Here you can specifically focus on kingdom development. I know it is a bit in limbo because the rules have not been decided upon but here are some basics that should get you started:

The following needs to be decided upon:

1. What is the name of this new country?
   
   
2. Where will its capital/first city stand?
   
   
3. What type of country will it be (Democracy? Monarchy? Oligarchy? Merchant Republic? Nomadic Tribes?
   
   
4. What kind of alignment will the country overall have (I don't know if this will have any game mechanics but helps set overall flavor)
   
   
5. What will be the primary religion(s) of the area? Naturally this area is big on Erastil, Pharasma, and Gorum so those will default be the big three unless you put pressure to elevate one above the others or bring a new god into the area.
   
   
6. What kind of theme/flavor/emphasis will the country have:
   -Militaristic & Utilitarian
   -Diplomatic & Cosmopolitan
   -Mercantile & Commerce
   -Peace & Stability
   -Theological & Divinity
   -Arcane & Knowledge
   -Primal & Naturalistic
   
   Again not sure if this will have any mechanical changes yet but will effect neighboring attitudes, what kind of "look" cities have (i.e. are they rugged and built for defense, are they integrated with nature so there are trees and parks everywhere which results in a very chaotic and meandering feel, is it a mishmash of cultures and races etc.
   
   
7. Whether you want to fully absorb the kobolds, leave them as an independent ally, or drive them out either with force or through diplomatic pressure for them to find a new home.

I like kaels question, what did the first charter say? it will impact decisions here.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:06, Tue 08 June 2021.

1. Barony of Tuskwater is Cara's Suggestion.

2. Stag Lord's Fort, it's an already built fort...expediating any claim. It is also located on Tuskwater Lake which is why she suggests Barony of Tuskwater. Calling it a Barony instead of a Kingdom is also less threatening to the neighbors.

3. Caramip thinks that we should be a Monarchy with Borric as Baron :).

4. Neutral is Caramip's suggestion.

5. Caramip has no strong leanings here.

6. I think Mercantile and Commerce. We'd need a road from Oleg's to our new Capital, Tuskwater City :). This road should come near the kobold's to facilitate trade. With their gold mine that wold be a hefty boost to any commerce in the area.

7. Cara would like to see the Kobolds official parts of the kingdom, they already have a mine and workers. So it would be better to seek diplomatic relations than to run them off and attempt to recruit new miners to take their places (miners that unless they were gnomes or halflings would have to expand the tunnels etc to properly mine before work could become).

In reply to Saira Ramsey (msg # 2):

I think the major difference is that the new Charter declares the new country independent, where the old Charter promised land as part of Brevoy / Rostland? Not sure what else could it be.


Anyway, I don't know if Kael should get any say in this, but here's his opinion anyway.

1. "How often do you get a chance to name a country? I say, go wild an make up a name that would draw settlers in. Just don't mention tusks, claws, fangs, blood, owlbears, spiders, or any other wildlife. I mean, if you were a hopeful colonist and you had a choice between Tusk-something and, say, Candyland, which place would you pick?" Kael asks, only half-jokingly.

2. The Stag Lord's fort would seem like an obvious location. A ruined fort is a half-built fort, and it is located on a waterway.

3. Why, Anarcho-syndicalist commune, of course. Ok, seriously, some form of monarchy would be the best fit, possibly with a generous dab of oligarchy so that the rest of the Charter signatories also have some official say in running the place.

4. NG. Most of us are good-aligned (I think?), and neutrality is a compromise between those of us that follow the law strictly and those that don't give a toss about it.

5. Eh, Kael does not really care about any of those. We do have a ruined temple and an NPC priest of Erastil, and Erastil is good-aligned so he does get a bit of an edge with Kael, even if he is a giant stick in the mud. Pharasma is just plain boring, and Gorum is way too blood-for-the-blood-god for Kael's taste. Maybe we should import some new gods.

6. I guess Peace and Prosperity would be my pick from those? Arcane & Knowledge is also tempting, but at the moment just taming the place would seem a priority.

7. Leave them independent for now, absorb them later when people get used to them (and vice-versa).

I don't think we've seen the contents of either charter, but Kesten's summation of the second is here: link to a message in this game

1. I dunno. I've been listening to blues lately and thought 'Caldonia' could be a good kingdom name. https://www.youtube.com/watch?...annel=ElwoodYodogawa

2. We should probably survey in the coming weeks to decide. The Stag Lord's hex might be a good place with both lake and river access and proximity to both plains and forest, but there's still a lot of the game map hidden.

3. Maybe some form of Constitutional Monarchy or Oligarchy. Meritocratic rather than Hereditary or Nepotistic would be nice.

4. Neutral. While Dom greatly values the role of law in founding a stable and productive society, he recognizes the worth of those with a chaotic nature--so long as they act within the laws. And although Good is certainly more desirable than Evil, those who pursue their self-interest, within the law, are still beneficial to society.

5. Abadar, of course! Most goodly and/or law-abiding religions should be welcome, but Erastil is a god of villages, not proper nations! Of course, not being High Priest, Dom would settle for sharing the hearts of the people with others. Gorum might be a problem, though.

6. Mercantile & Commerce, Peace & Stability

7. If they're on our lands, they are our subjects. If they follow the laws and pay the taxes, they are welcome to stay.

OOC: I think the old charter was just "Kill Stag Lord, get paid."

1. "If I took a trip to Candyland and it was full of owlbears, I don't know how happy I'd be about it."  Elena responded, also half-joking.  "I like 'Tuskwater'.  I don't love it, but I don't have any better ideas.  Maybe...since everyone calls this the stolen land, we could change it to Found Land?  New-Found-Land?"

2. "I agree, the fort seems like the obvious spot to start building."

3. "I think we're all behind Borric as lord, but I think the council should be able to overrule or replace the baron if it has to.  If (gods forbid) Borric dies, I don't want some cousin or sibling showing up with a claim to rule us."

4.  "We should aim to be neutral good.  That doesn't mean chasing off anyone who detects as evil, but why WOULDN'T we try to encourage goodness?"

5.  "I mean to help build up a temple to Shelyn once I get a chance, but the Eternal Rose has no aims to rule.  I suppose the real question is, do we outlaw worship of any gods?  I've never heard of a Kuthite or a Rovagug-worshipper doing good for their community, but do we come down on them even if they've committed no other crimes?" 

Elena thought for a moment.  "I don't think we should.  Even an evil god can have neutral aspects and neutral believers, and banning worship would only drive them underground."

6.  "I think we should focus on staying Diplomatic and Cosmopolitan.  We'll sink or swim on our relations with our neighbors, and trying to attract settlers from as many different places as possible would only make us stronger.  Besides, cosmopolitan cities always produce the best art and culture."

7. "Are the kobolds on our lands, Dom?  Or are they on their lands?  Brevoy might not recognize their territory, but we did.  I'm all for bringing them into the country once they're ready, but right now they'll only be our subjects if we conquer them.  And break a peace treaty to do it."
This message was last edited by the player at 16:13, Wed 09 June 2021.

1) I'm good with Barony of Tuskwater
2) The fort is a great place to build up.
3) Monarchy is classic DnD, but that does feel like there's a target on Borric. We could also try a Council with an elected leader type of stuff. This I imagine would have a big impact on the game... go going down the classic monarch route is good for me. This is the 1st Kingmaker game that I can say has gone this far :)
4) Key words on alignment: Good <--- strong reason, Laws are necessary, But not too strict type of LG. So how about LG/LN/NG what is the happy medium of those three???

I propose LN with a tendency for Good.

5) Erastil, I do like this one LG. Family, farming, hunting and trade are his areas of concern.

6) These areas
-Peace & Stability <--------- This is the goal
But you need the following to get to the goal. So I would imagine that we need merchants and commerce to build a tax base to work on diplomacy and whatever cosmopolitan is, but I want it :)
-Mercantile & Commerce
-Diplomatic & Cosmopolitan

7) I'm with Kael on the kobolds.

---

I think that Borric is all over the map :)

This message was last edited by the player at 17:46, Wed 09 June 2021.

In reply to Elena Sazikova (msg # 6):

I’ll have to look up whatever promises were made, but the nation can’t survive if we just accept sovereignty of every single person inhabiting the lands we mean to claim. If they benefit from the safety we provide and the trade which that brings then they have a duty to pay the taxes necessary to provide it.

Just so you know the alignments of the surrounding places:

Brevoy/Rostland: Chaotic Neutral
Nuemria: Chaotic Neutral
Pitax: Chaotic Neutral
Mivon: Chaotic Neutral


So....just putting it out there if you try and establish yourself as a bastion of law and principles with strict rules and borders etc. you might be in conflict with your neighbors.

Pretty much every surrounding nation is a "might makes right" kind of place. Nothing is really illegal, mob justice is the main form of justice, there aren't really customs and borders and large parts of the countryside are ruled by bandits and worse that kick up a bribe to the authorities.

