Out of Character 9.   Posted by Narrator.Group: 0
Narrator
 GM, 8060 posts
 DM says
 roll for initiative!
Thu 6 Aug 2020
at 18:46
Re: Out of Character 9
In reply to Nana Yurick (msg # 612):

I want to work with the suggested templates, partly because I expect there to be certain baseline skills, and when someone strips away expected skills to johnny one spell themselves, it kind of deadends situations that might require use of a social or otherwise everyman ability or skill.
My 75 point characters, for example were not expected to have more than a level or two of magery or PI, partly because I wanted a set power level at that point range. I am still hazy on how both a racial template and a higher level of PI can be got from the template. I know GURPS is designed to be freeform,  but I have certain setting and power level based expectations.
Aine Walsh
 player, 132 posts
Thu 6 Aug 2020
at 20:10
Re: Out of Character 9
In reply to Narrator (msg # 613):

Judicious use of advantages...

But she is really limited in the number of spells, and still has to use energy for most spells. An extra level of Magery will make her much more versatile, ironically. Most of my characters use magic to achieve a wide variety of tasks.
Aldous Hack
 player, 188 posts
 Housekeeper's orphan,
 Street runner, rogue
Thu 6 Aug 2020
at 22:10
Re: Out of Character 9
The 75 pointers don't get much in the way of spells anyway -- as I recall from building a mage as a backup, I was only able to take 8 spells, and base skill rather sucks.  It would be possible to get more spells, off template, but as noted, that can wind up with a character who can't do things everyone is expected to know (like find his way around town).  Come to think of it, that latter one goes by the board even with most on-template characters by the time they're build down to less than half of standard point level.

Defaults work, but at 75 points, you don't have enough stats to make defaults even reasonably safe to roll (too much chance of a critical failure -- 16-17-18 really sucks).
Sparky
 player, 76 posts
 Skinny & hungry looking
Thu 6 Aug 2020
at 23:00
Re: Out of Character 9
Oh I don't know... Sparky was made with 15-16 spells, is reasonably able to function and while far from useless, is no monster mage.
He probably reflects the averaage Journeyman spell caster straight out of a chantery and learning the trade.
Narrator
 GM, 8061 posts
 DM says
 roll for initiative!
Fri 7 Aug 2020
at 17:03
Re: Out of Character 9
In reply to Sparky (msg # 616):

I think sparky took spells instead of advantages.   I am thinking of using Least Magic for 75pt characters: M/A spells that don't require magery, but can get by with zhedge mage. At 5pts oer level.
Sparky
 player, 77 posts
 Skinny & hungry looking
Fri 7 Aug 2020
at 18:31
Re: Out of Character 9
He took a few advantages, but didn't go nuts with them...

Tell me more about your Hedge Mages, I have my own concept since GURPS hasn't really templated them. Aethul is sort of a Hedge Mage.
Clarence Montague
 player, 337 posts
 Torchbearer
 Spiderboy
Sat 8 Aug 2020
at 01:30
Re: Out of Character 9
In reply to Sparky (msg # 618):

Clarence is a pretty incompetant mage...spell skills just 11! But that is ok...he only has to hold a light!

What is the hedge mage concept?
Jareth Mooncalled
 player, 2094 posts
 Dirty High Elf Sage
 HP 9/9 FP 7/10 PF 0/8
Sat 8 Aug 2020
at 03:11
Re: Out of Character 9
Least Spells are not good for Dungeon Delvers and aren't well integrated into the core GURPS Magic system (or rather they are an newer iteration of design that the older holdover from GURPS 2e Magic system that is GURPS 4e Magic doesn't integrate well with).

Hedge Magic is a Talent (similar to Magery but no capacity to sense magic) that gives a +1 per level to IQ/A Spells.

All 'Least' spells are IQ/A and it shows.  They are worthless for an 'adventuring' setting unless you rework the whole Magic system to make the Least spells into the 'starting' spells, thus reworking all the prereq chains and possibly taking a long look at the spells that are 'duplicated' and making a call as to which version to keep...  for instance:

Ember is basically Ignite Fire reworked as a Missile spell, in my opinion, Ember is actually better (even if it were IQ/H rather than IQ/A), while others are objectively worse...  there is no reason to take Twinkle which is Light bu at -2 to light penalties and the 'light' moves slower (Move 1).



Now, having poo-pooed all over it... it has its place.  In a Fanstasy Heartbreaker, where you can have characters that won't be relying on their magic for anything other than flavor, or the occasional very small boost.  But in a setting where there are actual mages?*  Not so much.


