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04:42, 2nd May 2024 (GMT+0)

[OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy.

Posted by Dungeon MasterFor group 0
Elena Sazikova
Human Paladin, 456 posts
Sun 13 Jun 2021
at 00:59
  • msg #50

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

In reply to Saira Ramsey (msg # 49):

Minerva got nicked when the party captured the company of Roses.  She somehow didn't get sent back for execution despite fighting the party twice, setting the trading post on fire, and not even pretending to show remorse at any point.

So, y'know, she's not ideal.  But she's an option.
Dominique Telvari
Human Inquisitor, 367 posts
Inquisitor of Abadar
HP: 22/22 F/R/W: +5/+3/+5
Sun 13 Jun 2021
at 01:31
  • msg #51

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

I could always try to round up some clerics, paladins, and inquisitors of Abadar to fill some positions while I'm in Restov...
Saira Ramsey
Half-Elf Magus, 415 posts
HP 19/19, AC 18/14/14
F/R/W: +5/+4/+5
Sun 13 Jun 2021
at 02:10
  • msg #52

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

In reply to Dominique Telvari (msg # 51):

If we are dead set on reforming her, Saira can actually work her over for a while using https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alter...#Hypnotism_Diplomacy

my chars diplomacy is kind of crap (though, this may be motivation to improve the skill or get magic to do so) but with a little help then teamwork should easily get the job done.

Saira wouldnt be ok with Straight up brainwashing, which this can do... but it would be a pretty simple thing to get her to give us some dirt on her so she stops messing with us and then perhaps even find out what her 'motivation' is and perhaps appeal to that.

I think kesten is from restov, right? I dont think we want to have too many restov people in position of authority.
Caramip Scheppen
Gnome Bard, 569 posts
Why fight when
you can charm?
Sun 13 Jun 2021
at 04:09
  • msg #53

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

I think Minerva was Elena's side project....

Akiros was mine and I think he'd be great in a role...

Oleg and Bokken would be nice but then Oleg might not wish to give up time each month to help rule

Things we'll have to ask them. However they might know others if they don't wish to that would do them.
Caramip Scheppen
Gnome Bard, 577 posts
Why fight when
you can charm?
Sat 3 Jul 2021
at 00:52
  • msg #54

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

You okay boss?
Borric d'Tor
Human Cavalier, 942 posts
Mon 5 Jul 2021
at 14:24
  • msg #55

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

DM will be back in time. I've been gaming with prague for years. I've needed to take some time to deal with my own RL stuff. We're trying to sell our home and purchase a new home. Yikes!

But right now... it's cleaning time!!!
Caramip Scheppen
Gnome Bard, 579 posts
Why fight when
you can charm?
Tue 6 Jul 2021
at 01:00
  • msg #56

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

Hope things go well for you Borric, I see prague posted and I know well how life can suck your energy. Just glad to know we are continuing as I've become very vested in Caramip :)
Dungeon Master
GM, 1215 posts
Teller of tales
Lord of lies
Sun 1 Aug 2021
at 13:53
  • msg #57

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

In the K&W rules the positions that you take up give you actual mechanical bonuses to combat encounters.

Here is what I think people are going to naturally fit into but you are free to disagree and negotiate one way or another:

TitleBenefitPlayer?
Court Mage+1 spell slotSaira or her replacement
Court MinstrelFree Hideous laughter castingCara
High PriestCan heal while attackingDominique
Spymaster+Sneak AttackKael
Master-At-ArmsGain teamwork featElena
Ruler+1d6 to a stat per encounterBorric

How does everyone feel about this? Once I know who wants what role I can PM you the real details about your bonus abilities. There is also some wiggle room so like if the Minstrel would rather a different 1st level spell to be their free casting we can talk it over.
Kael Valleni
Half-Elf Magus, 612 posts
Mon 2 Aug 2021
at 09:24
  • msg #58

