Awards and development.   Posted by Narrator.Group: 0
Ardenas Barehand
 player, 1157 posts
 Human martial artist with
 a few spells on the side.
Tue 26 Feb 2019
at 21:17
Re: Awards and development
In reply to Balir Ironhide (msg # 99):

There were changes to the DF rules when the DFRPG set came out.  One of those was the elimination of Quick & Dirty enchantment (with the exception of the Staff spell), with the result that even a Cornucopia Quiver of ordinary arrows is now a $1300 item (as I recall -- it's a BUNCH more than the $125 it used to be, in any case).  Another was a further nerfing of power storage -- even one-shot manastones are almost impossible to obtain; a mage can have a designated "Power Item" (power storage proportional to $ value, which means a big reservoir is likely to be conspicuous), but they can only be recharged by NPC enchanters.  Also, PC enchantment is now completely gone; that's an NPC only function.

The underlying reasons, I presume, were balance related -- though I didn't think things were unbalanced in the first place, as long as you don't try to combine Powers with GURPS Magic (might be okay even then, if you're better than I am at building wizards).  "Balance" in a primarily dungeon-crawling game environment, however, likely differs significantly from "balance" in a more open-world game setting.

Generally, though, our GM is playing almost entirely by DFRPG (which differs little from the DF supplements to vanilla GURPS aside from the changes to magic items).  That means no manastones, no items that self-recharge, except hugely expensive NPC-made items with permanent enchantments.

You can have a mana reservoir for your caster; look at "Power Item" in the first DF book.  Costs $5/fp to have recharged by Spielgud or the other Guild mage (whose name I've forgotten).  The value to capacity formula there hasn't changed.
Christine Bjorn
 player, 1560 posts
 blue haired
 mountain elf
Tue 26 Feb 2019
at 21:29
Re: Awards and development
In reply to Ardenas Barehand (msg # 100):

Having said that, there are some of the older magic users that use 'grandfathered' items and statistics. Hence the confusion and uncertainty.
Balir Ironhide
 player, 69 posts
 Dwarf
 Warrior
Tue 26 Feb 2019
at 22:01
Re: Awards and development
Probably also explains why he's letting us have named items that grow with us as they are used.  That allows everyone to have a level of magic item more-or-less equivalent.  Might leave the mages a little bit behind, but i get the sense it will even out over time.
Grimaldi
 player, 336 posts
 Aralaise adventurer
 swordsman and wizard
Tue 26 Feb 2019
at 23:05
Re: Awards and development
oh yeah, suddenly being a mage just plain sucks.
Chou-Zhen Mou
 player, 832 posts
 Not quite right but
 a mage none the less
Wed 27 Feb 2019
at 01:57
Re: Awards and development
I would disagree.  It is also possible to spend character points on Extra Fatigue.  Combine that, high skill (most efficient, for a long spell list, if you have a high IQ + Magery), and a Power Item, specifically buy up skill in Recover Energy and a couple other key spells (a missile spell and one or two signature tricks), and a mage is a force to be reckoned with, even if they avoid paut aside from extreme need.

Were I human, I'd have had many more points to spend on spells, Extra Fatigue, and high skill level -- though I'd be less able to shrug off arrow wounds, poison, and the like.
Jareth Mooncalled
 player, 1564 posts
 Dirty High Elf Sage
 HP: 9/9 FP: 7/10
Wed 27 Feb 2019
at 06:23
Re: Awards and development
Grimaldi:
I certainly hope we use powerstones. otherwise being a mage is going to be limited to drinking potions that make ya blind. it's like bathtub gin, all over again! xD

It's called Power items.  They've been mentioned several times now.  They're arguably better than Powerstones.



Balir Ironhide:
40,000 posts in and the powerstone question hasn't been decided.

As far as I know it was decided a long time ago, we're using DF/DFRPG rules but allowing off template characters.  Just we have new Players that don't seem to have made characters using DF at all, which I've said a few times is a tremendous flaw in our GM's methods.

It's one thing to 'go off template' but still know what the setting switches of the game are, it's another to make characters wholecloth with no direction from the DF rules...

quote:
Seems like the first thing any good finger-wiggler would be asking about, because they are very useful caster tools.

Powerstones in vanilla Fantasy are expensive, most Wizards can't afford them at chargen.  When they have to make choices between armor, magic staff, other equipment and Powerstones.

Power Items take that hassle out of the equation.  If you can afford any equipment at all you got a Power/Heroic Item.

quote:
Plus, as written in the basic books, powerstones are potentially unbalancing if not managed carefully.

Not really, they're just a pain in the ass to adjudicate recharge times.  A 'one shot' pool of FP that you can only recharge in town is a lot simpler on the GM's paperwork.



