What do you suggest we do about that, Aoife?

In reply to Mancini (msg # 516):

Shave him and bath him! Cats dislike both!

In reply to Aoife (msg # 517):

Just to keep people in their own threads,
The temple hill crew has further business... on temple hill,
Much as in the same way, jareth and Nodwin and company  are also dealing with demon fighting, as are Mancini and the others who just provided the Hadereum with a wagon full of bodies.
There is a lot going on in Northport,  but some of it is for specific groups.

In reply to Narrator (msg # 518):

Also, while we hadd a discussion about this sort of thing a ways back (and sorry for keeping the demonic content high for those not fond of it) but this is free, and if wee need to buffer some topics, let me know. We did lose a player who irl had chronic fatigue syndrome because the constant evil runes draing FP was too much, and I was a bit of an asshat a few weeks ago in the way I was describing some villains.



https://www.drivethrurpg.com/p...35/Consent-in-Gaming

it's all good!

In reply to Chye Isuel (msg # 520):

Not having any problems here. I get that not everyone shares my point of view, and we all exist here together. Not making excuses for those that deliberately try to be offensive, but I have not seen very much of that here, and those that were offensive were soon...isolated. Most folk here seem pretty mature about it. I have lost one character in my game through similar things, presenting a situation that was challenging (which I like to do), but one character found it offensive and left.

I'll say this about that: I've got decades of experience in separating the game from life.  I'm very capable of taking offense, face to face, if (for instance) you demonstrate your ignorance and bigotry (and even then, I might not show it publicly); those things as in-game content in the voice of characters don't bother me at all.  I've seen few indications players here (or the GM) are ignorant bigots, and only one (no longer here) who seemed more interested in a form of bullying than in everyone having fun.

One or more of my characters might take offense for completely different things (or some of the same ones) -- a couple are (or were raised) Tripartite, for instance, and might become offended at blasphemy, especially if obviously intended as such (as opposed to common cursing).  Another is trying very hard to fit into his mother's native culture after growing up in Northport, and struggles often not to give offense within that culture.

For myself, I'm hard to offend, hard to shock, and hard to convince that something in-game should affect me out-of-game.  I don't, as far as I know, have any "triggers" that need to be avoided.  I have no trouble, however, staying within any reasonable set of boundaries for how the other players want and need to manage their comfort.

A classic example that had been iirc in WoD's Wraith, where they cooled the description on spiders for a player who had Arachnophobia. If I was gaming with my wife, there would be zero mention of waterbugs.

In reply to Narrator (msg # 523):

Be back after the weekend.

*Cool Ethnic Weapons and Armor* [GURPS Low-Tech Companion 2: Weapons and Warriors pg.16/40]
Thanks to hyperbolic descriptions by travelers, national
pride, and an echo chamber of inflated claims, a region or
culture’s trademark weapons or armor might be held in
special esteem, their reputation for effectiveness outstripping provable fact. The GM may wish to make some such
exaggerations true in his campaign. The simplest method is
to declare certain items fine quality at good-quality prices.
Very fine versions shouldn’t be any cheaper. Good and cheap
specimens ought to be rare – this stuff is cool, after all!
A more detailed approach is to invent “cool ethnic”
modifiers for such gear. These aren’t realistic! They typically apply to a specific class of equipment (e.g., fencing weapons, wavy-bladed swords and knives, or plate
armor) or to one particular item (e.g., katana or lorica
segmentata).
*Cool Ethnic Weapon: The weapon gets +1 to hit and to
damage, and has +1 HT and double HP relative to other
weapons of the same materials and weight. This is cumulative with all other quality, material, and weapon modifiers. The weapon is simply better. Cost is typically
unchanged, but such weapons may be in great demand!
Weight is unaffected.
*Cool Ethnic Armor: The armor gets +1 DR, weighs 20%
less, and has double HP relative to other armor of the same
materials and weight. Moreover, the wearer suffers no
extra fatigue penalties in hot weather. This armor modifier
can “stack” with others. Cost is unchanged.
can we take these as perks? they'd make great signature gear

In reply to Chye Isuel (msg # 525):

What will happen is that you hear of certain specialty Smith's in ethnic communities.
As it stands, cheap weapons abound amongst goblin Craftsmen, orcish weapons do -1 damage and give reaction-1, and if you were to go to Sahud, you would have a better chance of finding a fine Katana.

Southern Valdassya has heavy chain and plate that fits the bill for this.

I have noted that SJ Games has made both SORCERERs and now  INCANTERs very expensive to build, where you have to buy multiple levels of a 10 point advantage and then put quite a few levels of a skill in place as well. Compared to Magery, where 35 points is the Max, these other methods seem to be priced out of utility.
AmI missing something?
I am sorely tempted to alter the costs, making these roughly equal to standard magery at say 8 points a level and just the skill (no levels) to make something usable.  I am no D&D fan, but am quite impressed with the concept of cantrips ... The GM and I created a character using GURPS  that does something similar with about 12-14 low powered spells for a non-mage. A Hedge Mage sort of fellow whose basic craft is something wholly different but which is enhanced by his simple spells.

