Here you can specifically focus on kingdom development. I know it is a bit in limbo because the rules have not been decided upon but here are some basics that should get you started:

The following needs to be decided upon:

1. What is the name of this new country?
   
   
2. Where will its capital/first city stand?
   
   
3. What type of country will it be (Democracy? Monarchy? Oligarchy? Merchant Republic? Nomadic Tribes?
   
   
4. What kind of alignment will the country overall have (I don't know if this will have any game mechanics but helps set overall flavor)
   
   
5. What will be the primary religion(s) of the area? Naturally this area is big on Erastil, Pharasma, and Gorum so those will default be the big three unless you put pressure to elevate one above the others or bring a new god into the area.
   
   
6. What kind of theme/flavor/emphasis will the country have:
   -Militaristic & Utilitarian
   -Diplomatic & Cosmopolitan
   -Mercantile & Commerce
   -Peace & Stability
   -Theological & Divinity
   -Arcane & Knowledge
   -Primal & Naturalistic
   
   Again not sure if this will have any mechanical changes yet but will effect neighboring attitudes, what kind of "look" cities have (i.e. are they rugged and built for defense, are they integrated with nature so there are trees and parks everywhere which results in a very chaotic and meandering feel, is it a mishmash of cultures and races etc.
   
   
7. Whether you want to fully absorb the kobolds, leave them as an independent ally, or drive them out either with force or through diplomatic pressure for them to find a new home.

I like kaels question, what did the first charter say? it will impact decisions here.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:06, Tue 08 June 2021.

1. Barony of Tuskwater is Cara's Suggestion.

2. Stag Lord's Fort, it's an already built fort...expediating any claim. It is also located on Tuskwater Lake which is why she suggests Barony of Tuskwater. Calling it a Barony instead of a Kingdom is also less threatening to the neighbors.

3. Caramip thinks that we should be a Monarchy with Borric as Baron :).

4. Neutral is Caramip's suggestion.

5. Caramip has no strong leanings here.

6. I think Mercantile and Commerce. We'd need a road from Oleg's to our new Capital, Tuskwater City :). This road should come near the kobold's to facilitate trade. With their gold mine that wold be a hefty boost to any commerce in the area.

7. Cara would like to see the Kobolds official parts of the kingdom, they already have a mine and workers. So it would be better to seek diplomatic relations than to run them off and attempt to recruit new miners to take their places (miners that unless they were gnomes or halflings would have to expand the tunnels etc to properly mine before work could become).

In reply to Saira Ramsey (msg # 2):

I think the major difference is that the new Charter declares the new country independent, where the old Charter promised land as part of Brevoy / Rostland? Not sure what else could it be.


Anyway, I don't know if Kael should get any say in this, but here's his opinion anyway.

1. "How often do you get a chance to name a country? I say, go wild an make up a name that would draw settlers in. Just don't mention tusks, claws, fangs, blood, owlbears, spiders, or any other wildlife. I mean, if you were a hopeful colonist and you had a choice between Tusk-something and, say, Candyland, which place would you pick?" Kael asks, only half-jokingly.

2. The Stag Lord's fort would seem like an obvious location. A ruined fort is a half-built fort, and it is located on a waterway.

3. Why, Anarcho-syndicalist commune, of course. Ok, seriously, some form of monarchy would be the best fit, possibly with a generous dab of oligarchy so that the rest of the Charter signatories also have some official say in running the place.

4. NG. Most of us are good-aligned (I think?), and neutrality is a compromise between those of us that follow the law strictly and those that don't give a toss about it.

5. Eh, Kael does not really care about any of those. We do have a ruined temple and an NPC priest of Erastil, and Erastil is good-aligned so he does get a bit of an edge with Kael, even if he is a giant stick in the mud. Pharasma is just plain boring, and Gorum is way too blood-for-the-blood-god for Kael's taste. Maybe we should import some new gods.

6. I guess Peace and Prosperity would be my pick from those? Arcane & Knowledge is also tempting, but at the moment just taming the place would seem a priority.

7. Leave them independent for now, absorb them later when people get used to them (and vice-versa).

I don't think we've seen the contents of either charter, but Kesten's summation of the second is here: link to a message in this game

1. I dunno. I've been listening to blues lately and thought 'Caldonia' could be a good kingdom name. https://www.youtube.com/watch?...annel=ElwoodYodogawa

2. We should probably survey in the coming weeks to decide. The Stag Lord's hex might be a good place with both lake and river access and proximity to both plains and forest, but there's still a lot of the game map hidden.