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

I'm fine with the spymaster position. I do like that we could now cover all positions with PCs. One question though, over in the other thread the benefit of being the Master Assassin is listed as "Bonus to stealth. Gain +1d6 precision damage to every attack with light or ranged weapons." Would Kael be able to benefit from this since he does not use a light or ranged weapon?
Borric d'Tor
Human Cavalier, 947 posts
Mon 2 Aug 2021
at 12:30
  • msg #59

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

Sounds good here
Dungeon Master
GM, 1217 posts
Teller of tales
Lord of lies
Wed 4 Aug 2021
at 05:28
  • msg #60

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

@Kael: It's intended obviously for a more roguey character but given his build I could see the argument for say, +1d4 sneak attack damage for a weapon wielded in one hand, going up to +1d6 for a light/ranged weapon.

OR maybe you and Saira swap spots.
Kael Valleni
Half-Elf Magus, 614 posts
Wed 4 Aug 2021
at 10:44
  • msg #61

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

Eh, whatever you decide on will be enough. I kinda like the idea of making a sneaky character. Magus chassis is not exactly build for pure arcane power, and I messed up the build too much for a pure frontline fighter.

Do these kingdom rules assume running a 5E game? Or are they completely agnostic about what is used? Unless I'm mistaken, limitation on which weapon can be used to sneak attack is a 5E thing. In Pathfinder, one can happily "sneak-attack" with a battle axe.
Caramip Scheppen
Gnome Bard, 585 posts
Why fight when
you can charm?
Wed 4 Aug 2021
at 15:58
  • msg #62

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

Hmm I was aiming for the Grand Diplomat but I don't see it above, are there other positions you didn't list, I mean I'm more a storyteller than a minstrel :), I can't really play an instrument or sing that well :)
Dungeon Master
GM, 1218 posts
Teller of tales
Lord of lies
Wed 4 Aug 2021
at 19:02
  • msg #63

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

The roles are built around mechanical classes, not general positions. So the "Master-at-arms" can easily be called your Warlord, your General, your Warden etc.

Same as your court minstrel could be called a diplomat, courtier, ambassador etc.
Dominique Telvari
Human Inquisitor, 372 posts
Inquisitor of Abadar
HP: 22/22 F/R/W: +5/+3/+5
Wed 4 Aug 2021
at 19:06
  • msg #64

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

I'm fine with High Priest.
Caramip Scheppen
Gnome Bard, 586 posts
Why fight when
you can charm?
Wed 4 Aug 2021
at 20:40
  • msg #65

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

Okay I'm fine with the Minstrel in that case.
Dungeon Master
GM, 1222 posts
Teller of tales
Lord of lies
Wed 4 Aug 2021
at 21:12
  • msg #66

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

Also keep in mind there is the concept of a shadow government. So you could appoint, say, Kesten Garess to the role of High General but if Elena is the Master-at-Arms, no matter what her actual role or title is in game Kesten would defer to her on military matters.

Same with Dominique/Cara and the rest. You could appoint an NPC to a court position but your title here kind of informally determines your sphere of influence:


High Priest - Resolve
Court Ministrel - Diplomacy
Spymaster - Espionage
Master-at-arms - Operations
Court Mage - Lore
Ruler - Resources
Elena Sazikova
Human Paladin, 471 posts
Sat 7 Aug 2021
at 15:05
  • msg #67

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

I'm listing the basic kingdom rules here, since I think it'll be easier than constantly searching through the fast-moving OOC thread.

Dungeon Master:
Alright at a high level this is the rules that I am looking at:

A Domain is defined by 4 skills: Diplomacy, Espionage, Lore, and Operations. These are the ways your kingdom are active. If you want to make a treaty? Roll diplomacy. Spy on the enemy? Roll espionage. Research a curse or monster plaguing your realm? Lore. Muster your army and engineers to change the land? Operations.

These are obvious just examples but you get the jist.

Diplomacy is your soft power and influence represented by courtiers, bards, diplomats, friendly merchants and nobles etc.

