick person. I'd blame a flaw in the welfare system, where she can spend money she doesn't have on such frivolities, and a doctor who ultimately engaged in unethical behavior, implanting her with so many fetuses he's putting them all (and the mother) at risk. I ultimately hold doctors at a higher level than crazy ladies off the street.
Heath
GM, 4299 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Thu 19 Mar 2009
at 19:09
  • msg #8

Re: Marriage: A Good Thing?

Tycho:
Preferred by whom?  Again, I think if two people are together, and committed to raising the child in a healthy, loving environment, that's what matters.  Marriage might encourage that, but it doesn't guarantee it.

Of course it doesn't guarantee it, but the point is if it's the preferred relationship for healthy families.

And it does have an actual effect.  Being married means you've committed yourself legally and shows a deeper level of commitment than two people just living with each other who can easily extract themselves from the relationship if it goes south.


quote:
Heath:
(There are apparently 60% of those between 20 and 24 who consciously go out and have children without getting married, and those who choose living together or something over marriage.)

I'm not sure that's what stats showed.  Rather, 60% of people who had kids between 20 and 24 weren't married.  Might seem like a nitpick, but since many people between 20 and 24 don't have kids at all, it's a numerically very important one. 

My bad on that one, but at least you know what I meant.  I heard that statistic on TV.  Now I don't recall exactly what the parameters were...and can't remember if it was 60% of the unwed mothers between 20 and 24 got pregnant on purpose without getting married or 60% weren't married.
quote:
Heath:
I'm not trying to bring up the gay marriage thing again, but I will say this as an example:  I think it would be better for a child to be raised by two married gay adults than by a single mother; but I think it is more optimum for a child to be raised by a mother and a father who are married and provide both the male and female role models, as well as the support of two loving adults.

And it's probably better if they're rich, too. ;)

Wealthy, yes.  But what is the definition of wealthy?  It is having the amount of wealth necessary to meet all your needs and expenditures and extra to invest (and technically, it would be through passive investments so you don't have to work, but with two parents, that factor would drop out).

quote:
More seriously, though, Octomom seems a bit crazy to me, but its not really my business.

See, that's sad to me.  It's your business in two ways:  1) These children have no choice in the matter, and they are innocent fellow citizens, and 2) our tax money will be paying for them.  The last I heard, the expected cost for her to effectively raise them is $115,000 PER MONTH!  And we'll be paying the tab for that...

quote:
I think what she did was a bad decision, but she probably thinks that my lack of kids is a bad decision.

That's not what she's said.  She said she just wanted to have another girl, and this was her way to get one.  Every time you hear her reasons why she's doing it, the reasons seem very selfish.  You could probably pull a bunch of quotes to that effect.  Selfish moms don't make for good moms.


quote:
The fact that I don't have a million dollars in my bank account doesn't mean I don't think it's a good idea to have a million dollars.  I would imagine many (though certainly not all) of the people having kids think marriage is a good idea...just perhaps not to the person they're currently with.

I think it goes without saying, however, that the respect for the institution of marriage has gone down in the last 30+ years, at least since the time of the institution of the no fault divorce laws and "free love."
Tycho
GM, 2179 posts
Thu 19 Mar 2009
at 19:33
  • msg #9

Re: Marriage: A Good Thing?

Heath:
And it does have an actual effect.  Being married means you've committed yourself legally and shows a deeper level of commitment than two people just living with each other who can easily extract themselves from the relationship if it goes south.

Is that a cause or an effect, in your opinion?  Does getting married cause you to be more committed, or do people get married because they've made more of a commitment, in your view?  Also, in this day and age, I'm not sure that it really does show a deeper level of commitment, based on the rate of divorce (which is perhaps your point).

quote:
More seriously, though, Octomom seems a bit crazy to me, but its not really my business.

Heath:
See, that's sad to me.  It's your business in two ways:  1) These children have no choice in the matter, and they are innocent fellow citizens,

Nobody's children have a choice in the matter, though.  That's nothing special about these kids.  I might think people who indoctrinate their kids with religion from an early age are harming my innocent fellow citizens, but I don't feel I have any right to stop them from doing it.  And to be honest, having lots of kids doesn't seem like the worst form of child abuse out there these days.

Heath:
and 2) our tax money will be paying for them.  The last I heard, the expected cost for her to effectively raise them is $115,000 PER MONTH!  And we'll be paying the tab for that...

And like I said, compared to all the other things my tax dollars are paying for that I don't like, this is way down on the list of things that get me upset.  compared to $12 billion per month for the iraq war, I just can't get all that worked up about something like that.  Compared to other places my tax dollars are going, this is neither that big, nor that offensive.