In reply to Johan Stark (msg # 527):

These are both versions of spells as powers, much like the magic bolt power. Cantrips might well be the broad list of spells available to those without magery. Magery,(along with power investiture, bardic talent, demonic or elemental attunement, and deathliness) by the way, can be bought to 6 levels, at 60-65 points.

Yes.  You're missing that they work nothing like Spells as Skills magic.  One is vastly more immediately potent (but far, far less versatile), the other vastly more versatile (but slower in general to cast).


I recommend taking this discussion to the GURPS forums at sjgames (http://forums.sjgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=13).  The posters (and GURPS authors and editors) there are far more qualified to answer your questions and give pointers than we are.

I mean the percentage chance you'll get Jason Levine, Christopher Rice, or Antoni Ten Monrós to pop into the thread and answer questions is infinitely greater.





Incantation is Effects Shaping, it's nothing like Spells as Powers.

I've been playing in a pair of D&D 5e campaigns recently (when it rains, it pours -- it still averages to one four hour session a week).  Cantrips are just minor spells that may be cast without expending resources (spell slots).  In plain GURPS Magic terms, these are spells where the skill discount (-1 fp cost at 15 skill, -2 at 20) makes the spell "free" to cast.

D&D cantrips used to be spells so trivial as to be mainly RP fodder -- things like "Clean" or "Dancing Lights" -- but in 5e, several fairly serious combat spells are listed as cantrips -- Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp, and Eldritch Blast, for instance -- direct damage dealers that let spellcasters mix it up without messing up the expectation of having limited castings per day (or between short rests for Warlocks).  Damage done is comparable to a blow from a sword or axe, casting time is "one action" so usable in combat, and spellcasters aren't a squishy as they were when I played D&D back in the 1970s and 1980s.

I've only skimmed GURPS Sorcery, haven't read the underlying works (Ritual Magic, Powers) in any detail, and don't really understand the ritual magic system, but at least in the one game I've played that included Powers (when 4th Ed. was new), it seemed very much as if Powers and Magic weren't intended to be used together, because they were poorly balanced against one another.

I like the idea of having multiple magic systems available (I'm a big fan of the Ethshar series by Lawrence Watt-Evans), but I've have to spend considerable time studying the "magic as powers" model before I'd be comfortable mixing them in the same campaign.

Thanks for the clarification re: incantation magic. I saw it as an attempt to install Vancian magic, kind of as reflected by Authentic Thaumatology, although I spoke to Christopher R.Rice, and he appeared to have built the system without consulting Bonewitz'book that is available from SJG.

As Ardenas says, any spell that costs 1fp at 15 is effectively a Cantrip, as is the power Magic Bolt, which requires Magery, and otherwise corresponds to Eldritch Bolt.
This message was last edited by the GM at 15:51, Mon 16 Sept 2019.

Except that Effective magery skill at 15 is A) expensive and B) not that of a limited magic user, rather it's a powerful user doing small magics.

I was thinking more along the lines of someone with magery 0 doing small things that cost him/her a point or two ... a knack, except not limited to two or three.  There are a fair number of spells that can be executed at magery 0, and if you limit them to mana costs of one or two at most, you get a character who can do simple magic carefully over time.  Mages are unlikely to notice such low powered spells, but the locals will be thrilled it you can  heal their ailing prize apple tree, fix the nasty cut their son got by accident cutting wood and keeping it from getting infected or soothing an agitated Stallion.
These may not make a great character but could make a very useful NPC... or mayhap your Soldier can also do a few useful small tasks like create light, heal small injuries and make a fire or water. Maybe he is a superb hunter, because he understands animals really well.

Well, let's see.  Magery 0 is 5, right?  Then you need to spend points to get skill to 15; for most spells (IQ Hard) skill is IQ - 2 + Magery.  So at Magery 0, you need either High IQ (expensive, but it boosts all IQ based skills) or to spend points on each spell to IQ+4 (20 points for almost all spells).  If you want more than 3-4 spells, you'd be ahead to bump IQ to 13 or 14 at least (60 points for IQ 14, then spells only need 8 points each to be at 15).

This is part of why you don't see many Magery 0 spellcasters.  Magery is LOTS cheaper than IQ (though it's only useful for magic and a very few related skills).  BTW, the 4e book actually allows Magery as high as level 5, though it notes that's up to your GM (3e had the Magery 3 limit).

Of course, if you don't mind your hedge wizard having to almost go into a dance to cast anything, and take extra time at it if he can, nothing says his base skill needs to be higher than 9 or 10.  He can still put extra points into the things that really need higher skill (and he might well put that 20 points noted above into something he makes his living with, like Purify Water or Mending), but in general, he's a wizard -- but not a very good one (didn't Oz the Great and Powerful say something like that after Dorothy got behind the curtain?).