Espionage is your underworld power represented by spies, thieves, and bandits.

Lore is your intellectual power representing priests, mages, scholars, and historians.

Operations is your physical power representing soldiers, servants, slaves, and builders.


A Domain also has 3 defenses: Communications, Resolve, and Resources. When bad things happen to your kingdom it will be tested against one of these three. Can you get the message about the trap to your army in time? Can your people hold fast under an orc siege until reinforcements come. Can you feed your peasants after a blight ruins the crops.

Communication represents how fast and accurate you can deliver orders in response to an event. Can your subjects get you the information you need quickly and accurately and take your decisions back in time to be enacted.

Resolve represents how much trust your people have in you and your kingdom. High resolve means that people will trust in the system, low resolve will result in rebels rising up and rogue officers going off on their own.

Resources represents raw materials: food, wood, gold etc.






A Noble Court starts out as the following:
Diplomacy: +2
Espionage: +0
Lore: -1
Operatoins: +1

Communication: 10
Resolve: 12
Resources: 11

In addition there are titles that when given out represent both ownership or status as well as providing a cool bonus to your character:

Court Mage - Gain an extra spell slot of your highest level
Court Minstrel - Bonus to performance. Can cast Hideous Laughter 1/encounter without expending a spell slot
High Priest - 1/turn when you damage a creature with an attack or spell you can also heal someone within 30' for 1d2/level
Master Assassin - Bonus to stealth. Gain +1d6 precision damage to every attack with light or ranged weapons.
Master-At-Arms - Gain a teamwork feat that you can also grant to an ally each round

Finally the ruler gets this ability: It's kind of complicated but basically you can add +1d6 to one ability score each encounter.




In addition as a Noble Court you gain access to a specialty

A Court of War provides bonuses to your tactical combat like extra damage and the ability to ignore AoOs while moving

A Political Administration focused on statecraft lets you better defend your realm and even use Diplomacy instead of Espionage for some rolls.

A Legacy Administration puts heavy emphasis on the rulers that came before. It lets you summon aid from unexpected sources as well as blocking enemies from getting aid from their allies.


Anyway this system overall is very focused on mass warfare. The idea behind these rules is that with the skill checks it is easy to create problems and resolve them but it turns kingdom warfare into a game in and of itself. There are all sorts of exciting units you can get, like elven wood rangers or even a dragon! What you decide to spend your "kingdom actions" doing to raise your army and how you use them effectively are very important. Do you use your court mages to counter their heavy infantry, or do you try to pepper them from afar with mounter archers. Those kinds of decisions. Looking into it the warfare system is much more engaging than the default Kingmaker.

Long story short...i like it. You aren't micromanaging to determine which house goes in which slot. Instead it is an emphasis on where do you want your kingdoms strengths and weaknesses to lie, and when the fighting starts how do you want your armies to engage.

Elena Sazikova
Human Paladin, 473 posts
Sat 7 Aug 2021
at 17:06
  • msg #68

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

That said, what should be our high-level goals, both at the ceremony and in general?  I'm mostly gonna base my decisions off of roleplaying concerns (I don't particularly care what bonuses Surtova or the Technic League are offering, for example,) But it couldn't hurt to have a general strategy for the numbers.

We have three options on type of court: War, Political, or Legacy.  War has tasty combat bonuses, and we are going to be fighting a lot.  Political sounds like it would make the kingdom level easier (and let us min-max by dumping espionage a little.  Legacy...I don't really know what that would look like.  Heavily integrating the kobolds, fey, etc into the government?  Of these three I'm leaning towards a political administration.

As for the stats themselves, it's hard to say.  For the active skills, it's usually better to specialize in one or two abilities, and then try to solve most problems with said abilities (Lore problem?  Use diplomacy to find someone who knows more than us!)  I'd personally put our skill priorities as Diplomacy > Operations > Lore > Espionage.

