But in GURPS you're paying for that ability (Acute Vision [?/lvl](Near-Sighted Use Only, ??%)) and reducing the cost of a Disad (Mitigator)...

It's not like you took Discriminatory Touch to get around Blind so you could read without the print being in Braille...  don't @me Daredevil!

(Note, for a Daredevil build it's often recommended to just take Color Blind, as effectively DD isn't blind after all his powers are accounted for... depending on the writer/GM interpretation.)


In DF/RPG "it's super-easy, barely an inconvenience".  Just spend 10 exp, raise Magery.

Note, this game goes back and forth on "how much" it is DF/RPG, it does seem to lean into 'rule of cool', and it isn't "super strict By The RAW" by any stretch*, so if Gwythaint thinks "Luck [5] (Spell Critical Failures Only, -80%)" is cool, then well there you go.

* If it did, you wouldn't have Mana-Enhancer as that's not in DF/RPG, and only one my current Characters would exist, as only one is "by the Template", the others are more (or less) loosely "inspired by the Template".


This is undeniable fact.


It's really not that much of change, it's in interpretation as the Basic book discusses dice rolling, successes, etc.

I mean how else do you reconcile the fact that Bless cannot mitigate or cause criticals if it alters the dice roll?



In Fantasy 1e† I bet it was meant to alter the dice roll (Bless in Fantasy 1e has no wording about criticals)... but then all the rest of the spell's wording was simply carried forward across editions with the addition of "The modification will not affect critical successes and failures."  Indeed in Magic 2e and 3e it reads exactly like Fantasy 1e, with that singular addition.

See for yourself:

GURPS 2e Fantasy 1e:
Bless Regular
  A general spell of aid and protection. It must be cast on another; you cannot bless yourself. In some game worlds, only holy men or “good” wizards can cast this spell; this decision is the GM’s to make.
  The effect of a blessing is as follows: All the subject’s die rolls are modified favorably by one point (or more, for a more powerful blessing). This lasts indefinitely . . . until the subject fails some die roll (or a foe makes a good die roll) and the subject is in some serious danger. Then the blessing miraculously averts or reduces the danger – and ends. It is up to the GM to decide when the blessing has its final effect, and what form the protection takes. If an arrow is aimed at your heart, a 1-point blessing might move it to your arm, while a 2-point one would send it through your hat, and a 3-point one would let it slay a foe behind you.
  Duration: As above.
  Cost: 10 for a 1-point blessing, 50 for a 2-point blessing, 500 for a 3-point blessing. Blessings may not be “stacked” - a stronger blessing dispels a weaker one.
  Time to cast: 1 minute for every point of energy in the spell.
  Prerequisite: Magery 2, and at least 2 spells from each of 10 different colleges. Magery 3 is required to cast a 3-point blessing. A GM may require “holy” or “good” status if he wishes.
  Item: Any. The blessing is cast on the item rather than a person, and affects the wearer of the item. When the blessing finally averts some great danger, the item loses its enchantment. Energy cost to cast: 10 times the cost to cast on a person.

GURPS 3e Magic 2e‡ and GURPS 4e Magic 3e:

Bless            Regular
  A general spell of aid and protection. Must be cast on another; you
cannot bless yourself. In some game-worlds, this spell can be cast only by
holy men or “good” wizards; this decision is the GM’s to make.
  The effect of a blessing is as follows: All the subject’s die-rolls are modified favorably by one point (or more, for a more powerful blessing). The modification will not affect critical successes and failures. This lasts indefinitely . . . until the subject fails some die-roll (or a foe makes a good die-roll) and the subject is in some serious danger. Then the blessing miraculously averts or reduces the danger - and ends. It is up to the GM to decide when the blessing has its final effect, and what form the protection takes. If an arrow is aimed at your heart, a 1 point blessing might move it to your arm, while a 2-point one would send it through your hat, and a 3-point one would let it slay a foe behind you.
  Duration: As above.
  Cost: 10 for a 1-point blessing, 50 for a 2-point blessing, 500 for a 3-point blessing. Blessings may not be “stacked” - a stronger blessing dispels a weaker one.
  Time to cast: 1 minute for every point of energy in the spell.
  Prerequisite: Magery 2, and at least 2 spells from each of 10 different colleges. Magery 3 is required to cast a 3-point blessing. A GM may require “holy” or “good” status if he wishes.
  Item: Any. The blessing is cast on the item rather than a person, and affects the wearer of the item. When the blessing finally averts some great danger, the item loses its enchantment. Energy cost to cast: 10 times the cost to cast on a person.



