In reply to Rethus (msg # 440):

Kind of starting to point to a Party V party here...

I really did LOL at your picture boss....  :)

In reply to Aegis (msg # 442):

As did I, for quite a few minutes! Sounds like the local news I am listening too...

In reply to Gareth (msg # 441):

Simply put, if your magical ally is only available on a 12 or less, where are they the rest of the time? If you have an ally who only shows up on a 9, then someone else does too. The question is who?

Was running around the OR today, and doing this: https://gwythaintny.wordpress....08/29/minicon-recap/

Be back tomorrow

In reply to Narrator (msg # 444):

Initially when I started this, I was running from a handful of pdf's and there was a lot of freeform characters. Lately, I have been trying to work with characters that do not diverge from template. I am good with a lot of blended templates and lenses, and I have approved exotic weapons because of little Sahud being in town. At this point, I am assuming most of us have at least DF1. If I am wrong, let me know. I have put off luxeries like gaming materials often because bills came first. I am graced by my SO's income, and not everyone has that. Hell, without her I would have to chose between buying food and keeping the fridge running, and I would be typing this in a library.
I am trying to run a game using a discrete set of rules within a larger toolset, and that subset has templates.
I like all of you, I admire your creativity. I want tpo play the same game with you together.

Personally I just liked plain old GURPS, but if everyone wants to play the half D&D DFRPG I can live with it.
I bought the boxed set sometime back, so I have the rules, just didn't care for the step backward.

the templates are hard for me to work with when creating, because they turn out lack-luster and cookie-cutter. it really blunts my enthusiasm, and it's hard to get into them. i also enjoy equipping my players in a customized fashion, and that is harder to do, since the templates actually tell you what equipment you have to use as well. lol it's like the socialism of gurps.
This message was last edited by the player at 00:35, Fri 30 Aug 2019.

The problem with "plain old GURPS", especially in a dungeon hack style game (which face it, Northport is one half dungeon hack and one half kitchen sink fantasy heartbreaker) is you can easily end with Characters who aren't capable of handling a combat¹... and that leads to its own set of problems.

You also end up with "one schtick wonders" that are completely incompetent outside of their one tiny niche²... which is another whole set of problems.

My preference³ is "hew 'closeish' to the template".  Like making a Martial Artist that wields a horsecutter, because that's bad-ass, but totally not on template.  Or a Scout with Lockpicking and Traps as a secondary Thief, the Swashbuckler/Holy Warrior mix, etc.


1 - Much like Jareth, who even if I piled another 125 points on him wouldn't be "combat" capable.

2 - Like Jednesa... though to be fair her niche is huge.  Almost as big as she is.

3 - My preference as a GM if I'm running DF.  My preference as a Player is clearly "take inspiration from Templates, but use them in name only".  But if we had to hew to them going forward, I'd be fine with it, as long as gwythaint agreed to lighten up on the social/town challenges, as DF Characters built to template aren't generally competent in those areas.




No they don't.  I mean, hate the templates all day long... but they don't dictate equipment.  At worst it's suggestive based on skills chosen (which if you follow a template is limited), but it isn't dictated.

I don't believe any of the characters I have made are one shot wonders... I believe Gwythaint can confirm that, if you doubt me. Even Jocelyn can do more than one things if need be. They aren't Swiss army knife characters, but they have abilities in several related realms.

Which templates did you use to be able to achieve that? Sure, certain DF templates lend themselves to being better at handling more than one niche (Bard is good at Social and combat with a splash of magic, and the innkeeper without magic), but for most of them, they fall short. Martial Artist is good at nothing but combat, and its not even the best at that. No survival skills, social skills, or thieving skills at any level that makes them useful and its skills and special skills are spread among all the attributes even though its highest score is DX (looking at you breaking blow and power blow).

Not saying it is impossible to cover all your bases, but you do have to lean outside most templates to achieve that.

True, none of my characters were Template characters... except the last, and he is a 75 point character who is pretty one dimensional.
Of Course at 75 points it is hard no to be.