They're not evil, just the River Kingdoms believe in freedom above all else. Everyone here pretty much came here to get away from rigid law and order and the River Kingdoms are notorious for heroes and mercenaries coming in and just carving up a new land only for it to collapse within a generation.

The River Kingdoms version of the "UN" is called the Outlaw Council and as refresher here are the River Freedoms:

https://pathfinder.fandom.com/wiki/River_Freedoms

Now to complicate things while you are getting the nod from Rostland (and apparently reluctantly from Brevoy) this area is still commonly considered part of the River Kingdoms so if you decide not to be a River Kingdom and distance yourself from the River Freedoms that might put you at odds with Mivon and Pitax...but might also put you closer to Brevoy and the Swordlords.

You will find that everything political from here on out is a tug of war between multiple different factions. Right now they can be boiled down into three main groups: Brevoy, Swordlords, and River Kingdoms.

However other factions that could be considered are Galt, Numeria, Taldor, Mendev, Kyonin and even the wild barbarians to the east in Iobaria.
This message was last edited by the GM at 21:28, Wed 09 June 2021.

In reply to Elena Sazikova (msg # 6):


This was the last post on the topic I found and Borric never posted whether he signed this agreement. That corridor runs between stag lord’s fort and Oleg’s/Brevoy. I’m not sure if we start with any claimed hexes so it might be some time before we need to press the issue.

Huh, I just sorta assumed we signed the treaty, since nobody said otherwise.  I also didn't realize the current treaty gave them our gold mine.. Out of character, the best way to do it is probably to wait for six months, then show up with a small army and tell them "Welcome to tuskwater!  Here's a flag, you work for us, now!"

They're lawful evil, they'd probably respect that sort of thing.

In reply to Elena Sazikova (msg # 12):

This works for me.

This is important to know. So we're probably going to need to get/show a strong front. Or we'll be ripe for the picking. We can shift to an alignment that we'd like it to be in the future. But we need to work in the environment that we have... and we're a small fish in a big pond :)

Are you suggesting that we make the barony CN, and go full Bandit Kingdom to fit in?  It's an option, sure, but not the only one.  A River King can make whatever rules he wants as long as he doesn't trample the river freedoms too badly (and is decent at murdering people).  Courts are for kings, after all.

And most of the River Freedoms are pretty reasonable, except for "You have what you hold."  But even that one's ambiguous enough that it probably won't be a problem.

In reply to Elena Sazikova (msg # 15):

I'd rather not go CN personally and it doesn't fit Borric either. He is LG.
But he/we all have the shared responsibility to succeed in this environment where every nation around us is CN and "Might Makes Right".

So we need to be smarter/better/mighter than the rest :)

~gets off soapbox~

So we need to be the shield for the nation/people.

And why do I feel another ambush of assassins in the near future :)

I've been reading what kingdom names others have used and here's a couple of examples, some just for laughs, some serious. Kael would be in favor of the most exotic and interesting name we could think of, but preferably not something that gives off an impression that being eaten by something is a real possibility here.

Emerald Barony / Kingdom (this area is called Greenbelt after all)
Australia (because it's full of monsters)
Greenland
Owlbearony
The democratic peoples republic of Golarion
Mordor
For Sale
Hartland
Feylands
Silvermarch

As for the River Freedoms, Kael's suggestion would be to not (officially) recognize those. Whatever good aspects of them they have can be covered instead by our laws. He has a feeling those freedoms are a big part of the reason why the River Kingdoms in general and the Stolen Lands in particular are what they are, a heaven for bandits and pirates. "You Have What You Hold" is the most important freedom after all. If you wish to build something that lasts here, that one in particular has to go. And that's coming from someone with chaotic alignment.

If that puts as at odds with our River Kingdoms neighbors, well that's fine. Because I think we should distance ourselves from them anyway in favor of tighter bonds with Brevoy / Rostland. I also think that we should not take the CN route, instead going for neutral-something (preferably good).

In reply to Borric d'Tor (msg # 16):

It's ok borric, The Hedge (work in progress lodge name) has us all covered.

Though, I agree with borric... playing nice until we at least have a foot hold is the smart move.

In reply to Kael Valleni (msg # 17):

I like the sound of the Silvermarch.
Was that from FR?

To be fair, it was Restov, a CN town of a CN state in a CN nation that sent us to kill bandits. We may border the River Kingdoms, but I don't think that means we have to honor all of the River Freedoms. And I think a nation can be CN and still have strong, basic laws--it's more about the number and breadth of the laws and how much freedom they allow. We could certainly outlaw murder, theft, banditry, etc and be CN. It's when we outlaw drug use, prostitution, and skipping leg day that we flirt with LN.

In reply to Borric d'Tor (msg # 19):

No clue. It was a name somebody used for their kingdom in the crpg Kingmaker. Not sure how much the Silver part fits though. There is a lake Silverstep to the east of where we were, but it's not exactly close by. Something-else-march(es)? I do like the march part.

Silver Marches is Forgotten Realms and possibly an inspiration for the name. Keep in mind though calling yourself Silvermarch makes you sound like you got a lot of silver, which means more bandits etc to disrupt your kingdom, m'Lord.
This message was last edited by the player at 14:49, Thu 10 June 2021.

In reply to Caramip Scheppen (msg # 22):

Well it's less of a target than GoldMarch :p

I like Silvermarch.  We've got a silver mine, and "march" is an archaic term for a frontier or border.  I'm fine with it or Tuskwater.  Neither are amazing, but I don't have any better ideas (other than Newfoundland.)

As for the River Freedoms, I would like to argue that they're good, actually.  Actually looking over them:

1: "Say what you will, I'm still free."
    We've got free speech where I live, and that's generally working out okay.

2: "Oathbreakers Die."
   This is a weird one, but I kinda like it.  In practice, it's not "Every fib is punishable by death," but "Breaking a sworn oath is a serious crime."  As an added bonus, that means you can usually trust sworn oaths.

3: "Walk any road, float any river."
   Were we planning on restricting travel heavily?  Really, this is a foreign policy concern: If we restrict trade too much, it gives everyone in the River Kingdoms casus belli to fight us.

4: "Courts are for kings."
   This is just acknowledging that different places have the right to set their own laws.  I know some of us want to start enforcing Abadar's doctrine on a global scale, but what if we didn't?

5: "Slavery is an abomination."
   Yes, correct.

6:  "You have what you hold."
   Now this one doesn't sound great.  But you could easily interpret it less as "Robbery is good," than "Don't obsess over old grudges or claims of ownership."  And that's good for us, personally.  Because EVERY one of our neighbors has a claim on the Stolen Lands.  That's where the name comes from.  Our claim is what?  That one faction leader of one neighboring country signed a paper?  It's not even Brevoy's land to give!

No, our legal claim on the territory is that we have what we hold.  If some mining company tries to claim that old gold mine we found?  Nope!  They shoulda held onto it!  If we expand south, and some Mivon noble shows up with an old piece of paper saying the land is his?  We're legally entitled to make a "jerk off" motion and push them out the door.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:40, Thu 10 June 2021.

In reply to Elena Sazikova (msg # 24):

You keep casting shade at Dom but he's arguing for a VERY laissez faire attitude within the feudal framework everyone's familiar with. XD

1: "Say what you will, I'm still free."
   Dom has nothing against this. Free Speech is a check on corruption--which would have likely been his primary focus as an Inquisitor of Abadar.

2: "Oathbreakers Die."
   Dom supports enforcement of contracts. Death is a bit too far, but it seems to be more figurative than literal.

3: "Walk any road, float any river."
   Dom has been reluctant to suggest road/bridge/river taxes out of respect for the local customs, but their position between Brevoy and the rest of the River Kingdoms and otherwise difficult river crossings could make this beneficial.

4: "Courts are for kings."
   This is a pretty undefined freedom, but it is said to prevent foreign leaders from visiting out of fear of obtuse laws or laws made on whims. Dom does not support frivolous, unchecked, opaque laws--nor laws that apply differently to different people without good reason.


5: "Slavery is an abomination."
   It can have its uses, particularly in conquest, assimilation, and quelling rebellion, but it is certainly not desirable.

6:  "You have what you hold."
   It's apt to acknowledge this is our claim to the region. But government hates competition! :D Lax enforcement of laws against banditry only serves to undermine our claim, and this 'freedom' allows or even honors bandits.

I'm not seeing any love for sphere 211. cant imagine why, it's such an amazing name

jk jk, seriously though, between silvermarch and tuskwater... tuskwater actually sounds cool but I can absolutely see silvermarch drawing in more merchants and sounding more sophisticated overall.

In reply to Dominique Telvari (msg # 25):

Yeah, as fun as sniping at Dom is, I'm pretty sure we're actually on the same page 95% of the time.  I'll try to tone down the shade a little, if it's getting annoying.

As far as #6 goes, I don't think any river king allows banditry against their OWN interests (aside from the incompetent or corrupt.)  I think it's more a matter of how we deal with someone coming here to sell loot taken from rival kingdoms and the like.  Like, we're not necessarily obligated to make them our problem.

