(shrugs)

I'm the cat.  Ask the dog.

Torso mounted weapons also have the option to be one large weapon that spans both locations so you can put a large pulse laser in the torso, it'd just be the only weapon in the torso.

It's a late and relatively new rule for the loaders to use a 'heavy' module which is pretty much a module that uses two hard points for really large weapons, or in the torsos case, if you want to mount a single large weapon in the torso, for convenience.

Precision ammo doesnt work in rapid mode btw, though you can use it in snap shot single mode fine.

Without a doubt, the tourney is suppose to favor the mercs over the cadets.  That's not to say that a cadet cant do well and even win.
This message was last edited by the GM at 00:21, Thu 11 Sept 2014.

In reply to Mattias Hudson (msg # 721):

Hehe, knowing that you had the option of ignoring 2 points of my move mod or taking a +1 to hit with AP rounds definitely made my movement choices easier. :)

I could just focus on my own to-hit numbers and not worry so much about yours, since you would just ignore most of my efforts anyway :P

Quick question:  In the first two battles I fought with Lucius and Ana we rolled initiative once for placement and then again for round 1 initiative.  In Penny's battles she has been doing it in a one roll take all for both placement and movement.  can we get a clarification on which way we should be doing things?

One roll was the original intent, though i suppose if both parties agree, two is okay too.
This message was last edited by the GM at 10:37, Thu 11 Sept 2014.

Okay...

I have like 20~30 notes in my private message from the tourney and it's all over the place.

I need the players of the Tourney to report their results on the Mission thread.

link to a message in this game

If you win, please note what you want for a prize (cb/xp) and which character it will be for.  If you only have one character it might seem self evident, but it will really make my life easier if you note it in the results.

For the record, despite it's size, because of the terrain, it is much too easy to get a draw on this map.

Really against an opponent that does not want to engage, there are plenty of places to run and hide.

I definitely wouldnt suggest making it bigger and easier to play hide and seek.  Given the ten turn limit, you either have to have two player willing to fight and play, or you have to be really lucky.
This message was last edited by the player at 20:40, Thu 11 Sept 2014.

I suppose... a partial solution next time might be to just make 'draws' less attractive.

As it stands, i gave out rewards for a draw, on the presumption that i wanted to increase the odds of a player walking away with something from the mission.  It would suck for two player fighting hard, not to walk off with anything after a hard fought game.


Another solution might to have a 'minimum' damage requirement for a match.

Either a mech needs to be disabled or 50 points of damage needs to be exchanged somewhere along the way for it to count as a match.

60 points adds up to 6 points a turn... which in an honest match should be easy to achieve, that's an average of a smaller hitting by each player each turn.

If they dont reach this threshold, we can just call it a 'no match'.  Playing to tie should be a legitimate strategy if youre out matched.  Playing not to lose from the get go, and no one doing any damage is just a waste of time for all players involved.

This rule will be in effect for sure the next tourney, do you people want it in effect now?  It would let some of you throw away the draws and find new opponents if we use it.

depends on your loadout.  I can touch most of the map with my PPC and LRMs, its harder to run and hide from that than someone with a knife fighter setup...

Maybe a minimum fire requirement?  The crappy gunnery skill of the cadets makes hitting things consistently very difficult...I 've fired all my weapons 2 out of 3 rounds against Penny... haven't hit anything yet... best Tn I got was a 9+.

In reply to Kitten (msg # 729):

Having some quick measures to determine whether or not a fight was 'fighty enough' is a fine idea, but I think that it should be left up to the combatants as to whether or not they need to be applied to any given match. There's no reason to judge a match if neither player feels that the other was trying to stiff them :)

I think it's important to remember though, any rule can be gamed. The only sure fire way to judge whether someone was making an earnest effort to win is to review the match and make a judgement. Heck, if there's a way that we can share out the match threads, we could just have the battlemasters, or even everybody form a tribunal and judge the match. :P

Or you can simply only give equal rewards for a win.

That gives more than enough desire to pull out a win...somehow...even if it's risky.

Or you could just remove the turn limit.

No draws then :D

Luc has a point if there is no prize for a draw, then players will either be more aggressive, or be satisfied with getting nothing.

I dont want to do that for this 'tourney' though.  I suppose i hadnt thought it through enough.  I dont want to have to sit through all the fights.  I shouldnt have to.

