Romans 13:1-7 (for those who don't care to crack the bible):

quote:
  Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. 2 So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. 3 For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. 4 The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. 5 So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience.

   6 Pay your taxes, too, for these same reasons. For government workers need to be paid. They are serving God in what they do. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: Pay your taxes and government fees to those who collect them, and give respect and honor to those who are in authority.


So you're living in Rwanda, having tea with your Tutsi friend. The police bang on your door. When you greet them, they say "you have a Tutsi man in your house. We demand you drag him out here so we can chop him up with machetes. I am a policeman and represent the official Rwandan government. Do this and no harm will come to you."

What do you do? The legal authority (apparently with the power of God) has told you to give up this man to be killed. Clearly you should comply?

I would agree with TitL, you must resist in this case.  But in doing so, I would say you are resisting the law, and in effect, are rebelling, not carrying out vigilante justice.  It would be right break the law and not hand over your friend.  It may even be right to stage a violent revolt against the government.  It would be wrong though, in my opinion, to go around killing your neighbors who had cooperated with the police and turned over their friends.  Your disagreement is not with them, but with the authorities they are following the laws of.

On a bit of a tangent: do people view this instruction in romans to be a blanket order to everyone everywhere, or a specific order to the church of rome in the first century AD?  If the former, I think katisara's example shows a problem with the order.  Was the rwandan government really placed there by God?  Was the third reich really placed in power by God?  Kim Jong Il, Sadam Hussein, etc?

Follow God's law, and then follow the government's law as well, unless that law goes against God's law.

Acts 5:29 typed:
29Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men!

...
That doesn't imply that they aren't in power by God. God can use good or bad to help us. So there can be bad laws, and good laws. We do not need to follow bad laws if God directed us to follow His laws. For example, if Nazi's were coming to our house, and we were helping some jews, we would not obey the Nazi's.

The roman government had plenty wrong with it, and yet people were told to submit to the authorities. Good or bad, we are still to submit to the authorities.
 

Okay, so you're saying that even evil governments are put into their positions of authority by God?  And that God puts evil governments into power because it helps us to do so?

Yea and no. This is getting lost in the translation. Think of it this way. God is in control, period. No matter what the government is, follow it unless it counters God's commands. Submit to the government's authority, but they are not above God's commands.

God is in control. That doesn't mean He is controlling our every move. So I would say God is not controlling in answer to your question. An example might be a CEO of a company who is in control, but does not control every management decision. He allows freedom within for others to make decisions, but ultimately, the CEO is in control. That doesn't mean he controls every action in the company.



Right, but ultimately God is more dependable than the government. In romans, we see that we can submit to authority, and live under their rules, unless those rules counter God's. You can depend on God regardless of what rules the authorities place on you, good or bad.



That's not written for farmer egyptian. That's written for everyone else who can learn from that. In other words, the Pharaoh was used in that manner so everyone can learn from what happened.

Now, in a more modern example, we can look at a country in Africa that is suffering under a bad government. The poeple who are suffering appear to be even more trusting and faithful in God. That's in comparison to those in USA and Canada who seem to take it for granted  what they have.

TitL, are you saying that every government that is in power, regardless of how good or bad they are, are in power because God wants them to be the ones in power?

Also, how can an omniscient, omnipotent being be in 'partial' control?  He knows the end result of any action He takes, or the end result of Him not taking action.  It seems like either He decides to exert some control knowing exactly what will be the result, or He intentionally decides not to exert control, knowing exactly what will be the result.  In both cases, He is choosing the outcome, either by acting or not acting.  Doesn't this seem to imply that every government action, good or bad, was either intentionally caused by God or intentionally allowed to happen by God?  To me, that seems like He is controlling.  Thoughts?

Also, you seem to have implied that God sometimes causes suffering, intentionally, to innocent people, and that's a good thing because it leads them to depend on Him more.  Is that what you meant, or am I misunderstanding you?

The poeple who are suffering appear to be even more trusting and faithful in God. That's in comparison to those in USA and Canada who seem to take it for granted  what they have.

Care to prove that statement?

No. I'm saying regardless of the government, God is in control. God allows bad actions and good actions. Regardless of the good or bad, God is in control.

That doesn't equate that God causes all the bad actions. No different than you allow your child to make bad choices. Your child did not do bad because you wanted them to, only that you allowed it.

I think that describes what I'm saying very well. God can allow or not allow as He sees fit. In the end, whatever happens, we will benefit from it. So it's not partial control. It's complete control. Regardless of what is going on, God has a plan.

I think that's a reasonable view of it. Depending on God is very good. Going through struggles makes us stronger.

You seem to be entirely comfortable with this description of God, TitL, which I find a bit surprising.  In my eyes, it seems to imply some negative things about Him.  Are you just assuming that whatever He does must be good, even if it looks bad, because it's God doing it?

You used the analogy of a CEO of a large company who allows his employees to handle some decision making.  If a CEO knows his employees are doing something wrong (say breaking a law to make extra money), and does nothing about it, would you say that CEO is responsible for the crime in anyway?  Can/should such a CEO be held accountable for allowing his employees to break the law?  I would think that you'd say the CEO in this situation bears some blame, and should be held accountable for allowing his employees to break the law.  Shouldn't the same thinking be applied to God, then?  If he knowingly allows things like the holocaust, doesn't He bear some responsibility for them?

You also say that it's good for God to cause people to suffer in order to make them depend on Him more.  But would you say the same of human?  If a human made another human suffer for no other reason than to make the sufferer more dependent on the pain-causer, I wouldn't think highly of that person.  Would you?

Right, but ultimately God is more dependable than the government. In romans, we see that we can submit to authority, and live under their rules, unless those rules counter God's. You can depend on God regardless of what rules the authorities place on you, good or bad.

That's not written for farmer egyptian. That's written for everyone else who can learn from that. In other words, the Pharaoh was used in that manner so everyone can learn from what happened.