Still not sure about the silver part. Hmm, maybe "Rivermarch"? Unlike silver, we got plenty of rivers. "Hartland(s)" also sounds kinda cool, if indeed "Candyland" or "Owlbearony" are out of the question.

In reply to Elena Sazikova (msg # 27):

It's all good, but I have to point out the LN Inquisitor and LG Paladin are debating about how chaotic our nation should be. XD

In reply to Kael Valleni (msg # 28):

I'm leaning hard on River March, Rivermarch, etc.
Sounds like LOTR now :)

In reply to Borric d'Tor (msg # 30):

I had to look it up(and maybe I'm the only one who didn't know,) but 'march' originates etymologically from 'border,' 'edge,' or 'boundary.' (Silver Marches likely named after the leader Alustriel Silverhand and/or his city Silverymoon and bordering the orc hordes they were united against.) So River March/Rivermarch works as we are a sort of boundary to the River Kingdoms.

And if we go Monarchy, "Marquis d'Tor" has a nice ring to it.

Sounds nice. But does Monarchy strongly suggest/require/etc that Borric gets married and wife producing children. Oh the pressures of motherhood :|

If you wish the Kingdom to last longer than your life I would strongly suggest getting married and having some children...

In reply to Borric d'Tor (msg # 32):

the thought of borric as a mother is almost a fascinating one.

That's kinda why I want to give the council the ability to appoint kings.  More immediate to the game is what if Borric gets eaten by an owlbear next month, before he can pop out a replacement unit?  Canonically his family are all bastards, and going by blood means one of them gets the kingdom (6th River Freedom notwithstanding.)
This message was last edited by the player at 01:16, Fri 11 June 2021.

There are a lot of positions to fill and more than there are players. If all the positions are part of the council and thus have a vote, then the PCs may well be outnumbered. That might make retaining control more difficult.

Ruler:
Consort/Regent: No penalty for vacancy but can act as Ruler in Ruler's absence
Councilor:
General:
Grand Diplomat:
Heir: No penalty for vacancy but can act as Ruler in Ruler's absence
High Priest: Are any of us Clerics, Might be a good position for Jhod
Magister:
Marshall:
Royal Enforcer: No penalty for vacancy
Spymaster:
Treasurer:
Viceroy: Might need one if the Kobold's are left a Separate state otherwise not needed.
Warden:

Going by Ultimate Campaign.
The Ruler (or if we make it a council) must hold court a minimum of 7 days a month. That's 7 days you cannot explore, cannot adventure, etc.

Now if we make it a council then we are an Oligarch

Base Stats:

Economy:   0
Loyalty:   0
Stability: 0


Alignment of Kingdom Modifiers:

LG +2 Economy, +2 Loyalty
LN +2 Economy, +2 Stability
NG +2 Loyalty, +2 Stability
N  +4 Stability

I ignored Chaotic and Evil choices as they would be against the majority of the party.

Usually a Kingdom starts with a single hex, I recommend F4 because if we don't claim the fort someone else will...
Not sure how much the time hop will be but you can normally only claim 1 hex per month.

Order of Hex Claiming:

F4  Initial Hex
E5  We need the river bridge if we plan to trade
D4  We need to explore this hex....
C4  Again need to control river crossings
B4  Raddish Patch
A5  Oleg's

This would provide a road to Oleg's once built.

We'll need a farm in F4 (it's next to the lake), E5 and D4 could also have farms.

Please remember, we have some agency and flexibility here. In addition, we are already using different rules from those and will likely be using even further different rules when the gm adapts the new ones being released

What rules are we using then?

We can't really make decisions without knowing what rules are being used....

In reply to Caramip Scheppen (msg # 38):

dont worry about the mechanics? I mean, thats not an official statement of course... but like, we could just go off of rp and adjust later?

The GM said the rules are in limbo... until the book is published. I don't remember the name of the book.

But we can still make plans (see post #1) and Caramip's suggestion makes sense.

I would say C5 instead of C4. 'cause gold.

I'm not sure controlling river crossings is necessary unless we're planning to tax them. (RP standpoint)

I'd suggest taking the 5's up instead of the 4's. If we're using Ultimate Campaign rules(on d20pfsrd) or similar, plains are also easier and quicker to claim and build roads on--and the roads aren't doubled in cost for having to build bridges as well.

I think we are using the standard kingdom rules at least to start with, and then we'll see I guess. I'll have to look at the rules in more detail, but one thing that is obvious is that staying clear of kobold's path will definitely be a problem, as not only is it cutting right across the lands, but it also holds the gold mine. We'll have renegotiate our deal with them soon. Beyond that, exactly what we can do will depend on our available resources, which are still kinda in limbo at the moment.

As for council position, we can place NPCs on unfilled posts once we determine which position we wish to take. For Kael, that's spymaster. Who else do we have? We can probably set up things so that only PC council members actually have voting power, if we are going down the oligarchy road. But I'm fine more traditional monarchy as well, or some combination of the two.

The Fort lies across the river from Oleg's so you need at least one of the bridges unless you plan to pay bandits everytime a merchant crosses....

We'll have to deal with the Mites and negotiate with the Kobolds before we can take the 5 line.

E5 is a 5

Do we? }:^)
Even the route you suggested goes through their "Radish Corridor." And did you all not deal with the mites before I joined? I'll have to look that up.
I think, so long as we aren't taking over the silver mine, radish fields, or under the sycamore, we'd be sticking to the wide grey area in the agreement Borric didn't sign with them if we claim and develop the hexes the features are on. And I'm sure they'll see the writing on the wall when we renegotiate.

In reply to Dominique Telvari (msg # 44):

The mites are pretty beat up and scattered, I think the kobolds even now hold the mites old base.

A river divides the Stolen Lands almost in two....if you surrender the river crossings you'll be surrendering the kingdom to bandits, after all where were the bandits when we came? Where they expected people to be :) like river crossings....

Maybe we could discuss that with the kobolds when we go meet up with them... cara, you me and elena are making a trip out there anyways, right?

@Kael: Here's the current council, AFAIK.

Ruler (CHA)           - Borric
General (CHA/STR)     - Elena
Marshal (DEX/WIS)     - Saira
Spymaster (DEX/INT)   - Kael
Treasurer (INT/WIS)   - Dominique
Diplomat (CHA/INT)    - Cara.

Looking at the NPC list in the adventure log, here's my thoughts for the other roles:

High Priest (CHA/WIS) - Jhod, obviously.
Councilor (CHA/WIS)   - Oleg or Svetlana.
Magister (CHA/INT)    - Bokken or Minerva?  Neither are great.
Warden (CON/STR)      - Akiros or Kesten.
Enforcer (DEX/STR)    - Kesten or Akiros.

That's six PCs to five NPCs.  Four if we don't have an enforcer.  I don't think we need to disenfranchise the NPCs if we go Oligarchy.  OOC, I'm sure they'll just go along with us unless it's more interesting for them not to.  IC, some of the NPC jobs kinda deserve a vote more than Spymaster.

---

@Caramip: I think "claiming" a hex means investing in settlement, etc.  If some bandits block a bridge right outside our doorstep, we can still go kill them.

---

@Saira: I'm game, if our DM can spare the attention to put us through a side-story.  There is probably a lot to set up, and he might prefer to just focus on the main storyline for now.

In reply to Elena Sazikova (msg # 48):

Did we ever recover Minerva? She ran off and was helping Tort. I dont recall us ever catching her again.

Saira would vote no on akiros being enforcer, we may have had a chance to negotiate with the fort... maybe... but akiros focused in on just killing. Maybe he was right, but if he wasnt then he took away our chance to do it our way and thats not something we want our enforcer doing. A warden is more of a reactive, protective, role and thats fine.
This message was last edited by the player at 00:02, Sun 13 June 2021.

In reply to Saira Ramsey (msg # 49):

Minerva got nicked when the party captured the company of Roses.  She somehow didn't get sent back for execution despite fighting the party twice, setting the trading post on fire, and not even pretending to show remorse at any point.

So, y'know, she's not ideal.  But she's an option.

I could always try to round up some clerics, paladins, and inquisitors of Abadar to fill some positions while I'm in Restov...

In reply to Dominique Telvari (msg # 51):

If we are dead set on reforming her, Saira can actually work her over for a while using https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alter...#Hypnotism_Diplomacy

my chars diplomacy is kind of crap (though, this may be motivation to improve the skill or get magic to do so) but with a little help then teamwork should easily get the job done.

Saira wouldnt be ok with Straight up brainwashing, which this can do... but it would be a pretty simple thing to get her to give us some dirt on her so she stops messing with us and then perhaps even find out what her 'motivation' is and perhaps appeal to that.

I think kesten is from restov, right? I dont think we want to have too many restov people in position of authority.

I think Minerva was Elena's side project....

Akiros was mine and I think he'd be great in a role...

Oleg and Bokken would be nice but then Oleg might not wish to give up time each month to help rule

Things we'll have to ask them. However they might know others if they don't wish to that would do them.

