Um, I do hope I didn't sound like I was calling you out at all!  If so I'm very sorry; that really is all totally built into the world.  It hit me because I started to write up Yetta saying something like, "Allowing that not everyone who looks a certain way is necessarily evil" and then realized that in their universe, that's actually not true and wouldn't make sense to say.

And I can accept that in a world where Good and Evil are actual forces that can be like, tested for and manipulated, and where there are real Demons and Celestials and all that, the idea of a whole race of people that is intelligent but intrinsically on one side or the other is a valid fantasy element.  It's always bothered me, though, and yeah, it might have helped if all of their Evil races weren't so strongly coded as Black.  Totally agree with you that the Orcs are more problematic than the Drow, though.

Anyway!  Mostly I just wanted to pass along their message about getting better, because it is cool.  It's kind of hard not to look at it and say "Finally," because it is too late, but that kind of thing is always too late.

(It also reminds me of the Order of the Stick.  "Dragons: Color coded for your convenience!")

I didn't take your comment as having a go at me  :)  As you say, it is, very much, a 'world' thing.

That said, some times all of us need a bit of a kick up the backside to help us recognize what is right in front of our noses.

That's just sad. Such a shame that today's political correctness has made its way into our fantasy worlds too. I never thought that drow are evil because they are black. They are evil because they are evil. They worship evil gods, enslave other races, etc. <Sigh> I'm not suggesting that WotC shouldn't acknowledge the real world issues of today; I'm just saying it is sad.

----------------------------

It is probably fortunate that white dragons are as evil as black dragons. Dragon slayers should still be PC.

Ironically, I thought that as well :)

I... huh.  It honestly didn't occur to me that this would spark any controversy.  I probably shouldn't respond too much, though I... well, I really want to say that the idea that trying to make our hobby less hostile to large swaths of people is "sad" is something I deeply disagree with, and honestly just don't understand.


...And the point isn't that they're "evil because they're black".  It's that they're black because they're evil.  Yes, you can justify it in the game world, but that deliberately ignores the reality that it is a game world.  If you're justifying things, you've already done it wrong.



Debating whether the dragon thing is a legitimately non-controversial side point to maybe divert things to.  Hm.

I am sorry this is such a wall of text, but it is something I feel strongly about, as you will see below. And again, it isn't meant to offend, or attack, anyone - but sometimes I feel that I have to say my piece.  *grin* it has lost me a few good jobs in my time, but I wouldn't change that for anything.

However, I  ‘ummed and arrh’ for quite  long time before I wrote this post – and it most likely be my last post on the subject.  I, too, think it is sad that TSR feel the need to make those changes -  but that is because I think it is sad that there is still  a lot of racial stereo typing, and discrimination in the real world - and people are still hurt by it.

I have never much liked ‘Politically Correct’ as a statement – mainly because I was taught, as a child, that I should not offend people, casually.  If I did, I was at fault, and I needed to hone my language skills and find another way of saying things.  I was taught that was polite, rather than PC.  Offending people deliberately, is a different matter – and I am more than happy to offend people on purpose if I think it's appropriate.  I choose, however, to use insults that relate to something the person has done, rather than their race of gender –  mainly because it is targeted and thus more effective.  If I am going to be rude, I would rather do it in style, rather than be casual about it 

My view of casual and perceive racism was changed by an experience I had 45 years ago. As a 20 year old, I got a dream job as a private detective, which wasn’t anywhere near as much fun as it was cracked up to be.  One of my jobs was to go and sit in pubs who had a juke box, where the juke box provider hadn’t paid a licence fee to the Performing Rights Society.  That generally involved sitting in a strange pub for an hour, nursing a pint, and surreptitiously making  a note of each record that was played.  This was sent off to the PRS, who would start the appropriate legal action.  One evening I got sent to a club in Soho  (one of London’s ‘sexy’ areas) to make a note of what music was played there.  Didn’t think all that much of it when I got there, walked in got a pint – and a slightly strange look from the barman -  but nothing too unusual about that.  As I sat down and looked around, I was the only white man in the place.  There were a couple of white girls, with skirts up to their arses, but no white girls.  It started to feel a bit uncomfortable.  It got worse, when I realised that I couldn’t recognise a single tune played.  By the time I had finished my pint, I was feeling really uncomfortable – and got up and left.  Afterwards, on reflection, I remembered that no-one had said anything unpleasant to me, no one – apart from the quizzical barman – had spoken to me at all and I had been left alone to my pint.  No one had even looked at me in a strange way.  I had just been ignored – exactly like I was in every other pub when I deliberately isolated myself.

