We're waiting for approval before Nancy opens up the computer.

So, I don't want to start drama. And I'm aware that the GM doesn't have much time for this. But I just can't continue the game without saying this.

Shadowclaw is a Shadow Lord with a good skill in Etiquette. Shadow Lords are known for their strict hiearchy where everyone knows their place and how to behave. In addition, Shadowclaw's been "raised" by a Hakken, if anyone dwells on etiquette and proper manners, it's these guys. In fact, they are even more strict on this then other Shadow Lords. Shadowclaw had this taught to him basically his whole life (and that's why he's relatively "human" even as a lupus Garou). It's literally a part of his backstory.

I also specifically mentioned that Shadowclaw had asked for permission to speak and only spoke if he received it. If I didn't write, fine, I could just accept that it would've been my mistake. I could even accept the fact that Gnuris apparently heard Shadowclaw's whole long speech instead of interrupting him because I spoke without permission, for the sake of the game.

But this breaks the character. Shadowclaw being someone who doesn't know any better just doesn't work and I wrote my post to reflect that, specifically because I was worried that it might happen. Yet it happened anyway, despite my specific efforts to avoid it. Not to mention that due to the way how the whole thing has been resolved, Shadowclaw both spoke without permission AND he also insulted Gnuris because he for some reason didn't interrupt him outright and let him say the whole speech. One would think one of those would be enough, yet Shadowclaw managed to do both. That makes him look seriously incompetent and already the other characters are going with that take.

Can't we really just change it so that Shadowclaw GOT the permission to speak and Gnuris still reacted negatively because he can't handle anyone even implying that he's wrong in any way? I even suggested that before, but it seems that was ignored. It might not look like a big deal to you, but it would make it a lot more believable to the character I'm playing if I'm supposed to just go with the events as they are described.

Also, I was thinking about using one of my gifts to solve this, but I was waiting for the GM to return and respond and apparently I'm now in the other room, so now I can't do that? I thought we were waiting until this was solved, but I guess not. I could just as easily have posted that I dodge Ryan's attack and run away (would be easy, since Ryan was affected by Gnuris' gift and Shadowclaw wasn't) or try anything else. I didn't write that Shadowclaw is doing what Ryan told him and lets himself be escorted. In fact, I didn't write anything at all because I was waiting to solve this with the GM. Now it's apparently too late.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:53, Tue 14 Feb 2023.

And what's the point of playing a Ragabash when you are just supposed to shup up and be quiet whenever there's a chance to do Ragabash things. If there's anyone who needs a Ragabash to point out how foolish they are being and say the things everyone else is thinking too, yet is too scared to say them, it's someone like Gnuris. If Shadowclaw wasn't successful or there were some consequences, fine, but he wasn't even given a chance. It's not just Gnuris there. Some hint that his speech had some effect (with a successful roll) with the other high ranking sept members would be enough.

I feel like I've wasted XP on skills I'm apparently never gonna use and the fact that my primary Ability type is Social was apparently won't matter either. Maybe I should give up Shadowclaw and make a new character, Lockjaw's dumber brother. Then I could just make a post whenever there's combat about how I destroy six BSD in one round and then just ignore everything else.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:48, Tue 14 Feb 2023.

...I don't know what to tell you, except it looks like about 10 posts would have to be deleted to accommodate you. It's like you were playing chess, blundered your queen, and the game just continued on with your blunder. Storyteller did post that you'd been removed from the room, as he'd posted you in the room with the old guy but didn't update Gnuris.

Well, I pointed this out right after the GM posted his original post and even suggested this solution back then, however the GM then disappeared for a few weeks. So you can't really blame me for that.

But I don't expect anyone to delete anything. Maybe just have the GM edit his original post somewhat to match the proposed change and then just have everyone agree that that's what happened and disregard anything that would conflict with that. Ryan and Gnuris can still be angry, Shadowclaw can do what Ryan told him to do (making Ryan look weak in front of Gnuris isn't in his best interests) and brought to that other room by Natasha. The basic events can be the same and anyone other than the GM doesn't have to edit anything.

I posted that my character only says it if he got permission to speak. So, whatever blunder you accuse me of, I specifically mentioned that he avoids. That part of my post was entirely disregarded. Then I didn't get a chance to post while I was waiting to talk things out with the GM and instead had my character NPC'd and others already posting as if Shadowclaw did everything Ryan wanted, despite me never posting anything like that.