* Yeah, I get the whole "75 point characters can't easily afford Magery and will suck at their spells", but, they'll still suck at these spells and these spells are arguably no better than having a toolkit or a tiny boost.  I can see a few uses† for these spells on a 75 pointer, but they'll still be sinking like 55 points IQ+Hedge Magic just be 'marginally half-assed' in a couple of half-assed spells.

† I can see some actually useful for 125 and 250 pointer spells as well, the aforementioned Ember, Aid (allows First Aid without a Healer's Kit), Emergency Staff (temporary Staff spell), Reorient (Blocking Spell used in place of Body Sense), Sweet Oblivion (for removing those pesky memories), etc.  But these are "ease of life" spells, not hardcore "delving" spells.  And there are no "combat" spells in GURPS Magic: The Least of Spells, this book really was meant for non-DF style games.
Jareth Mooncalled
 player, 2095 posts
 Dirty High Elf Sage
 HP 9/9 FP 7/10 PF 0/8
Sat 8 Aug 2020
at 03:17
Re: Out of Character 9
Clarence Montague:
Clarence is a pretty incompetant mage...spell skills just 11! But that is ok...he only has to hold a light!

Sure, but with that 11 you can take Extra Time to boost the final skill up enough to making success a possibility, I mean how often are you going to be casting Light in combat?  And if you have full Magery (rather than a Charm/Alternate Path Perk) you can always pick up other spells later... like in a decade or so.

quote:
What is the hedge mage concept?

Not actual 'mage', just a person who has a few spells, usually "ease of life" spells who also might have a few useful skills like Weather Sense, or some other "useful in a village" type setting skills.

I have no idea what a Hedge Mage would look like for DF.  I wouldn't even make such a template, but I'm alos not a fan of less than 125 point characters (I could see a 125 point "Hedge Mage" but they wouldn't be 'PC' material).
Oly
 player, 1246 posts
 Badly disfigured face
 Rank 2 Guild badge
Sat 8 Aug 2020
at 03:24
Re: Out of Character 9
My thoughts were something like this:

Hedge Mages are distinguished from wizards by having an innate gift with magic, as well as having mystical or magical ancestry. Their talents are inherited. Their ability is limited in contrast (Magery 0 spells only), as they cannot perform all the spells Wizards can, but normally have a breadth of low power spells which can accomplish or improve many day to day skills, crafts or abilities.  They cast spells using cantrips, a fairly long chant or sing-song poem that generates the effect. Almost all Hedge Mages have a high IQ, as it is their only trait that supports their abilities with magic.

Wizards talents are not inherited, but seem to occur randomly among humans. The ability can be exceedingly common among other races such as Elves.
With study, wizards can do some amazing things requiring great power, but frequently know nothing of the simple magics Hedge Mages use daily.  Both benefit from education, although the techniques are not interchangeable at all. All Hedge Mages’ cantrips use 1 or 2 FP, but often take significant time to cast. Each Cantrip must be learned and some are harder than others to learn.

Each 10 seconds of casting time adds a -1 modifier to the success roll, which is rolled against IQ; and each new cantrip requires at least 200 hours to master, with a skilled teacher. Trying to learn from a grimoire of cantrips (or any written form) is at -3 in addition to any other modifiers. Cantrips are either known, or not known… additional study is assumed to maintain your skill, but adds nothing to the roll required.
Clarence Montague
 player, 338 posts
 Torchbearer
 Spiderboy
Sat 8 Aug 2020
at 04:09
Re: Out of Character 9
In reply to Oly (msg # 622):

That sounds very similar to the old DnD distinction between sorcerers Innate ability) and wizards (learned techniques). Something like that?

So you can take extra time casting spells? Good to know.
Oly
 player, 1247 posts
 Badly disfigured face
 Rank 2 Guild badge
Sat 8 Aug 2020
at 16:56
Re: Out of Character 9
The concept came from DnD, but I am trying to GURPS-ize it.
I want to have the Hedge Mage as something different from a mage who only has magery 0 or 1.
Different abilities and methods that share no relation to each other ... no ability to learn or use each others spells.
Grimaldi
 player, 694 posts
 Aralaise adventurer
 swordsman and wizard
Sat 8 Aug 2020
at 17:42
Re: Out of Character 9
would it be possible to gurps-ize the D&D spell, chromatic sphere?
Clarence Montague
 player, 339 posts
 Torchbearer
 Spiderboy
Sun 9 Aug 2020
at 00:09
Re: Out of Character 9
In reply to Oly (msg # 624):

Sounds to me like you are actually creating magical advantages rather than spells, per se.
Ardenas Barehand
 player, 1520 posts
 Human martial artist with
 a few spells on the side.
Sun 9 Aug 2020
at 11:39
Re: Out of Character 9
I like the hedge wizard concept.  I've built a few no-magery hedge wizards using standard Magic rules, for a high mana world, but they always wind up seeming like a crippled wizard.  Have you got a list of cantrips?