If people just want to rubber stamp a draw this time, i'll let it slide.  I dont think it's fair for those actually looking to play, so I'm willing to let players for this tourney who are not satisfied with a Draw, just take it as a no game and go look for a new match up.

That's about all i can concede as fair at this point.

With 2~3 weeks to go, i dont want to muck around with this stuff, if we finish the tourney early we'll start mission 11.

It's mostly done.  I have to look at valk loads, and make maps and then we start.  Will probably release it for review by player and BMs, answer questions and twink stuff if i missed anything.  I'd rather look forward at this point and just use M10 as a learning experience for next time.

I think 50 points of damage exchanged during the match is a fair judge of a 'match'.  Really if you're not doing at least 25 damage, something somewhere went serious wrong, which meant your opponent should have made up your share.

You need a turn limit.  If only to let people have a clue how long a fight should run.
This message was last edited by the GM at 23:11, Thu 11 Sept 2014.

These TN are of your own making.  If you constant keep yourself at longer ranges to make yourself harder to hit, youre also making it harder to hit your opponent.  You have a base gunnery of 5, using pulse lasers thats like having a base gunnery of 3.  If youre not going to close to actually get use out of their short range, you should have gave thought to picking up normal laser and a BTC, which would give you longer range, and half the pulses bonus at the longer ranges.  Range is a duo edged penalty, it's going to make it harder to hit you but it's also going to make it harder for you to hit them.  You cant want them to take a tn 10+ attack rolls at you and not to expect similar  rolls when you're returning fire.

My point was the cadets aren't on equal footing, and when you are at a disadvantage choosing to give your opponents 10+ tn as long as you cant get better than a 10+ tn is a legitimate strategy.  My shots were taken at range 5 (Penny had initiative and chose the range for that one) and range 4 (I chose the range for that one)  I was hardly running and hiding. (I was keeping up a consistent +3 def mod though)  When you loose initiative moving away from the other player is the only thing you can do that doesn't give them a free shot at your rear armor or taking a +0 or +1 def mod... that really isn't much of a choice...

Making yourself as difficult as possible to hit until you can win an initiative and engage on your terms is a legitimate strategy.  I used the same strategy against Luc and Ana, I'd be curious to know if they felt like I was running and hiding in our matches...

---

Maybe making the reward for a draw and for being beaten through combat (not conceding) the same?  10k cbills is not exactly a princely sum, and its never a bad idea to give players small rewards for participation.  Players would probably be more aggressive if they are getting the same reward lose or draw as long as they participate in a legitimate battle...  Luc's got a good point too, the difference in reward between win and draw for the Omni player is much smaller than the difference between a draw and a loss...

Once I gave you a head hit taking you to a 7/8 pilot.  Yeah you totally ran.

But at that point in time you had no chance of beating me at all.  Dice gods played nice with you and not only allowed you to actually land a shot on me in the last five rounds of combat but had me miss 15 shots in a row where I got TN's as low as 6 and 7.  Luck was on your side.

Right, I didn't just waltz out in front of you when I lost init early and say "here's a free shot go ahead and take it"  I tried to at least engage on the most even terms possible, of course once my options were draw or loss I played for something rather than nothing... the dice were just as brutal to me in the first 5 rounds as they were to you in the last 5 after all...

You really want to dice this out in an open forum?

Fine lets present all the facts.

Penny is Gunnery 3 and Pilot 5, 4 for initiative, Penny is using 3 ac/2 rapids, if they all hit on average they will do an extra 2 damage half the time, so we'll say that she does 8~9 damage if everything hits.

Malcolms Cadet is 5, and Pilot 4, Malcolms Cadet has two MPL and a ML to help along with damage, so if all the weapons hit, they do 17 damage.


Taking into account the Cadet's pulse laser, at least 12 of their damage would be base 3 to hit, which is at least as dangerous as Penny's 9 damage.

So... lets remove the illusion of who's the more danagerous mech is.

---

Turn one... it goes on for three days to resolve the fact that i won inititiave and he has to set up and move first.  Then when he gives me his position he gives me no facing.  Accident or calculated effort to edge a facing after i put myself on the map, i couldnt say.

Turn One
He starts in 0503s... finally.
I start in 0413n

Right off the bat he runs to 1006s, to take up a defensive position.
Fine.  It's early its not an unreasonable move.

I go to 0405n...

and theres an exchange of fire, i need tn 8+  He needs tn 12+


Turn Two
I need a tn8+ for inititiave and i win, so... he bolts and runs....

to 1511s (Really, full out, show his back to me run away.  Really.  This is not defensive movement, this is all out running away, and i've only done 2 damage to him.)