I don't care if what my character does doesn't work as expected, but I think I have a valid reason to object to this situation. I'd expect you to atleast acknowledge that. If someone disregarded what you wrote and then played for your character, wouldn't you be atleast somewhat annoyed?

I'd let these issues slide for the sake of them game, but it really does break the character as he's meant to be and takes the fun out of the game for me.

But it's not the main problem I have with this, the main issue is that I was basically prompted by the GM to step in. He wrote:



I was glad to have an opportunity to act like a Ragabash. Everything social up to this point was solved by Ryan, so I was glad for an opportunity to finally do something like this too. And with his stats and skills, I was sure that Shadowclaw was one of the "talkers in the group". The fact that he wrote "talkers" made it seem to me that others were welcome to join in, not that Ryan was supposed to do this solo.

I admit that I probably shouldn't have posted the speech outright. But I was bored and with the GM posting once a week, I figured that I'd do it now so as not to slow down the game. Plus Ryan already posted what he was going to say, so I thought that it was fine. I didn't expect Gnuris or Ryan to object (yet still included that line just in case), since the GM's post made it seem like this was just what I was meant to do. So, I was prepared for Shadowclaw to shine. Or atleast attempt to shine. Yet when I attempted to do something, I didn't even get to roll despite the fact that my character should be really good at the sort of thing he did.

And now I'm being chastised both IC and OOC to just be quiet and let Ryan handle everything, like always. Yeah, for once I tried to do something I thought would be interesting and Shadowclaw would be well suited for, he has the skills, attributes, merits and specialties for it. I was prompted to by the GM. In the end, I was basically ignored by the NPCs without any rolls and chastised by the PCs. That doesn't make one feel that what their character does actually matters.

This wasn't even the first time something like this happened. I've been rereading the past posts and remembered that time when Shadowclaw tried to intimidate those gang members. The GM just wrote that they just ignore Shadowclaw and start closing in until some NPC who just happened to be walking nearby called them off. I let it slide that time, but why did I raise Shadowclaw's Intimidate, Charisma and Manipulation if it's just gonna be disregarded like that without even a roll? That's not counting the fact that one of my gifts lowers Intimidate difficulties. Not to mention all the other skills like Expression etc. I even spent the XP I had left to raise them.

I don't see the point of my character being here if this is how it's gonna be. I've been in this game for a long time and overall enjoyed it, but things like this really ruin it for me.

I admit that Natasha's post didn't help in that regard. Saying that Shadowclaw would be dead "if only your leader wasn't so silver tongued", yet Shadowclaw shouldn't be significantly worse than Ryan in that regard. I don't blame her for writing that, it just makes me even less enthusiastic to continue playing as-is.
This message was last edited by the player at 02:34, Wed 15 Feb 2023.

I think it's important to hash these sorts of things out.

One of the main drawbacks of the medium is that it's super easy for things to just get lost in translation along the way.

As a player I don't mind a bit of ret-conning, even if the actual outcome isn't necessarily changed, just the way you arrive there.  The important bit is to be able to address whatever was causing friction, be it something momentary and short term, or something that's been perhaps a more perpetual issue that just hasn't been brought up for whatever reason, and figure out a way to come to an agreement over the issue and how to proceed from that point forward more aware and conscientious.

Yes, thank you, that's exactly what I wanted.
This message was last edited by the player at 10:40, Wed 15 Feb 2023.

I read the following, to update myself on the "what a ragabash is", as I'm not the most familiar with them:

https://www.devrexmu.com/posts...successful-ragabash/

And I think it helped a bit.

The thing I think you should try to remember is that this is the GM's world. If the GM is struggling to post for our benefits, and he says he doesn't have time for something, a lot of times we just need to kind of work it out amongst ourselves as players, so I think this is good, discussing things.

That being clear, a few things don't make sense to me:



Don't forget, you must have missed:



This is the exact same thing you're currently complaining about where the group didn't notice/react to you saying "I only say this IF". Now, you're complaining that I'm moving you against your will, even though I said if. Please: try to remember, that its THAT EASY to misunderstand things in a play by post format, because you yourself are actually talking about it and STILL missed it, right? So you can remove the idea from your head that we're doing it because we don't like you, or have something against you. We're a team, all of us, even you! We're trying to make things all make sense to us, and as you've just demonstrated, this is a REALLY REALLY easy mistake to have made.

