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Miscellaneous Rules Discussion.

Posted by Cripple XFor group 0
Cripple X
GM, 106 posts
Fri 26 Jun 2015
at 19:36
  • msg #1

Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

Rules discussions that don't quite fit into a particular flavor of Fate or pertain to a particular setting go here.
Tzuppy
player, 55 posts
Fri 26 Jun 2015
at 19:40
  • msg #2

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

What can one do about boring (endless) fight vs. fight rolls in a duel?
Cripple X
GM, 107 posts
Fri 26 Jun 2015
at 19:52
  • msg #3

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

If your problem is with the skill, use other skills. I've allowed a player to use, IIRC, Empathy in a duel to represent him setting an example for and making a connection with the people who were watching him fight. The player really knocked it out of the park. He gave a great speech and managed to squeak out a victory a few turns later. Before that move he had been getting beaten badly and was on the ropes. Needless to say the people really took a liking to him after that.

If your problem is too many dice rolls to resolve a fight, that's a little tougher. Fate conflict all works off attrition. It can drag on sometimes with equally skilled combatants. Two choices here, either give less stress boxes and/or consequences OR give more Fate Points so people will use them to go for bigger hits.
Alyse
player, 45 posts
Pretty, witty, and gay
(married since 2011!)
Fri 26 Jun 2015
at 20:29
  • msg #4

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

Tzuppy:
What can one do about boring (endless) fight vs. fight rolls in a duel?


Provide your players with interesting scene and situational aspects they can invoke.

Get them to create advantages and overcome obstacles using cunning and panache.

You as GM control pacing, so quickly concede any fight that threatens to get boring.

    GM: Vader concedes his defense of the Death Star, with the caveat that his TIE Fighter tumbles out of control into space and he escapes the destruction.

    Han's player: You're all clear kid, now let's blow this thing and go home!

Nintaku
GM, 28 posts
Fri 26 Jun 2015
at 20:40
  • msg #5

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

I'd very much like to point you to these two articles, originally written for the Dresden Files RPG, that I just recently found. They go into exactly this discussion, and you just need to replace "DFRPG" with "Fate" in your head.

The Fate Combat Paradigm: http://www.rickneal.ca/?p=621
Making Losing Fun: http://www.rickneal.ca/?p=798
Tzuppy
player, 58 posts
Sat 27 Jun 2015
at 00:19
  • msg #6

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

Nintaku, I recall Making Failure Awesome from main book, just that wasn't a problem here. I'm also very familiar with Dresden Files, so I'll read both of these articles tomorrow.


The problem was that I had a rookie player and by the time it turned into a duel, the NPC already took "Can't run" as a consequence and I ruled that it was too afraid to do anything strategic. Besides the NPC was a Thri-kreen, which was supposed to be quite scary just with its 4 arms.
Tzuppy
player, 59 posts
Sat 27 Jun 2015
at 00:36
  • msg #7

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

Setting was an island where the elf PC went out to hunt Thri-kreen. It's actually the same setting that is described on A Spark in Fate Core thread.

Anyway the crew was at the meeting with the owner of their ship and I, playing the captain, delegated the meeting to senior officers (the PCs). I let them decide who wants to attend the meeting and the only PC that opted out was the elf "acquirer". The player (she) said that her character (he) went Thri-kreen hunting. I ruled that to be a compel of "I want to eradicate Thri-kreen" aspect and gave her a Fate point.

Since this was only an introductory fight for a rookie, I ruled that their ship would arrive in most dramatic moment, either to save his skin or to witness the victory.

For half the fight I did things right. He snuck up on Thri-kreen (Stealth v. Notice) and once she won the roll I gave her "High ground" advantage and initiative. She burned both when he leaped among them, invoking "Two weapons fighting style" stunt and rolled 4 shifts on (first) Fight v. Fight roll. I decided this is more than enough to one-shot the first Thri-kreen (out of 3) and decided that after this they'd fight as individuals rather than as a unit (which actually makes them more dangerous, I think). Then it was their turn to attack. On their (second) Fight v. Fight roll they rolled so poorly that I let him inflict damage. I didn't want one more one-shot, though, so I had checked off a 3-stress box and gave the Thri-kreen "Can't run" consequence. I also ruled that the final Thri-kreen would run for its life. The player, however, decided to spend a Fate point to have fleeing Thri-kreen change its mind and return hopefully after her character finished the wounded one off. I liked that a lot, but this is where things started to go wrong.

