Out of Character 8.   Posted by Narrator.Group: 0
Narrator
 GM, 6215 posts
 DM says
 roll for initiative!
Fri 19 Apr 2019
at 19:56
Out of Character 8
Here we go
Masugatan
 player, 244 posts
 street thug
Sat 20 Apr 2019
at 01:15
Out of Character 8
In Gurps DF, can you build Traps from Dex?
Chye Isuel
 player, 1457 posts
 Osu! Ora Chye Iseul!
 Dragon descended, Youxia
Sat 20 Apr 2019
at 01:35
Out of Character 8
In reply to Masugatan (msg # 2):
you could get lock picking at DX/A and get traps at a -3 from your lock picking skill.
Lock Picking 2 15 DX/A
Traps - 12 IQ/A for example, is how I did mine.
if you wanna build traps up through DX, increase your lock picking, as well.

This message was last edited by the player at 01:39, Sat 20 Apr.

Jareth Mooncalled
 player, 1636 posts
 Dirty High Elf Sage
 HP: 9/9 FP: 7/10
Sat 20 Apr 2019
at 04:31
Re: Out of Character 8
Masugatan:
In Gurps DF, can you build Traps from Dex?

Build?  Building Traps uses the same stat.  Setting a trap can default to DX in Basic (and DF).


In DFRPG for some reason Lockpicking is based on DX (probably to make it easier for Thieves) as is Traps*.

* Actually Traps use either IQ (setting), Per (spotting), or DX (disarming).



So we now need gwythaint to make a ruling on which ruleset we're using.
Ardenas Barehand
 player, 1191 posts
 Human martial artist with
 a few spells on the side.
Sat 20 Apr 2019
at 12:17
Re: Out of Character 8
Jareth, I'm pretty sure they were talking about "build" as in "character build" -- that is, basing Traps skill on DX instead of IQ.  Apparently DF offers that option with Lockpicking.

For myself, I don't think that would pass the reality check.  Yes, picking a lock can/could be learned based just on feel and finger agility, without any underlying knowledge of how locks work (though I'd probably limit that to TL3 to TL6 mechanical locks only, if I were GM; many modern lock designs absolutely require you to know how the lock works to have any chance of picking it open).

Setting or especially constructing traps, on the other hand, I'd have to say (in my opinion) is much more about knowledge, and can't be based just on muscle memory or manual dexterity.  You have to know how a trap works to construct it, whether it's a simple figure-4 trigger for a spring loop or deadfall, or something based on a pressure plate that releases a string of crossbows behind a wall at the other end of the room.
Jareth Mooncalled
 player, 1637 posts
 Dirty High Elf Sage
 HP: 9/9 FP: 7/10
Sat 20 Apr 2019
at 23:35
Re: Out of Character 8
Ardenas Barehand:
Apparently DF offers that option with Lockpicking.

DF uses the skills straight out of Basic.

DFRPG changes Lockpicking to be DX based.

quote:
For myself, I don't think that would pass the reality check.

DFRPG doesn't care about the reality sniff test, it cares about "is it good for the game".  Apparently Kromm decided Lockpicks based on DX was good for the game.  I, shockingly agree.  It sort of solves the "the Thieves niche is easily abused" problem that DF has.  It doesn't solve the "the Thief Template sucks in combat" problem that they both have.
Balir Ironhide
 player, 107 posts
 Dwarf
 Warrior
Sun 21 Apr 2019
at 05:31
Re: Out of Character 8
You mean the “high IQ characters can too easily adopt thief stuff” sort of thing?
Jareth Mooncalled
 player, 1638 posts
 Dirty High Elf Sage
 HP: 9/9 FP: 7/10
Sun 21 Apr 2019
at 13:52
Re: Out of Character 8
Balir Ironhide:
You mean the “high IQ characters can too easily adopt thief stuff” sort of thing?

Yeah.  How many groups have a Lockpicker-Trapspringer that isn't a Thief?  I bet every group that doesn't have an Oly* in it still has at least one or two Characters that can easily sub in for a Thief at lockpicking and traps.




* I'm pretty sure Oly is the only Thief Character we have, though I strongly suspect Masugaton is aiming at going that direction as well.
Narrator
 GM, 6217 posts
 DM says
 roll for initiative!
Sun 21 Apr 2019
at 14:00
Re: Out of Character 8
In reply to Balir Ironhide (msg # 7):

That is part of the problem. Having +5 striking strength on surprise hardly equates to D&D backstabbing ability unless coupled with targeting vitals or chinks in armor.
I am definitely for spending points on Target Vitals (targeting maneuvers are by location, as in strike leg, strike neck, strike vitals, strike head, strike eye).
I was reading the whole "why clerics are weak" thread on Dungeon Fantastic, and am going to try a Brute+Priest build for clerics...

The per to detect, IQ to set, and dex to disarm works for traps, DF2 talked about making lockpicking a DX skill.
Building a 10 IQ fighter type into an expert trap spotter/builder/disarmer needs points dumped into per and the skill;
Increased perception would help in general.

Reanna is a thief, and Sorsha has a thief lens, Mischa is a thief/artificer

The winning build seems to be archer/burglar or skirmisher/burglar with weapon mastery.
Balir Ironhide
 player, 108 posts
 Dwarf
 Warrior
Sun 21 Apr 2019
at 16:19
Re: Out of Character 8
I'm not as versed on DF as you are, but now that you have mentioned it I totally see the hole in the system.  I'll make a couple suggestions that might help with that.  For Mage/Sage builds, they just don't spend as much time on the Thief skills to have more than a passing interest in them.  You could house rule a few things to balance out the gap in a few ways:

* Limit them to 1 point in anything not a core skill for the high IQ folks, unless they specifically want to be a MU/TH build
* Make the skills one level harder for MU types, so DX/A skills become DX/H skills, which also discourages Building in that direction.
* I like adjusting the odd skill to be DX based, where it would make sense, to encourage that to be more of a TH skill.  They're going to have a high DX in almost all builds, so it would work.
* Maybe limiting PER for more bookish types would be the way to go, as a way to make the social skills more attractive to TH builds.

