It isn't the frequency of the posts, it is the content of the posts. Posting a sentence or two in response does not give us a lot to work with. With almost every post we have had to form a Facebook message trying to decipher what we are supposed to do next, or who even has a skill that might somehow be relevant. We followed your one prompt to try Carousing, Streetwise, or Research. Were we supposed to roll it each turn to try and get more clues?

It is hard to get into a story when you can only read a sentence every few days. I understand that it takes time to develop the story, but honestly it would be better to have even fewer posts if they were paragraphs in length. One liners are funny, but in PbP they do nothing but delay the progression of the whole story. All 5 of us have played multiple PbP games before in multiple genres on RPOL and other websites. Even when we had a mystery to solve, we at least had some prompting of what options we could take or how to make some progress to solve the mystery. It wasn't always a blatant OOC direction to make some roll, but the description was detailed enough that we could at least come up with an idea.

A large part of the problem is that we are using DF templates. They are not built for investigations. That isn't really the point of DF. If you compare the percentage of points spent on social investigation skills in DF to other GURPS series like Monster Hunters it is really obvious that DF is a hack-and-slash. Had we been informed going in that this was more Urban Investigation in a Fantasy setting, we would have built our characters in completely different ways. My character has a measly 2 points in Streetwise bringing him to skill 10, and just 1 point in Carousing for skill 13. That is not nearly enough to be proficient or helpful in any investigation. Almost all of his other skills would only be useful in a dungeon.

In reply to Espiri Skyblessed (msg # 5):

Yeah, I hear what you are saying, I think. There has been in many games a kind of tendency for combat orientated characters, and though GURPs is very good at building intrigue type campaigns, it is actually much harder to combine the two very different styles.

Combat focused games tend to have shorter more frequent posts that state only what you need to know to take the next swing, if that. Intrigue focused games tend to have entire paragraphs of information, more than the player need, though a lot of it is deliberately superfluous, forcing players to sift through the useless information for the vital clues. This seems to be the style you are used to.

But GURPs has another option...whereby players can pick a social skill and roll for gathering the information. Unlike many systems, there are actually a lot of social skills, and often several of them can be used to obtain what you want, depending on your strengths. This method requires more knowledge of the system by the players, and can take some getting used to, but can also work quite well.

The style used depends on the GM, but the Narrator, with about 9 or 10 active threads, would not be able to use the first verbose method for many threads, as it would be too time consuming for him. Hence he tends to the second variant.

Having said that, I bet Espiri could adopt a number of air spells to use in investigations. Such as Body of Air to slip in somewhere to eavesdrop, or stench to assist in intimidation. With more information into his spells, I bet I could come up with half a dozen other options, but they require using spells in unorthodox ways. Mages can be especially adaptable.

The issue is expectation. When you say DF, we expect DF. When you say Urban DF, we expect DF in an urban setting. According to DF, “investigation” is nothing more than (1) finding a quest and (2) getting useful info about the bad guys. There is nothing in DF describing a detailed investigation. We are not cops; we are adventurers.

Now, if you had told us up front that this was a Fantasy game using DF templates as a starting point, and that there would be a lot of urban investigation, our characters would look different, and we would be prepared for it. Less to complain about at that point.

And concerning story, trust me when I say I would forgo entire combats for the sake of a good story. I’ve done it several times. Giving a series of clues that lead to a perp is not what I would call “story.” There’s nothing about any of our characters that is personally invested in this quest. In fact, we had half a mind to find the perp and help him setup his contra-mate guild operation more effectively. Why would we care if someone wants to undercut the Mage Guild’s racketeering to drive up the price of Paut? Why not let free market reign?

So to say you’re trying to get us there with some story.... I’m gonna be honest and say it feels a lot more like meaningless filler.

Finally, when I had a concern, I came to you in PM, but you felt the need to rant about us to all your other players. Doesn’t really make any of us want to keep trying when you behave like that. You could have PMed our whole party, but instead you decide to throw us all under the bus. Not the best way to handle the situation.

In reply to Theadric Greenbottle (msg # 7):

It has been a while since I did the RTJ, but doesn't it state that it uses DF as the basis of the game? I don't know the details of your situation, and I am neither the GM nor about to drive a proverbial bus over you, but I was trying to point out the style the GM generally uses and why. With 9-10 threads, extended narratives such as I described above for each thread would be a lot to expect, yes?