On third Fight v. Fight roll she scored either +1 or -1 shift (can't remember) and she refused succeed at a cost offer, opting for a simple miss. Then my Thri-kreen attacked (fourth Fight v. Fight roll) for a tie and this time I opted for a simple miss. Two reasons why i did this. First I my Thri-kreen was low on stress boxes and second I wanted to allow the other Kreen to have a relatively clear shot. Then the other Kreen attacked (Archery v. Notice), but the attack roll was so bad that all the effect was that the elf noticed was shuriken flying by his head.

I was thinking what to do for other Thri-kreen to create an advantage, but by that time the player was visibly bored and we have spent the time we had for mostly character creation session. She offered to end the fight with conclusion that wounded Thri-kreen was killed and the other got away and I accepted (jumped) the offer.
Nintaku
GM, 29 posts
Sat 27 Jun 2015
at 01:58
  • msg #8

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

There's plenty of opportunity to Create Advantages there, even if the group is terrified. Once they realized they were being attacked, the surviving Thri-ke... Thi-kre... bugmen could have created advantages for themselves or each other: Four Weapons, Flanking (or putting Flanked on the hunter), and Protect the Colony! spring to mind right off the bat. Maybe one of them could have tried to intimidate the hunter into giving an opening to the others, or you could invoke their Protective Chitin to reduce incoming damage. In particular, this point right here:

Tzuppy:
hen my Thri-kreen attacked (fourth Fight v. Fight roll) for a tie and this time I opted for a simple miss. Two reasons why i did this. First I my Thri-kreen was low on stress boxes and second I wanted to allow the other Kreen to have a relatively clear shot. Then the other Kreen attacked (Archery v. Notice), but the attack roll was so bad that all the effect was that the elf noticed was shuriken flying by his head.


Bugman 1 could have rolled Create an Advantage intending to make a "Clear Shot" aspect for his buddy's Archery roll, who then would have had a +2 bonus.

I've noticed it can be hard to spot those moments during play, though.
jait
GM, 37 posts
Tue 25 Oct 2016
at 10:28
  • msg #9

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

Has anyone out there run a game using Brendan Conway's "Damaged Aspects" approach, as detailed in Magpie Games' Fate Codex (Vol 2, Iss 6)?

I am considering putting a game together that uses this...  basically doing away with the character stress tracks and assigning stress-tracks to each of the character Aspects, forcing them to change and modify the Aspects to represent status changes as the story progresses.

As the Aspects "take damage", they get warped and broken, representing the evolution of the character.    A character might start out as HIGH PRIEST OF THE AZURE SIGN, but through damage to the Aspect, become instead an ITINERANT PRIEST OF THE AZURE SIGN, and, if enough damage is done to the Aspect, become even FORMER PRIEST OF THE AZURE SIGN...

The point is largely that the characters change through game and their Aspects should change pretty fluidly to represent what they've been through.
This message was last edited by the GM at 17:24, Tue 25 Oct 2016.
jollygrin
player, 8 posts
Tue 25 Oct 2016
at 14:52
  • msg #10

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

I haven't, but that sounds cool.
steelsmiter
player, 16 posts
Sat 22 Jul 2017
at 06:27
  • msg #11

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

So I'm thinking about a Zombie Apocalypse hack, and I was reading over Fate Core's System Toolkit. I was looking at Gear Aspects and I thought "What about an Ammo track based on Shoot or Craft?"

I'm thinking you could use it for any time you would normally suffer stress, but also for any time you fail Shoot, you could suffer the number of shifts to Ammo stress.
This message was last edited by the player at 06:30, Sat 22 July 2017.
Nintaku
GM, 42 posts
Sat 22 Jul 2017
at 06:51
  • msg #12

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

That sounds like a really smooth idea, though I might suggest instead of just "when you fail to Shoot you take Ammo stress", you could instead take Ammo stress to Succeed at a Cost. It would certainly make the characters into more action hero types, for a little while, but it would also replicate them using more resources to turn a missed attack into a sure kill.
steelsmiter
player, 17 posts
Sat 22 Jul 2017
at 16:04
  • msg #13

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

Nintaku:
That sounds like a really smooth idea, though I might suggest instead of just "when you fail to Shoot you take Ammo stress", you could instead take Ammo stress to Succeed at a Cost.