That discomfort was all in my head.  I eventually came to the conclusion that, on that night, I had had a very small taste of what some black people feel much of the time.  I didn’t enjoy that feeling, and I really don’t want to be responsible for those feelings in others – even unintentionally.

I think, in the real world, there are still many black people who feel that discomfort – and they have a case, because the associations of White-Good and Black-Evil (among other things) are everywhere to help reinforce it.  The first two examples that spring to mind are Black/White magic  and (perhaps because I work in IT) Black Hat Hackers Vs White Hat Hackers.  If changing the way the rules are presented helps reduce that discomfort, and we lose a few of our favourites -  well so be it.  I have just about got over the shock of finding out that Thor is female in modern avenger movies – I can manage with a reworks Drow.

I am not going to get into the effects of discrimination proper, which is something completely different and needs to be stamped out completely.

Maybe I didn't explain well enough why I think it is sad. The sad part is that anyone would automatically assume that drow were made black because they are evil and that was a deliberate racial slur.

It makes sense for drow to be black because it provides an advantage in the underdark. (Presumably all fair-skinned drow were easily hunted to extinction by enemies or predators because they couldn't hide as well in the underdark as their black cousins. That's just natural selection at work. I suppose they could have been dark blue instead. I've heard that dark blue is supposed to be even better for hiding in the dark than black is. Or dark grey, perhaps?)

I would argue that it is darkness that is associated with evil and light is associated with good in D&D, rather than black and white. And by dark and light I am referring to illumination, not skin pigmentation.

Just out of curiosity, though - are there any other evil races that are black in D&D? Plenty of evil black monsters, of course, especially those with night or shadow in their names. Plenty of evil priests and necromancers in black robes, of course, and good priests and paladins wearing white. (Let's face it, cowboy movies were pretty popular back when D&D was first invented, and their villains always wore black!)

Oh, I don't think that there was any deliberate racism in having the Drow as black skinned.  But then, as I said earlier, I hadn't really drawn that association, until it was pointed out.

In this particular case, Hamin's comment certainly had racist overtones -  in that he was disparaging a whole race with  'people that look like her' - again something that wasn't intentional and I hadn't noticed until it was pointed out to me.

I do, however, think there is a long-standing association between Black/Dark = Bad and Good/White/Fair = Good. perhaps not particularly in D&D, but in the wider world -  you pointed out with 60s/70 cowboys & black robed evil cleric or the Black Hat Hackers and Black magic from my example.

I also know that one of the  main problems of 'Giving Offence' is often not the intention -  but the perception.  I know that I always bristled when the Americans (in particular) used 'Brits' to describe people from Britain -  mainly because it had been used disparagingly by groups like the IRA.  I knew it wasn't meant in the same way,  but it took me a long time to come around to it.  TBH, it still rankles slightly today.

I think there is a lot of real racial discrimination in the world today, although a lot less than when I was young.   Some of it is deliberate, some cultural and some has been institutionalised.  For Example, Some research carried out a little while ago, had candidates sending in two identical CVs for jobs - except for the name.  CVs with English sounding names were invited to interview, while the equivalent CVs with Asian names were rejected.

And I think those general associations (Black=bad) etc get played up in that.

So for me, if it helps a few more people feel comfortable with  our game -  I am all for those changes.  Much in the same way as I was in favour of getting rid of Chain Mail Bikinis, and when D&D got rid of the different ability limits/bonuses for Males/Females.

Oh gods ... I was shaking my head at the TV and happily convincing myself that at least on RPOL we're all gamers - unless someone wants to share, the only thing we know about a user here is what name they chose for themselves ... they could be any gender, race, sexual preference, whatever and it doesn't matter at all, just grab those dice and roll for initiative !

Yes, I can see the bias inherent, and while that's true of all classic fantasy novels (Tolkien's Dark Riders, Black Uruks, Black Speech for starters), I don't think there is any argument here - we all seem 'on the same page' ... maybe I hadn't seen our game that way myself but now I'm looking at it with a different lens I can certainly see why people would.

In D&D you need someone for the heroes to fight.  Easy to spot the demons/devils/anything trying to tear you to shreds with its teeth.  Drow were a great alternative to orcs - turned the old classical Greek ideal that beauty = good, ugly = evil on its head, cos Drow were beautiful and evil, not to mention quick, clever, powerful ... and do happen to be dark-skinned ... but yes we do rather seem to have that light/white vs dark/black theme going for a long while now.

