After working on a project of my own, and going through several possible options I've been working on a system that does away with the classes in d20. basically Ive taken ideas from Big eyes small Mouth, and their point costs to create a way a player can select the Skill points, Feats, Talents at each level using character points, which all players receive at the same amount each level.

BUILD YOUR CLASS
d12 HD & Full BAB            5
d10 HD & Full BAB            4
d8 HD & 3/4 BAB              2
d6 HD & 1/2 BAB              0
Good Save                    2
Average Save                 1
Poor Save                    0
2 Skill Points               0
4 Skill Points               1
6 Skill Points               2
8 Skill Points               3
1/2 Caster Level no spells   0
1/2 Caster Level + spells    2
3/4 Caster Level + spells    4
full Caster Level + spells   6
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You get 9 points to build your class.

At every level you automatically gain a class talent or bonus feat.

I am interested a few points of feed back
1) have I missed anything obvious
2) possible adjustments to costs
3) any obvious points that could be exploited to create an 'Uber'
4) a specific problem is that I can not determine any pattern to how many class skills a character receives..of course I may just be missing the pattern altogether.I am considering simply doing away with class cross class skills since I am doing away with classes to begin with.
This message was last edited by the GM at 07:39, Sun 07 Oct 2018.

Excellent. A good mind is a terrible thing...

:P

I actually like this idea. I know that BESM d20 explored this idea along with several other not-so-well-known d20 offshoots.

But I've never seen it done in a fashion to my satisfaction.

1) Balance. The additional freedom has a drawback in that there is no automatically balanced growth for each level. There needs to be some "base growth" preset and everything else are just add-ons. What if someone just never chose to buy d4 HD and just simply had no hit points? Its silly but it can be done. What if a level 20 never put even 1 rank in Will saves?

2) UBER would be just spamming all the magical spells. Now without class spell list restriction, a spellcaster can just willy nilly choose a wizard's dimension door, mage armor, shield and fly, a cleric's cure serious wounds and shield of faith and a druid's wildshape and barkskin. At low levels (1-6th), they could have up to +16 AC just from their spells as well as the ability to heal themselves, fly and teleport away when they feel like it. I recommend adding in a spell advancement system much like feats have to follow. I explore two ways of doing this in my own homebrew ideas:
Spell Upgrades: link to a message in this game
Spell Prerequisites: link to a message in this game

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Also, rather than have fractions, you can just increase the point cost and point allotted to have whole numbers:

+1 to Fort, Ref, or Will Save                          2
+1 to  Base Attack Bonus                               6
+1 Defense Bonus                                       4
+1 Reputation Bonus                                    2
+1 Talent  ( prerequisits must be met)                 4
+1 Feat    ( Prerequisites must be met )               4
+2 base skill points                                   1
d4 Hit Dice                                            1
d6 Hit Dice                                            2
d8 Hit Dice                                            3
d10 Hit Dice                                           4
d12 Hit Dice                                           5

Example Build:
+1 to Ref Save                                         2
+1 to Will save                                        2
+1 Base attack bonus                                   6
+1d6 hit points                                        3
+1 feat                                                4
+6 skill points ( no int mod for simplicity)           3
                                                total 20

20 points per level instead of 10 but the same effect is achieved.
This message was last edited by the GM at 12:20, Wed 16 Apr 2014.

I think Arkrim has the right idea to double the cost of everything and double the amount of points since halves can be a real pain.

Since you are doing away with classes, but not levels, let level determine certain key factors to establish some balance:

BAB max = level
HD max = level
Skill Rank max = level + 3
and so on.

I did not see anything about Ability Points. Will they still be awarded one every 4 levels or will they be buyable with CP? This would be a major balance issue since Abilities fuel everything. Also, are players still earning a free feat every X levels?

I think a lot of issues can be remedied at character creation.

To address point #4 that you had characters could choose any four skills to take as "Favored" skills. These they learn ranks at a 1:1 ratio and everything else is 2:1. Additional Favored skills could be bought with CP (1 or 2) for those that want a plethora of skills at their disposal.

Players could be given 60 points in the beginning and buy their character into existence using the existing progression table as a base. At creation Attributes could be bought at a 1:1 ratio and afterwards it could be 5:1 if you want them to be able to buy them. Set a limit on starting maxes to 18 adjusted for race. Starting money could also be purchased with CP with a limit on how much they can have and restrict access to certain non-standard equipment as normal.

From what Arkrim said in point #1 for Balance there could be an established growth that happens regardless of whether a player spends points on them or not. Base saves could all go up by 1 every 4 levels, so even at 20 a character would have a +5 without any other modifiers. It isn't much, but better than zero. You could do something similar with BAB in that they earn +1 every 5 levels or so. Again, it isn't much, but it allows characters to not have to invest in BAB every level and expand a little since it has the highest cost on the table thus far.

Which brings me to (former) class abilities like Barbarian Rage and Turn Undead, etc.. These could be buyable with CP at a set amount based on the usefulness of the ability. This would include spellcasting divided into the appropriate types: Arcane, Divine, Wild, etc.. Players could buy access to these types and then within have to learn a certain number of spells at their highest casting level in order to access the next level of spells. This would prevent the aforementioned Dimension Dooring Flying Healing Barkskinned wonder from spawning at the start of the game.

In reply to MadAlpaca (msg # 3):

+1 ability score should equal 6 points since in d20 games +1 BAB is equivalent to +1 score according to the epic players handbook. Note that +1 BAB is not the same as +1 attack (it is much better).

Okay, so step 1: BASE PROGRESSION

d4, low BAB, low FORT, low REFL, low WILL, no Caster Level

d4 = 1 point per level
low BAB = 6 points every other level (or 3 per level)
low FORT = 2 points every 3rd level (or 1.5 per level)
low REFL = 2 points every 3rd level (or 1.5 per level)
low WILL = 2 points every 3rd level (or 1.5 per level)
+1 ability score every 4th level = 6 points every 4 levels (or 1.5 per level)
+2 skill points = 1 point per level
------------
total = 11 points per level
So just: 20-11 = 9 points per level

@ 1st level you can improve your class progression by spending your 9 points.
Whatever you are left over with, that is the number of points you get to spend on buying class features at every level.

Build @ Character Creation:
HD: d4=0 points, d6=1 points, d8=2 points, d10=3 points, d12=4 points
BAB: low= 0 points, Average=1.5 points, Good: 3 points
Good save: 1.5 points each
Skill points: 4=1 point, 6=2 points, 8=3 points
Spells: low=2 points, medium=4 points, high=6 points

A "maxed out class" with all good saves, d12 HD, good BAB and high skill points would cost 14.5 points so that is impossible.

----------------

However, none of this takes into account the following:
-Free feat at 1st and every 3rd level
-Existing class features costs
-Proficiency feats at 1st level
-Class features that grow with level

Not sure where to start with addressing these.

adjusting the point costs to a whole number seems like a good idea


Balanced growth...
I have experimented with several base score, and save, schemes. I haven't quite got them tweaked to satisfaction yet...but it will give a slight increase across the board in skill points saves, and Heath/hit points.

from what is posted I may go with Low advancement s the standard :"everyone gets it" level of advancement.

Automatic BAB: I had disabled that as a general rule since I also planning to use skill based combat rules... BAB = ranks in skill.. Limit level+3. I am thinking perhaps a  Low BAB advancement as a standard across the board improvement.

I had also planned to implement the free feat at third, and free stat point at fourth as a standard everyone gets it benifit

 6pt per +1 stat cost looks good, to me. it mkes improving a stat a major investment of points/effort for the player.