About what was posted: I'm comfortable saying that you insisted on speaking and Gnuris nodded his head to allow you, but saying he didn't interrupt you at any point, in a play by post, is sort of silly. We can't exactly jump into the middle of your post. If Gnuris nodded his head, you went full disrespectful, and messed up, I could see how we could still end up exactly where we are with very little retconning to go. However, I could ALSO see how its a learning experience for a ragabash, as he spoke out of turn, and realized that his OWN silver tongue doesn't always get him out of trouble with certain TYPES of people. This could be great, as in the future, perhaps Shadowclaw, our diplomacy savant, decides "Oh heck no, I'm not helping with that guy, he's an X type of guy" and it gives you deep flavor on the character side of things. Instead of just "I'm a perfect diplomat", now you're a great diplomat with hangups, and other things that real people have, that can turn into a really fun character to play!

I'll say it again: I'm comfortable acting like Gnuris nodded his head for you to speak, you misspoke, and now we're in the same position, if it helps your coming to terms with your character's words (which were DEFINITELY a huge mistake). That's an easy fix, and I see no issue with it. I'm just encouraging you to maybe use this as a growth thing (as a character and a player) and let us move forward so we can see you flex those roleplay muscles in the future in a new, more developed, way!

Please read the rest of the text, because you clearly missed the context of that line. I'll highlight the important parts for you:



Nowhere did I mention that you specifically Godmodded my character into going inside that room. Like Ryan said previously, the GM put me there in the post he wrote after you. So I think it's obvious that that's where the issue is. And before that, it was just assumed that Ryan is successful with his attempt and everyone went along with that.

I'm just saying that the GM should've put a hold on the game for a bit before this was solved. That's all.
This message was last edited by the player at 10:12, Thu 16 Feb 2023.

Please re-read what I wrote. It still stands.

You wrote the following:



She didn't actually say that, UNLESS you followed her/gave her permission to lead you along. So my post didn't hurt anything, since you could simply make that not happen by refusing to follow her. I'm pointing out that its the exact same thing that your original complaint is about, and yet: you did it whilst talking about it. VERY easy mistake to make for anybody.

And it points out the fact that when somebody writes "Hey, I don't write this unless you let me, but HERE's a bunch of dialogue to react to", the other players (in the above case: you) feel like it was said no matter what, right? You feel like I said that, even though if you decide not to follow me I didn't. Its quite literally the entire thing you're surprised that we all reacted to when you did it, and now you're doing the exact same thing in reverse, so I'm pointing out that it isn't some big conspiracy to thwart your careful roleplay plans, its just anytime somebody posts relevant dialogue, even if they preface it with "unless you say no" or "only if somebody follows/listens" it is something that the average rpol player (even yourself) reacts to as if it happened. Its so normal for an RPOL player to assume that the dialogue ALWAYS happens that even you just did it to me, and then here in the OOC: its SO normal to do it that you didn't even realize what part I was talking about when I brought it up.

So that should hopefully lay to rest the worry/thoughts that anybody tried to thwart your ideas, or nifty RP angles, and you just sort of realize that posting huge pages of dialogue is ALWAYS going to be reacted to (even by YOU), so going forward we can avoid that. And I think 2 of us now have said we don't even mind assuming Gnuris nodded or allowed you to speak, to clear up your roleplay problems with Shadowclaw "speaking out of turn", so that issue is gone as well, right? So I think its all settled. Its pretty obvious that if you want your dialogue reacted to: post it. If you don't: don't post it. Just post something like "And he waits for permission" before unloading all of that, because you even just demonstrated its virtually impossible to ignore IF its posted. Fair enough?

You don't get the point of what I wrote at all. Doesn't matter if it actually ended up happening IC or not, it still made me feel that way OOC after what happened. That's what I was talking about. It being a conditional action is entirely irrelevant to it. Your character could've just though that to herself at some point or even post it here as an entirely OOC comment and nothing would change.

I shouldn't have mentioned it at all tbh, it's not important in the grand scheme of things.

And I don't know where you got the "grand conspiracy" thing from. At worst, I'm inclined to think that most of you don't really care, don't really read what I post in OOC, think that I'm just angry because my action didn't have the consequences I wanted and just want this to move along as quickly as possible again. And I'm still hoping that it's not so hopeless.
This message was last edited by the player at 12:01, Thu 16 Feb 2023.