Note, I said "tend to", not "automatically happens to everyone".  Also, the other advantage of Templates is 'niche protection', which has been further refined in DFRPG.





That's not true.  They fall short in social skills, yes.  Everyone of them except the Bard (and a few side templates like the Demonologist and Shaman) falls short in social skills.  But that's because each Template* does two things well, one thing poorly, and then not much else.


* Okay, except the Knight.  Knight are hyper-focused and do one thing really, really well, and not much else.



Untrue.  They are hands down the best at Dungeon Parkour.  Only the Thief rivals them, but as Thief lacks Jumping (and several esoteric abilities), this is where the Martial Artist really shines.  Getting into those hard-to-reach dungeon areas... and then getting killed alone, without back-up.


Which is Will and Chi Talent based, so pretty easy to buy up.


Yes, the Templates are built for 'Dungeon Hack'.  If you don't want to play 'old skool dungeon crawl fantasy' then DF really isn't for you (or your GM just has to understand this and allow flexibility in going off-Template - which gwythaint has been really relaxed about so far).

Swashbuckler is the parkour champ. can buy higher basic speed and basic move before any special abilities. And has power ups based on moving, can also have perfect balance out the gate.

A Martial artist can have a top move of:
BSPD 9 BM 10
BSPD 8 BM 11/16 (points on an ability)
BSPD 8 BM 9/18 (points on an ability)
BSPD 7 BM 10/20 (points on an ability)

while the swashbuckler can have
BSPD 10 BM 10
BSPD 9 BM 12

Scout can also have
BSPD 9 BM 9
BSPD 7 BM 13
BSPD 8 BM 12

In Mother Shevnia.. you not make template... template make YOU!

I'll admit it, I'm not a huge fan of templates either.  The main thing they're good for, IMO, is ensuring I don't just plain forget something important.  They also serve as nice "wish lists" -- in that there is always a bunch of stuff on them I won't have the points for, and can "wish I had" for the life of the character.

I'm with Oly, overall, in thinking DF is a step backward relative to vanilla GURPS.  Templates can be useful -- the "lens" variety especially, to ensure you don't build a cleric and forget the "Power Investiture" or some such -- but they're something of a strait jacket in terms of building a character to a concept.

The big thing they do is save the GM time and effort in character checking.  You can verify a character build against a template in less than half the time it takes to go through a free-form and weed out cheese and bonehead mistakes.  I'm pretty sure Gwythaint can use all the time savers he can find.  It also seems to me he's more of a "dungeon crawl" player than some of us, and that's fine.

I don't have time to GM the game I'd like to (one word, for those who recognize it: Carsultyal), so I'll play in the one(s) I can find.  This game has been good fun for four years, so far, and I don't have any plans to abandon it over templates.  I don't make characters often enough to make a big deal out of them.

For one trick ponies, that's the sort of thing you get when you lower point totals.  The fewer points you have, the fewer things your character can do well, or even with basic competency.  Those zero-point characters I experimented with (several years ago; it was in 3e, as I recall) didn't really do anything well, but they could do one thing well enough to get by, and occasionally a second above default.  Think primary skill at 11 or 12.

Then again, a first level D&D character has always sucked.  Even in 5th Ed., I recently had a warlock who had enough power to burn an enemy to the ground (at first level!) -- but combat hits required such high rolls that I almost never actually could (especially with only one spell slot between rests at that level).

<quote Ardenas Barehand>

The big thing they do is save the GM time and effort in character checking.  You can verify a character build against a template in less than half the time it takes to go through a free-form and weed out cheese and bonehead mistakes.  I'm pretty sure Gwythaint can use all the time savers he can find.

^good point^
especially with future constraints ahead.
This message was last edited by the player at 11:21, Fri 30 Aug 2019.