Heath:
I think it goes without saying, however, that the respect for the institution of marriage has gone down in the last 30+ years, at least since the time of the institution of the no fault divorce laws and "free love."

Yeah, I won't disagree with you there.
Heath
GM, 4300 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Thu 19 Mar 2009
at 20:57
  • msg #10

Re: Marriage: A Good Thing?

Tycho:
Is that a cause or an effect, in your opinion?  Does getting married cause you to be more committed, or do people get married because they've made more of a commitment, in your view?  Also, in this day and age, I'm not sure that it really does show a deeper level of commitment, based on the rate of divorce (which is perhaps your point).

Yes, being married causes you to be more committed.  It is harder to break up, there are legal ramifications, so it is more galvanizing in helping you work out differences and problems instead of just breaking up.  Absolutely.

As for the level at marriage, it's hard to say.  Of course, people who are willing to go that extra step and the entire process of marriage are certainly demonstrating a certain level of commitment, but that's a case by case thing.

quote:
Nobody's children have a choice in the matter, though.  That's nothing special about these kids.

I see what you're saying, but it's not her specifically I'm talking about.  She's a very prominent and exaggerated display of what is going on all over America.  It's what she stands for that I'm really talking about, and all the kids across the country in similar situations.

quote:
  I might think people who indoctrinate their kids with religion from an early age are harming my innocent fellow citizens, but I don't feel I have any right to stop them from doing it.

First, that would be opinion, and not a reasonably sufficient harm in any case.  This woman, for example, already had one of her kids walk off and get lost for hours because she wasn't watching, and now she has 8 more.  In any case, she's being investigated by CPS, so that should tell you something.  And they certainly aren't any better off for being poor, on welfare, with no father and 13 siblings...hard to argue against that, I think.

quote:
And like I said, compared to all the other things my tax dollars are paying for that I don't like, this is way down on the list of things that get me upset.  compared to $12 billion per month for the iraq war, I just can't get all that worked up about something like that.

(Notice how I trust your statistic without requiring backup and derail this topic, even though the number fluctuates and $12 billion is just the 2008 number, and it was cheaper during different times.)

I quickly looked up welfare costs.  I didn't find the latest stats, just up to 1995, but over 20% of our gross domestic product was spent on social welfare programs.  That was over $1.5 trillion in 1995 and is probably much higher now.

So:
Cost for the war: about $12 billion per month
Cost for welfare programs:  well over $125 billion per month

So it is not fair to use the cost of the war as the concern.  If money is your concern, welfare programs cost 10 times as much as the war each month, so under the standard you stated, you should be much more concerned about the welfare programs.

quote:
  Compared to other places my tax dollars are going, this is neither that big, nor that offensive. 

Hmmm....see my comment above.  Not big???
Vexen
player, 343 posts
Thu 19 Mar 2009
at 23:23
  • msg #11

Re: Marriage: A Good Thing?

Yes, I did say that most of us would consider marriage as a possible good thing. I myself don't consider it inherently good, but it certainly can be a positive and healthy experience, for adults and children alike.

I would say many have addressed the issue well enough in this regard. It's not necessarily that more people are considering marriage bad (although, I've met some who never want to be married, though to be fair, those that say that usually also don't want a long term romantic relationship of any kind, nor children). But just because they don't consider it bad doesn't mean that they are going to get themselves into one. Finding the right person can be a long, difficult process. And some people just aren't that successful at it.

I myself ascribe to a similar attitude to what Tycho is talking about. Marriage itself isn't all that important to me. I'm like most girls in that I could dream up a wonderful marriage ceremony and arrange it to put on a perfect display of romanticism, for us to declare our love and commitment before our dearest friends and relatives. But, frankly...it's costly. Very costly. The typical wedding ceremony is thousands of dollars. And my profession isn't going to allow me tons of disposable income. Divorce is typically more expensive. Marriage isn't cheap financially, and it can incur some very hefty penalties and legal complications if you're not careful, not to mention allowing control of my children with someone I may no longer trust.

And all this for what, exactly? I'm not exactly a religious person. Maybe that'll change with time, but at the moment, I'm not. So the sanctity appeal doesn't do much for me. It's a ceremony and a document that confers certain legal ramifications, some good, some bad. How will that change a relationship into a more virtuous one? If this relationship is going to work, it's foundation and stability has already been formed before ever entering the marriage, and if it was already shaky, said state alone will not fix it. That's still up to us. So if I never marry, I'm okay with that.