Also, this wasn't my main issue. The request to "just change it so Shadowclaw didn't speak out of turn" was a concession I was willing to make to move this along for the sake of the game and make it atleast somewhat tolerable for me.


So, once again, here are the problems I have with the way the scene went BESIDES the fact that I didn't get a chance to post after:

1) I didn't even get to roll. Even if Gnuris was angry about Shadowclaw's insinuation at the end, if Shadowclaw rolled high enough, maybe he still could've been like "you're an insolent whelp, but you do have a point". That could've been the best case scenario in this situation.

2) I've read the old posts and there was a part where Sean talked to Gnuris and it was mentioned that he was impressed with what he said, even if he couldn't just let it slide in front of the others. This was before the comment that got him imprisoned by Gnuris. Surely Shadowclaw could archieve the same thing?

3) Gnuris isn't the only one in the room. All the other high ranking sept members are there. Their reactions aren't even mentioned. They might not be willing to say anything in front of Gnuris, but the speech could've had SOME effect on them even if it didn't on Gnuris. As-is, their reactions aren't even mentioned in the GM's post.

4) What Shadowclaw actually said is hardly even mentioned in the post. And Shadowclaw himself is almost entirely ignored by the NPCs. It's not entirely unrealistic, but it doesn't help. Especially with the "now's the time for the talkers in the group to shine" remark from the GM that I've mentioned previously.

5) I already mentioned that there were previous points in this game where Shadowclaw was trying to intimidate NPCs etc. and it just being ignored without even a roll as if he failed or didn't even attempt it. This was that but on a larger scale.


As for what else Shadowclaw could've done other than do what Ryan wanted, Shadowclaw also has a Ragabash Gift that states that could make them all start laughing and forget what made them angry in the first place unless someone reminds them of it. And it affects everyone in the room. That seems like something that should be relevant, no? Now, I'm not entirely sure if it would actually work on Gnuris, but it's an option I could've taken. In fact, I was thinking about trying that, but I was waiting on the GM to respond to what I wrote in OOC the way he said he would. Yet the game moved on.

My issues are mainly with the way this was handled by the GM. I just wanted to solve this somehow.

Alright lets see if we can muddle through this.



Yes shadow claw asked to speak but as he continued with along post I took poetic license to assume he just carried on. This is something that was really making the scene at least to me.



Ok this was good I highlighted where you in the storyteller's humble opinion started to walk a very fine line You seemed to be coming into this conversation with accusations that Gnuris was intent on killing Sean. Yes, he was angry at him but there was never any killing involved and I am sure that Natasha stated that. At this point you could have just thrown in a roll to aid Ryan if you wanted. Perhaps I could have asked for one for this, but I didn't think it was needed.  As always, I am happy to consider rolls you all think are suitable Just make them and post them below your post. That way we don't have to wait on people and I can choose to use the roll or not.



Here Shadow~claw rebuffed Gnuris's initial suggestion that the pack may be spying for the spirals. This was meant to be aggravating and insulting to see how your pack would react, either with calm (Ryan) or defensive (Shadow~claw). There was no issue with Shadows~claw's reaction to this it is quite natural especially for a proud Garou. If you had stopped it here it would have been best.



This last bit is where you met your character requirements as a Ragabash and even admitted it yourself you overstepped the boundaries. So, all I have done is run a little with this, no requirement for rolls as you told me you expected repercussions. All in all, this was a fantastic piece of roll playing and I loved it. It has been noted in my Honor glory and wisdom table along with contributing to the group character points. I am surprised a little at your reaction with the result. I didn't see a need for any rolls, as it seemed to flow.

Now moving on to the posts following this.

I don't want to exclude Shadow~claw I am happy to have him stay in the room this won't need to be retcon'd as this is the moment for you to use those skills you spent improving. It is all your choice. Natasha has posted quickly, and this could be just her going to the other room, and when she turns to speak to you, but you haven't followed.

  I really want to reiterate that so far you have made this scene.

I know my posting time makes things hard and I apologies for this, but I must admit that I am having trouble seeing what was wrong with the interaction. You played your part to a tee and I don't think that a ragabash would have waited for permission to continue and I don't think a Shadowlord would leave the room. Gnuris's dismissal wasn't a "you must leave" he didn't order you out it was a suggestion by Natasha that he agreed with not a direct order to you, not only that this isn't your sept and Ryan is your leader not Gnuris.

