Virgilio realizes thst non-enchantment spells fail in null mana zones... and the guild is bound to have one...

OOC:  You can't Balance a 'stick', Kromm's House Ruling† allows it if it's Sylvan, and then you have to treat the Sylvan cost as the base cost for Balancing purposes...

So a Silvered Balanced Sylvan Wizard's Staff is (Staff $10 + Silvered $20 + Balanced $600 + Sylvan $150 + $40 Staff Enchant) costs $820 and has 7 FP as a Power Item.  It does +1 damage and is +1 to hit with...  and if you slap Fine on there (+$20) it will have a Breakage Odds of -2.  If you've got the $140, may as well go all the way to Very Fine, for Breakage Odds -3 and 8 FP as a Power Item.

Now, if you have the moolah, an additional $240 on top of the above, you can take it all the way up to unbreakable Dragonbone (also with a -3 Breakage Odds if it matters) and 9 FP as a Power Item‡.

Staff $10 + Silvered $20 + $240 Dragonbone + Balanced $600 + Sylvan $150 + $140 Very Fine + $40 Staff Enchant = $1,200
To hit 10 FP it needs another $201 dollars of "embellishments" (which also takes it right up to Ornate +3 for free, the Silvering already takes it to Ornate +1).


†  And basically you have to treat the Base Weapon Cost as the "Sylvan" cost for Balancing purposes.
 His full, off the cuff ruling was "Use either the Sylvan cost or Material Cost, whichever is higher, for Balance cost."  However, we've just been using the Sylvan cost and not worried about doing things differently for the Dragonbone and Orichalcum staves that are dotted about.


‡  Which was the 'base' for Jareth's Shortstaff, it's a Balanced Silvered Ornate (+3) Sylvan Dragonbone Wizard's Jo Staff, with Supernatural Embellishments and some handy enchantments, and was very stonking espensive, after the switch to DFRPG... before hand it was "starting gear" expensive, but as all the Casting Spell enchantments were at the Q&D prices rather than x20$ (or x80$ as some Casting Enchants are in DFRPG.)


Like I already said, ignore those things, that's not how it works in DF/RPG or this game.  Gwythaint decides how long it'll take... the longest I've seen so far was 1 week.  Since I've played for almost 7 years now and we're just getting into week three in game time for Jareth... I hope it doesn't take a week for you - Of course, saying that, Dilandua (and this mission) took a week while Jareth and crew have experienced two days, so time passes faster outside the city...


They basically did, except that since they removed all those rules, they also decided to make it "simpler"*, one flat cost for everything (except the Staff enchantment, which those who only uses the DFRPG books will never notice).

Also note, DF/RPG isn't using the S&S cost which is $33/FP, but the Cost To Hire A Wizard To Cast A Spell cost, of $20/FP.


*  Kinda.  With DFRPG Magic Items, it's revealed (if you do the math) that some spells are more equal than others, frex, a Wand of Purify Water costs $4010, where a Wand of Purify Air costs $1010, so some spells have been deemed 'more valuable" to adventures as a Casting Item than others (both spells in Magic cost 50FP to enchant).  How do I know?  When I converted Jareth's staff over to DFRPG rules it ... skyrocketted in cost**, and it wasn't a simple "multiply all Casting Enchants by 5", which I figured out by accident when I went to look up the cost of making a Flask of Purify Water and didn't want to drag out GURPS Magic 4th as I already had DFRPG Magic Items open.

**  Just over a factor of x10.  Like Mario, Jareth snuck in the door with an item that later became very much more expensive.  Originally it cost him 4 Signature Gear points, after the switch to DFRPG it cannot be purchased at Chargen following the rules.  But despite it's stonkingly high price, it's barely been very useful... (not much call for the spells it can cast except Light and Stench, at least so far).


You're ignoring their replacement, Power Items.  Which then really complicates the economics... which is something DF/RPG is meant to toss out the window... but Gwythaint was sitting outside the window and drug it back inside for his game... kinda.  Sorta, in his way.



Reanna, there we go, looks like you just need to figure out where the Null Zone is and wave the staves around in the "mana degaussing" room, and Bob's yer uncle.

But only as long as I stay in the zone, right?

OOC: No.  Any permanent enchantment will reactivate when it regains access to mana (some may need Normal, others -- if cast at high enough skill -- will work in Low), but anything that's just cast will go and never come back (unless recast).  Mystic Mark and probably Continual Mage Light will be gone, Staff and Puissance won't.