In reply to Svendegard Yurick (msg # 456):

My fat fingers turned this into a private post last night:


In reply to Hetilda Yurick (msg # 447):

The templates don't tell you what gear, I am holding on to DFRPG for Armor prices, and am willing to flex on a lot of non firearm weaponry- gust ask Nodwin about that damned Batleh he is hauling around. If you are building a character, pick a template to build from, especially combos from DF15 and we can work through things like disadvantages and background skills that fit better. There have been more than one that shucked off the requisite template skills to johnny-one-spell it, and then wind up drastically limited.
I like other barbarian  builds than the "must have disguise animals and animal mimicry because you Must have every skill that gets a bonus from the talent" I am more open to modding a template to ditch anachronistic and useless skills from it.
Yes the templates say "grab a skill from this category of weapon at 16, another at 14, and a couple of support unarmed combat skill at 12 and 11" but you can do things like bump up unarmed combat instead.
I do have a lot of issue with the sameness of a lot of the disads, and am open to alteration.

Period is important to me: the setting is late fourteenth century,  I can flex a little, but not to the 17th
This message was last edited by the GM at 12:00, Fri 30 Aug 2019.

Now, I have had some fun with a few off book disads;Johan Snow (who bought gladiator armor? No more Lorica Segmenta folks. Went out if fashion about 800 years ago) who took weirdness magnet and grew tentacles, was followed by moths and had a troll fall in love with him.
Ales has a rival enemy with low frequency. It has been fun inflicting someone on his group that has plot protection unless Ales kills him.
Christine... Now she is a piece of work. Initially I mistook her coitophobia for a female player using the X-card. Instead it was someone groping for points while looking to avoid the pitfalls of an Adult game (we are Mature here) and she got -4 to all rolls in a room full if erotic trill art. Let's not mention her evil twin...

In reply to Narrator (msg # 458):

One of the useful things about templates is disad points from rounding down fractional basic speed, and mild nerfing of will and per fir IQ based characters that aren't towers of will by template. It has minimal game effect (going from 14 to 12 per on someone with absent minded or oblivious really doesn't make much difference) and avoids the needless stacking of -5 disadvantages that don't fit your character concept.
Dropping basic speed can be bypassed simply by blowing a turn on Wait, which will get you to the first position after that. Plus most opponents are at 6.0 or worse (most guard types ate rounded diwn to 5)
Any time I start with the stubborn/overconfident/compulsive carousing/impulsive stack, I can't help thinking of my brother and his ADD. It is playable, and much better than liner/bad temper which means minimal communication in a text based game... The only way to get points for being in character is to post a lot of thinking.

I would like to see more templates with IQ 11-12 instead if the straight 10 for all of the combat types. Yes, born war leader boosts a fistful of IQ based skills, but could there be an easier build to let a combat weary fighter have decent levels of diplomacy, instead of following the Corbin Dallas school of negotiation?

We have seen how the bloodlust/impulsive combo can really wreck things, and if we were all face to face, that sixty day side trip to fry the bandits would have been resolved in twenty minutes.

And ending the rant,
If you are going off book, I need to see a little formatting in character submissions; (I also have some ADD as part of my collection of mental disads) and am usually using my phone.

Giving a point breakdown at the top helps me, as well as a reference point

Based loosely in guard template
att:60 Add:15 Dis:30 q:-5 sk:22 total: 62
St:12 [20] DX:11[20] IQ:10[0] HT:12 [20]
Hp:12 [0] per:10 [0] will:10 [0] fp:12 [0]
Bs:5.0 [-15] mv:5 dodge:9
 parry:10 block:10
Advantages:[15]
 [15] combat reflexes
Disads:[-30]
 (-15 reduced B.S.)
 [-5] compulsive carousing
 [-10] lazy
Q:[-5]
 -always late
 -disheveled
 -reeks of hemp
 -hungry
 -calls everyone dude
Skills:[22]
 Broadsword  DX/A [8] 13
 Shield DX/E [2]12
 Brawling DX/E [1] 11
 Wrestling DX/A [1] 10
 Knife DX/E [1] 11
 Crossbow DX/E [2] 12
 Armory: melee weapons IQ/A [1] 9
 Fastdraw: broadsword DX/E [1] 12*
 Carousing HT/E [2] 13
 Swimming HT/E [1] 12
 Surfing DX/A [1] 10