I get the impression that you expected a much more narrative thread, whilst the Narrator posts more direct shorter posts. Did you guys read any of the existing threads before joining, that might have indicated his style?

I didn’t expect a more narrative thread. I expected Dungeon Fantasy. Short, snippy posts are fine if we are actually going on dungeon adventures. It was the GM who said he was trying to “get us there” via story. I was just pointing out that that is not what it looks like to any of us. If there had been an intriguing, engaging story handed to us, we would not mind at all being tossed into a more investigation-focused quest. We put together a joint backstory so the GM had some material to work with right, as far as pulling us all into the story right away, so we left that option open.

The fact that DF is stated as the basis for the game is the reason we expected a DF game. DF is in the name. DF is the basis. Yet this is really an urban fantasy game that happens to use DF templates, and basically little else. So I wouldn’t say DF-based. I’d say urban fantasy, with a lot of Actionesque investigation, and using DF-templates as a starting point.

I’m sure this game could be fun for people who know what to expect. But calling it DF is really confusing, and ultimately leads to failed expectations. If we had known this was not actual DF, we would have designed completely different characters, something actually useful for the setting. We are designed for dungeon delving, because that’s what following DF templates gets you, which has made us all feel useless and poorly built for the quest that got handed to us.

I understand how the social skills work, thank you. What I don't understand is using the default DF templates to make characters if there is a heavy emphasis on having to use social skills. As I said, my character has a total of 3 points in social skills. He is going to be useless in basically any social setting, and had I known that up front it would have been a much different build that largely ignores the template in terms of skill choices.

The second variant only works when the GM actually provides some type of idea as to which social skill would actually be useful to roll against.

I think you assumed my character is a Wizard. He isn't. He is a Swashbuckler built to the template in DF 1. Now he does have Magery 0 as a consequence of his racial template, but actually trying to learn and use spells would be a waste of time.

all my players are well rounded, with a good mix of social, investigative, & combat skills. but, i had to take a firm stance against templates, in order to achieve this, or my characters would suck, and i'd be ineffective, and unhappy like you sound.
This message was last edited by the player at 14:41, Wed 04 Apr 2018.

In reply to Chye Isuel (msg # 11):

That's nice but it's a waste of points in a game that is supposed to be primarily hack and slash, loot, upgrade, and repeat.

You're missing the point though. We're not opposed to well rounded characters it to stories that are light on combat and heavy on other elements like investigation. The game says DF so we optimized our characters and our backstory for a simple hack and slash. It's frustrating to have your expectations subverted like that; if we'd known we could've built things a lot different, a few of us probably would've played totally different characters to better fit the setting and play effectively.

There are two problems we have. The primary problem is expectation vs. reality. Because the game was described as an urban DF game we expected hack and slash without any 40 day journeys to the dungeon. Whether that means we use a dungeon directly under the city, or what isn't really relevant DF = hack n slash so we didn't put any or hardly any points in social skills as that is how DF templates are built. My character has 1 point in research and 0 in social skills.

The second problem we are running into is that we have 3 different people doing different things and we get back a 1 sentence response for one of those things. We don't expect a bunch of superfluous text and description, but enough in the text to know what our next step is and direction to go or skills to try. we are left scratching our heads after almost every post as we have no direction as to what we are supposed to do next with out hack n slash characters who are somehow now supposed to be ace investigators.

your guy's story about the paut isn't meaningless filler, though. the threads intertwine, and the outcomes of some, effect others. it takes some reading, but that's part of why i enjoy the  setting, too.

where's that haversack stromboli, fellow?
haven't seen him post in a month, it'll be tomorrow. probably lost him too.

Our complaints are less about whether there is actual story and more about how it comes across when we are set to expect DF because that is how the game is described but instead get urban fantasy investigation. I believe across 5 characters with 1250 points total we have less than 1% of our points in investigation skills. It is about expectation vs reality.

The complaint about story is that 1 sentence responses to multiple investigative skills does not feel like a story. Its like trying to have a conversation 1 sentence at a time but with days in between each sentence, the conversation goes no where. PbP needs more than single sentence responses to investigation roles, ESPECIALLY when the newly on-boarded players are expecting hack n slash with little to no investigation whatsoever.

Who told you guys this was a straight DF, no deviations from template, hack-n-slash game?

In reply to Jareth Mooncalled (msg # 17):

The FAQ:

If you stick to the templates you're going to be ill equipped to deal with anything else. Unless you were playing a Bard and really loaded up on background skills, but otherwise the templates are lacking for anything else.
This message had punctuation tweaked by the player at 18:33, Wed 04 Apr 2018.