Obviously, the cantrips would be of very limited combat use with that kind of casting time -- if you need one quick, you're rolling on unmodified IQ (then again, if you have IQ 13 or 14, that's not a terrible roll).  This could be further controlled via the list itself.

The cantrips themselves seem like they'd be effectively Perks with a certain Talent as a prerequisite (know it or don't) vs. skills.  It would be tempting to see if GURPS already has a similar magic system, if only to limit the amount of GM labor involved in making up the cantrip list.

Potential cantrips for a hedge witch:

Sweep (effect like a broom, moves dirt and small loose items on a floor)
Wash (effect like a soapy sponge with an integral rinse)

Mend (effect like sewing with a needle, but the seam or darn vanishes)
Launder (soapy scrub with integral rinse, leaves fabric clean and wet)
Wring (forces water out of wet fabric, leaving it merely damp)
Dry (dries Wrung fabric in seconds, or wetter stuff in minutes)

Cultivate (turns soil and roots out small weeds, excluding specified plants)
Harvest (picks only ripe fruit, leaving green or spoiled)
Mow (cuts grass, hay, or grain into neat windrows)
Bind (binds grain into shocks for handling)
Bale (binds hay, straw, cotton, etc. into convenient handling size)
Thresh (separates grain from chaff, corn from cobs and husks, etc.)

That's just five minutes or so of idea generation -- I could easily see a long enough list that an experienced Hedge Mage could spend fifty points and still be something of a specialist (farming, housekeeping, various kinds of artisans).  Heck, I see the potential here for an entire GURPS sourcebook (after someone goes through the misery of "balancing" all those point costs with the power building rules scattered through half a dozen or more different books).
Jareth Mooncalled
 player, 2097 posts
 Dirty High Elf Sage
 HP 9/9 FP 7/10 PF 0/8
Sun 9 Aug 2020
at 12:27
Re: Out of Character 9
Ardenas Barehand:
The cantrips themselves seem like they'd be effectively Perks with a certain Talent as a prerequisite (know it or don't) vs. skills.  It would be tempting to see if GURPS already has a similar magic system, if only to limit the amount of GM labor involved in making up the cantrip list.

They already have Perks that do simple things like this...  in Power-Ups 2 Perks, but the idea came from the Supers line.

But if you look at the Magic system the 'right' way, the way it works in DF, all spells are already Perks...  after all, how many Wizards, Clerics, etc have spent more than one point per spell?  The expense is in IQ+Magery, and then the shear number of spells a cast takes, not in the individual spell skills themselves.
Narrator
 GM, 8066 posts
 DM says
 roll for initiative!
Sun 9 Aug 2020
at 13:55
Re: Out of Character 9
In reply to Ardenas Barehand (msg # 627):

The Least Spells has some of these, and the hedge mage 5pt advantage works for background of another class... you could do magic, saved up for wizard school and failed the admission exam, and became another class instead. I would use it as a 50 pt lens to add to 62 pt characters, or to be bought down from another 250 pt lens, or have someone take 125 pts in their primary, add the lens and ten take 75 points more in their base class, or something to that effect, but far less effective than taking the Wizard lens. It is primarily a flavor thing, and not optimized for power at all.

I will try and catch up monday, but it looks like I am only getting to 6 or seven threads a day instead of all 11. I might be a little overloaded.
Grimaldi
 player, 695 posts
 Aralaise adventurer
 swordsman and wizard
Sun 9 Aug 2020
at 14:04
Re: Out of Character 9
In reply to Narrator (msg # 629):
sounds like Gargamel's apprentice!
Oly
 player, 1248 posts
 Badly disfigured face
 Rank 2 Guild badge
Sun 9 Aug 2020
at 18:53
Re: Out of Character 9
In reply to Ardenas Barehand (msg # 627):

Most of the Cantrips I have were all rifled from D&D ... but here are some done for GURPS Sorcery-
I would not allow several of these, but over all, useful 1 point perks/spells/ abilities.