The defenses sound like saving throws, and since we don't really know what saves are going to be most common, we should probably just treat them all as equally important, and roughly as valuable as the active skills.  So that puts my personal priority at something like:

Diplomacy > Operations > (Resources/Communications/Resolve) > Lore > Espionage


Looking over the options, I can quickly split the deals into four groups.

Important negotiations:
-Abadar: remove exclusivity
-Erastil: remove exclusivity

Pretty acceptable as is:
-Sarenrae
-House Garess
-Orlovsky
-Aldori
-Restov
-Farmers guild
-Galt
-Varnhold

Maybe: (good deals, might cause problems.)
-Gronzi Lumber
-Daggermark Assassins
-Hanspur
-Lebeda

Unacceptable as-is:
-Mivon: Must remove pledge of neutrality.
-Gorum: already have religions
-Pharasma: already have religions
-Surtova: Loyalist
-Lovodka: Loyalist
-Medvyed: Zero-sum trade
-Numeria: Slaver trash.
-Pitax: Probably hostile.
-Ustalav: Their rebellions are their business.
-Drelev: I'm not spending a turn on that.


If we take all the deals in the first two groups without changing the numbers, that will give us a total of:

+4 diplomacy, +3 Operations, +3 Lore, +0 espionage, +5 resources, +2 Resolve, +0 communications, +2 Stability(Probably supposed to be resolve, stability isn't a stat.)

All the "maybes" together add up to another:
-4 Diplo, -1 lore, +5 Espionage, +5 Resources, +2 communications
Which is an issue, because we (or I, at least) want diplomacy more than espionage.

And if we can get Mivon on board that's another:
+2 Diplomacy, -2 Operations, +1 Espionage, +2 Resource, +1 Resolve.

Which is generally good, though it puts our operations lower than I'd like.


The conclusion of all this faffing around seems to be that taking all of the obvious deals will give us a solid base of skills.  Mivon, Hanspur, Gronzi and Daggermark are all good numerically, though they harm our core skills of Diplomacy and Operations (I consider them our core skills, you guys might disagree.)  If we're taking them, we should try to find deals that raise our diplomacy and operations to counter the penalties.  Also, there's a lot of resources being thrown at us, so deals that cost us resources might be easier to stomach then other penalties.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:47, Sat 07 Aug 2021.
Kael Valleni
Half-Elf Magus, 619 posts
Sat 7 Aug 2021
at 20:51
  • msg #69

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

Kael's position on the whole loyalist - separatist affair is that we should stay neutral and far, far away from something that is quite likely to quickly escalate to a very, very bloody civil war. He does not care about Surtova, but he does not wish to help start a civil war either.

With that in mind, here's what Kael would prefer.

Court: Legacy, because that just sounds interesting
Priorities: Operations > Lore > Resources > Communication > Resolve > Espionage > Diplomacy

As for the deals...

Good as is, negotiations might make it better:
  • Sarenrae - good aligned, interesting and we can take another pick, what's not to like?
  • Erastil - I'm assuming we can combine it with Sarenrae as is, but if we need to negotiate for that then that should be a priority
  • Mivoni - a decent deal, and they are neutral
  • Varnhold - probably the only really good guy here
  • Garess - I like this, and it might be a hook to something interesting in the future
  • Gronzi Lumber - not sure if compatible with Garess, might need to negotiate if not


Possibly good with some negotiations:
  • Abadar - we need to make him work with other religions
  • Lebeda - we need to first figure out what exactly will go wrong, because something definitely will
  • Restov - Restov is a natural trading partner to us, but we would need to negotiate neutrality first
  • Rostland Farmers - if possible let's not give away what little decent farmland we actually have right now
  • Galt - don't like giving the exclusive access to ruins here, we might be interested in some of those ourselves
  • Daggermark - how the hell does an exclusive deal with a guild of assassins even work?