† Which is for GURPS 2e, sometimes GURPS gives me a headache with it's editioning nonsense.  GURPS Magic 1st (1989) and 2nd (1994) editions are all written for GURPS Basic 3e, while Magic 3e, 2004, is for GURPS 4e Basic, and yes that's a whole fat lot of "WTF?".

‡ I don't have Magic 1e, :( ... but I just bought it.  I didn't realize I didn't actually have it when I picked up Fantasy 1e, or I'd have bought it then.  When I checked my physical copy to compare Bless across all editions, it is also Magic 2e (so I bought a copy of Magic 2e from Warehouse 23 for no reason), so come March 18th, I'll have a copy of every edition of GURPS Magic, and my knowledge of the lore will be complete!  MWAHAHAHAHAHAH!



Everyone complains about D&D going through editions every "5 years", but GURPS 0e, Man to Man, was in 1985, GURPS 1e Basic Set was in '86, 2e Basic Set '87, and 3e was released in '88.  Now, I'll admit, 3e reign for 16 years, and 4e has no revision in sight (we're 18 years in and the only person who mentions 5e, which GURPS needs*, is Kromm and he admits it "would take more money than any sane multimillionaire would want to waste on it and technological inclusion most people are not comfortable with", basically he thinks it needs to be completely online, fully interconnected between books - a singular mega-index - and updatable as needed).


* Okay, it doesn't need 5e, so much as it's need a revisioning of a few things in Ultra-Tech and Basic to bring them in line with Low-Tech's Cost Factors for Equipment modifying, and a proper editing of Magic to actually make it 4e instead of 3e with a slight redressing.  There are reasons I call DFPRG's Spells "Magic 4e".


That's okay, SJG doesn't even bother with making errata anymore, they just make a new print run and annouce "we fixed some stuff, have fun figuring out what!"  Fuckers.  (I'm a little salty about DFRPG's edited second printing because of this.)


Nah... if he's is making that error, like I was before 2018 (yes I can quote when I had that argument with Kromm), he's going all the way back to 2e on this.  The dawn of GURPS Basic Magic.  When gods strode the earth... tv was in black and white, we listened to radio shows, and every school was uphill both ways.


That never hurts.  Sacrifice a fatted calf to RNGesus for all of us.

getting a +1 blessing on a regular would counter individual crit failures at the cost of the spell...

In reply to Narrator (msg # 7):

yo 11 threads is a lot!

You bear it well!

Directional confusion at the bridge near St. Remy (After the Battle)?

River is between Northport and St. Remy, and we came from the same side of the river as St. Remy, did we not?  So guards returning toward that small town, Reanna following guards, and Dilandua following Reanna shouldn't put anyone on the bridge, unless I'm very confused.

In reply to Virgilio Hohlfeld (msg # 10):

sorry, got that wrong, will edit when I get back on.

Who knew dragon men had lips?

You don't get out into Rule 34 territory much do you?

In reply to Jareth Mooncalled (msg # 13):

they can coceal their teeth, so yes, they can blow a horn. it would be more hensoian/moorcockian/flintstonian to have a loud creature on a stick that they pull the tail of or  eat with a drumstick tho

In reply to Narrator (msg # 14):

busy at work, might be a few days catching up

I didn't think this was that kind of game.