I just take that as a given. I play games that do that already too much, and don't really formally distinguish there's a difference.

quote:
It would certainly make the characters into more action hero types, for a little while, but it would also replicate them using more resources to turn a missed attack into a sure kill.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was going for.

I'm also thinking about scrapping Resources and adding a Barter Track for Rapport, but I could just as easily keep using Resources for it.
Tzuppy
player, 66 posts
Sat 22 Jul 2017
at 16:33
  • msg #14

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

Better way to handle running out of ammo is to use Notice to create an advantage.
steelsmiter
player, 18 posts
Sat 22 Jul 2017
at 18:50
  • msg #15

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

It would be, but I'm trying to create a disadvantage, not an advantage.
Nintaku
GM, 43 posts
Sat 22 Jul 2017
at 18:59
  • msg #16

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

For a zombie apocalypse scenario, it definitely feels more appropriate to have a stress track slowly dwindling away than using the Notice Skill. That would imply you've Noticed that the enemy is running low on ammunition, but if the enemy is an unending horde of zombies, that doesn't make much sense. That would work better for a Wild West game, I think.

Also, that Barter track seems like a good adaptation for the apocalypse scenario, too. Resources is designed more as a sort of fixed thing, where you have a steady income and need to know if something you need to buy is within your means right now. A Barter stress track would be another thing constantly dwindling away, that you'd need to take action to replenish.
Tzuppy
player, 67 posts
Sat 22 Jul 2017
at 22:51
  • msg #17

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 15):

Why not give zombies a Notice rating? Or two Notice rating, one for heroes running out of ammunition and the other for noticing warm bloodied meal hiding in the bushes?
steelsmiter
player, 19 posts
Sun 23 Jul 2017
at 01:14
  • msg #18

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

Leaving aside the notion that giving them two notice ratings doesn't make sense, running out of ammunition seems incidental to a zombie attack, not causal to it. But it's true zombies often notice loud or semi-loud noises and notice isn't out of the question. But giving zombies notice is unrelated to giving the players a limited resource that breaks the assumptions of Core.

In any case, giving the zombies a notice just sets the difficulty of passive opposition to Stealth, and when they fail (or as noted, Succeed at a Cost) you basically have this:

  • Foreshadow some imminent peril. The players are already in peril, irrelevant
  • Introduce a new wrinkle. I'm sorry, what's a wrinkle in comparison to a pack of zombies? So what if they found out about a necromancer, that doesn't solve the problem of representing limited ammunition
  • Present the player with a tough choice. Valid but unrelated to using up ammunition or damage without placing a weapon related consequence, which a stress track would do
  • Place an aspect on the PC or the scene. Like the one a stress consequence on a weapon would make? :D
  • Give an NPC a boost. Nothing for or against this one, except that it seems narratively more related to the NPC's fortune than the PC's misfortune, which is what I'm trying to emulate
  • Check one of the PC’s stress boxes. Exactly what happens with having a new stress box.


Basically I'm looking for a predefined Succeed at Cost and fiddling with Notice doesn't give me that as efficiently as just having them mark the stress box.
This message was last edited by the player at 01:15, Sun 23 July 2017.
Tzuppy
player, 69 posts
Sun 23 Jul 2017
at 01:32
  • msg #19

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

steelsmiter:
Foreshadow some imminent peril. The players are already in peril, irrelevant

Mind you, I strongly disagree with this one. In any post-apocalyptic setting you can always up the stakes or at very least introduce a new threat unrelated directly to end of the world. For instance, a living villain might want to detonate a nuke killing all the living and dead in who-knows-how-wide radius. Or go for anything from 28 Days/Weeks Later.
This message was last edited by the player at 01:33, Sun 23 July 2017.
Tzuppy
player, 71 posts
Sun 23 Jul 2017
at 01:45
  • msg #20

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

And what about Resources/Stash/Supply skill which you need to overcome occasionally or run out of ammo?
This message had punctuation tweaked by the player at 01:46, Sun 23 July 2017.
steelsmiter
player, 20 posts
Sun 23 Jul 2017
at 02:09
  • msg #21

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

quote:
Mind you, I strongly disagree with this one. In any post-apocalyptic setting you can always up the stakes or at very least introduce a new threat unrelated directly to end of the world.