Sorcery: Cantrips
Sorcery allows the caster to improvise spells, but the ability is limited by the level of the Sorcerous Empowerment advantage, unless the caster is using hardcore improvisation. If the caster only has a single level of this advantage, he will be able to improvise only really weak 1-point spells. GURPS Thaumatology - Sorcery and GURPS Sorcery - Protection & Warning Spells give us only a couple of such spells, so let's make some more. Most of these spells are based on perks from GURPS Power-Ups 2 - Perks with some adjustments. Accessory works wonders!

Alarm
Keywords: None.
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll: Will
Range: Self.
Duration: Instantaneous.

Alerts the caster at a specified time in the future, awakening him if necessary. It will also remind him of one thing (in effect, delivering a message), provided he specified that thing at the time the Alarm spell was cast. Can be set to “go off” up to a week from time of casting.

Cancel Pregnancy
Keywords: None.
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll: Will ; resisted by patients will, if not willing.
Range: Touch or Self.
Duration: Instantaneous.

You can cause the absorption of an early fetus back into the womb.


Detect Plant Sapience
Keywords: Information.
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll: IQ
Range: Touch.
Duration: Instantaneous.

With a touch and an IQ roll, you can determine if a plant is sapient. This includes any tree that is currently the subject of Arboreal Immurement.


Fan
Keywords: Jet, Obvious.
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll: IQ
Range: 2 yards.
Duration: Instantaneous.

You can project a stream of air strong enough to scatter dust and extinguish candles at two yards. It has no combat effect.


Find Direction
Keywords: Information.
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll: Will
Range: Self.
Duration: Instantaneous.

Tells the caster which direction is North. Alternately, it can tell which way his home is. Note that no one can have more than one true home, and a wanderer may have none!.


Luminous Body
Keywords: Obvious.
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll: Will
Range: Self.
Duration: 1 hour.

Your body emits light for 1 hour. This is usually equivalent to a torch (lights a 2-yard radius).


Parthenogenesis
Keywords: None.
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll: Will ; resisted by patients will, if not willing.
Range: Touch or Self.
Duration: Instantaneous.

You can trigger a pregnancy by casting this spell. The fetus is effectively your clone.


Rinse
Keywords: None.
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll: Will
Range: Touch or Self.
Duration: 30 Seconds

You can moisten the exterior of your body, becoming damp enough to negate ongoing damage due to Cyclic (pp. B103-104) contact effects. You can extinguish flame if you’re on fire, flush away acid or poison, and so on. Each use costs 1 FP that you can only recover if you have access to water; see Dehydration (p. B426).


Silk Strand
Keywords: Obvious.
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll: IQ
Range: Self.
Duration: Instantaneous.

You can produce a 5-yard [meter] long strand of woven silk with a tensile strength of 350 Pounds [160 Kg]. You can cast this spell continuously without letting go of the strand, each time adding 5 yards [meters] to its length. This gives you improved climbing ability (p. B349) and can also be used with Swinging (GURPS Power-Ups 2 – Perks, p. 16). You cannot entangle foes with the strand. The strand disappears when you let go of it.


Tell Position
Keywords: Information.
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll: Will
Range: Self.
Duration: Instantaneous.

Tells the caster the subject’s exact distance, azimuth, and altitude relative to the caster. The caster must be able to see the subject. Error is around 5%; where relevant, the GM will secretly roll 2d-7 for the percentage, keeping negative numbers.


Tell Time
Keywords: Information.
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll: Will
Range: Self.
Duration: Instantaneous.

Tells the caster what time it is – as well as the day and year, should that be in doubt.


Touch
Keywords: None.
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll: IQ.
Range: 10 yards.
Duration: Instantaneous.

The subject feels a light touch at a spot of the caster’s choice. The touch is easily felt, even through armor, but has no effect other than to attract the subject’s attention; it cannot cause pain or discomfort, but it is very likely to distract him.

Body-Reading
Keywords:Resisted (IQ).
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll: IQ .
Range: Touch
Duration: Instantaneous.

Allows the caster to scan the subject’s body for internal damage – ruptured organs, internal bleedings, bone fractures, and even the sex of an unborn child. The GM will secretly roll against the caster’s IQ  and that of the subject, which the caster must be able to touch.  If the caster beats the subjects resistance or if the subject is willing, the caster learns what he asked for. If the caster is familiar with the illnesses in question, this will let them know about effects and treatment. Otherwise, the GM will use the margin of success to determine how much information to give the caster. The spell does not reveal the exact nature of any poisons or diseases that may be affecting the subject if unknown to the caster, but it gives a +2 to any subsequent Poisons or Diagnosis roll. Note that this spell is more difficult to cast on subjects of different species. It takes a -2 penalty if the subject is of a different species than the caster (an Elven wizard reading a human subject, for instance), -4 or worse if totally alien!