To be honest, as I said to another player once in another game, if they were terrified of the mere mention of spiders then I was more than happy not to use spiders in my game - there's plenty more protagonists in the play book for me to choose from.  By the same token, it doesn't really affect things that much if the foe are drow or orcs or mind flayers or human or zombies (it's all about the relative threat = appropriate encounter level), so as GM I can mix and match.

In Legends, this second Act with the Dark Gods running the show was designed to turn things around so the Underdark (leafing through the available options, Drow, orcs, undead and a sprinkling of lycanthropes leapt out) comes to the surface, takes power and the traditional 'good guys' that are now beneath the yoke ... and no, that doesn't make anything better if that's going to offend anyone.

But yes, in the end game for this second Act there's Drow.  Lots of Drow.  But not as in waves and waves of them charging at you waving swords and screaming, though if you're not careful it could come to that.  As Hamin says, the trick we as players/GMs should strive not to give offence and at least with this group I'm confident we can do that.  And if we do look at things twice, that's not necessarily a bad thing either.

In the next phase of this game, Legends Act 3, it will be a little different.  I'd be lying if I said I actually planned it that way to avoid any perceived discrimination, but looking at it now it certainly does.  And hopefully it's a lot scarier because of that.  Cue evil grin though slightly nervous cos I need it to live up to that promise.

But I can't let the discussion pass without hearkening back to Hamin's original comments on a certain 'Racial Preferences Table' from 1st Ed (p18 - I had to look it up) which guaranteed nobody liked Half-Orcs except other Half-Orcs !  "Sorry it says here that I have to treat you with antipathy.  Soon as I find a dictionary I'll get right on that."

Black = evil, white = good. That's about clothing choices, not skin colour. I sincerely hope it is, anyway!

If WotC decides that drow skin colour was really dark purple, not black, I wouldn't have any problem with that at all.

It.. doesn't have to be deliberate to be racism.  I don't really think that the early D&D designers were intending Orks as a white supremacist dog whistle.  (I do believe Tolkien was, though - that's actually pretty well researched, though they were meant to be Mongolians, not African.)  But I also think that it absolutely becomes deliberate racism when you're aware of it and continue to do things that way.  You can only go so long saying, "I'm aware that this is hurting people, but I liked it before I was aware of that and that's more important to me" before you have to admit that you just don't care about the people it's hurting.  (And I don't mean you, Brugar, I mean it in the generic sense.  English is a beautiful but very sloppy language.)


I personally find Drow more misogynist than racist, and I don't think that's on WotC's list of things to address.  Someday, maybe, they'll get there.


Sure, sure.  That's practically just science, if you completely ignore the reality that virtually everything we've ever found that lives underground is super pale.  Don't get me wrong; it's a valid rationalization.  But it's a rationalization where we shouldn't even need one.

The underlying issue has nothing to do with the literal colors used in the game.  Drow could be bubblegum pink without solving the problem, and Orks, obviously, tend to be green, though they are regularly drawn with Black bone structure, hair, and other features.  The problem is frankly in the whole concept of an intelligent race that is inherently evil. (And also, in the case of Orks, brutish and violent and smelly and not as smart as anybody else.)  How is "All Drow are evil because they worship evil gods and do evil things" any different from "All Mexicans are evil because they're a bunch of rapists and thugs"?  How about "All Orks are evil because they're a bunch of rapists and thugs", which is, in fact, what we're given in the system?


And that.  D&D has that everywhere - goblins, kobolds, orks, drow... the landscape is just littered with people that are just readily identified as Cool To Murder Because They're Bad.  And that really is the reason for it.  The heroes need to murder things, so there have to be things for them to murder, and intelligent enemies are more interesting so... QED.

And sure, this does apply to the Dragons, too.  To be able to just glance at a thousand-year-old super-intelligent being and know its moral philosophy based on the color of its scales is absurd.  Breath weapon?  Absolutely.  Where it falls on the Myers-Briggs?  That's just lazy writing, at best.

I'll just point out (because it's my One True Love) -- Earthdawn did all of that without relying on evil racial stereotypes.  There are cultures that are definitely bad guys, but even that doesn't mean everyone who lives there is necessarily bad.  D&D could have done that, too.  There could very easily have been a broadly evil, Lolth-worshipping, slave-trading, underground society without having to make them all "Dark elves."  Personally, I think it would have been more interesting.  Which, I guess, is one of the reasons why Earthdawn is my one true love.