Stay far, far away:
  • All parties that would make us part of the two main factions
  • Pharasma - because we already have three religions and can't take more, plus Pharasma is just boring
  • Gorum - too "blood for the blood god"
  • Hanspur - too chaotic even for Kael
  • Medvyed - untouched wilderness is hardly in short supply in our lands, in fact that's pretty much all we have at the moment
  • Numeria - embracing river freedoms may not be a great idea for building something that will last, but slavery is still a big no-no
  • Pitax - bad guys here
  • Ustalav - yeah, let's not get involved in even more civil wars
  • Drelev - does not seem to bring anything to the table


Anyway, that's my pitch for neutrality. If the party decides to support the Rostland faction, Kael will of course go along with that.
Borric d'Tor
Human Cavalier, 957 posts
Sat 7 Aug 2021
at 22:28
  • msg #70

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

Elena/Kael - I think both of you are almost talking about the same thing :)

Let me sorta butcher it up. Here is what I'm thinking (repeating several ideas)


Looking over the options, I can quickly split the deals into four groups.

Important negotiations:
-Abadar: remove exclusivity
-Erastil: remove exclusivity

-Aldori: remove joining the separatist
-Restov: remove joining the separatist


Pretty acceptable as is:
-Sarenrae
-House Garess
-Orlovsky
-Farmers guild
-Galt
-Varnhold

Maybe: (good deals, might cause problems.)
-Gronzi Lumber
-Daggermark Assassins
-Hanspur
-Lebeda

Unacceptable as-is:
-Mivon: Must remove pledge of neutrality. <--- Maybe we can attempt this if we have time
-Gorum: already have religions
-Pharasma: already have religions
-Surtova: Loyalist
-Lovodka: Loyalist
-Medvyed: Zero-sum trade
-Numeria: Slaver trash.
-Pitax: Probably hostile.
-Ustalav: Their rebellions are their business.
-Drelev: I'm not spending a turn on that.
Elena Sazikova
Human Paladin, 474 posts
Thu 12 Aug 2021
at 15:30
  • msg #71

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

While I'm for sticking with the Swordlords, I'm not strongly against joining Mivon in the neutrality route.  I am against completely hedging our bets and not making any commitments like Borric seems to be suggesting.  We need at least one real ally, and every action spent removing the exclusivity conditions is an action not spent making numbers go up.

Maybe we should just put it to a vote?  I officially vote for staying with Rostland and the Swordlords.
Borric d'Tor
Human Cavalier, 959 posts
Thu 12 Aug 2021
at 16:55
  • msg #72

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

Elena Sazikova:
I officially vote for staying with Rostland and the Swordlords.


I'm with you on this too.

But did we want to remove their exclusivity clause or be a separatist too?
Borric d'Tor
Human Cavalier, 960 posts
Thu 12 Aug 2021
at 17:03
  • msg #73

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

State Religion

State ReligionOfferExclusiveMotivationSecretOpt Objective
Abadar+2 Resources, +1 OperationsYes, -1 ResolveAppraiseCraft/ProfessionKn (Religion)
Erastil+1 Resolve, +1 ResourcesYes, NoneSurvivalKn (Religion)Kn (Nature)
Sarenrae+2 Espionage, +1 OperationsCo-mingle w/2 others, -1 Diplomacy, -1 ResolveKn (Religion)Sense MotiveKn (Planes)

Alrighty! I think I got the gist of what we are trying to do here :)
So who is feeling lucky!?!



We have a several more skill checks if we want to secure all 3 religions to our state. Even though I suspect that we're not going to be proficient in all of the skills... step up if you're feeling LUCKY!  :)

Let me know if we want to add or drop one of these are potential religions.
Caramip Scheppen
Gnome Bard, 598 posts
Why fight when
you can charm?
Thu 12 Aug 2021
at 17:16
  • msg #74

Re: [OOC] Kingdom Planning & Development Strategy

You aren't going to remove the separatist and loyalist exclusions I don't think.

Given what just happened it is clear that Pitax is hostile and perhaps looking to take over the Green Belt themselves, we will need the Swordlords and Restov or someone else that might can help defend should the time come.
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