Edit: Wait, did Masugatan just admit he's revolting?
This message was last edited by the player at 22:27, Tue 15 Mar 2022.

Just sayin, there's plenty of evidence that dragonbois and grrls have lips.

In reply to Jareth Mooncalled (msg # 17):

Last I checked, to create a wall of fire you only use Create fire and Shape fire, right?

There is no "Wall of Fire" spell as such.  A large radius Create Fire can have hexes deleted during casting to produce a "wall" up to twice the radius long, or as noted Shape Fire can be used on any fire (natural or magical) to form it into a wall of a size determined by the original fire.

Problem is, Create Fire quickly gets costly at large sizes (radius 5, can produce a wall 10 yards long, costs 10 FP, 9 or 8 with high enough skill -- that's a lot for a wizard who doesn't have a pretty big Power Reserve), and Shape Fire is slow -- Create Fire to produce the original, then cast Shape Fire (though the fire hexes move at 5, as a GM I'd probably require either moving individual hexes at one per turn, or groups moving the same distance and direction, one group per turn -- IOW, it'd take at least 3-4 turns to make a radius 3 created fire into a wall 10 hexes long, and probably an IQ roll or actual player moving hexes on a map to do it in the fewest turns).

*ignite fire 1 14
create fire 1 14
heat 1 14
flaming weapon 1 14*
this is the extent of my fire magic. shape fire hasn't been learned yet.

[Jareth pedantry]
Ah yes, exactly.  I always forget GURPS has no Wall spells...  I also always forget (until I go looking for them) why they have no wall spells* and the many, many, many times I've pitched the idea and heard the chorus of "but the math is so hard to only shave a few FP off the cost, just use Create Fire and exclude the other areas and suck up the cost..." from other GMs and rules tinkerers on the SJG forums.

* Because you can already 'shape' the area of area denial/damage spells.  I keep meaning to sit down and figure out a decent way to do them for the games I GM, but then just never get around to doing it because I remember that would require using geometry and I have a distinct disinclination to involve geometric calculations in my life, despite how often you all see me doing it with spells already.
[/Jareth]



Note also Create Fire creates a fire 6 feet high, so if you want a taller fire you're in "unexplored territory" rules-wise*.  I usually just multiply the spell cost by the doubling, tripling, etc†, of the height a PC wants it to be and call it a day, but at the very high costs (as you note) that Create can get to... that has the repercussion of making that a less used option for most of my Players. m (I've seen it done twice and done it myself a few times, so it's not completely unattractive).


* Like are you allowed to just put another Create Fire above the first to make it 12 feet high?  Many GMs agree you can... but technically you can't and should use another spell to "increase" the size of the fire and then Shape it.

† Like if a PC wnats it to be 12 feet tall it's twice the cost, 9 feet tall it's 1.5 times, etc.  10 feet tall is 1.66 times the cost, always round up.




For Ülo her Fire repertoire is...

But then she is not a combat mage, she's a Utility "Witch" (Wizard/Druid*) with two whole combat skills at 11 (Cloak and Innate Attack (Projectile))... but she has a decent number of 'death dealing" spells, mostly Area Denial/Damage, but also Lightning and Acid Ball... yes, she has the two things needed to keep other trolls in line, acid and fire, and the spells to make them immune to them.

Lightning is in case she needs to get a recalcitrant troll's attention, after it's just mostly pain, the damage will heal within hours... hmmm, now that I think about it, Trolls should be "weak" against burn damage, not just flame (and acid).  Something to ponder for my games.


* Not a whole lot of Druid going on so far though, just to gain access to Esoteric Medicine and Herbalism, and set up for future expansion.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:37, Wed 16 Mar 2022.

Nothing in the rules says the fire shaped had to be flat, even or even horizontal. A 4x3 corridor could have the flame shaped in a single line along the floor, up the walls and across the roof. 4 +4+3+3=14 squares. 14 = pi r 2, r rounds up to 3. R= 2 covers 12 squares, r=3 covers 28 squares (so 2 squares deep all round), rounding down. Cost to cast: 6, cost to maintain: 3. Both can create fire, only one needs to shape it.