It's at this point that i just give away intiative to him as a concession, because he wont engage otherwise.

So i move to 409n on turn two

Then i move to 0610se on turn three without bothering to roll intitiative, and then... at this point, he feels safe enough to engage the fearsome Raven.

He runs to 1009nw  and makes attack rolls at tn9s and 11s and comes here to complain i havent given him anything better to shoot at...

Really?

If he hasnt had better TN's to shoot at... looking at his movements... who's fault is that?

If i was truely fed up and just decided to play his game and hide in the NW corner we wouldnt have been in range for combat till the game was half over, and then what's the point?

My point is... it takes no great talent to avoid combat and kill the clock.

He thinks his Vindicator wouldnt be susceptible to it, but i'm telling you, it would be equally fustrating for the Vind on the map.  There are enough trees and hills to break LOS, so even if he's in range there will be no shot.

There is no match, if all youre doing is playing tag with mechs.

Oh and... if i have any hard feelings about how the match is turning out, it's all on me, cause he was playing to win.
This message was last edited by the player at 00:47, Fri 12 Sept 2014.

I asked Penny the same thing, but I'll ask anyone else listening.  Point out a better move in either round that doesn't give her a chance to maneuver behind me or give her Tn's in the 5s and 6s.

In the first round I cant move south due to her positioning, either I don't move at all and take a +0 def mod, or it I go south even a little she can maneuver behind me...

Turn 2 I can go around the edge of the lake  and let her get a shot at medium range on me, I canrun at her and let her behind me, or I can get a little better def mod from the trees towards the SE corner...

again, someohe show me a bettermove in either case.

Back up five?

Guns facing me and a reasonable def mod

In position to engage if you win initiative.

If you're not in position to engage if you win initiative you're just running scared..n it take no talent to flee when you lose init and engage if younwin.

At the moment I'm conceding him init for the rest of the. Match and going full defense to let him see how little talent it takes to run away from an engagement.

Then go where when you probably loose init in the next round? Backing yourself into a corner is generally a bad idea...  I plan my moves at least two turns ahead, I already know what your best move is when I'm posting my move and what my best two or three moves are going to be in tesponse to it if I loose init on the next turn... The woods were far preferable, more options if I win init, more access to cover if I loose...  I guess where I felt insulted was when you decided you wanted to bail on the match when you didn't like one move.

In reply to Malcolm Strauss (msg # 744):

(shrugs)

Come get me.
This message was last updated by the player at 12:30, Fri 12 Sept 2014.

Okay.

nuff.

Poll over.

>.<


It was a mixed success.  There were a lot of good things about the tourney, but there was also some stuff that needs to be worked.  For a first effort i didnt think it was bad.  The next time around i will modify the tourney to take into account it's short comings.

I like the map.  It's large enough to move around on, but it's small enough that engagements arent a chore for two players that actually want to fight.

the short coming was perhaps in the format.

The structure of the rewards, for a 'draw' are perhaps too enticing.  I'll fix that next time.

Plans for the future will probably include a Heavy Tracked Escort on each side.  A slow 3/5 tank, will give players fustrated with chasing mechs, something to shoot at and end the mission.  It may not be a perfect solution, but it'll certainly change the dynamics of the next tourney.

I'm cutting mission 10 tourney short.  Some players are already done with their three, and others have indicated they wont even be participating.  It was mostly a mission for me to go on vacation, and deal with the paper work of the last contract, and setting up the next contract.

I'm ahead of schedule (yea me~!)

I'm finalizing the valkyrie's mission.  Will give them till tomorrow to contemplate and change their loads.

Then missions will be released, and valks will NOT be allowed to change loads.

Maps still need to be generated, but my tentative start time is this weekend/next monday.  Start times will vary based on what is easier for your BM.  Please be nice and civil to your BM, they're not really the bad guys.  There would be no campaign without them.

---

Oh~!

Right.  Since i'm starting M11 early, i want to wrap up M10 missions by this weekend.  Mission in progress can try and wrap up by then, or players may just mark them off as a 'draw', if there is no clear winner.

I want Tourney results in by FRIDAY, so that i have a chance to bookkeep them over the weekend.

Dont forget to tell me if youre getting cb or xp for your characters, and if you have alts, which character is getting the booty.
This message was last edited by the GM at 13:45, Fri 12 Sept 2014.