Edit: One of the issues with a complex and very complete ruleset is stuff like this.  Of course you can (in real world) balance a staff, but most likely what Kromm was saying is it's already balanced -- more correctly, you can't readily unbalance a "stick".  I'd possibly argue that adding metal shoes makes it necessary to balance -- the shoes could shift the center of mass away from the geometric center, and surely will increase the angular moment of inertia (making it harder to turn the staff around its center and stop it turning).  And it doesn't make any sense why the Sylvan quality would suddenly allow/need Balanced.

Yeah, I know, fantasy game, not subject to reality checks.
This message was last edited by the player at 09:13, Tue 17 May 2022.

Virgilio Hohlfeld:

Of course you can (in real world) balance a staff, but most likely what Kromm was saying is it's already balanced -- more correctly, you can't readily unbalance a "stick".

OOC:  No, that's not the argument at all (kinda¹).  It's because sticks are so inexpensive it "unbalances the Cost Factor system".  So instead of fixing the pricing system for Balanced, Kromm went the other route for an adhoc "house ruling" for dungeon fantasy style games.... personally I'd have just fixed the CF for 'sticks' at something like x39 or something equally expensive (I dunno, I'd have to 'balance' the pricing against 'similar tiered' weapons, like shortswords, maces, knives, and similar other Modifiers... x39 is more of a 'price balanced versus swords' amount).

1 And yes, the reasons (for Low-Tech's original ruling) was that stick weapons tend to be balanced well already... but then why don't "sticks" get +1 to hit?  ("Because bonus to defense" was the reason given, so then why can't you "Balance for defense"?  "because, uh, reasons...")  And that's the second part of the rub, Balanced should be a reason to buy Weapon Bond Perk as balance is an individual thing², not a flat +1 to anyone who picks it up, but since that's a part of the problem that GURPS has always had (that 4e was supposed to fix³), that would require altering Low-Tech (Weapon Bond Perk didn't exist when Low-Tech was written) and that's not what Kromm wanted to do at that moment... or likely since as that was years ago (but who knows, if the line wasn't on the ropes, he might have updated those books).  I'm not sure if Balance was heavily discussed during Low-Tech's creation or if it slid past without a 'reality' testing, but I suspect it slid past.

2 Yes, yes, you can balance a sword better and that would benefit anyone, but then arguably the weapon was Unbalanced before... but that's a nasty can of worms the Authors of Low-Tech chose not to open, that all weapons should have a Familiarity upon first being picked up and that in many cases, should have a permanent penalty due to Balance being off... but that is a grit so fine it would clog up the machinery.  I've done it for Cyberpunk games with firearms, with the excuse being they are all so individualized that "New York reloading" gives a penalty until the weapon is individualized for the new owner... and it worked, but I didn't do it for "off the shelf firearms", just the NY Reloads.  And arguably before mass production, every weapon was different, swordsmen would pick through different blades until they found one that "felt good" (or they played with the balance themselves, added pommel weights, hilt weights, etc).  Or they Familiarized themselves to the new weapon... but again, grit so fine it's actually not really appropriate for most games (though I could see it in a Swashbuckler/Musketeers style game, makes "NY Re-equiping" on a battlefield a bit of a 'difficulty', or even a super gritty Harn-style historical/fantasy...).

3 AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!  I laughed then and every time I think about that line from SJGames, "4e brings all the rules back into the Core books, there won't be rules scattered all through the supplements this time..."  Oh man, those crazy kids were huffing their own farts so hard they either actually, earnestly believed it, or it was deliberate, malicious obfuscation.  To this day I'm not sure which of those two I want to believe... and depending on who was saying it my mood fluctuates...

quote:

I'd possibly argue that adding metal shoes makes it necessary to balance...

Staves are automatically considered shod.  'Unshodding' them  (or making a staff that isn't shod) affects the HP and DR of the staff for breakage purposes and reduces damage by -1, not Balancing according to Kromm, but again this is one of those "Kromm Rules", it's not in the books (as far as I can remember or find, but then I expect someone to pipe up with a page number in Martial Arts or something...).

quote:

And it doesn't make any sense why the Sylvan quality would suddenly allow/need Balanced.

As for that...

quote:

Yeah, I know, fantasy game, not subject to reality checks.

Bingo!  Also it makes Elven staves Ethnic Cool, they're tougher, hit harder, and practically 'aim themselves'.  And since it's a bit of a rubbish bandaid ruling (because you can rebalance⁴ staves, I've done it in the really Real World™) Kromm added the +1 to damage (it's pretty minimal for sticks) and the -1 to Breakage Odds, and allows them to be made Fine (which was altered for DF from Low-Tech to make purely wooden weapons less desirable).

