O.K. Crew here is the skinny. So far the pack consists of a Lupus Silver fang Gillard, a Homid Ahroun Silver Fang, a Get of fenris ahroun lupus, and what looks to be a Fianna Ahroun Lupus.

A lot of rage here peoples and very little experience with humans It should prove interesting, I look forward to getting things underway.

To the players,

A while ago (last attempt at this game) I was asked to look at the silver tolerance merit (7pt). I have reviewed this and I have looked at the changes WW have made from the first players handbook to the 20th anniversary edition.

I see that it has been changed each time from a complete immunity to silver in the first ed to soak-able agg damage and less gnosis loss in 2nd ed too just soak-able at diff 8 in the 20th anniversary ed.

I trust that WW has been adjusting this on purpose as it was overpowered, but too compromise and to make sure they didn't take this too far as they are prone to do, I am making a house ruling on this merit.

This merit will act as per the 20th anniversary edition rules but with a diff 6 not 8, so the gnosis loss for holding silver will still apply etc. And as always I reserve the right to return this to Diff 8 should this minor change cause an unfair advantage or a deduction to players enjoyment of the game.

I have already adjusted this in the 20th ed .PDF I am supplying to players. Play on and Play well.

From the Story-teller.

OK so I dropped my computer today and the screen has gone buggy I am sending it in for repair so if my posts are short please forgive me as I am using my phone..

Ok We have 6 players I have closed the game I feel this is a good size pack.

Hoping to give some clarity:

Players should clear any specialties with the
Storyteller, who can veto any specialties that are too broad
(such as “guns” for Firearms or “healing” for Medicine) or
that focus solely on game mechanics (“dealing damage”
for Strength or “soak rolls” for Stamina). The player and
Storyteller should work together to express the character’s
concept through specialties.

I am trying to use specialties to really flesh out characters. Please don't make them broad for example

LockJaw:

Suck it up : soak rolls??? Please categorize this further eg soaking silver as you have the merit. or soaking bullets.. This should apply to a category within the category there are a lot of soak rolls made against various things.

Leaf Storm: go for the jugular should be exactly that. If you make a jugular shot then that is why you get the special 10 re rolls.

Tooth and claw could also be a bit broad too I would be tempted to make it one or the other.

This is a good specialty well thought out and not over used: "Papa Bear Strength": When one or more of his allies are in trouble, strength tests to aid them gain the specialty benefits. I view this as catching a truck falling off a bridge with your friend in it.

Feats of strength Lockjaw is a good one too it applies to very specific rolls and will make the character fun too play.

I am sorry that I may seem to be picking on you both but you both have specialties that seem more attuned to getting the most out of the mechanics not the most out of exciting game play.

Just remember a specialty is exactly that.. If your able to use it all the time (soak rolls lockjaw...) then it ain't too special is it.

What there was no comment about this before....

Alright since I am silver tolerant I will be especially silver tolerant I will specialize in soaking silver.

what is a suitable second specialization for stamina??

Do you get two?  The very small blurb RAW seems to say you get a specialty for anything four or above.  Not sure if that is for each dot?

Mainly asking as Nancy has a five so if she's supposed to have two for that, would be good to make sure.

Tireless?  Useful for long stretches of intense activity, like chasing down prey.

I don't mind you taking two (it is a throw back to an earlia version but they just need to be concept based not something to get the most out of the mechanics..

So you're a silver soaker then LJ .. HAHa bad pun..

So...?

In reply to Leaf Storm (msg # 10):

Can you break it down further? E.g

Gripping Bite which would be your specialized at gripping an opponent when you bite them you get the specialist bonus on the attack to grab them and the strength check when they try to break free.

or

Stabbing Claws - you are adept at driving your claws like daggers into an opponent, You wouldn't be able to uses these attacks all the time but when you do they are more effective.

Currently Tooth and Claw as you have it refers to almost any attack you make. in any form bar Homid form, can you see why I say it is too broad.

Your not the only one doing this.. and I am sorry that It takes me soo long to process all the character sheets, and the skills and abilities you have.

If you think that this is un-fair, I sympathize with you but look at it from the other side of the coin. You and the others are already mincing machines of carnage, You don't really need the specialties at all. the specialties are added to give flavor to the game not benefit to you from game mechanics.
This message was last edited by the GM at 19:35, Mon 09 Nov 2015.

Now I need to rethink my specializations I feel like your messing with the concept of my brute force tank.... I should have 2 specializations for strength and 2 for stamina.

I will take "silver soaker" but I'll put it as high tolerance, on the sheet. Is leaper ok as a strength specialization he re-rolls 10 for rolls to make jumps?

Sorry you feel that way Lockjaw.  But I must ask if there were no specializations would you have made Lockjaw the same way? I will hedge a bet of yes. My point is the specialization doesn't make the character it just adds flavor.

And powerful jumper sounds ok it will only help you to jump not kick or run, or do parkor. Just jumps.

Hhhhmmmgrrrr ... just so we are on the same page what does the specialization feats of strength i put down count towards in your mind? I thought that would be for things like throw a truck. Str + athletics.