Ardenas Barehand:
There were changes to the DF rules when the DFRPG set came out.  One of those was the elimination of Quick & Dirty enchantment (with the exception of the Staff spell), with the result that even a Cornucopia Quiver of ordinary arrows is now a $1300 item (as I recall -- it's a BUNCH more than the $125 it used to be, in any case).  Another was a further nerfing of power storage...

Not quite.  In DF Wizards can't take Enchantment spells, so that was already right out before DFRPG.

quote:
The underlying reasons, I presume, were balance related...

No, they're genre related.  Sean Punch (the creator of DF) didn't want to run a game for a group of mumptys hangin out in town enchanting items.  He wanted PCs heading out into dungeons seeking treasure.

So he removed the entire college of spells that discouraged adventure play.

These choices were further refined in DFRPG... and I think he went too far 9but I do get there were also page count consideration in DFRPG).

quote:
You can have a mana reservoir for your caster; look at "Power Item" in the first DF book.  Costs $5/fp to have recharged by Spielgud or the other Guild mage (whose name I've forgotten).

Power item is for spellcasters, costs $5/FP to recharge between adventures.

Heroic Item* (must be weapon, armor, or shield) is for Weapon Masters, TBaM, and Heroic Archers that need more FP to power themselves in fights.

Psionic Item* is for psis.

Endurance Items are for anyone, but that FP can only be spent on completely mundane stuff, marching fatigue, Extra Effort, sleep dep, lost meals, etc.  No FP draining attacks.  Requires a $1k ritual to turn ordinary piece of gear into Endurance Item.  The Item now actually counts as an Endurance Items and is 'enchanted"... kinda?  Anyway it's more valuable and you can own as many as you want.  The cost $5/point to recharge betweens adventures.


Power Items, Heroic Items, and Psionic Items have no intrinsic value as a "Power Item".  Being a Power item doesn't increase it's value, they cannot be 'bought' as Power Items.

And you can only ever own one of each, and must be able to use the power source (Magic, Divine, Psionic, Heroic).



* Heroic items came from DF 18 Power Items and  it and Psionic Items use... wait for it... Passive Recharging.  Sigh.  1 point per day.





Grimaldi:
oh yeah, suddenly being a mage just plain sucks.

Not even a little.
Ardenas Barehand
 player, 1158 posts
 Human martial artist with
 a few spells on the side.
Wed 27 Feb 2019
at 16:56
Re: Awards and development
Jareth Mooncalled:
Ardenas Barehand:
There were changes to the DF rules when the DFRPG set came out.  One of those was the elimination of Quick & Dirty enchantment (with the exception of the Staff spell), with the result that even a Cornucopia Quiver of ordinary arrows is now a $1300 item (as I recall -- it's a BUNCH more than the $125 it used to be, in any case).  Another was a further nerfing of power storage...

Not quite.  In DF Wizards can't take Enchantment spells, so that was already right out before DFRPG.


Except that, under DF, there wasn't an explicit prohibition against NPC enchanters making Q&D items -- +1 Fortify, +1 Puissance, and +1 Accuracy, for instance, Cornucopia for ordinary missiles, and a few other items in the under-100 fp category were almost dirt cheap (at $1/fp) when Q&D was permitted.  An archer who didn't buy a Cornucopia quiver was cheating himself.

With S&S the only kind of enchantment, even a Staff spell ought to cost $625 ($25/fp for 25 fp), hence the exception it enjoys, since wizards need their wands/rods/staves.  IMO, Q&D should have been kept; it would still have low level fighters, for instance, choosing between Accuracy and Puissance, but with a couple points in Wealth at least able to afford an enchanted weapon from the start.

Then again, a Staff that's worth $625 would make a very acceptable power item for most starting wizards...
Clarence Montague
 player, 194 posts
 Torchbearer
Wed 27 Feb 2019
at 19:59
Re: Awards and development
Ardenas Barehand:
Then again, a Staff that's worth $625 would make a very acceptable power item for most starting wizards...


Except that Power items use an items MUNDANE value, before enchantments...
Narrator
 GM, 5977 posts
 DM says
 roll for initiative!
Wed 27 Feb 2019
at 20:24
Re: Awards and development
In reply to Ardenas Barehand (msg # 106):

There was a whiff of powerstones, Spielgud has some that belonged to Flax, also a charging rack, left over from 3e. There are none elsewhere.
Ximmiv was an enchanter pc from before Sean's purge, and he and I had worked out that power item recharging was via the manastone spell. However, after the player left, I gave the character the  50 pt"can charge power item" advantage from DF18. He is the go to guy, and holy items get recharged in Paolo the Pardoner's high sanctity room.
Likewise Charal casts Clean all day from her 1 yard high mana area...

Passively charging psionic items can recover energy faster when next to sleeping elder things. Usually not a safe proposition...but functional here...


