Yeah, also good since it helps you(the other players) to double check where you got everything from and to quickly calculate it when you use different feats and whatnot.




Yeah! Anna and I, seem to be a pair of grapplers surrounded by archer turrets and magus dice explosions.

And I think that is cool, we keep them busy until the others snipe them. :)
But the enemy are not Orc so he just negated a lot of their favored enemy bonus...

GM forgot my first turn, at least I guess he let me have the stance shift and the Barkskin activated in the last turn. (He let Eherendil to act as well at least.)
Would be cool to have a map to see who is where.
It is hard to position Anna without it.

Okay, folks.  What you saw (or think you saw) and what happened were two different things.  That first attack was a manyshot, so it was two arrows.  That means +24 damage from each arrow.

Half of that bonus was because orcs are his +6 favored enemy and +6 for deadly aim (-3 to hit).

Other than that, he's no where near a broken character.

Sorry for the confusing post, I had problems visualising the scene. I would also like a map to have an idea where everyone is.

That does make it a bit less ridiculous, Aerethion. I thought you were using Gravity Bow and found some sort of crazy damage boost somewhere. Cool.

"07:12, Sun 15 June 2014: Orog #8 rolled 45 using 1d20+25 ((20)) CMD check."

I am not sure what you did here?
CMD is not for roll it is like AC if I hit it I am good and he is grappled.

Anna attacked with standard action, if she hit she should have a free action grapple.
She wanted to move next to the others to give them the AC bonus from her defensive fight style.
This message was last edited by the player at 13:17, Sun 15 June 2014.

Yeah, CMD is like AC so there's no opposed roll. Makes grappling a slight bit easier. That was a 20 though!

Also, the orog can use it's own action to roll it's CMB or Escape Artist vs Anna's CMD(which is probably no where near as high as her grapple cmb) to break out on it's own turn. That said, I never use grappling in a real time tabletop game, it can be a pain in the butt. I figured I'd give it a go here because there's plenty of time to research it.

Like this: http://i.imgur.com/60FoMVi.png
This message was last edited by the player at 17:46, Sun 15 June 2014.

If he would use grapple against Anna to escape that will create an AOO even with improved grapple. It is a big chance Anna will just hit him and grapple him again...
But I hope he should receive the 2 damage what she did to him, and go sleep like all good Orog should...

To add to this:

However, she’s close enough to get a good look at the ‘orc’. It appears to be an orog—half-orc, half-ogre. Unfortunately, she’s also close enough for it to attack back. (She has 10-foot reach with her hair, so she stayed 10 feet away, but the orog can take a 5-foot step to close that distance.)
07:31, Sun 15 June 2014: Orog #8 rolled 35 using 1d20+16 ((19)) to attack Anna.

(As I understood what you were doing, you moved which eliminates making a full attack, so you could either attack with your hair to do damage, or attempt a grapple. You can’t do both this round.)

Anna has a reach of 15, but anyway the orc 5 ft step should create AOO.
To make it clear Anna is using her hair Grab ability to do free grapple after a successful hit with her hair.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:41, Sun 15 June 2014.

If he tries to escape, there is no AoO.

"If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally."
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamema...g/combat#TOC-Grapple

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"(She has 10-foot reach with her hair, so she stayed 10 feet away, but the orog can take a 5-foot step to close that distance.)"

As per the grappled condition, "Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity."   http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamema...ditions#TOC-Grappled

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I am sorry we're giving you this headache of stuff to deal with, Azurak. Grappling is a pain in the butt, but I made sure to do the research before I made a build using it. I'll try and help this stay simple. Anna's main schtick is to make a hair attack with reach which triggers a free action grapple, which also keeps her from gaining the grappled condition when she does it. All the orog has to do is break the grapple and then she has to try and establish a new one again. Her CMD should be much lower than her CMB so it shouldn't be impossible to break out. It's more that she might get a single orog trapped in a field of hair and waste all his turns trying to break out while she slowly hair whips him to death.

In reply to Tatharion (msg # 439):

"Her CMD should be much lower than her CMB so it shouldn't be impossible to break out."

Why should her CMD be much lower than her CMB?

Well, it's higher given adding dex and a base 10 to it... whereas with most feats to boost cmb for a maneuver they add only to CMB and not CMD. Like, I can break out of my own grapples with a 7 for example.

Yes, I did get that mixed up. Just shows you how tired I was.

I'm still confused about Grap and Grapple. They aren't the same thing. Grab is a monster ability. I still can't find anything on Anna's character sheet that gives her the Grab ability.

And Anna listed an attack to do damage and a grapple attempt. They aren't the same thing, which is what confused me. As you pointed out, a Grapple attempt is a 'combat action' against the target's CMD. Only after she grapples can she do damage.

An attack is against the target's AC.

Well it is my fault then, I did listed on the sheet her hair and her unarmed attack both have the grab ability, but true I did not copy in details where she get that. Sorry for that.
I will copy all her abilities into the sheet (It will be very long) if you wish.

OK done, all is on the sheet, sorry for that, I know how painful could be to track this many abilities.
This message was last edited by the player at 04:28, Mon 16 June 2014.

I know it's not much of a consolation, but I really was tired. I only had a few hours sleep in the past three days, so went to bed Sunday night and woke up around noon today.