You okay boss?

DM will be back in time. I've been gaming with prague for years. I've needed to take some time to deal with my own RL stuff. We're trying to sell our home and purchase a new home. Yikes!

But right now... it's cleaning time!!!

Hope things go well for you Borric, I see prague posted and I know well how life can suck your energy. Just glad to know we are continuing as I've become very vested in Caramip :)

In the K&W rules the positions that you take up give you actual mechanical bonuses to combat encounters.

Here is what I think people are going to naturally fit into but you are free to disagree and negotiate one way or another:


How does everyone feel about this? Once I know who wants what role I can PM you the real details about your bonus abilities. There is also some wiggle room so like if the Minstrel would rather a different 1st level spell to be their free casting we can talk it over.

I'm fine with the spymaster position. I do like that we could now cover all positions with PCs. One question though, over in the other thread the benefit of being the Master Assassin is listed as "Bonus to stealth. Gain +1d6 precision damage to every attack with light or ranged weapons." Would Kael be able to benefit from this since he does not use a light or ranged weapon?

Sounds good here

@Kael: It's intended obviously for a more roguey character but given his build I could see the argument for say, +1d4 sneak attack damage for a weapon wielded in one hand, going up to +1d6 for a light/ranged weapon.

OR maybe you and Saira swap spots.

Eh, whatever you decide on will be enough. I kinda like the idea of making a sneaky character. Magus chassis is not exactly build for pure arcane power, and I messed up the build too much for a pure frontline fighter.

Do these kingdom rules assume running a 5E game? Or are they completely agnostic about what is used? Unless I'm mistaken, limitation on which weapon can be used to sneak attack is a 5E thing. In Pathfinder, one can happily "sneak-attack" with a battle axe.

Hmm I was aiming for the Grand Diplomat but I don't see it above, are there other positions you didn't list, I mean I'm more a storyteller than a minstrel :), I can't really play an instrument or sing that well :)

The roles are built around mechanical classes, not general positions. So the "Master-at-arms" can easily be called your Warlord, your General, your Warden etc.

Same as your court minstrel could be called a diplomat, courtier, ambassador etc.

I'm fine with High Priest.

Okay I'm fine with the Minstrel in that case.

Also keep in mind there is the concept of a shadow government. So you could appoint, say, Kesten Garess to the role of High General but if Elena is the Master-at-Arms, no matter what her actual role or title is in game Kesten would defer to her on military matters.

Same with Dominique/Cara and the rest. You could appoint an NPC to a court position but your title here kind of informally determines your sphere of influence:


High Priest - Resolve
Court Ministrel - Diplomacy
Spymaster - Espionage
Master-at-arms - Operations
Court Mage - Lore
Ruler - Resources

I'm listing the basic kingdom rules here, since I think it'll be easier than constantly searching through the fast-moving OOC thread.

That said, what should be our high-level goals, both at the ceremony and in general?  I'm mostly gonna base my decisions off of roleplaying concerns (I don't particularly care what bonuses Surtova or the Technic League are offering, for example,) But it couldn't hurt to have a general strategy for the numbers.

We have three options on type of court: War, Political, or Legacy.  War has tasty combat bonuses, and we are going to be fighting a lot.  Political sounds like it would make the kingdom level easier (and let us min-max by dumping espionage a little.  Legacy...I don't really know what that would look like.  Heavily integrating the kobolds, fey, etc into the government?  Of these three I'm leaning towards a political administration.

As for the stats themselves, it's hard to say.  For the active skills, it's usually better to specialize in one or two abilities, and then try to solve most problems with said abilities (Lore problem?  Use diplomacy to find someone who knows more than us!)  I'd personally put our skill priorities as Diplomacy > Operations > Lore > Espionage.

The defenses sound like saving throws, and since we don't really know what saves are going to be most common, we should probably just treat them all as equally important, and roughly as valuable as the active skills.  So that puts my personal priority at something like:

Diplomacy > Operations > (Resources/Communications/Resolve) > Lore > Espionage

---

Looking over the options, I can quickly split the deals into four groups.

Important negotiations:
-Abadar: remove exclusivity
-Erastil: remove exclusivity

Pretty acceptable as is:
-Sarenrae
-House Garess
-Orlovsky
-Aldori
-Restov
-Farmers guild
-Galt
-Varnhold

Maybe: (good deals, might cause problems.)
-Gronzi Lumber
-Daggermark Assassins
-Hanspur
-Lebeda

Unacceptable as-is:
-Mivon: Must remove pledge of neutrality.
-Gorum: already have religions
-Pharasma: already have religions
-Surtova: Loyalist
-Lovodka: Loyalist
-Medvyed: Zero-sum trade
-Numeria: Slaver trash.
-Pitax: Probably hostile.
-Ustalav: Their rebellions are their business.
-Drelev: I'm not spending a turn on that.

If we take all the deals in the first two groups without changing the numbers, that will give us a total of:

+4 diplomacy, +3 Operations, +3 Lore, +0 espionage, +5 resources, +2 Resolve, +0 communications, +2 Stability(Probably supposed to be resolve, stability isn't a stat.)

All the "maybes" together add up to another:
-4 Diplo, -1 lore, +5 Espionage, +5 Resources, +2 communications
Which is an issue, because we (or I, at least) want diplomacy more than espionage.

And if we can get Mivon on board that's another:
+2 Diplomacy, -2 Operations, +1 Espionage, +2 Resource, +1 Resolve.
Which is generally good, though it puts our operations lower than I'd like.

---

The conclusion of all this faffing around seems to be that taking all of the obvious deals will give us a solid base of skills.  Mivon, Hanspur, Gronzi and Daggermark are all good numerically, though they harm our core skills of Diplomacy and Operations (I consider them our core skills, you guys might disagree.)  If we're taking them, we should try to find deals that raise our diplomacy and operations to counter the penalties.  Also, there's a lot of resources being thrown at us, so deals that cost us resources might be easier to stomach then other penalties.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:47, Sat 07 Aug 2021.

Kael's position on the whole loyalist - separatist affair is that we should stay neutral and far, far away from something that is quite likely to quickly escalate to a very, very bloody civil war. He does not care about Surtova, but he does not wish to help start a civil war either.

With that in mind, here's what Kael would prefer.

Court: Legacy, because that just sounds interesting
Priorities: Operations > Lore > Resources > Communication > Resolve > Espionage > Diplomacy

As for the deals...

Good as is, negotiations might make it better:

• Sarenrae - good aligned, interesting and we can take another pick, what's not to like?
• Erastil - I'm assuming we can combine it with Sarenrae as is, but if we need to negotiate for that then that should be a priority
• Mivoni - a decent deal, and they are neutral
• Varnhold - probably the only really good guy here
• Garess - I like this, and it might be a hook to something interesting in the future
• Gronzi Lumber - not sure if compatible with Garess, might need to negotiate if not

Possibly good with some negotiations:

• Abadar - we need to make him work with other religions
• Lebeda - we need to first figure out what exactly will go wrong, because something definitely will
• Restov - Restov is a natural trading partner to us, but we would need to negotiate neutrality first
• Rostland Farmers - if possible let's not give away what little decent farmland we actually have right now
• Galt - don't like giving the exclusive access to ruins here, we might be interested in some of those ourselves
• Daggermark - how the hell does an exclusive deal with a guild of assassins even work?

Stay far, far away:

• All parties that would make us part of the two main factions
• Pharasma - because we already have three religions and can't take more, plus Pharasma is just boring
• Gorum - too "blood for the blood god"
• Hanspur - too chaotic even for Kael
• Medvyed - untouched wilderness is hardly in short supply in our lands, in fact that's pretty much all we have at the moment
• Numeria - embracing river freedoms may not be a great idea for building something that will last, but slavery is still a big no-no
• Pitax - bad guys here
• Ustalav - yeah, let's not get involved in even more civil wars
• Drelev - does not seem to bring anything to the table

Anyway, that's my pitch for neutrality. If the party decides to support the Rostland faction, Kael will of course go along with that.

Elena/Kael - I think both of you are almost talking about the same thing :)

Let me sorta butcher it up. Here is what I'm thinking (repeating several ideas)


Looking over the options, I can quickly split the deals into four groups.

Important negotiations:
-Abadar: remove exclusivity
-Erastil: remove exclusivity

-Aldori: remove joining the separatist
-Restov: remove joining the separatist


Pretty acceptable as is:
-Sarenrae
-House Garess
-Orlovsky
-Farmers guild
-Galt
-Varnhold

Maybe: (good deals, might cause problems.)
-Gronzi Lumber
-Daggermark Assassins
-Hanspur
-Lebeda

Unacceptable as-is:
-Mivon: Must remove pledge of neutrality. <--- Maybe we can attempt this if we have time
-Gorum: already have religions
-Pharasma: already have religions
-Surtova: Loyalist
-Lovodka: Loyalist
-Medvyed: Zero-sum trade
-Numeria: Slaver trash.
-Pitax: Probably hostile.
-Ustalav: Their rebellions are their business.
-Drelev: I'm not spending a turn on that.