Equipment:
Cheap broadsword $210
Gambeson DR1 torso/groin/arms $78
Pot helm $225 DR 4
Boots DR2 $80
Cheap large knife $20
Medium shield $90
Crossbow $150
Quiver $20
20 bolts $40
Backpack $80
1 week rations $14
Rope, 10yds $5
10 torches $10
Pouch $20
Personal basics $5
Pipe $5
Sack of hemp $10
Total $997
Cash $3

(Math off on gear)
This message was last edited by the GM at 15:33, Fri 30 Aug 2019.

Moving "slightly" faster is not what I mean when I say "Dungeon Parkour".  Martial Artist has every movement skill except Swimming on it's Template as well as the special abilities/skills of Spider Climb*, Super Jump*, Light Walk, Cat Fall*, Perfect Balance*, Flexibility/Double Jointed...

The only thing the Martial Artist is missing from my personal list of "parkour skills"† is Escape and Urban Survival.  Which the Thief, the 'slow' dungeon parkourist, has (by 'slow' I mean he isn't leaping across chasms or running up walls, but anywhere the MA can get fast, the Thief can get slowly).


Every one can.  Eventually.  If they buy up DX and HT...  ;)

But yes, yes, Squishybocklers will always be the Basic Speed queens.



*  Spider CLimb is on the DFRPG Template, Super Jump, Catfall, and Perfect Balance are on the DF Template.  I allow my Players to use both Templates for special abilities... and to suggest Power-Ups from out of book if they are thematically appropriate.  For instance I had a Martial Artist who could Breathe Fire and summon Dragon Scales (temporary DR) as he studied Dragon Man Kung Fu.

†  Dungeon Parkour skills:  Acrobatics, Climbing, Escape, Hiking, Jumping, Running, Urban Survival.  For a City Parkour list I add Area Know (City).




TRUTH!




This is a fact... considering that Jednesa is a Barbarian in name only*.  She has no survival skills or Outdoorsman.  SHe's actually a city girl... if only she were allowed in the city again.


* And strength, toughness, Frazettaness, and propensity to accidentally level buildings.




Glad to know my obsession with formatting isn't a problem...  /thumbsup.jpg

yeah, i'll fix mine to look pretty, after everything is settled up.

In reply to Hetilda Yurick (msg # 462):

It makes it easier for me to read; it is how I write all of the NPCs if I am being Fancy I do
Attributes
Advantages
Disadvantages
Skills
Spells
Equipment
This message was last edited by the GM at 15:53, Fri 30 Aug 2019.

The template is a decent place to start a character built on more points. It, as other have said, gives you the basic bones of the character.
A 125 point template is a fine start for a 150 point character which you can then adjust.  Min-Maxing is unrealistic although I admit to having met one or two in real life.  One was a blonde who was all T&A and worked hard to keep in shape and keep the boys out of her panst (I think her Mom told her pregnancy ruins a girls figure).  She couldn't hold a conversation, had no other discernible skills but damn she looked good.

The other was a soldier forced into the Army under the MacNamara's 100,000 rules ... he had a GT (IQ) of 50 (Honest) and never got in trouble although he hung out with the dregs of society, most of whom were in big trouble all the time. He was too dumb to get in trouble. Not a bad kid really, but truly incapable of functioning on his own. Some of his buddies were damn smart, maybe not well educated, but smart ... pity they were all but impossible to get away from the back on the block skills that had worked for them up to then.  One Pvt had six whores and a Green Dodge Charger with that long fuzzy stuff glued all over the inside ... he hadn't had a pay check in like 6 months (can't get paid when you are AWOL) but had $800 in his shirt pocket when we finally nabbed him ... this back in the mid '70s when $800 was serious money.

Anyway, templates are a good tool, but don't work without thought and adaptation.

Well,shit. I just found out that they took the +1 to Basic Speed out of Combat Reflexes when 3e became 4e! I am 15 years late on that!