I've now found the rules Anna was using. She gets grapple from the Graceful Grapple ability of the Tetori. Also, I thought she had her hair from the Witch's Prehensile Hair Hex. I now see that she gets it from the White-Haired Witch archetype. A friend of mine explained where the concept comes from... a Jackie Chan movie that I've never seen. So, yes, her reach with her hair is 15', not the 10' it would have been with the hex.

Anyway, Anna, I still need you to break out where the +18 to CMB and CMD come from. I started it, but only could come up with +8 total.

Time to reexamine your post...
This message was last edited by the GM at 04:40, Tue 17 June 2014.

You asked me to put the explanation into the post, but if you wish here it is again:

Grapple: CMB 36
MONK LEVEL 10  - Tetory can use His monk level as BAB

WIS      8   - Guided weapon I replace STR with Wis

IMPR GRA 2   - Feat

GREATER GRA 2   - Feat

GRAB            4   - Special ability Grab gives you +4 to grapple

W FOCUS         1   - Weapon focus on the unarmed combat should apply due to the "Grab" weapon

ENCH            5   - Greater Magic fang (Unarmed) as well added due to Grab

STONE    2   - Dusty Rose Prism (Ioun Stone) slotted into wayfinder add +2 insight to CMB and CMD

GLOVES          2   - Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver (Grapple) +2 untyped to grapple

Banner    2   - Moral bonus from the Banner of the Ancient kings

Defensive -2  - Defensive fight negative attack modifier in Crane style

That was all, I forgot to add the stone bonus to my CMD as well (above the dodge bonus) Will change the sheet with that...

You are still confusing an unarmed strike with a grapple. They are not the same thing, no matter how much they are interconnected. Unless you know a rule that contradicts what I've read, your Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) and Greater Magic Fang will not apply to your CMB.

The GMF will apply to any damage you make with your grapple.

That greater magic fang is probably a bit too high since we're only 10th level. Should only get up to +2, unless you've got some item to cast it at 20th level I guess.

As for whether it applies, there's this:
"When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll."


As for whether or not the unarmed strike adds to grapple, I have no idea. You'd think it would since it's using your body as a weapon and any body part can be used to make unarmed strikes. On the other hand there's this: "Weapon Focus: Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat."


And also this bit, "Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll."
From here: http://www.paizo.com/paizo/blo...pon-Special-Features

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tldr; It seems that enhancement bonuses don't apply to grapple since that uses a weapon, but you can in fact get weapon focus for grapple. So maybe you can choose 'grapple' as the target for greater magic fang?

Okay, so clearly Weapon Focus doesn't apply because they make a point to say it's one OR the other... not both.

But it looks like Greater Magic Fang will add to it.

I guess the Orog shaman will have to invent an Anti-Grapple spell...

Grappling is pretty awesome for tying up one target, usually a caster type(since melee folks have good str/dex, and skirmish types pick up escape artist). The advantages are inherent though, it's only tying up one bad guy so the rest can just wail away on the grappler.

The disadvantage being that grappler's won't get to make full attacks since they have to spend an action maintaining the grapple each round, so it's usually much slower to take a target out. Pretty much a trade for killing power to lock up a caster or other vulnerable target.

In case anyone was wondering, I won't be using the spellstrike crit ability for my spells as it seems too powerful and may unbalance the game.

In reply to Azurak the Blue (msg # 448):

I think w focus still apply, based on the secound point what you quoted, but only for those attack what was made with the weapon what has the special quality. Annabelle unarmed has the quality so it should apply.
Do I read it wrong?

Based on what was said to me for tripping, W Focus would apply still.

It doesn't based on this, Anna: "Weapon Focus: Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat."

You can choose grapple for weapon focus, which means unarmed doesn't apply it for grappling. Otherwise, why would you be able to choose grapple if unarmed applied it?

There is quite a bit of confusion about grappling and its relationship to the other combat manoeuvres. Tarathion provided a helpful link:-

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5...pon-Special-Features

Grappling is not an attack action. By default, it does not benefit from Greater Magic Fang. There is a feat called Weapon Focus (grapple) which adds +1 to your grapple checks.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/...focus-combat---final

However the presence of this feat may be a holdover from 3.5 D&D and might not have been considered in the change to Pathfinder.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nnre?Weapon-focus

There are a few grapple weapons such as the mancatcher. Presumably a masterwork/magical mancatcher would add its enhancement bonus to the grapple check, although this is never explicitly described.

The white-haired witch's hair attack is not an unarmed strike. It is a natural attack.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classe...s/white-haired-witch

Greater Magic Fang can be applied to the hair. At caster level 10, this gives a +2 bonus.

"Grab" is described as a special attack. As such, I think that it is reasonable for enhancement bonuses and Weapon Focus feat on that natural weapon to also apply to the grapple check. However this is not explicitly mentioned anywhere.

The guided weapon enhancement is a magical enhancement that can be applied to weapons. I am not sure how a witch could apply this to her hair. The guided weapon is not in the Pathfinder ruleset. It was published by Paizo for 3.5, before Pathfinder was released. It has not been transferred into Pathfinder. (Indeed the reason that I don't have weapons with this property is because it is not part of Pathfinder.)

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-...on-property---guided

Some people regard the guided weapon enhancement as overpowered for clerics, druids & monks.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l...hantment-overpowered

Feral Combat Training: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.

Hair is a natural weapon with a reach of 15 currently.

Guided was allowed by the GM.

Permanency + Greater magic fang (Unarmed strike) (lv 20) service - 9100 gold