While I'm for sticking with the Swordlords, I'm not strongly against joining Mivon in the neutrality route.  I am against completely hedging our bets and not making any commitments like Borric seems to be suggesting.  We need at least one real ally, and every action spent removing the exclusivity conditions is an action not spent making numbers go up.

Maybe we should just put it to a vote?  I officially vote for staying with Rostland and the Swordlords.

I'm with you on this too.

But did we want to remove their exclusivity clause or be a separatist too?

State Religion


Alrighty! I think I got the gist of what we are trying to do here :)
So who is feeling lucky!?!

---

We have a several more skill checks if we want to secure all 3 religions to our state. Even though I suspect that we're not going to be proficient in all of the skills... step up if you're feeling LUCKY!  :)

Let me know if we want to add or drop one of these are potential religions.

You aren't going to remove the separatist and loyalist exclusions I don't think.

Given what just happened it is clear that Pitax is hostile and perhaps looking to take over the Green Belt themselves, we will need the Swordlords and Restov or someone else that might can help defend should the time come.

State Allies

The Selection Options

In reply to Caramip Scheppen (msg # 74):

That may be very true. It probably will be an impossible DC to get both those removed from Restov and the Swordlord. But we still should have a vote to make sure that we get everyone involved.

State Ally votes...

Swordlord - Elena, Borric
Restov - Elena, Borric


Need votes from Caramip, Dom and Kael

Logically; just removing 'excludes loyalist' isn't enough to allow a loyalist, we'd also need to remove 'excludes separatist' from the target loyalist(s). It's doubling increase in actions/difficulty for everyone we want to mingle. However, removing 'pledge of neutrality' from Mivon is a singular action. Does anyone have Sleight of Hand?

Dominique would vote for neutrality even if we're able to persuade Mivon, though. War is bad for business. If pressed he'd support Rostland's freedom, but no reason to go upsetting Surtova so soon.

What exactly are the effects of discovering Artanix's secret?
This message was last edited by the player at 17:52, Thu 12 Aug 2021.

In reply to Dominique Telvari (msg # 77):

This sounds like a vote.


State Ally votes...

Swordlord - Elena, Borric, Dominique
Restov - Elena, Borric, Dominique

Still need Caramip and Kael :)
Can we make this unanimous?

In reply to Borric d'Tor (msg # 78):

Someone's trying to steal the election!

Dom was voting for neutrality.  Kael was also pretty firmly in favour of neutrality, making it 2 v 2.

Making Cara the tie-breaker.  (Cara sounded pro loyalist, but it was a little ambiguous.)

DOH! I've been corrected :)
So does Dom, Kael or Cara wish to change their vote to swing with Elena/Borric or go against us. LOL.

Please be clear on picking one.
(Neutrality with the Swordlord/Restov? I'm in favor of going with Swordlord/Restov and trying to gain neutrality, but that 2nd part may be too high of a hurdle. I'm just trying to get us to pick a side)

This message was deleted by the player at 19:36, Thu 12 Aug 2021.

Yeah, Kael is in favour of neutrality. In this case, going with Mivon and then trying to get other deals that would not drag us in one faction or the other. Ideally we would get some kind of a deal with Restov that would not mark us as separatists, if that's possible. Anyway, that's Kael's take.

So is your stance to side with Mivon (1st). Could you also include getting Mivon to drop their exclusivity, etc?

Well, I'm in favour of siding with Mivon precisely because they wish for us to stay neutral. I don't mind other deals as long as we don't actually join one faction. Basically, I'm fine with whatever does not get us involved into a civil war.

The Swordlords are Separatists......not Loyalist

Cara realizes that we are not prepared to face Pitax and given what has just happened and the fact Restov and the Swordlords funded the expedition we should go with them, even if that excludes others. Otherwise we will make another potential enemy who will feel jilted in funding the expedition and getting nothing....

We also need to work out deals with Drelev and Varn, something perhaps more than just border recognition :)

What is name of our region?

Need to secure allies

(E) Exclusive clause
This message was last edited by the player at 04:43, Fri 13 Aug 2021.

How about this chart.
This chart summarizes all of the potential allies. Let me know if we want to add others to this list.

---

Well it doesn't sound like we have a majority on our VOTE.
But that's ok. I'm sure that things will become clearer as we continue with the rounds of Combat with wine and cheese!

---

Religion - Looking good, but still have a bit more to do to secure all 3.
Noble - No gains yet
Trade - No gains yet

Looks like team separatist wins, 3-2!
This message was last edited by the player at 03:05, Fri 13 Aug 2021.

Drelev  --- need border agreement at least
Varn    --- need border agreement at least
Garess  --- steady supply of ore and materials would be nice (especially iron if we plan to fight).
The Druids not wanting us to chop up the woods maybe (communications and early warning of Pitax incursions).

In reply to Caramip Scheppen (msg # 90):

Edits made to the table above. Let me know if I made any errors.

Waiting on actions from Cara/Kael/Dominique for the 5pm slot...

I was waiting for a response to this. I have no idea how any of this works mechanically, but per your other responses I guess it's not actually mechanical.

I'll get on writing my next action now. And I think I'll go ahead and tattle on the ambassador-assasin to our hosts, though I'll try to make it so that he does not know Kael is responsible for that. I thought about waiting a bit, but there's no telling how soon the guy is going to make his move. It will be a shame to lose our leverage over him, but we are the good guys after all. I think.

DM, would I need a separate action to inform the Aldori about the problem? If so, I'd like to do that first, and leave the Mivoni ambassador for the next round. Also, is Jamandi around or should I just talk to the Aldori representative?
This message was last edited by the player at 11:22, Thu 19 Aug 2021.

Does my perception check revolve before I decide on an action, that's mostly what I was waiting on?

Well hang on, let me summarize:

Motivation: Understanding (and using) their motivations gives you a bonus for all future interactions with them be it deal making, secret finding etc.

Secrets: Finding and using a secret gives you basically a free automatic success to alter a deal. No roll needed, just straight up blackmail "I will tell everyone X unless you give me Y". Now it doesn't have to be so aggressive but using a secret gives you a free deal change.

Optional Objective: There are lots of side deals you can make. Presumably they were sent here with orders from their House/Church/Country etc. but that doesn't mean they themselves are not powerful and influential. Learning about their side deals lets you make more deals. Not necessariliy with the church/house/country itself but with them individually. Usually these are going to be much smaller in scope but not necessarily.

Deals: Once you are ready you can sign a deal. If you want the deal as written you can do it without a roll. Otherwise the more you change it the harder the roll becomes. This is also where knowing their motivations is important because you can figure out what parts of the deal are most important and which ones are least important.

---

Cara: Your perception check is good enough to determine that everyone from the Pitax delegation left. None of them "slipped away" during the commotion.

As for finding out if anyone at the party is working for Pitax, that is beyond the ability of a simple Perception check. There are hundreds of servants and dozens of minor nobility. The room is packed and while you could find servants or minor nobles acting suspicious there is no easy way to figure out who they are working for or why they are acting suspicious, at least not without getting extremely lucky or spending hours observing them.

Did I do something wrong?

I voted to stay with the separatists, but I'm honestly kinda rethinking it after the situation with the assassins.  Between the mass-murder at the start of the game, letting the Pitax delegate casually walk away after turning our fellow expedition into a pile of severed heads, and letting the latest assassin escape to make his move elsewhere, the Swordlords seem pretty much unable or unwilling to protect their allies at all.

I'm kinda tempted to have Elena confront Caleb Aldori over it, and decide whether to ditch them based on his response.  Would everyone be okay with that?  Or is that a conversation that someone with more relevant skills wants to have?
This message was last edited by the player at 13:33, Tue 31 Aug 2021.

I'm in favour of neutrality, but I don't think Aldori should be blamed too much for not wanting to play a spy game and just driving the guy away. It's only been a month since their last debacle with Daggermark assassins, and it was the safest thing to do. Well, for them at least.

Anyway, I'm fine with us going whichever way we take.

Yeah, fair enough.  On second thought, it would just be starting a bunch of drama over minor stuff, which isn't in character for Elena.

I know I am late joining the group, but I would really like to jump in an help mold the kingdom as an equal. Here are some initial thoughts about the deals.


The deals most important deal to Vyntis would be blocking the Grozi Lumber Consortium from taking place. He has no issue with logging but all kinds of issues with clearcutting forests. In addition this with push the fey and elves away and lower the lore in the land.

The religious deal most important to Vyntis would be the Erastil deal. He is a follower of Erastil and cannot imagine helping to rule land that does not allow or encourage his worship.

The noble deal house Medvyed is oveiously appealing, but not perfect by any means.

Loyalist, Separatist, or neutral he should fall anyway and currently has no strong feelings on this.

Surprisingly he seems drawn to the Rostland Farmers but not what they are pitching.

The Varnhold deal seems like one of the best deals on the table at face value.