I understand how Tooth and Claw is too broad - and I would agree with you. However, I feel that you are making it too narrow with having it only apply to certain types of claw OR bite attacks, akin to a specialization within the specialization.

When you look at the books, the specialty prompts are general: striking for Brawl for example (VtM reference). This doesn't say only jabs, or only uppercuts, or only elbows. It says striking. Anytime you make a strike attack the specialty applies because your character has become akin to Bruce Lee status at that.

I would argue the same for Tooth and Claw. If I had to pick between the two, I would go with Claw as Razor Claws are one of my gifts. But I would ask that you consider it be extended to any time my PC uses their claws to attack, whether that be in any of the four forms in which I have claws - as he has specialized in using CLAWS.

Of course, you have the final say. But that is my two cents when it comes to specializations.

Hhhhmmmgrrrr ... just so we are on the same page what does the specialization feats of strength i put down count towards in your mind? I thought that would be for things like pick up and throw a truck. Str + athletics.

I feel like I should comment on this, since I was the one who picked this specialization in the first place and this is something that concerns us all:

Tooth and Claw is one of the fighting styles for werewolves from Werewolf: The Forsaken. It's a martial art specific to werewolves, focusing on the werewolf's natural weapons and fighting as a wolf. Kinda like Kailindo in Werewolf: the Apocalypse, except without the form shifting part. Which I thought was thematically appropriate for Leaf Storm, since he is a Lupus and thus I named his specialization after that.

I really don't think it's too broad, considering that example specializations for Brawling listed are Wrestling, Boxing, Kung Fu, Karate, Kailindo and some others. It would be pretty much the same thing if your character was specialized in Melee weapons and picked Klaives as his specialization.

By your interpretation, said specialization couldn't be Kung Fu or Karate, but something like "Kung Fu Punch", "Palm Strike", "Karate Kick" or rather specific Street Fighter type moves like "Raging Dragon Spin Kick" or "Hadoken". And Melee couldn't specialize in Klaives, but... I dunno, Silver Klaive Slash? I understand that you don't want us to be uber strong, but limiting it like that seems way more boring to me then having Karate as the specialization, since:

1) You would be pushed to use the "Spinning Dragon Kick" as much as you can, in place of normal attacks, even when it wouldn't make sense and would just feel ridiculous and you would be doing pretty much the same thing over and over. You have a lot more opportunities for fun actions with something like Karate.

and

2) I really don't like something like Gripping Bite as a thematic brawling specialization for a character. That seems more on the level of making your Strength specialization "dealing damage" or rather like a specific combat maneuver. Or a Gift. So instead of having your character be a great wolf warrior or a kung fu master, he is now very good at holding things in his mouth, because... he loves to play fetch?

This is just my opinion on this matter. If you have to limit the specialization, then my suggestion is not to do it like this, but instead talk with Leaf Storm and others about how they would envision their fighting style and when would it be appropriate to count it as a specialization. Like, breaking down that door wouldn't be something I would consider appropriate for the specialization, but if he like jumped at the vampire, gripped his shotgun in his teeth and tried to disarm him like that, then that seems awesomely thematic to me. Limit it as appropriate.



That aside, I should probably pick my specializations already.

This is my thoughts exactly. I abhor min-maxers as the point of the game is the roleplay aspect. However, I also have strong feelings about specialties and how I (and apparently you Luke) interpret them.

It is the difference I noted earlier between boxing and simply throwing jabs.

Not to beat a dead horse, but Luke gets me. I see you

Glad we are on the same page here :)

I am one who is happy to compromise we will play it out and see how things fair.  Claws or teeth take your pick.

Done did it.

Lockjaw I thought it applies to the willpower check for feats of strength. because if you succeed in the willpower roll you achieve the feat (at least the strength part). And your strength will be bumped up giving you more dice, for any rolls anyway.


This message was last edited by the GM at 06:56, Tue 10 Nov 2015.

I think specializations need only fit the 'theme' of the character. Those specializations just shouldn't reference game mechanics. Which is why specializing in 'soak' is silly for a stamina specialization, but specializing in 'endurance' is fine.


It's why Ryan's Charisma specialty is 'silver tongue/howl.' If he's talking, it works. Because his primary point as a character is diplomacy. Whether he's selling ice to an eskimo, leading the garou nation, or even having a political debate with an enemy Ventrue, he's prepared and ready to go.

Lockjaw on the other hand is all about strength. So I wouldn't be surprised if his specialization worked on most everything but damage rolls.

I would like to roll with this for a second...

Ryan, If you were the ST and a player had the specializations

Unbreakable with what roll/rolls would the 10's explode so to speak?




and

That sounds like anything that would cause blunt force trauma.  A baseball bat to the face, or getting hit by a truck, maybe getting squashed by something large (e.g. building/tree).

Things like bullets, knives, arrows, etc don't "break" an object, they cut it, so wouldn't apply.

I like that Ryan. So every strength roll.
:)