4 Between making one side heavier than the other to moving the 'center of mass' more centralized or out to the ends, it doesn't "unbalance" the Staff, it does make it a little unwieldy, certainly Unfamiliar until you've practiced or fought with it a bit.  And there are reasons for doing all three, from adding striking power, to increasing mobility in your hands, the reasons for shifting the "balance' are different.

Frex, I prefer heavier ends with one side being about twice the weight of the other, but then I've got far, far, far more practice using a glaive (both dueling and naginata styles), so when I pick up a quarter staff, it's basically a light weight dull, non-stabby polearm to me.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:11, Tue 17 May 2022.

OOC: Sigh.  "Realism."  And anyone who's been paying attention to game rules evolution for any significant fraction of the past fifty years would know rules are always scattered through a dozen supplements.  It's how the game publisher keeps the players (and especially GMs) paying for their cheese sandwiches, as Spider Robinson once put it.  I will say it's actually possible to play a decent, complete-feeling game with just the Basic Set and (if you like fantasy) Magic (which roughly triples the number of spells as well as going deeper into the magic system); I've seen the claim that Hero System 5th. Ed. can do the same (i.e. play complete-feeling games with only the core rules), but I honestly never really understood that system well enough to be sure.

Since no one has objected in the past three pages to the idea of the former prisoner/slave/battery getting a share of the loot, I'll add it to my sheet and sneak off somewhere to buy some lightweight armor that doesn't look like I raided the dumpster behind a second-hand store and look around for a Fine, Silver-shod staff with Staff spell.  Not all that worried about Sylvan or Balanced -- though I might consider Accuracy (once again, probably prohibitive with the DFRPG pricing).  Has the post with the figures been updated for decisions made about staves and horses?

For me, Power Item has utility only to let me do a one-time casting of something too big for my own FP and Mana Reserve -- most folks seem to use it as a last-ditch endurance reserve -- so Ornate just makes me a target, and I have enough of that in my life.

Actually if you just pick up a stick, it is probably not straight and may have weak points and could be thicker on one end that the other. A staff is a "made" device so it is sturdy, straight and of the correct size. No real comparison.  Sort of like using a chair as a weapon .. fine furniture or clunky, cheap, sturdy chair? It will make a difference.

You can have Teams cheaply...

Silver-Coated, Balanced QuarterStaff, worth $70...

OOC: Reanna, we just had a huge rundown about why there are no Balanced staves.  That price is Quarterstaff ($10) + Silvered (+$20) + Staff spell (+$40).  To be Balanced, I'm told, it would have to be Sylvan as well, which adds a lot more to the value.  If it is Sylvan and Balanced, for $70, I'm very interested (+1 skill and +1 damage, if I read it right), since I'm about to go buy one at book cost without the Sylvan or Balanced.

In reply to Virgilio Hohlfeld (msg # 587):

Having said that, ignorance is bliss. I got this without knowing the restriction, and GM was happy with that at char gen.

I wonder if it would apply to a club?

Reanna Draegan:

I got this without knowing the restriction, and GM was happy with that at char gen.

OOC:  That's because the boss doesn't fine tooth comb the character sheets.

quote:

I wonder if it would apply to a club?

Clubs are also sticks (Staves, Batons, Clubs, all sticks), so by DFRPG rules, no you cannot Balance a club, at least not without apply Sylvan and then the Balance price to the Sylvan cost.

In reply to Dilandua (msg # 589):

Ok, so a balanced (+4) Sylvan (+15) Silver-coated (+2 CF) dragonbone (+24 CF) club (base cost $10) would cost $800 Foy balanced Sylvan and $260 for the material and silver coating?

Aaaand...  Backing up just a little -- if Staff spell is still priced at Q&D levels, it should be $30 instead of $40 -- it's a quarterstaff ($10) with Staff spell (+$30) that should be $40.  Making the silvered one (not Sylvan or Balanced) actually $60?

OOC:  Ahhh, true.  $40 is the cost for a Wizard's staff, $50 for a baton (because shorter lengths of wood are more costly, ???) per DFRPG Adventurers pg 118.  I just haven't paid much attention (probably because once your tossing around hundreds and thousands, $10 extra is chump change - But I don't forget for Cornucopia Quivers.  Hmmm.... maybe I just secretly hate Wizards).




Staff $10 + Sylvan $150 + Balanced $600 + Silvered $20* + Dragonbone $240...  yup checks out.