We could probably change the Gronzi deal to something that doesn't anger the fey so much, like limiting woodcutting to forests without intelligent inhabitants.  As always, I'm tempted to try to double-dip: I want druid allies, but I also want that lumber.

Right, we're trying to triple dip with religion.
So we're dealing with the dice gods right now :)

But I'm really enjoying the stories as they unfold.

In reply to Elena Sazikova (msg # 102):

I have an idea about how we may be able to reduce our negative for the Gronzi deal. What if work a deal out with a noble that includes wartime logging rights. They will still get the wood supply they seek, but it will not all come from our forests.

I dunno if their deals with other nobles are really our business.  Besides it's good for us if they can't get lumber elsewhere.

As I see it, the heart of the matter is this:  Do we sell them all our trees and make the Fey mad(/homeless/dead), sell none of our trees and make us poor, or try to negotiate and only sell them some of our trees, in the hopes that the Fey won't get too mad?

This is an excellent idea of how to use the motivation to alter the critical component of the deal.

Not saying Elena is wrong but this is designed to not be open and allow you guys to really shape the deals and alliances that end up shaping your kingdom.

Do you have a bunch of logging camps that need to be protected? Do you have nobles from this house or that visiting? Does Borric (or someone else) get into an arranged marriage to secure an alliance.

I'll be honest, I have HUUUGE gaps in my notes for what happens after this because what you do here is going to change the course of events throughout the rest of the game.

In reply to Dungeon Master (msg # 106):

Borric needs volunteers to step up to accept marriage contracts :)
Need one to send to Pitax... and another to some barbarian tribes in the near future. Oh and I need a virgin for the dragon sacrifice ;)

"We shall seal this deal by allowing you to marry Rivermarch's most eligible bachelor: Fat Fingers the bandit."

I've created some potential roles for officers to fill but as the rulers of the realm you are free to create whatever titles and title styles you wish.

So, for example, if you don't want to be called the Magister you could call yourself the Royal Archmage or the Lord of the Arcane or whatever title you wish.

Same thing with officer positions. Below I am listing out what I think are good positions for officers to fill but feel free to suggest your own positions and titles accordingly:

• Ruler - ultimately the person that makes the final decisions
  
  • Consort/Heir - as a monarchy it is important to have a clear line of succession and this person would have a lot of influence and involvement in the operations of the government
  • Treasurer - master of coins. Tracks the income and expenses of the kingdom.
  • Councilor - advisor of the people. His job is to understand the general support the people have for their ruler to avoid unrest and uprising.
• High General - master of all things military
  
  • Warden - head of the city guards, in charge of enforcing laws across the land
  • Marshall - head of the kingdom rangers/scouts, in charge of protecting roadways and wilderness/rural areas that do not have formal town guards
  • General - 2nd in command for the army.
• High Priest - head of all things divine
  
  • High Priest of XXX - head priest for a specific church
• Court Minstrel - head of all things diplomacy
  
  • Ambassador to XXX - lead point of contact to a specific country
• Magister - head of all things arcane
  
  • Arcane Master - head of arcane research and/or academy training
  • Planar Master - head of research/training for planar matters
  • Battlemage - head of the combat spellcasters and liason to the army
• Spymaster - head of all things espionage
  
  • Royal Executioner - off with their heads!
  • Head of Internal Affairs - manages the spy ring that handles internal investigations and counter-espionage
  • Head of External Affairs - manages the spies placed in other countries

You don't need to have only three officers. You can have more, you can have less. It is really up to you how many positions you want to fill with notable and named NPCs. If you don't care, just leave them blank and you will interact with faceless interchangeable people. If you love diving into NPCs you can end up with a whole retinue.

Generally speaking an officer has little mechanical impact on the game. You will be using your skills and/or the kingdom skills. Officers just help flesh out the narrative so it isn't just a nameless NPC that runs in with a report or is dispatched on a mission. Depending on the NPC's personality it can also impact how they passed or failed a mission.

Since we're nearing the home stretch on this diplomacy minigame, we should probably come to some final decisions on what deals we want, so we don't wait too late and leave some on the table.  Here's my thoughts:

Gronzi Vs Medvyed:  We were originally pretty set on Gronzi, but I think we should at least hold a vote about which one to pick.  I actually vote we go with Medvyed and the druids, even though it gives less bonuses.  Here's why:

1) We're already have a ton of resources, and we'll be getting more from the deals with Restov and the Swordlords.  Meanwhile, Medvyed is literally the only source of communications that isn't going to murder our subjects at random.

2) Lots of faeries and the like live in those forests, and destroying their homes for money is a dick move that' going to make dealing with the fae more difficult in the future.


Other Deals:

-Erastil, Restov, and the swordlords are pretty much  mandatory.  Orlovski seems like a free bonus with no strings attached.
-Goldfield is a solid deal, maybe with the "exclusive access" clause removed.  I'm thinking we could set up a situation where we pay a bounty for information on newly discovered sites, and give Goldfield the option to claim first dibs, unless the ruins sound important to national interests.
-I think we should try to sell the Restov farmers on a deal where thy organize a land swap, and some of them become Rivermarch farmers.  We could scrap the -1 resources (because we're keeping the land) and the +1 diplomacy (because it's no longer an international effort) but keep the +1 resolve (farmers are happy they don't get cheated).  Or try to negotiate so that we keep the diplo bonus, too.
-Lebeda only sounds reasonable if we can eliminate the exclusivity clause.  They're shifty traders and might take Surtova's side in the war.  I think they're trying to make us economically reliant on them so that they have leverage.
-Drelav is fine, probably, if we have an action to spare.
-The mivon dueling thing seems fine, they might come in handy.  The Erastil side deal is fine i guess, I rate Diplomacy slightly higher than Operations.  The technic league thing is interesting, but I don't really like the operations penalty, OR trusting the Technic League.
-I don't give a shit about Pharasma, but I'm fine if we take it.

-Hanspur feels like a no-go.  I was considering trying to let them in under conditions (access to criminals that have been sentenced to death in exchange for them swearing an oath not to harm travellers.)  But they're evil murdering scum, no matter what the rules say, and we can't trust them to uphold their word when betrayal is literally one of their main things.  It's a shame, really.  Pissing off Hanspur when you live in the river kingdoms is real dangerous.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:22, Thu 09 Sept 2021.

In reply to Elena Sazikova (msg # 110):

Gronzi v Medvyed: Neither. Maybe Gronzi if we tamp down their exclusivity. There doesn't seem to be a decent middle ground between the two, which is what Dom would advocate--something more like reaching out to druids to sanction plots for lumbering and auctioning the plots off. Not sure we'll have that kind of depth to management, though.

Mandatory: Erastil, Pharasma, Restov, Swordlords

If we have time, in order: Goldfield(Have Secret, use it), Gronzi(Have Secret,) Erastil Side(since we already have Motivation unlocked), Lebeda(if we remove exclusivity,) Orlovsky, Mivon Side, Numeria Side, Varn(Renegotiate to improve the deal?)

Diplomatically, keep in mind Orlovsky is an Issian House and Lebeda was granted Rostland land when they were conquered. Civil war would likely have unexpected consequences with them. Would secession mean Lebeda losing their lands to the Swordlords? Is Orlovsky pro-Sepratist or just anti-Surtova?
This message was last edited by the player at 18:50, Thu 09 Sept 2021.

In case this alters people's opinions, this is not the only opportunity you will get to improve stats in your kingdom. This is really only setting the initial starting scores. I fully expect scores to rise and fall as the game progresses.

In reply to Dungeon Master (msg # 112):

Maybe with the Dungeon Masters above statement we should fill the third god in the future instead of picking Pharasma who seems to be a god that means nothing to anyone in the party. I think I saw a post where someone mentioned that they worshiped Shelyn. However, as the High Priest I will defer to your judgment. If you want me to, I will spend this turns action to roll for Pharasma's secret. Please just restate your request in this thread.

Pharasma, Gorum, and Erastil are the big three in the area. Remember you are ruling over a country not just your personal characters. You dont need a specific tie to a religion for it to be important.

In reply to Vyntis Overgrowth (msg # 113):

I'd appreciate it, but if you'd rather not, it looks like Orlovsky, Swordlords, and Varn could all benefit from Local too.

Sorry Dominique on the bad roll. I am willing to give it another try.

I am going to highly encourage the group to sign some of the deals as is. We will not have enough time to modify every deal.

By my count we will need we have 4 deals that have been put forth as Mandatory.  Erastil, Pharasma, Restov, Swordlords. It looks like we will also be moving forward with 2 deals deals involving Lady Orlovsky and Mayor Sellemius. We also have to modify the deasl with Pharasma and Erastil to remove exclusion. So that is at least 8 actions. Are there any of these deals that we want to reveal the side deal to sign both at once?

Is there a grid map for this game? Perhaps we can come to an agreement on where we will be heading after this so we do waste any time.

In reply to Vyntis Overgrowth (msg # 117):

There was. And since it isn't there I'm going to guess that he's updating it now :)

Yeah. These negotiations are going to factor heavily into the next steps so I wouldn't worry too much about your next steps.