3. Maybe some form of Constitutional Monarchy or Oligarchy. Meritocratic rather than Hereditary or Nepotistic would be nice.

4. Neutral. While Dom greatly values the role of law in founding a stable and productive society, he recognizes the worth of those with a chaotic nature--so long as they act within the laws. And although Good is certainly more desirable than Evil, those who pursue their self-interest, within the law, are still beneficial to society.

5. Abadar, of course! Most goodly and/or law-abiding religions should be welcome, but Erastil is a god of villages, not proper nations! Of course, not being High Priest, Dom would settle for sharing the hearts of the people with others. Gorum might be a problem, though.

6. Mercantile & Commerce, Peace & Stability

7. If they're on our lands, they are our subjects. If they follow the laws and pay the taxes, they are welcome to stay.

OOC: I think the old charter was just "Kill Stag Lord, get paid."

1. "If I took a trip to Candyland and it was full of owlbears, I don't know how happy I'd be about it."  Elena responded, also half-joking.  "I like 'Tuskwater'.  I don't love it, but I don't have any better ideas.  Maybe...since everyone calls this the stolen land, we could change it to Found Land?  New-Found-Land?"

2. "I agree, the fort seems like the obvious spot to start building."

3. "I think we're all behind Borric as lord, but I think the council should be able to overrule or replace the baron if it has to.  If (gods forbid) Borric dies, I don't want some cousin or sibling showing up with a claim to rule us."

4.  "We should aim to be neutral good.  That doesn't mean chasing off anyone who detects as evil, but why WOULDN'T we try to encourage goodness?"

5.  "I mean to help build up a temple to Shelyn once I get a chance, but the Eternal Rose has no aims to rule.  I suppose the real question is, do we outlaw worship of any gods?  I've never heard of a Kuthite or a Rovagug-worshipper doing good for their community, but do we come down on them even if they've committed no other crimes?" 

Elena thought for a moment.  "I don't think we should.  Even an evil god can have neutral aspects and neutral believers, and banning worship would only drive them underground."

6.  "I think we should focus on staying Diplomatic and Cosmopolitan.  We'll sink or swim on our relations with our neighbors, and trying to attract settlers from as many different places as possible would only make us stronger.  Besides, cosmopolitan cities always produce the best art and culture."

7. "Are the kobolds on our lands, Dom?  Or are they on their lands?  Brevoy might not recognize their territory, but we did.  I'm all for bringing them into the country once they're ready, but right now they'll only be our subjects if we conquer them.  And break a peace treaty to do it."
This message was last edited by the player at 16:13, Wed 09 June 2021.

1) I'm good with Barony of Tuskwater
2) The fort is a great place to build up.
3) Monarchy is classic DnD, but that does feel like there's a target on Borric. We could also try a Council with an elected leader type of stuff. This I imagine would have a big impact on the game... go going down the classic monarch route is good for me. This is the 1st Kingmaker game that I can say has gone this far :)
4) Key words on alignment: Good <--- strong reason, Laws are necessary, But not too strict type of LG. So how about LG/LN/NG what is the happy medium of those three???

I propose LN with a tendency for Good.

5) Erastil, I do like this one LG. Family, farming, hunting and trade are his areas of concern.

6) These areas
-Peace & Stability <--------- This is the goal
But you need the following to get to the goal. So I would imagine that we need merchants and commerce to build a tax base to work on diplomacy and whatever cosmopolitan is, but I want it :)
-Mercantile & Commerce
-Diplomatic & Cosmopolitan

7) I'm with Kael on the kobolds.

---

I think that Borric is all over the map :)

This message was last edited by the player at 17:46, Wed 09 June 2021.

In reply to Elena Sazikova (msg # 6):

I’ll have to look up whatever promises were made, but the nation can’t survive if we just accept sovereignty of every single person inhabiting the lands we mean to claim. If they benefit from the safety we provide and the trade which that brings then they have a duty to pay the taxes necessary to provide it.

Just so you know the alignments of the surrounding places:

Brevoy/Rostland: Chaotic Neutral
Nuemria: Chaotic Neutral
Pitax: Chaotic Neutral
Mivon: Chaotic Neutral


So....just putting it out there if you try and establish yourself as a bastion of law and principles with strict rules and borders etc. you might be in conflict with your neighbors.

Pretty much every surrounding nation is a "might makes right" kind of place. Nothing is really illegal, mob justice is the main form of justice, there aren't really customs and borders and large parts of the countryside are ruled by bandits and worse that kick up a bribe to the authorities.