I really think this is starting to become larger than what it should be. I really liked that interaction, and I am keeping it.



Shadow~claw Sometimes I won't use your rolls due to storyline with a need to introduce NPC's or players, but this should never stop you from asking me about situations or making rolls.

This time I have not ignored you and you have not left the room. I have flowed along with your own words of your post about Gnuris being angry, and I have targeted Ryan with that instead of you. If you want to use a gift, then use it and we sort through it as always. I don't want any player to feel un-important or that I am ignoring them. I have a different view on this scene to you and I am interested to see where it goes. We will wait for your in-game post.
This message was last edited by the GM at 17:43, Thu 16 Feb 2023.

As I said I thought you were great in this scene it sadens me that you didn't see it the same way.



You still have a chance to post. Can peeps please hold off until Shadow~claw posts.



As I said I didn't see a need for the roll I have given my reason which is I am using your own words that you knew what you said would irritated him and I was just flowing with that but using it against ryan.



Yes he can the scene isn't finished.

.

I never thought to add those good Idea that would make the scene much more realistic. Thankyou.



Yes, and to me you were shining. I will work harder to write my responses so that you also see this.



I will work to identify that you have taken such an active role in my replies. I thought I had but this shows somewhere that I need work on my storytelling.



Please yes use the gifts they could work Gnuris is as susceptible as any other to gifts. This scene is not over, and I am very interested to see where it goes.



I appreciate the criticism, wasn't my intention, I will take what you have said on and work to improve. I have laid out my reasoning and I am open to all that you have. I like how you play.

I figured an older Ragabash of much higher rank was about to explain where things went sideways.

I did expect to take the heat myself...for the same reason you see coaches and qbs in the NFL take heat from the media.

But the laughing gift seems like a fine idea to me. Those gifts exist for just such a reason.

now it is 4am and I have to get up at 4:30 so I guess will try to get a half hour sleep.

ST: It seems that the issue was caused mostly due to poor presentation of the scene, or atleast the consequences of it. I thought that Shadowclaw was just dismissed without any chance to succeed despite everything that I've mentioned. And it also seems that I wasn't the only one who thought that way. Atleast Ryan (and maybe Natasha too) seemed to think that Shadowclaw just did something dumb that had no positive effect and was on the verge of getting executed by Gnuris. So I guess that's where the confusion started.

I'm glad for your explanation. Thank you for that and I'm sorry if I reacted too strongly.

So, I should post now, assuming that it's right after Gnuris talked and Ryan didn't "attack" Shadowclaw yet?
This message was last edited by the player at 19:41, Thu 16 Feb 2023.

Alright, so I went ahead and posted. I have no problem changing the post if need be.

In reply to Shadowclaw (msg # 247):

Where you want to pick up your post is up to you. You can dodge the dominance blow all of that is up to you. What I see is people making assumptions as you said on the way the scene has been presented. This was why I was posting Gnuris’s motives in my posts as a way to say hey he’s calm just talking and using all his skills to dominate your whole pack for his purposes. I will do my best to improve on being more succinct with scenes moving forward.

No worries...even if you do want an attack vs. Dodge roll, you'll find Ryan more or less checked his swing. It's bludgeoning damage, you'll basically heal it back in seconds, particularly because Ryan is in breed form and you are not.

Also, he told you to play along so he can check his swing...but like a pro wrestler, he wanted you to 'sell the hit'

You could even call it manip+expression to make it look like you'll never disobey again.
This message was last edited by the player at 20:59, Thu 16 Feb 2023.

In reply to Ryan Fox (msg # 250):

Go on roll me a manipulation + brawl Ryan for a checked swing let’s see how convincing your acting is.

...I'll probably need his roll to really sell it...

In reply to Ryan Fox (msg # 252):

Remember -3 dice you were affected by Gnuris earlier Shadowclaw was not

I had 3 successes, plus one if pure breed counts, though I didn't really roll correctly.

Still 3  with reroll. Hand me my oscar!

Still, Manip+expression should be in Shadow's wheelhouse, he should be able to look damn good for the camera if he wants to.
This message was last edited by the player at 21:21, Thu 16 Feb 2023.