In reply to Theadric Greenbottle (msg # 9):

I'm going to differ with your view... The GM didn't rant to all his Players ... he vented his considerable frustration. I now see you have a bunch as well.  This is a GURPS Game using a lot of DF (saves having to do a lot of work if you use templates etc.).

It is most definitely NOT a D&D game where you go room to room fighting whatever uglies the GM could think up.... where no one ever asks "What the hell is this Ogre Mage/Dragon/name your monster doing down here in a dungeon that has been sealed up and lost for XXX Years" in every room.

Regardless... we are where we are... I like your character ... he sounds fun to play. Perhaps the GM can allow you to make some adjustments to your characters to adapt to the somewhat different setting you have discovered.  Were I the GM, I'd limit that significantly, but putting more points in street wise and ditching a weapon/spell/perk or reducing your weapon skill from 22 might solve much of your issue.

None of us want to see you leave and waste the time and effort spent so far.  As for a weak thread task ... take a moment to think how many differing tasks he's had to create. I'd find it very hard to make everyone novel and complicated. Since I do play a mage in another thread, Paut is a significant thing in these threads. Wether you work for the other side or the Guild, I think you'll find it entertaining.

I have enjoyed it, as have others and I also GM a couple of other games, so I know what's entailed.

Lastly, perhaps you'd write up a small paragraph to better explain how You see this game environment. I chose not to join it twice, before deciding to give it a chance ... and ended up with a very demanding dominant co-player who wanted to be all powerful and direct the threads development to his benefit. Wasn't the best start, but I stuck with it and found it worth my time despite some of what can go wrong.  It's been several years now ... the GM has helped me, I've helped the GM (by taking characters other deserted in mid-adventure) and it has worked out quite decently.  I hope you will find that too.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:04, Wed 04 Apr 2018.

The GM:


On-template builds, including combos of Henchmen, are all designed for a standard DF, which is mainly hack-and-slash. DF uses social skills for exactly five things: (1) Finding a Quest (Dungeons, p. 4), (2) Finding a Sponser (ibid.), (3) Negotiation (i.e., with monsters in the dungeon, as an alternative to fighting them, ibid., p. 10), (4) Taunt and Bluster (i.e. against the monsters, ibid., p. 12), and (5) Getting a Good Price (i.e. selling the spoils, ibid., p. 14).

As you can see, none of these things has anything to do with police-work type investigation. The closest thing is Research to find info about the monsters....monsters that you already know about. Whereas our quest has literally nothing comparable to any of these things.

As I said, that would all be fine with us if we had been made aware that this was in fact NOT a DF game but rather an Urban Fantasy with investigation focus. Which, again, following the templates as the GM requested will not give you a well-rounded character for investigation stuff.

Did you read the rest of that post?  Specifically where it begins to rapidly go into 'and all this other stuff that isn't in DF'?

This was a big tip off for me:  "I am using GURPS Basic Characters, Campaigns, Fantasy,Banestorm, Magic, Thaumatology, Lo-Tech, Martial Arts, Zombies, Horror, some assorted 3e, and all 18 DF books."

Since all of that is far, far outside the DF remit.  I mean I'm not saying you're wrong, but between the FAQ and houserules I got the impression that "we're using DF" was for the relative ease of making characters for newbs and wasn't a hard-fast rule.  And I read some posts in some adventure threads and further refined my impression...

So I then asked and was told "Go ahead and free hand your character if you know what you're doing".  Of the four characters I'm playing only one is strict to the template (Stenet) because I didn't make him (it's a solid build though, no real complaints).  Jareth is a blend of Agent and Sage with some other stuff (DF 14 Psi) at 125 points.  Jednesa is so off template it's not funny† (Ogre + Brute from DF 15 + like 100 exp to get her to 250 points).  Ulo is real close to Wizard (if you slide some points from stats into spells).


† In fact calling her a Barbarian is insulting to the intelligence and skills of Barbarians.

[EDIT]
Also this line from the "DFRPG adjustments?" thread (link to a message in this game), first post:

"New charactets that follow templates are to follow the new version."

Now again, I'm not saying you're completely wrong (maybe gwythaint said "Follow the templates strictly", I don't know), but I am saying that this has really never been a strict DF or DFRPG game by any stretch of the imagination.
[/EDIT]



So, did y'all ask any questions when you rolled in and starting making characters?