Does that mean I dislike marriage? You could say so, but no, I don't feel it does. Just perhaps that I don't feel that it's necessary. Not that I don't believe in a committed monogamous heterosexual relationship (as marriage is currently defined). I'm a straight woman who can't see herself dating multiple men at the same time, or many men period, for that matter. I believe that a monogamous relationship can work, and I do believe that it does take compromise and commitment to do so. But I'm a very cautious woman who won't just take anyone. I take things slow, and prefer to pace things, in order to not jump into things I'm not ready for. And I take my commitments very seriously. I've been surrounded by unhealthy relationships and marriages all my life, even the ones that stay together are relationships I don't want to find myself in. So, yes, I'm very careful about my approach, and I don't want to commit the same mistakes my female role models did.

Do I not respect marriage? Oh, to the contrary, I respect it very highly, so much that I'm not going to marry anyone unless I seriously think that I can be with that person for the rest of my life. If I have serious doubts about a person, no matter how much I like them, I'm not going into it. The costs are too great, and the gamble not favorable. And if that means I'm going to start a family well before I ever marry, or even never marry at all, that's well enough for me. I don't think happiness is contingent on becoming someone's wife. I could be the strange one for feeling that way, but I get the feeling that my experience is not all that unique.

I think it's unfair to say that the modern population doesn't value honesty, communication, or openness, at least to any degree that the prior generations did. One doesn't need any of those things, honestly, to have a lasting marriage. To have a happy one, likely, but it seems like marriage advocates seem to equate long-lasting with healthy and loving, when history has shown that's simply not true. The idea of romance becoming marriage is very much a new tradition in the history of mankind, and in fact, it was a common saying that existed for hundreds of years, even here in the west, that romance and marriage were incompatible. The old-school thought on marriage was that the commitment came first, and love came later, learning to love someone after a long period of time after marriage rather than before it. It was important to stay together, and your feelings were secondary to that commitment. This was marriage for thousands of years, and during that time, marriage rates were very high, and divorce very low. In fact, they were probably better with that philosophy of marriage than any point since, by large. But, is that the model of marriage you would advocate?
This message was last edited by the player at 23:36, Thu 19 Mar 2009.
Heath
GM, 4302 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Thu 19 Mar 2009
at 23:35
  • msg #12

Re: Marriage: A Good Thing?

quote:
I think it's unfair to say that the modern population doesn't value honesty, commitment, or openness, at least to any degree that the prior generations did. One doesn't need any of those things, honestly, to have a lasting marriage. To have a happy one, likely, but it seems like marriage advocates seem to equate long-lasting with healthy and loving, when history has shown that's simply not true.

I don't think this is an accurate portrayal of the marriage advocates.  The position is (1) if you commit to it fully through marriage, you need to work on it even if there are bad times (and there are bad times in every marriage) -- marriage is about working with a partner as much as, or more than, love, and (2) and this is critical, children need the stability of a marriage (and deserve it) to prevent many problems, from dropping out of school to happy relationships themselves as adults.

Most marriage advocates say if you don't have children (or they're grown), then divorce is a last option but an available one.  But not marrying at all means never really committing (not to mention the morality issues that come into play from a religious perspective for those who are religious).

In any case, the children are the number one concern for marriage advocates, and far more important than a "happy" marriage.
This message was last edited by the GM at 23:36, Thu 19 Mar 2009.
Vexen
player, 344 posts
Thu 19 Mar 2009
at 23:49
  • msg #13

Re: Marriage: A Good Thing?

Heath:
I don't think this is an accurate portrayal of the marriage advocates.  The position is (1) if you commit to it fully through marriage, you need to work on it even if there are bad times (and there are bad times in every marriage) -- marriage is about working with a partner as much as, or more than, love, and (2) and this is critical, children need the stability of a marriage (and deserve it) to prevent many problems, from dropping out of school to happy relationships themselves as adults.

Most marriage advocates say if you don't have children (or they're grown), then divorce is a last option but an available one.  But not marrying at all means never really committing (not to mention the morality issues that come into play from a religious perspective for those who are religious).

In any case, the children are the number one concern for marriage advocates, and far more important than a "happy" marriage.


And I respectfully disagree. This may be more what the marriage advocates are talking about, true enough, you know that side a little better than I do, but I think the premises are arguable.

