animal handling is for beasties with beast intelligence IIRC. Kobolds are too smart fro that. Then again, creative use of the carot and stick paradigm should work.

I just rolled an 18 for persuasion on them, hopefully that'll do.  IMO there should be a command skill that uses neither the carrot of persuasion nor the stick of intimidation, but is useful for motivating people who don't know otherwise what to do.

In reply to Abighail (msg # 549):

That IS Persuasion. Carrot is Bribery.

I would think that bribery requires a transaction, while persuasion can be won through good argumentation alone.  But the command skill I'm thinking of doesn't even require the argument, it's just motivation through personal influence alone.

In reply to Abighail (msg # 551):

Well, yes. Carrot is an offer of a reward. A bribe. Not necessarily cash, or even goods, but something.

Persuasion IS personal influence, or what passes for it in 5E. It's a conglomeration of several skills from 3.5e, such as diplomacy, fast talk, haggle, etc.  Most 5e skills are.

The old Leadership, however, was a bit more complex than anything that I can find in the current system allows for.

Which one gives skills in training  and instruction then?

 Training someone, if I had to guess, would require some sort of intelligence check/save(?) plus proficiency. Hard to teach someone to do something you cannot do yourself.

In reply to Librand Silver-Eyes (msg # 554):

Maybe wisdom. They way both are used in D&D, it could go either way. Insight would let you know if you're getting through to a student or if you needed to try a  different tack.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:06, Mon 16 Nov 2015.

Animal handling still sounds like the best one to train anything.

nah. I've raised a kid and a few critters. The critters were far easier. And they stay off Facebook.

I guess animal handling is a waste of a skill then. I'll ammend my character sheet accordingly then.

In reply to Ghorgath (msg # 558):

Or buy a mastiff or a horse.

It's not any more a waste than Persuasion, Intimidate or any other skill. It's only a "waste" when you try to use it in situations where the skill doesn't apply or if you took proficiency in it for the sole purpose of doing something that it doesn't. Trying to train Kobolds with Animal Handling is like trying to climb a rope using Sleight of Hand. Wrong skill, wrong time. Sure, both Sleight of Hand and Athletics are physical kinds of activities, but that's about as far as the similarity goes. It doesn't make Sleight of Hand worthless because you can't climb ropes with it.

In reply to Gharuk (msg # 560):

I would most definitely agree. It would be like saying Arcana is a terrible skill since you can't push open a door with it.

No, I think it's like saying you can't use persuasion to get a better price at a market. Animal handling would have skill focuses of training, instruction, obedience etc.

Okay another way of doing this is which skill is closer, animal handling or.....

Are you seriously confused or complaining about the fact that Animal handling can only be used on Animals?

I hate to be rude or blunt, but it needs to be addressed.

Fyi, I'm probably not going to be able to post tomorrow.  Picked up an extra shift.

In reply to Faire (msg # 563):

I have to agree. lol At first this was an interesting exchange of ideas, but seriously, how is it confusing that Handle Animal is for animals?

Then again, I think the problem is in the wording. You train dogs, horses, other such animals without higher brain functions. What it sounds like you're trying accomplish is to educate the Kobolds. They're still receiving training, but not in the "Sit, Speak, Stay" kind of way.

There is no other instruction skill that comes as close.

I was trying to do something creative and different. But instead I'll just gear my character to killing things with a pointy stick.

quoted for extra LOL.

Animal handling is potentially the most useful skill for low levels, particularly if you get a pack of attack hounds. More than one of my characters was guilty of that. Also, horses are deadly in combat.
This message was last edited by the GM at 08:29, Mon 16 Nov 2015.

In reply to Ghorgath (msg # 567):

So do something different. Don't have a hissy fit and go to an extreme b/c players are suggesting that Animal Handling isn't for training Kobolds. After all, the DM has yet to weigh in on that discussion. You would think that would be his call, not ours.

But hey, do what'cha wanna do.

Gorg, Animal Handling is a great skill. You can get a puppy for a few coppers (or often enough 'Oh god yes please take one, we are drowning in puppies', train it up yourself and you have a War or Guard dog. Or two. Or three. Extra biteitude!

The kind of training you're talking about doesn't require a skill test or single skill proficiency. In terms of time-scale, it's so far beyond even an extended or long test that making a check is just not a factor. In terms of actual skill proficiencies, it would likely involve a great many skill tests of different types; Intimidation for discipline, Athletics for PT, Insight and Perception would also likely be involved and then there's the subject material you're trying to teach; History? Medicine? Survival? Combat skills are obviously covered by Class and Level. As a GM, I'd call it as a down-time activity like crafting an item.

As for the utility of Animal Handling; it's every social skill rolled into one...except only for animals. Want to determine what horse might do next? Don't roll Insight, roll Animal Handling. Want to calm an angry wolf? Don't roll Persuasion, roll Animal Handling. Want to front up to a grizzly bear and get it to back down? Don't roll Intimidate, roll Animal Handling. Yes, there's an element of training animals in the skill, but that's not what the skill will actually be used for; training an animal would again be a down-time activity that doesn't require a skill check (though as GM I might require proficiency in Animal Handling to train animals).

Thanks Gharuk, that was the explanation I was looking for. Cheers half orc brother.