Granted, but it does "have to supported" so to speak.  Any part cast "mid-air falls to the ground"*, hence being on "uncertain rulings" with making a Create Fire column taller without using Shape Fire to do it.

And this is why I occasionally think about creating a Wall of Fire spell (as well as Wall of Lightning, Wall of Wind, etc).  Honestly I should just take all the Wall of X spells out of 3e Grimoire and convert them and then create the missing ones.  Hopefully come up with a formula so I can just write "Wall of X, Area, See X spell for damage, duration, etc, change cost to: [Formula]" and call it a day.  So in this case, Wall of Lightning would actually be Wall of Spark Cloud or Spark Storm.


* Which means any hexes cast above the ground would "fall to the ground".
This message was last edited by the player at 21:19, Wed 16 Mar 2022.

I would strongly argue that a ceiling can support fire, and flammable ceilings in house fires regularly do. Mid air would fall to the ground, but a wall or ceiling is not mid-air and should be able to support it. Rock may not feed it, but that is the same issue as on the floor.

You can certainly Ignite a (combustible) ceiling, but as a GM I'd explain that Create Fire is like starting a bonfire without fuel -- where a bonfire could sit, a Created Fire can as well, but where you couldn't lay a small (or large) campfire, you can't put a Created Fire and have it stay.

You can't lay a fire on the ceiling, so Create Fire won't make a fire that stays there.  If the ceiling is wood or wattle or tatami or paper or straw matting (or cellulose ceiling tile made before incorporated retardants), you could use Ignite Fire to set the ceiling on fire (might want to put more than 1 FP into it to get a more vigorous start than the "match equivalent" in order to get it going faster) -- but that's a case where the fuel is self-supporting (at least until it burns a bit), not one where the fire holds itself up.

There is an implied bias in the rules that most Area spells are cast orientated parallel to the ground with their "bottom side" towards the ground.  Remember, GURPS was first a tactical miniatures arena game, not a roleplaying game (though that came very fast on it's heels), so a lot of rules were created with that in mind.  Thus while "wall" and "ceiling" are things the fire from Create Fire will interact with, they are not orientation points for the Create Fire's "bottom", if you follow the implied bias.

This is just my game's rulings I'm theory wonking on though, so while it is based on 35 years of playing, GMing, arguing with other GMs, and rules creators online (only about 25 years of the online bit), it's Gwythaint's game.  If he wants Area spells that can orient onto ceilings (with the fire somehow going 6 feet down?  Or maybe just it's there, "plasma puddling along" the ceiling?), or on a wall with them jetting out 6' (at 3' tall) or being a column "supported on one side by the wall" that's his call.

In reply to Jareth Mooncalled (msg # 26):

Um... Jareth? Wall of Lightning already exist in 4e. On page 197 (or 72, if you use Dungeon Fantasy: Spells).

In reply to Jareth Mooncalled (msg # 26):

I would drop a no on setting fires to walls and ceiling without fuel to stick it to... you can toss alchemical fire at the ceiling,  but most of it will drip down.

painting the alls/ceiling with it carefully might do the trick...

In reply to Narrator (msg # 28):

Ok. So paint it with oil first, then create fire, and it will stay there as long as the spell is maintained?

Ah good eye.  I always forget about it as no one ever takes it in my games and they always grumble about the lack of "Wall of Fire/Water/Wind/Acid/etc".

I know it's in 3e, in the Grimoire anyway, but keep forgetting they kept it... and upon reviewing 4e Magic it looks like they kept all three Wall spells from 3e Grimoire and added a new one!

This is what comes of having Players that never take those spells, they get lost and forgotten.  So, hmmm... I won't have to reach back to 3e, I can use the current edition and just never get around to doing the math.  Excellent, saving even more time on my laziness!