Stop Bleeding
Keywords: Resisted (HT).
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll: IQ
Range: Touch
Duration: Instantaneous.

The subject, who must be touched while casting, stops bleeding, as if his wounds were bandaged (B424). This also heals 1 HP. An unsuspecting or unwilling subject resists with HT. A willing target can (and usually will) waive his resistance. It takes a -2 penalty if the subject is of a different humanoid species than the caster and won’t work on Alien beings.

There is a similar version of Body-Reading and Stop Bleeding for Animals, but this must be learned by Biological Taxa (Horses, Canines, Cats, Scorpions etc.)

Sorcery: Utility Cantrips
Accessory-based cantrips can be not only technology-related, but also tool-related. The following spells would fit nicely in the college of Making and Breaking, and maybe Food.

Hammerhands
Keywords: None.
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll: Will
Range: Self.
Duration: 30 minutes

The caster can hammer nails in or straighten them out with his palm.

Knifehand
Keywords: None.
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll: Will
Range: Self.
Duration: 30 minutes

The caster can use his hand to slice bread, cakes, sausages, etc. This spell only works with relatively slow movements, so this spell cannot be used as an attack.


Scissorhand
Keywords: None.
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll: Will
Range: Self.
Duration:  30 minutes.

The caster can use two of his fingers to cut paper, cords, ropes, or other things, as if he was using scissors. His fingers are protected from paper cuts while he is doing it.


Sorcerous Screwdriver
Keywords: None.
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll:Will
Range: Self.
Duration: 30 minutes

The caster push his finger against a screw and screw it in, as if he was using a screwdriver.


Uncork
Keywords: None.
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll: Will
Range: Touch.
Duration: Instantaneous.

The caster touches a bottle an instantly uncorks it.

Grind Meat
Keywords: None.
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll: IQ
Range: Touch
Duration: 30 minutes

When the caster makes a ring with his fingers and pushes meat, vegetables, or other food through it, the food is ground, as if the caster was using a meat grinder.

Sawhand
Keywords: None.
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll: Will
Range: Self.
Duration: 30 minutes

The caster can use his hand to saw wood or metal. This spell only works with relatively slow movements, so this spell cannot be used as an attack. The hand is protected from splinters.


Slice Egg
Keywords: None.
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll: Will
Range: Touch.
Duration: Instantaneous.

The caster touches an egg and instantly slices it horizontally, vertically, or both, as if he was using an egg slicer.

  
Tell Weight
Keywords: Information.
Full Cost: 1 point.
Casting Roll: Will
Range: Touch.
Duration: Instantaneous.

Tells the caster weight of the touched subject.
Narrator
 GM, 8068 posts
 DM says
 roll for initiative!
Mon 10 Aug 2020
at 17:57
Re: Out of Character 9
Not bad. I am, however not doing other than Vanilla magic except for extreme outliers.
Ryojin
 player, 63 posts
 Martial artist
Mon 10 Aug 2020
at 19:50
Re: Out of Character 9
Gareth:
In reply to Shroud (msg # 892):

He is quite skinny, and weighs only 70 lbs. He has pretty low ST...



I got to ask, how tall is he and what is his ST score and does he have the skinny disadvantage???

Cause at 70 lbs, you would need an ST score of 9 with the skinny disadvantage to hit that weight, and that is the minimum for that ST score.

Skinny at:
ST 10 is 80-120 lbs
ST 9  is 70-110 lbs
ST 8  is 60-100 lbs
ST 7  is 50-90  lbs


Gareth
 player, 653 posts
 Odd Character
 Smokin' Human
Mon 10 Aug 2020
at 20:33
Re: Out of Character 9
In reply to Ryojin (msg # 633):

He is 5'1", ST 8 and Skinny...so he is not even at his minimum in height nor weight. He would be minimum size for ST 9...
Narrator
 GM, 8071 posts
 DM says
 roll for initiative!
Tue 11 Aug 2020
at 14:51
Re: Out of Character 9
In reply to Gareth (msg # 634):

Gorgath m8ght be back
Oly
 player, 1249 posts
 Badly disfigured face
 Rank 2 Guild badge
Tue 11 Aug 2020
at 18:40
Re: Out of Character 9
That might be nice ...
Gareth
 player, 654 posts
 Odd Character
 Smokin' Human
Tue 11 Aug 2020
at 20:46
Re: Out of Character 9
In reply to Oly (msg # 636):

Very cool!