BUT after all that I really do want to clarify that I don't mean any of this as a criticism, or even a critique, of this game.  Like I said, the whole thing struck me in the first place... well, really, I suppose, because WoTC had just put up that message so it was probably more on my mind, on top of all the real world reasons why they put up that message... but more immediately because I started to write something about Yetta responding and realized that that didn't make any sense.  Because in the world our characters have, Drow are evil and it makes perfect sense to have a problem with "people who look like that."  But I'm glad to see the company's at least making noises about changing going forward.

... I think she's saying we need more nazis in this game as protagonists.  Possibly zombie-nazis. :P

The thing with most traditional games is that in order for someone to win, someone else has to lose.  Oddly enough, economics works much the same way.  RPGs turned that about, with players cooperating and GM adjudicating (contrary to popular belief they're not all out to get you) ... and the hordes of evil monsters who were the 'losers' became an abstract.

I've never bought into the "entire race is evil, says so in the monster manual" argument - but the protagonists the PCs fight certainly should be.  Take alignment out of it and it breaks down into a competition for scarce resources - what's good for me may be bad for you but we want those lands/that gold etc for myself/family/kingdom and on up (reference pretty much all of history at this point) ... introducing that sort of moral dimension makes it a lot more uncomfortable.

Ah, the innocence of our youth when it was "Orc ! Attack ! Huzzah !"

Not sure that amoral Horrors make things better ... at least you can understand/empathize with other humanoids with about the same number of limbs, and might feel regret for what "was necessary" (if playing alignment right and by right I mean as I think it should be done) but once the aliens starts bursting out of chests it's just screaming and running and dying.  It was it or me.  No thinking or morality required.  Can't tell the good guys from the bad, just who's left standing.

Aside - contrast Ender's Game with Starship Troopers.  Different takes on much the same subject.

But to my mind substituting aliens/otherwordly creatures is really just sleight of hand - we made the problem go away by giving it a new name/painting it a different colour.   No, they're not devils at all, they're ... baatezu !  But don't touch them, the paint's not dry yet ...

This game ... (s'okay, wasn't feeling criticised - I appreciate this is a discussion on RPGs in general)... the people/things you are pitted against will definitely and demonstrably be the bad guys, regardless of whether anyone else who looks like them is or not.  :>

I think we are all on more or less the same page now :)

This game is OK, the DM and Players are not being deliberately racist, and we don't mind, to one extent or another, if the rules change somewhat.

And as a bonus:-

And Hamin (The character) will try not to make any more casually racist comments.


Sorry - but I felt we were going around in circle.
This message was last edited by the player at 14:37, Tue 30 June 2020.

Oh no, it's been very useful ... I think 'should I change something in what's to come' and then I think 'oh yes, that makes it worse ' (from a 'the players won't like that' perspective)! <evil grin>  But if anyone does want to discuss further, my PMs are always open.  :>

In reply to Skald (msg # 35):

Sorry.  I have been finding this a difficult conversation.  It is something I feel strongly about, as you can probably tell from my earlier posts, and something I have spent a long time working towards - in my own small way.

However, I also find that having been trapped indoors for months (While I am not in the highest risk Covid  category, I am quite high up that list) stuck in front of the same computer all day long - I am getting very tetchy and 'sensitive'.  I also know that when I feel like this, it is better for me to disengage from the conversation.

*grin*  That is why I stopped participating in the RPoL general threads years ago, and why I de-friended most of the people that I know on FB :)  Although they can follow me through my later-Ego -  Buck the little Blue Duck - who has his own FB page.

Moving to PT work and then being 'trapped' indoors has been hard!   Just too many things happening close together :)

Not at all !  It is a difficult conversation and while I can usually avoid those by holding up the "it's a game !" card, this isn't one of them ... but it's also a problem that can't be solved by a few quick posts.  And I'm very much a firm believer that no-one should be made to do anything they don't want to do - so PMing covers off on that.  :>

Whereas I'm feeling guilty that I'm quite enjoying lockdown.  If it wasn't for the worldwide sicknesses and deaths and all the job losses, it'd be great. :<

I've only been out a couple of times in the last three and a bit months (once for a flu jab, another time to do a tip trip as we don't get rubbish collection), but then I was working from home a few days a week anyway beforehand and I've been putting all my levels into the Hermit class for as long as I can remember now.  And I didn't even make a start on FB. <grins>

Though I am finding I have nowhere near the free time I thought I would have (I save four hours per day commute when working from home) ... my to-do list seems to be getting longer !