* Keep in mind, Silvered and Solid Silver count as Ornate, in this case Silvered counts as Ornate +1 for free (It's treated as being the same as Silver Inlay).
This message was last edited by the player at 18:15, Wed 18 May 2022.

OOC: Okay, looks like I'm shopping for a Silvered quarterstaff with Staff spell at $60.

Boss, I went ahead and sold the crossbow I've been carrying for the $60 figure I was given up thread a bit, replaced it with a fresh one matching my ST (10), and just tossed the bandit armor pieces in favor of:

Bronze Pot Helm (DR 3)
Heavy Leather Body Armor (DR 2)
Heavy Leather Boots (DR 2)
Light Leather Sleeves (DR 1)
Light Leather Leggings (DR 1)
Light Cloth Gloves (DR 1)

and deducted the book costs for those from my loot share; took the money in silver and copper.  Uploading updated character sheet, pending Staff shopping.

So… how much is paut?

In reply to Dne Utrotare (msg # 594):

Also, Reanna is thinking to take 2 Meteoric Silvered Daggers.

Also interested in a ST:11 balanced composite crossbow, worth $4750.

With her current $380 cash, how much can she sell her Silver-coated, balanced quarterstaff for? (Value of $70), bearing in mind the discussion above?

Did we evaluate those locked books and sealed documents for value?

Final loot share value?

In reply to Reanna Draegan (msg # 595):

1. were those armor pieces purchased from the revised list ( link to a message in this game )

2. that quarterstaff- was that from the mages, or was that a previous item?-
if it was from the mages, it is also Fine ornate, and has the staff spell.

3. you can get a composite,ST 11 crossbow, but a balanced one is a special order that will take a few weeks

Again, Reanna was a person reluctant to kill, and I saw no will rolls during the fight.  might be time to shift that trait; I know this is a legacy character, but it needs to be addressed.
This message was last edited by the GM at 16:08, Fri 20 May 2022.

In reply to Narrator (msg # 596):

Re: reluctance to kill, yes, that will addressing. Good pickup, I have points I was saving for combat reflexes, but can I buy it off?

The staff was the original one she had from Chargen.

A few weeks game time or RL? If game time, that will be a decade in RL!

OOC: I used DFRPG equipment prices (matching the linked table -- GCS has these now) except for the bronze pot helm, which was from Basic.  Looks like same protection and slightly lighter on the DFRPG list is a Light Segmented Plate Helmet (counts as metal for lightning etc., counts as plate for armor modifiers); $90 more.  I've got money at the moment, so that's not a problem, and saving a pound is always good.

If there's not a wait time involved, I'll go ahead and pick up that silver-shod Staff we've been discussing price on for $60 as well.

In reply to Reanna Draegan (msg # 597):

sadly, two weeks in game time.

You can sell the quarterstaff to Virgilio, and any leftover moneys can be used to embellish it so as to let it be a power item.

Virgilio, your armor and clothing will cost the same as standard, but take an extra day as it is being fitted for your irregular frame

In reply to Narrator (msg # 599):

Well, she may as well order it...and then suggest the group go on another wilderness adventure that takes a few weeks of travel!

OOC: Thanks, guess I'll wear the bandit stuff for another day while the fitting is going on.

That's a Balanced, Silvered Mage's Staff for $70?  I'll notate that as a legacy item via Reanna, so there's no confusion later.  Embellishment just makes it more expensive (and flashy), to permit making it a Power Item?  I think for the time being extra cash on hand will be more useful to me than a Power Item.  If I knew how to ride, I'd be tempted to buy a horse, though.  Default skill 6, might be feasible...

Oh, speaking of things to buy, are healing potions available?  Cost?  And what's a nice, gentle riding horse cost (say, a mare with a few years on her)? Found saddle, bridle, and saddlebags in Low Tech, stat sheet for Saddle Horse in Basic.

OOC:  Riding horses are 1,200$.  You might consider taking one of the Mage's Guild horses, getting them retattooed (if they that do that on the gums/inner lip like we do these days), rebranded, and healed, it'd be cheaper.  Also, they're already 'battle-trained' to an extent that they don't shy or startle when their riders unleash battle magics.

In reply to Dilandua (msg # 602):

Reannas staff does not have mages staff cast on it...that will likely be extra. But otherwise all yours. $70 taken, staff lost.

Silver-Coated, Balanced QuarterStaff:(+1 to hit, Sw+2 or thr+2), Reach 1, 2

Do we have an updated on loot factoring in staff identification and sale?
This message was last edited by the player at 21:11, Sun 22 May 2022.