As to the off book characters, there are a bunch of 3e players who don't own any 4e, so there are a handful of unpowered characters, along with a l9t built from mismatched templates from DF 15, which I like.
Jocelyn Lemru
 player, 357 posts
 Sorceress
 hot and hotheaded
Wed 27 Feb 2019
at 20:47
Re: Awards and development
Any idea of how much $$$ the Juniors will get?  ... looks thin w/o Alaric's (assumed) sword.
Narrator
 GM, 5982 posts
 DM says
 roll for initiative!
Wed 27 Feb 2019
at 22:58
Re: Awards and development
In reply to Jocelyn Lemru (msg # 109):

It is not a huge amount of cash, but that stone...
Jareth Mooncalled
 player, 1565 posts
 Dirty High Elf Sage
 HP: 9/9 FP: 7/10
Thu 28 Feb 2019
at 01:30
Re: Awards and development
Jocelyn Lemru:
Any idea of how much $$$ the Juniors will get?  ... looks thin w/o Alaric's (assumed) sword.

$10 each, with $10.6 going into the 'house fund" and $5 for Charlene.  This doesn't count the orichalcum cuffs or Alaric's sword or the Wish Stone (presuming it is a Wish Stone).
Mario Crowfoot
 player, 819 posts
 An orphan who grew up
 with bow in hand
Thu 28 Feb 2019
at 03:03
Re: Awards and development
Good thing I don't have to buy replacement arrows (not that I would have used a lot on this last run).  That'll buy me a couple meals, anyway.  No more broken pies from goblin street vendors for me...

Get a good night's sleep and I'll be ready to go again.  It's good to be young...
Narrator
 GM, 5983 posts
 DM says
 roll for initiative!
Thu 28 Feb 2019
at 17:28
Re: Awards and development
In reply to Jareth Mooncalled (msg # 111):

The cuffs are worth $3000, or $1200 post sale.
Mario Crowfoot
 player, 821 posts
 An orphan who grew up
 with bow in hand
Thu 28 Feb 2019
at 19:39
Re: Awards and development
Okay, that's more than a couple meals...
Jareth Mooncalled
 player, 1566 posts
 Dirty High Elf Sage
 HP: 9/9 FP: 7/10
Thu 28 Feb 2019
at 23:37
Re: Awards and development
Mario Crowfoot:
Okay, that's more than a couple meals...

Aye.
Narrator
 GM, 5997 posts
 DM says
 roll for initiative!
Sat 2 Mar 2019
at 15:16
Re: Awards and development
In reply to Jareth Mooncalled (msg # 115):

I recommend Jocelyn pay 1 point for shape metal, and 1 for the perk "alternate path" which eliminates the need for prerequisites.
Jocelyn Lemru
 player, 363 posts
 Sorceress
 hot and hotheaded
Sat 2 Mar 2019
at 21:00
Re: Awards and development
In reply to Narrator (msg # 116):

I believe I already have shape metal.... <Shape Earth (Metal Only) IQ/H> by your hand. Don't know that the perk is necessary.
Narrator
 GM, 6003 posts
 DM says
 roll for initiative!
Mon 4 Mar 2019
at 23:12
Re: Awards and development
In reply to Jocelyn Lemru (msg # 117):

 Thought you were short a point. Take the perk free, it explains the way you learned it without prerequisites
Jocelyn Lemru
 player, 364 posts
 Sorceress
 hot and hotheaded
Mon 4 Mar 2019
at 23:13
Re: Awards and development
In reply to Narrator (msg # 118):

She has it as a charm...
Mario Crowfoot
 player, 823 posts
 An orphan who grew up
 with bow in hand
Mon 4 Mar 2019
at 23:24
Re: Awards and development
Another step toward a personal goal: Mario has improved his Bow skill.  Offsets a step of range or part of a called shot penalty.
Jareth Mooncalled
 player, 1570 posts
 Dirty High Elf Sage
 HP: 9/9 FP: 7/10
Mon 4 Mar 2019
at 23:29
Re: Awards and development
I've been sick the last week, so I've fallen a tab bit behind on my updating of things...  give me a few days before we do any major moving on?
Narrator
 GM, 6027 posts
 DM says
 roll for initiative!
Sun 10 Mar 2019
at 17:57
Re: Awards and development
In reply to Jocelyn Lemru (msg # 119):

Couldn't remember if I had already done that. Thanks.
Narrator
 GM, 6028 posts
 DM says
 roll for initiative!
Sun 10 Mar 2019
at 19:32
Re: Awards and development
In reply to Narrator (msg # 122):

In the service of the Omo

Gifts from Sakemoko to follow.
Iskander has a gooq thrusting broadsword and hanger.
Tanaka has a chainmail hauberk sellable for 558 and helm for 90, and a shield sellable for 24.

Points: 4 each
Chou-Zhen Mou
 player, 839 posts
 Not quite right but
 a mage none the less
Mon 11 Mar 2019
at 08:56
Re: Awards and development
<bows>

Thank you!