If you are really keen I posted something about creating NPC officers (or promoting NPCs already under your command) so if you're chomping at the bit focus on getting your character's organization in order.

Dominique, why don't I give it another try for the secret of Pharasma so I can modify the deal for a 3-body religious triumvirate? You could do the same thing with Erastil and sign both deals with them if you are successful. That could lock up all three gods this turn.

Your thoughts?
This message had punctuation tweaked by the player at 22:47, Thu 16 Sept 2021.

Are we planning on abandon Erastil and go with Pharasma as the 3rd religion?

We already invested time in the Sarenrae deal, so I'd rather we not waste that.

Plus, Pharasma is kinda boring.

@Vyntis: Like I said before, I'm going to take a shot at getting Mivon without the exclusion and then dedicate the next 3 hours to Erastil and Pharasma. Elena was wanting to go for Erastil's Secret(I think this round?) We'll have to see how those rolls go.

@Borric, Kael: Sarenrae's deal doesn't require being an official religion. All's good with her. Abadar, Erastil, and Pharasma would be the 3 'official' religions, whatever that means, if the deals work out.

I'd say midwives and fervent undead slayers are more interesting than bankers, judges, and city planners...
This message was last edited by the player at 13:35, Fri 17 Sept 2021.

Thanks for that point of clarification. So if we get what we want... we can have the benefits of 4 religions.

Swordlords and Restov
Are we good with making deals with the Swordlords and Restov as is?
Does anyone want to attempt to modify these deals or can we sign and seal it?

In reply to Borric d'Tor (msg # 125):

With Restov, we have the Secret so most any of us can sign the deal with a +1 to one of the stats for a simple DC 10 Diplomacy check. It would be a shame to take anything less than that. But, since we still have some time, you could shoot for an even better deal against a higher DC.

Same with Orlovsky.

No one has talked to Swordlords yet. It may be worth investing some time improving if someone has the skills.

Updating my previous recommendations based on where we've already invested.

Gronzi or Medvyed: Exclusive, but have both Gronzi Secret and Medvyed Motivation. We could try to remove the exclusions, but I'm not sure what that'd look like.

Mandatory: Erastil, Pharasma, Restov(Have Secret), Swordlords

If we have time, in order: Goldfield(Have Secret, use it), Gronzi(Have Secret,) Orlovsky(Have Secret, use it,) Erastil Side(since we already have Motivation unlocked), Lebeda(if we remove exclusivity,) Drelev(Have Motivation,) Mivon Side, Numeria Side, Varn(Renegotiate to improve the deal?)

In reply to Borric d'Tor (msg # 125):

Borric@: I have no problems signing the deals you mentioned as is, but because we have the Restov secret, is seems like we can get a free modification then sign the deal.

Dominique@: I know it may not be the best deal on the table but I was planning on using one or two of my remaining actions to try to modify and sign the deal with Medvyed. It would be an important deal for Vyntis.

The description in the Movers thread says that "Artanix is not looking to be the dominant religion and is willing to co-religion with up to 2 other non-evil religions". Is that extra religion something we can negotiate then?

Anyway, I'm kinda at a loss as to what to focus next. We should probably star closing on some of these deals, so I may wait a bit and assist someone if needed.

Oh, and DM, thanks for flipping those rolls and giving us that success with Orlovsky.

@Kael: That was taken care of when Dom negotiated the deal.


@Vyntis: It's actually one of the worst deals on the table, severely restricting our ability to establish our nation and possibly even going so far as to block Erastil's side deal. Dom would sooner deal with Numeria and Ustalav. But I dug through the threads and it seems we're leaning in their favor, 3v2(Borric being silent.) Having their Motivation rather than a Secret, and that motivation being the opposite of ours if we want to fix the deal, also makes things difficult.

There's no reason we can't 'preserve the wild beauty of the stolen lands' and have diplomatic relations with druids without having our hands completely tied for little gain.
This message was last edited by the player at 20:47, Fri 17 Sept 2021.

In reply to Dominique Telvari (msg # 130):

I agree with Dom here :)
Don't remember forgetting to cast a vote.

One point of order you don't have to sign a deal here to specify a state religion. You can just declare it and offer it to any church you want. If you do it after this point though it becomes a kingdom action to establish the diplomatic relations and it might have different effects on your kingdom.

But you could, for example, decide you want Gozreh or Desna as a state religion and they'll definitely send someone to take part in the council.

What you see here are just the religious leaders of the local area that responded to the invitation. Desna for example doesn't have a very strong base of worship in this area so there is no reason to expect a high priest of Desna to show up with a diplomatic deal in hand.

You can also just give a seat to Abadar without entering into any specific deals. No loans, basically but anyone you put into a position of power will have an effect on your kingdom no matter what so choose wisely (or more accurately make choices you can stand behind, for better or worse).

@Borric: There was no vote, I went and searched through posts to dig out people's opinions on things--trying to make sure the more quiet of us weren't getting drowned out. Most besides Elena and I haven't actually said much about their goals or strategy.

@Vyntis: But that makes it an even split on Medvyed. :/ If you could strike a deal that protects our ability to build proper cities and a nation (aqueducts, canals, river locks, sewers, roads, mines, quarries, necessary logging, clear-cutting for farms, etc,) then Dominique would be fine with some restrictions or druid involvement. But since those deal changes go AGAINST their motivation, I don't think their Motivation will help much. Maybe unlocking their secret first could help.

If I can get Erastil and Pharasma on first tries, maybe I could try to strike a deal like "Reasonable restrictions on development, negotiated with druids." Caramip was also Pro-Medvyed so maybe she'd be interested in making the attempt.

Serious question: Do you consider yourself a Court of War or a Court of Peace?

From a mechanics perspective the difference is:

Court of War:
Stats: +1 Operations +1 Resolve
Power: Add a die to attack rolls, +10 feet of movement, movement doesn't trigger AoO
Feature: Pass a DC 13 Operations check to get +2 Comms for the intrigue
Feature: If your comms is higher than enemies, choose a # of enemy units equal to domain size and if they fail a DC 15 Command check you can deploy a unit directly next to them.

Court of Peace:
Stats: +2 Diplomacy
Power: As a reaction after someone is attacked you can add a die to their AC for 1/rnd and gain HP of that die.
Feature: Pass a DC 15 Diplomacy check to increase Comms by 1 and use Diplomacy instead of Espionage for rest of Intrigue
Feature: Pass DC 14 diplomacy check to let all your officers reroll saves vs. spells during next combat against target domain.

Roleplay-wise, I think Court of Peace fits better.  Obviously we're going to do our share of killing, but I don't think military conquest is going to be our main focus.

In terms of mechanics, Court of War seems to function off of communications.  And the thing about communications is: we have no communications.

I just posted information in the Info chat but basically kingdom defense like Comms are split into two parts: stats and levels.

Stats determine the DC of enemy actions. So if they try and break your comms they'll roll vs. DC 10+your comms bonus.

Level is sat from 3 to -3 and during an "intrigue" (think of it like a kingdom vs. kingdom prelude to war where you are spying and sabotaging one another) you can roll to raise your comms or try to lower the enemy comms and so it starts at 0 and can go up and down based on how well your kingdom is defending against code breaking from the enemy.

Okay, so communications is a different thing than communications?  Still, I'm guessing our communications is generally going to be determined by checking our communications, so our poor communications will tend to give us poor communications, even if communications and communications aren't necessarily the same thing.

Domain Defenses have two parts:

Defense Score is your DC for other organizations. If they want to crack your codes then it is vs. your Domain Score. This is what you are negotiating for. I think yours starts at DC 10 so if you get the Hanspur deal then your DC becomes 13.

Defense Level during an Intrigue which is a specific extended fight against another organization/domain/kingdom etc. your defense LEVELs start at 0 and can be raised through actions up to level 3 or lowered to -3. These play a part by offering bonuses or penalties specifically for the big climatic battle either at a army warfare level or at the showdown with the BBEG.

You use your Domain Skills to raise it and your Defense Score protects it as enemies try to lower it.

I have a few questions about the warfare system:

1: What does "diminished" mean?  It's referenced a bunch, but not defined.

2: The definition of "exposed" says "The exception to this is units in the center and reserve ranks."  What does that mean?  Is everything in the center and reserve rank safe from cavalry charges, as long as there's someone in the vanguard?

3: Cavalry are basically ranged units here, right?  They can "charge" any exposed enemy, but stay in the same position on their side of the battlefield the whole time?

4: Why do some units (peasants, goblin smokers) suck so bad?  If all units of the same tier are just as easy to recruit, why have obvious losers on the list?

5: Units lead by non-magic classes all get access to a unique maneuver.  Is there an advantage for units lead by wizards, etc?

6: It's mentioned that there's a max number of units per kingdom level, but I don't see any mention of what that max is.

7: there's a lot of mention of "reaction" abilities.  Is there a limit to how many reactions a unit can take in a turn?
This message was last edited by the player at 21:18, Tue 21 Sept 2021.