Let me start with the second. There's a lot of evidense that goes to show that a marriage alone isn't healthy for children. If it's a lasting marriage full of bickering and spite the stays with together just for the children, statistically speaking, the children aren't particularly healthy in that relationship either. In fact, many relationship experts suggest that it's healthier for children, statistically speaking, to have a peaceful divorce rather than a marriage that neither party wants to be a part of anymore. Staying together for the children is very much the old-school way of though, but modern psychology doesn't seem to favor it well. There are a lot of delinquents that came from committed relationships.

Beyond that, I'd disagree with the assertion that not marrying is not committing. Isn't it possible for two people who are secular to commit to each other and not want to deal with the legal hassles of marriage, or not simply caring about the status of marriage?

And the first point seems to bring up another question I have about this whole deal. I may be reading this wrong, so correct me if I am, but do marriage advocates believe that commitment and communication are all that's needed to make a successful marriage? Is there no personality variant to the whole deal? Can any male be paired up with any female, and with enough commitment and communication, the marriage be successful? Is it not possible that some people just weren't meant to be together, and all divorce a result of failure to commit?

I'm not making a parody here. I'm genuinely curious, because it seems to be a heavy implication when traditional marriage advocates explain themselves.
This message was last edited by the player at 23:50, Thu 19 Mar 2009.
Heath
GM, 4305 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Fri 20 Mar 2009
at 00:11
  • msg #14

Re: Marriage: A Good Thing?

I think you misunderstand:  Children need a father and a mother, and PARENTS should make sure that they provide this by sacrificing their own selfish desires for their children.

Should every couple get married?  Absolutely not.  But there are some people who seriously should not even reproduce...

You're talking about the lowest common denominator; I'm talking about the ideal to aspire to.

___

And yes there is more commitment in marriage, because you've made a legal commitment as well as a commitment between each other.  To live up to all those commitments is the challenge.
Vexen
player, 347 posts
Fri 20 Mar 2009
at 00:57
  • msg #15

Re: Marriage: A Good Thing?

Children don't 'need' a father or mother figure. They 'need' a caretaker. Having a mother and father is ideal, probably, but it's not what they 'need'. Nor is the simple fact of having a father and a mother together mean that they have those role models. The traditional model of family often had a father figure that was rather absent and not heavily present in their children's lives. Yet, their parents were still married, and it was a committed relationship. Once again, I think it's an assumption that lasting marriages are of ideal quality, when I'm a little more skeptical about how often that's really the case.

I also don't think that divorce is always selfish. If you believe in modern psychology, for example, sometimes a peaceful divorce is more healthy for children than the strife that can be caused with a married couple that can't resolve their differences. Even if you don't buy that entirely, can't you then at least admit that some marriages can be ended with at least the intention of looking out for their children?

Likewise, I think sometimes marriage can be selfish. Some people are in love with the idea of marriage more than their spouses. Some people do pride themselves on the status of marriage as well. Some could want to use marriage as a weapon against their spouse, as a reason to stay together, even if the other person has fallen out of love. I don't agree with the assertion that adding repercussions for splitting up makes for a stronger commitment so much as it simply creates an aversion to end the marriage. I know of couples, for example that are still technically married but have been estranged for years and seeing new people. Even if they do stay together, it can create an atmosphere of being trapped, which can aggravate things, rather than help.

Again, I'm not trying to demonize marriage here. I'm just trying to show my view, that marriage isn't always a good thing, and that a lasting marriage isn't the same as a healthy marriage, for either the partners or the children. Maybe that does make me thinking about the lowest common denominator. Maybe that makes me skeptical and heartless. I'm not sure. But I don't think we should expect the ideal out of people. I think that's unfair to ourselves and to each other.
This message was last edited by the player at 00:59, Fri 20 Mar 2009.
TheMonk
player, 1 post
Fri 20 Mar 2009
at 00:59
  • msg #16

Re: Marriage: A Good Thing?

The ideal to aspire to is that parents are not necessary. Instead, society would be peaceful and individuals would guide children as necessary and support them as if the kids were their own.

We live in an imperfect world where marriage should, for the children, produce these ideals on a micro scale.
Grandmaster Cain
player, 93 posts
Fri 20 Mar 2009
at 02:56
  • msg #17

Re: Marriage: A Good Thing?

In most of the world, you're not raised by your parents.  You're raised by an extended family, consisting of aunts, uncles, grandparents, family friends, and respected village elders.  The thought that only two people can raise a family is considered absurd.

The thought that kids need, or even benefit from, a single mother and father figure is just silliness.  There's a saying: "It takes a village to raise a child."  We have enough healthy adults who were raised by single-parent families to prove that Ozzie and Harriet are a myth.
Sign In