I don't want to encourage hacking up the system just to balance things out, but I always thought TH builds were hard because you had to have both IQ and DX.  You'd expect to have skills like Body Language be good for the class, but they frequently aren't because they ultimately base off of IQ.  You have to buy your PER up independently, when MU types get it as part of the build.

I hadn't really done more than noticing the issue, but I thought about it a lot more today.  Interesting.
Narrator
 GM, 6227 posts
 DM says
 roll for initiative!
Sun 21 Apr 2019
at 20:07
Re: Out of Character 8
In reply to Balir Ironhide (msg # 10):

Part of the built-in class disads are reduced move and per for casters, and thieves have full move and increased per but reduced will.
Scouts end up with the best per and move combos, and archer/burglar is quite good. We have a few brutes and squires with the adept lens as fighter/magic-users.
The problem with clerics is that fighter wise they are built as guards. Sure, 12 ST beats the 10 of the wizards, thieves, bards, and swashbucklers, but it isn't quite what you expect of a warrior priest.
Balir Ironhide
 player, 110 posts
 Dwarf
 Warrior
Sun 21 Apr 2019
at 20:27
Re: Out of Character 8
Coming from the 3E GURPs, I keep forgetting so much of Dungeon Fantasy is based on the templates.  I imagine that does balance things out quite nicely.
Jareth Mooncalled
 player, 1640 posts
 Dirty High Elf Sage
 HP: 9/9 FP: 7/10
Sun 21 Apr 2019
at 23:48
Re: Out of Character 8
Narrator:
I am definitely for spending points on Target Vitals (targeting maneuvers are by location, as in strike leg, strike neck, strike vitals, strike head, strike eye).

That works in games where vitals tend to exist in your enemies... Undead for instance tend to lack those vital spots... as do other traditional dungeon monsters (like ooze, slime, jellies)... so a lot of people who aren't Scouts, Swishypokelers, and Theifs (IE 'low damage dealers") tend to not bother with them.

quote:
I was reading the whole "why clerics are weak" thread on Dungeon Fantastic, and am going to try a Brute+Priest build for clerics...

I favor the Holier Warrior build myself (swap Born War Leader, Higher Purpose and Holiness 2 for Power Investiture 4, then 40 Advantage points into IQ and 10 Advantage points into spells).

Or just DX Cleric (spend 40 Advantage points on DX drop 10 spells and buy Combat Reflexes).  They still need to build their way into being a decent fighter (buying up ST and HT 14), but then so do Holy Warriors.

quote:
The winning build seems to be archer/burglar or skirmisher/burglar with weapon mastery.

Yeah, Scoutlar and Theifbuckler are stronk builds.





Balir Ironhide:
I don't want to encourage hacking up the system just to balance things out, but I always thought TH builds were hard because you had to have both IQ and DX.

Which is wht DFRPG swapped Lockpicking and Traps (Disarming) over to DX.

quote:
You have to buy your PER up independently, when MU types get it as part of the build.

As gwythaint mentioned, Wizard Templates lose Per.  In fact, they're the only Template that does.  Every other DF Template either keeps Per equal to IQ or buys it up (Scout and Thief).





Balir Ironhide:
Coming from the 3E GURPs, I keep forgetting so much of Dungeon Fantasy is based on the templates.  I imagine that does balance things out quite nicely.

Yeah, sticking to Templates means no Thief, no decent Lockpicking or Traps (Scouts can get good at Traps).

Allowing strong deviations from or outright ignoring Templates (as this game does) means no need for a Thief.

Granted... as several DF game journals I follow has shown, even sticking to Templates and not allowing Out-Of-Template skills, there is still no need for Thieves.  Doors and locks can be forced and traps can simply be survived.

That's why several GMs out there support the Theifbuckler and Scoutlar builds (by which I mean "make Lockpicking and Traps in Template for them and do nothing else").

This message was last edited by the player at 23:50, Sun 21 Apr.

Gorgath
 player, 442 posts
 HP 20/20 FP 11/13
Sun 21 Apr 2019
at 23:55
Re: Out of Character 8
Thieves need to be able to do something fantastic. All the other classes have the ability to above and beyond a regular person. Spells, weapon mastery, etc.

Thieves need something other than hitting hard.

Shadow jumps

Spider-walk on walls

Non magical disguise
Jareth Mooncalled
 player, 1642 posts
 Dirty High Elf Sage
 HP: 9/9 FP: 7/10
Mon 22 Apr 2019
at 01:13
Re: Out of Character 8
Gorgath:
Thieves need to be able to do something fantastic.

In my home games I've rolled Camouflage and Silence together into a new Advantage called "Shadow Walking".  It costs 5 per level, adds to Stealth just like Silence does but also counts versus sight.

For Thiefs it just works as long as they are being 'stealthy' (ie rolling Stealth) and they can buy 6 levels, for Halflings (up to 4 lvls) it only works if their are larger creatures or objects around to 'hide amongst', for Shadow Elves (also up to 4 lvls) they literally need to be stealthy in an area that gives Darkness Penalties.  The Racial and Template versions stack.


I also let Thiefs swap out High Manual Dexterity and Perfect Balance for 4 levels of Thief Talent which adds to Acrobatics, Climbing, Lockpicking, Stealth, and Traps.

I've been told this makes Thief more popular by my Players... but... it still hasn't netted an overall increase in Thief Characters being made.  My Players still prefer Thiefbucklers and Scoutlars.