None of that is false, yet foreshadowing a separate while they're already in a situation where they run out of ammo is pretty much irrelevant when they're already in peril. They can cross that other bridge when they get to it, or at least away from the current peril, where they have a chance to acknowledge and focus on the thing you foreshadowed.

quote:
For instance, a living villain might want to detonate a nuke killing all the living and dead in who-knows-how-wide radius. Or go for anything from 28 Days/Weeks Later.

Yeah, but the players aren't going to find that out by encountering random zombies--At least not during the encounter, that's for Investigate later. In both situations, foreshadowing has nothing to do with resolving ammo depletion. That's why it's irrelevant, not because it's irrelevant in general.

quote:
And what about Resources/Stash/Supply skill which you need to overcome occasionally or run out of ammo?

I'm dropping Resources in favor of Rapport for gaining a Barter track, but I'll have a Survival skill that sort of works like craft, but also something like Investigate for finding natural stuff that can help you.

Survival (or Shoot)can replenish Ammo by reloading casings, or Barter by making hand tools, poultices, and so forth. Investigate will do the same by being a stand in for looting.
steelsmiter
player, 21 posts
Mon 24 Jul 2017
at 00:46
  • msg #22

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

Next issue: I'm thinking about radiation being a risk around military bases and nuclear power plants. On the most part it's to be avoided--I want to institute a Physique Defense to avoid taking stress when you're exposed to it for too much...

But that's not all. I also want players who succeeded to have some sort of vision where they know something about what's in store for them and the party (that foreshadowing that was talked about earlier), and I want players to be able to take a magical aspect (System Toolkit uses Shadow Step and Armor of Light) although probably not more than one per character...

Any glaring issues with this (other than the obvious one of magic being an odd institution in a zombie apocalypse)?

Also, should I allow players to take a magical aspect at character creation?
jait
GM, 45 posts
Sun 27 Jan 2019
at 15:27
  • msg #23

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

How do you folks deal with Implied Aspects?  By this I mean elements that were stated in the scene description but weren't explicitly defined as a Situation Aspect.

You're in the large front foyer of the city's biggest opera-house.  The floor, a great marble expanse that seems to go on for miles, has been polished so much that you can see the unblemished reflection of the great crystal chandelier that dominates the ceiling.  There are two giant curved stairwells--one on either side--that lead to the second-floor, where two men in black uniforms stand waiting.  There is a single desk set up in the middle of the foyer, behind which a woman in a black pencil-skirt and harsh black bangs plays idly on her cel-phone.

Scene Aspects:
GREAT CRYSTAL CHANDELIER
SWEEPING STAIRWELLS
THIS PLACE IS AN ECHO-CHAMBER


If I want to use fact that the floor has an almost mirror polish, should I really have to roll to create an aspect for it?  It's already been stated.   I'm not even discovering it.
engine
player, 17 posts
Sun 27 Jan 2019
at 16:54
  • msg #24

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

In reply to jait (msg # 23):

No, you wouldn't necessarily have to roll to establish that aspect.
Nintaku
GM, 46 posts
Sun 27 Jan 2019
at 20:18
  • msg #25

Re: Miscellaneous Rules Discussion

Part of how aspects work is that they exist, regardless of whether or not they've already been named, so long as something in the fiction is important. You could absolutely drop a Fate Point to invoke "Marble Mirror Floor" or something like that, instantly giving it a name and getting your +2 bonus or reroll for it. Or earning a Fate Point and having something bad happen because the floor is mirrored. The name might need some tweaking afterward to get a good flow, but Fate aspects are tricky to get just right regardless. Winging them is extra difficult.

In older editions, back during the days of FATE, there were separate actions for "creating" aspects and for "noticing" aspects, with different ways to trigger them and different results. Fate streamlines that so you can use the same action for both, and if you "notice" an aspect that wasn't already explicit, you simply write it out. Either way, the idea is to get a free invoke. There was some discussion among the Evil Hat crew trying to explain their intent, and only one of them suggested that aspects that aren't on the table explicitly don't exist and can't be used until created with Create an Advantage. I think it was Ryan Macklin who was the outlier, but don't quote me on that.
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