1. Diminished means <50% HP.

2. I forgot to add this section for Exposed:


So as long as you have Vanguard and Rear Guard your center and reserve are protected. Once you lose one or the other then your squishy insides are vulnerable to cav charges as per normal rules.

3. I didn't go over deployment but Cavalry and Aerial units aren't actually placed on the battlefield at all. Basically the idea is cavalry are too fast for standard infantry to attack, you need either your own cavalry/aerial units, archers, or use the "Set for Charge" ability to inflict casualites as you are being attacked.

4. Again I didn't go over it but units with the pitchforks are Levies. You get two of them for a recruit action and they are used as cannon fodder. Upside/downside is they go away after battle so you don't have to worry about casualties but they also don't gain XP. Up to you if you want to use them or not but given you only have like 6 or so turns to raise an army, raising some cannon fodder to protect your elite units isn't a terrible idea.

Goblin Smokers suck really bad because they represent kobolds. Against an army they are going  to go down hard. They will be replaced with proper kobold units once the unit deck is published but...yeah. They're just there to acknowledge that you do have access to non-human troops because of your alliance with the kobolds and they can be used to inflict status effects on enemy units but...they're probably not very good for a standing army. You might get some for free though through diplomacy or events.

5. Yes! So All classes provide bonuses to their units. Wizards and other magical classes typically allow for counter magic (bonus on power tests) or provide scrolls and wands to their units. I'll work on typing them up but with my current workload finding time for that is difficult.

Although I guess I don't have to type up every single one...just the classes you have and the domain size you are... hmmm... i'll try and get that done ASAP

6. First of all their is an organizational limit (need more Is then IIs, more IIs than IIIs etc.). I think the limit is around 15 units and/or a single Class V unit (not including special units recruited through diplomacy and special actions.

So as a noble court you can always choose to raise a unit of shock knights but these are like typical medieval knights: local minor nobility sending their sons and daughters to fight for glory and then going back home. To actually "recruit" a unit of permenent knights is a HUGE investment for a nation which is why you only see one or two truly elite units.

Also keep in mind that "size" is relative to scale as well. A unit of knights in a Domain Size 1 kingdom is different than a unit of knights in a Domain Size II kingdom and there are tons of rules for dealing with mismatched kingdom sizes. When it comes up we can deal with it but there are only so many rules I want to throw at you guys.

7. One reaction per round.

Okay, so my understanding here is that the perfect army is just all cavalry.  An all-cavalry army is completely immune to infantry attack, and every cavalry unit in your army can charge the same single enemy unit one after another until it's dead.

We just need to somehow gain access to a tier 2 cavalry, and then we never set foot on the ground again.
This message was last edited by the player at 20:36, Fri 01 Oct 2021.

It's the equivalent of asking why an army has anything besides tanks? Because they're expensive.

You will never be able to field an all cav army because each unit of cavalary requires 1-2 infantry to support it.  (You have to have more tier 1 units than tier 2 units).

But yeah, cavalry was really really really powerful. The author of this ruleset even says that a typical battle starts out with cav vs. cav dueling and the winner of that (as in who still has cav left) has a huge advantage in subsequent fights.

But one of the cheap counters to cavalry are archers as you can get them at tier 1...but then you want to be able to protect those archers from cavalry attacks requiring infantry as only foot soldiers can be used as meat shields for your artillery/archers/spellcasters.

Elena, I would like to suggest that you sign both the deal and the side deal with the Nestarovs with the same action at 12 PM.

I might not be able to, since I rolled diplomacy this turn.  If I can still take the side deal for free, I will.

Okay, I'm feeling a bit of confusion about the exact state of the army, so I thought I'd try to get a more definite handle on things.  Here's how I understand the army situation, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Rivermarch has 2000-3000 citizens, mostly in or near the town of the same name.  500 of those citizens are full-time soldiers.  Still kind of a preposterous amount of mouths to feed if they don't also have day jobs, but that's neither here nor there.  Maybe we've got magic farmers?  Anyways, since we've got four units of soldiers under the kingdom rules, we could say 20% of that number are noncombat support personnel (That's how the romans did it: a roman century was 80 fighters and 20 servants/slaves.)  Which leaves four 100 man companies.  We haven't decided the exact makeup of the army, so lets say two companies of infantry and one each for archers and cavalry.

And from what I understand, these guys mostly suck.  Level 1 warriors with crap gear, the whole lot of them.  But is it all of them that suck, or there people in our army with real class levels, aside from the named NPCs like Akiros?  You mentioned a medic tending to the wounded.  Was that some kind of magical healer, or just a level 1 expert with the heal skill?  And if we apparently sieged the Piper's tower for several days, but didn't actually make any sort of earthworks or catapults or tunnels, I'm assuming we have nothing in the way of combat engineers?

If there aren't any people with real class levels in our army...that's kinda weird?  I mean, this is Pathfinder.  "Wizard" is a regular job people have.  The bandits had maybe fifty people between the lot of them, and five of them were spellcasters (Minerva, Nazaria, the Stag Lord's pet druid, and the two Piper gnomes.)
This message was last edited by the player at 01:01, Fri 11 Feb 2022.

Hmm, I assumed that most of our army would be levies of some kind? Then those numbers could make sense.

Yeah peasants made into soldiers are generally levies but I dunno here, I've not read the rules the DM is using :) (referring to real life middle ages though)

Our GM said "standing army", but to me it makes more sense that it would be a levy or a self-defense militia or whatever you want to call it.  That would explain the huge number of them and their low quality, plus it gives us an in-game reason not to pursue a military solution right away:  It's spring, and you don't take the farmers away from their fields in the spring, unless you want to starve in autumn.

Economics Of A Standing Armmy
I wouldn't try to apply real world economics to a fantasy kingdom. In the real middle ages 90% of your army was levies because as mentioned, having a standing army wasn't really something that happened until economics moved towards late-stage feudalism/early capitalism.

But this is a land with magic and dragons. The middle ages were around 800-1400 BC while here in Pathfinder it's the year 4700s. There have already been huge advanced societies that raised and collapsed so assume that between magic, knowledge, and a different societal focus on things that Pathfinder supports much larger standing armies compared to a real world feudal analog. You guys cut a lot of deals with farmers and churches and merchant organizations so it's taken care of.

---

Exact Numbers of Troops
Army sizes are deliberately kept abstract to avoid people arguing over the numbers. How many troops make up a company? How many are combatant vs. logistics? The bottom line is, it doesn't matter. What matters is how effective they are in the battle field in comparison to other units and that is what the various stats are measuring.

Also keep in mind unit sizes are factored by kingdom size. So in a kingdom like yours, each unit might be a couple hundred. In a kingdom like Brevoy they might be a couple thousand. Exact numbers don't matter. What matters is how effective they are in comparison to the other units on the battlefield.

So how many troops do you have? You have enough troops that you can effectively deploy a unit to do a task. Want to guard the border? Assign a unit and they will get a roll. Want them to scout? Assign a unit. I'll adjust things in the narrative to reflect whether you have a legion of ten thousand parked on a border or a couple hundred skirmishers strategically located at key spots for maximum effectiveness.

---

Class Levels
In general you're not going to find many people who have class levels. Basically class leveled people are doing something special which typically means they're not in a "9-5 job" so your ranks are full of Warriors/Experts/Adepts. That said I've been listing out "special" NPCs that you could tap. I've listed them out and most of you haven't done anything with those lists so if you want someone with class levels to be your general or treasurer etc. then find an NPC you trust and tap them but generic citizen off the street who spends 90% of his time just walking around the city or guarding a city wall doesn't have heroic class levels.

The bandits that you faced were almost entirely composed of level 1-2 warriors with a few leaders that have heroic classes at the top.

---

Levies vs. Professional Soldiers
It is up to you how you want to define what your standing army is composed of. Perhaps it is a true Napoleonic era standing army, or perhaps it is more like reserves where one weekend a month the fighting men and women get some basic training. Up to you but it makes no difference to the narrative.

Levies, which are literally just conscripted peasnats bringing pitchforks to the battlefield as cannon fodder ARE explicitly listed in the rules. As a kingdom action when you are facing off against another kingdom you have the option of recruiting a unit of troops OR you can recruit x2 levies. If you want cannon fodder you can very quickly flood the map with peasants but don't expect much for them. Like in real life the rules seem to support using them as literal meatshields to take hits while your elite troops do the heavy lifting. And like in real life, conscripted levies suck.

Finally once the conclusive battle is fought, the levies go back to the fields while your standing army stays available for the next one. Early on I'm guessing you're not going to need many levies because the battles will be much smaller in scale but if you were to go to war against Brevoy as a late game kingdom you would likely want a half dozen levies or so just to soak up initial cannon fire and spells from enemy artillery and wizards before committing your real troops to the battlefield.

Although that is just my guess. For all I know the rules would favor completely flooding the board with endless levies. I haven't run a battle with it so I don't really know the intricacies of the system yet.