Pretty much...  I understand the costs, although I personally have never built a mage with skill 20. I have run/do run several with skill 15.
But since you to have recent D&D 5e experience, you understand how attractive a few cantrips can be to a rogue or fighter.
My middle son is running a 5e game to appease my wife who sorely misses  our role playing sessions of old.
None of them will consider GURPS of any flavor "It's too complicated", "I'd have to but new books" etc.
Free GURPS Light is dismissed as too limited ;-) ... basically they don't want to have to learn something new.

RPM (Ritual Path Magic) has nothing to do with Sorcery.

The types of Magic currently in GURPS (TTBOMK):

Spells as Skills:  Vanilla Basic and Magic magic spells.

Spells as Powers:  Sorcery ala GURPS 4th Thaumatology Sorcery, and Chinese Elemental Powers ala GURPS 4th Thaumatology Chinese Elemental Powers.  These are both different, and yet the same.  They are same in that that is magic built using Advantages, different in that Elemental Powers is very much building the powers in themes but not under a singular all encompassing "Power Talent" where Sorcery is all wrapped under the Sorcery Talent.  Also while Elemental Power uses a variant of Alternative Abilities that work differently, Sorcery is all about the AA.

Ritual Magic:  This is further subdivided into two similar, radically different branches; Effects Shaping and Energy Accumulation.  Effects Shaping is the Path/Book system in GURPS 4th Thaumatology and Incantations from GURPS 4th Dungeon Fantasy 19 Incantation Magic.  They are virtually identical, Incantations is just more versatile and has more development.  Energy Accumulation is GURPS 4th Thaumatology Ritual Path Magic, and Jason Levine has since come to lament calling it that as people keep confusing it with Path/Book Ritual magic (which is why people are calling it Path/Book instead of Ritual Path like we used to).  The difference between RPM and Incantation/Path-Book magic are subtle and vast, as are their identical natures... and that's a terrible way to put, but the only simple way.  In a nutshell with RPM you figure out the ritual* and this tells you how much energy it will take to cast, at which point if you have the energy you roll to cast the ritual, otherwise you must accumulate the energy (hence Energy Accumulation).  This can be quick or very time consuming.  With Effect Shaping you figure out the ritual* and this tells you how long it will take to cast, you can adjust this time up or down based on taking skill penalties or bonuses, but that's it.  Both types can precast spells and "hang" them as charms or upon themselves (hence the Vancian feel of Incantation, and I got a very similar feel in a campaign I ran using RPM by making a small change to it's system).


The other types of magic (Alchemy, Runic, Syntactic, etc) are either minor variations of the above or just freeform.


* Which use, yet again, very similar but also different systems.


I really hate hearing "poorly balanced"...  It's kind of a meaningless statement.  Are they balanced against one another?  Ehhh... kinda?  They do different things in entirely different ways.  They can work fine together if the campaign takes into effect that the ways each system works is different and doesn't try to just "run" as though one is the right way and then expect the other work just as well.

For instance I ran a campaign using Spells as Powers and RPM, and it worked fine despite those being as far apart flavor and rules-wise as possible.


They're already used in this game.  Jocelyn has Magical Bolt which is pure "Spells as Powers". (At least I suspect she has that power).  Now, admittedly, for the most part, this campaign is using Spells as Skills for all casters, but the precedent is set.  And Jareth is slowly buying Psi powers, which are Spells as Powers under a different name and flavor.

It very much is, but only that it encourages precasting rituals as hung spells or charms (of which you can have only a limited number of) but still allowing for slow (slow for combat anyway) casting of rituals in the field if necessary.

In reply to Jareth Mooncalled (msg # 535):

It seems to be magic under a bunch of assumed names ... you have to build "power" instead of Mana... more time allows a safer casting...ooops, power usage.  A Rose is a Rose.  all the additional complexity is of no value or interest.   And Yes, Jocelyn has Magic Bolt.

In reply to Jocelyn Lemru (msg # 537):

But at the base level, magic bolt, 1d-3, does nothing half the time, and still expends a fp. The rest of the time it only does maximum 3 points of damage, minus armour, right?

It costs no FP and damage depends on the level you buy it up to.  Max listed damage is 2d-1, though, theoretically Elves could buy it up to 3d-1 (Magery 9).

In reply to Jareth Mooncalled (msg # 539):

Costs no fp? That does improve it, though you still need to spend quite a bit of cp to get it to reasonable levels.

Damage   Cost   Prerequisite
1d-3      5     Magery 1
1d-2     10     Magery 2
1d-1     20     Magery 3
1d       25     Magery 4
1d+1     35     Magery 5
2d-1     45     Magery 6

Ok, it ignores DR and insubstantiality and it takes just 1 round but to get any decent damage, you are looking at Magery 3 AND 20 cp. That could be 20 other spells that the average mage could cast at 15+ skill. Hit is automatic...if your Innate Attack (Missile) is 3+. Sounds generous but the real range is rarely going to be more than 70 yds (range penalty -9) for most mages with 12 DX...less if there are other penalties such as light involved.