I'm not trying to sound like an ass (despite how it sounds)... hmmm.

Maybe this is the question I'm trying to ask:  Who invited you here and gave you the impression it was a strict DF game?  Did gwythaint invite you guys here?

Because if so, then yeah, valid complaint.



I don't disagree.  I'm just trying to drill down to who told you this was a pure DF game.

Granted... I think gwythaint may have decided to go more DFRPG when that came out, so he may have decided to hew more to "make characters by template".  I'll have to go reread a thread now...  link to a message in this game


It isn't.  Your thread may have some of that as it's start... and the 'deal with the juggers' quest was heavy on the social (despite the two guys who took it on being light on the social skills) and a few others with some social stuff (maybe the Silver Jade Palace guys?  I don't know, I'm not followin y'all other there, sorry Chye, Chou, Ales, Iksander, and Aeris!), and the thread with the Bard was heavy social (go figure)...  but the majority of threads are very social skills light (and more inline with standard DF tropeness).

A few aren't even taking place in town, so I have no idea where someone would get "and we don't even need to trek across the wilderness for our quests".  The Shevnia crew might have some choice words about that topic...  ;)

(Not to mention Stalking Balar‡, Caravan to Al Menir, the Abandoned Abbey, and others... my point is roughly half the quests have left town (or in Stalking's case are talking about leaving the tavern to get around to leaving town...))
This message was last edited by the player at 21:16, Wed 04 Apr 2018.

That's completely false.  Every Template has a Social Skill†.  Every Template.


They might not be great at them, they might even be hidden away in their Background skills, but they are there.  Also every Template has non-combat skills for dealing with non-combat things.

Now, I will grant you the genre is 'hack and slash', so I can see having built hack and slash characters and then feeling a bit off when asked to not immediately go about hacking and slashing and having to use skills that might even be defaults... but... this game has never been pure hack and slash.  A minimal perusal of the quest threads will show that.

At which point one would ask the GM "Um, what's up with this game?"
This message was last edited by the player at 21:13, Wed 04 Apr 2018.

Okay, hang on.  I've now read y'all's thread.

So, like, let me get this straight, you're complaining about having to make three social rolls by characters that had decent (13+) social/research skills at the start of the adventure?

Or is it that you all wanted 'action' (read combat focused) and it was begining to look like a talky/politics romp?

In reply to Jareth Mooncalled (msg # 24):

Contacting the GM to discuss it was what started this whole OOC thread. We contacted trying to air our concerns with the direction the game was going vs what our expectations were as a DF based game, and he decided to take it into an OOC rather than respond to us directly in private. We aren't the ones who brought it into an OOC to make everyone fight about it, we tried to discuss it with him privately so that we could deal with it and continue on without causing any extra stress on everyone else playing or the GM.

We were looking for solutions and explanation as to whether our experiences thus far were what we should expect and if so we would need to probably rebuild our characters, if not build new ones.

Personally I feel the decision to not deal with the concerns in private was rather childish and petty. We bring up concerns in a private message so we can solve it and instead the GM goes and complains to everyone in an OOC that we have concerns.

I had no intentions of leaving unless the rest of my group wanted to, I merely wanted a better understanding of what to expect and to be able to rebuild my character a bit with a more social skill focus if that was what we should have expected but the manner in which this has been handled has turned me off and made me much more willing to just say its not worth the hassle if any private concerns we bring up are going to be handled so poorly. I play games and PbP adventures to relax and have fun with friends, not to deal with school yard drama.

Okay.  Can't say I've ever had these problems in the two-years I've been in gwythaint's games.

In reply to Jareth Mooncalled (msg # 26):

Congrats?

I honestly don't know why you responded. Our complaint is with the GM. Since he decided to post the complaint in the ooc I responded in the same venue. It would have been much better to resolve this via PM.

'Cause I'm nosy.

Yeah, All this seems to show a fair bit of misunderstanding and failure to communicate.

The GM has always been square to my knowledge, let's see if you all can start the dialogue over ... I think there has been enough information provided to give you a good idea of what this game offers. I expect you can adjust your characters fairly easily to be a better fit. There is combat, which can be ugly close to losing ... I haven't actually lost one yet, but I've seen the *Last Chance to pull us out* used twice now with some serious repercussions. Like the city block that was turned into a Crater.

Lets Everyone give everyone else a second chance.