In reply to Skald (msg # 37):

TBH, I think that was part of my problem.  I was just learning to work part-time and structuring my work, so that I could start getting on with other things, when the lock down came into force - with extra enforced home working and the prospect of it staying as home working for the rest of my remaining  (admittedly short) working life.  Who the hell is going to pay me to go see my learners, when I have just proved that I can do the job just as well sitting behind a computer screen?  :(

And I still can't get the non-working activities up and in place.

I know it is temporary, and I know it is for good reasons - but, right at the moment, that doesn't help :)  I am even so far ahead in my game planning, I don't dare plan more nasty stuff for my players.  I have a whole war to sort out first!

Life is a pain some times -  but it works itself out in the end, and there will be a better life to come.  It just ain't here yet :)   However, I thought you all deserved an explanation for that  little outburst.

That's going a bit far. None of us would accept the suggestion that all Mexicans, not even most Mexicans, are evil. Nor any other nationality or real-world race. That's just not part of human nature in the real world, not for the vast majority of people anyway.

But in a fantasy world why shouldn't the vast majority of drow be written as being evil? If there are any non-evil drow deities I'm not aware of them, so presumably the vast majority of drow worship evil gods and do evil deeds, particularly towards other races. Yes, I accept there can be non-evil drow, but in D&D they are definitely the exception. OK, if people think that drow shouldn't be black in D&D because it might be interpreted as a racial slur, fine, change the drow skin colour to something else. Problem solved. (Albino drow? Technically feasible, I agree, but not going to help matters at all.)

I don't see orcs as a racial slur either. If there were any Neanderthals still alive today we might have a problem, I admit. In D&D Orcs are presented as the 'kill you and eat you' type of evil (I can't actually recall them being presented as rapists in any games or stories I have read, but I suppose that could well be the unspoken assumption behind the proliferation of half-orcs in these fantasy worlds), so I don't see that as any sort of parallel for any group of people in the real world. In D&D orcs are presented as a constant threat to humanity (and even more so to elves), so heroes risking their lives to fight them is a noble ideal, rather than a case of "heroes need to murder things".

I'm sorry, and totally understand, Hamin.  I'll move replies to PM, because I do feel there's still a lot to talk about here.

Hmm.... on second thought I've changed my mind.  It probably is better to just leave this where it lies.  I don't understand your viewpoint, Brugar, but I don't imagine I can talk you out of it, either.

But!


This is veering, I think, comfortably back away from the real topic here and I do have to defend Earthdawn.  It's a moral imperative.

Substituting a coherent race of aliens as Evil would, I would quite agree, be totally the same thing.  The Horrors aren't that, though - they are highly individual, with an extremely broad range of... everything, from the Dread Iota (which is a virus) to Ristul (which is basically the idea of corruption given form...ish) to Ubyr (basically a really big worm) to Nemesis (who totally presents as a person and gets involved in politics and you could actually sit down and have tea with, though that would be a Bad Idea) to... um, OK, I'm not going to list them all.  They're closer to the Lovecraftian horrors, and also share with those the point that they're not actually presented as Evil in the same way things in D&D are.  They're predators, and they're alien in a way that is very bad for people, because... well, again, they vary, but some of them eat people, and some of them eat pain, or despair, or what have you.  So they're evil from our perspective, but from theirs, there's a very good argument that they're just grabbing a snack while the buffet is open.

That, I can definitely agree with. We don't really know anything about each other, in the real world, so it is probably impossible for us to really understand each other's point of view. Clearly none of us intentionally seeks to offend other players, in this game or in our role-playing more generally - if I do accidentally cause offence in future, please accept my apologies in advance.

*snort*  Do they still show Trumpton ?


*snicker*  And this is why Dwarves can't select Accountant as a prestige class !

Please refresh my memory, what do we know about these clouds? Has anyone touched them?

Nope.  We think they are either filled with Giants' Farts -  or they are some sort of 'engine' that holds the flying-castle up in the air.

I am more than happy to let you be the first person to try and stick your head in and have a sniff ...

Hard pass. But I do want to investigate but that really isn’t my jam as a sorcerer. I cast spells. A lot of them, and thanks to the GM, in a fun way.