They're not evil, just the River Kingdoms believe in freedom above all else. Everyone here pretty much came here to get away from rigid law and order and the River Kingdoms are notorious for heroes and mercenaries coming in and just carving up a new land only for it to collapse within a generation.

The River Kingdoms version of the "UN" is called the Outlaw Council and as refresher here are the River Freedoms:

https://pathfinder.fandom.com/wiki/River_Freedoms

Now to complicate things while you are getting the nod from Rostland (and apparently reluctantly from Brevoy) this area is still commonly considered part of the River Kingdoms so if you decide not to be a River Kingdom and distance yourself from the River Freedoms that might put you at odds with Mivon and Pitax...but might also put you closer to Brevoy and the Swordlords.

You will find that everything political from here on out is a tug of war between multiple different factions. Right now they can be boiled down into three main groups: Brevoy, Swordlords, and River Kingdoms.

However other factions that could be considered are Galt, Numeria, Taldor, Mendev, Kyonin and even the wild barbarians to the east in Iobaria.
This message was last edited by the GM at 21:28, Wed 09 June 2021.

In reply to Elena Sazikova (msg # 6):


This was the last post on the topic I found and Borric never posted whether he signed this agreement. That corridor runs between stag lord’s fort and Oleg’s/Brevoy. I’m not sure if we start with any claimed hexes so it might be some time before we need to press the issue.

Huh, I just sorta assumed we signed the treaty, since nobody said otherwise.  I also didn't realize the current treaty gave them our gold mine.. Out of character, the best way to do it is probably to wait for six months, then show up with a small army and tell them "Welcome to tuskwater!  Here's a flag, you work for us, now!"

They're lawful evil, they'd probably respect that sort of thing.

In reply to Elena Sazikova (msg # 12):

This works for me.

This is important to know. So we're probably going to need to get/show a strong front. Or we'll be ripe for the picking. We can shift to an alignment that we'd like it to be in the future. But we need to work in the environment that we have... and we're a small fish in a big pond :)

Are you suggesting that we make the barony CN, and go full Bandit Kingdom to fit in?  It's an option, sure, but not the only one.  A River King can make whatever rules he wants as long as he doesn't trample the river freedoms too badly (and is decent at murdering people).  Courts are for kings, after all.

And most of the River Freedoms are pretty reasonable, except for "You have what you hold."  But even that one's ambiguous enough that it probably won't be a problem.

In reply to Elena Sazikova (msg # 15):

I'd rather not go CN personally and it doesn't fit Borric either. He is LG.
But he/we all have the shared responsibility to succeed in this environment where every nation around us is CN and "Might Makes Right".

So we need to be smarter/better/mighter than the rest :)

~gets off soapbox~

So we need to be the shield for the nation/people.

And why do I feel another ambush of assassins in the near future :)

I've been reading what kingdom names others have used and here's a couple of examples, some just for laughs, some serious. Kael would be in favor of the most exotic and interesting name we could think of, but preferably not something that gives off an impression that being eaten by something is a real possibility here.

Emerald Barony / Kingdom (this area is called Greenbelt after all)
Australia (because it's full of monsters)
Greenland
Owlbearony
The democratic peoples republic of Golarion
Mordor
For Sale
Hartland
Feylands
Silvermarch

As for the River Freedoms, Kael's suggestion would be to not (officially) recognize those. Whatever good aspects of them they have can be covered instead by our laws. He has a feeling those freedoms are a big part of the reason why the River Kingdoms in general and the Stolen Lands in particular are what they are, a heaven for bandits and pirates. "You Have What You Hold" is the most important freedom after all. If you wish to build something that lasts here, that one in particular has to go. And that's coming from someone with chaotic alignment.

If that puts as at odds with our River Kingdoms neighbors, well that's fine. Because I think we should distance ourselves from them anyway in favor of tighter bonds with Brevoy / Rostland. I also think that we should not take the CN route, instead going for neutral-something (preferably good).

In reply to Borric d'Tor (msg # 16):

It's ok borric, The Hedge (work in progress lodge name) has us all covered.

Though, I agree with borric... playing nice until we at least have a foot hold is the smart move.

In reply to Kael Valleni (msg # 17):

I like the sound of the Silvermarch.
Was that from FR?

To be fair, it was Restov, a CN town of a CN state in a CN nation that sent us to kill bandits. We may border the River Kingdoms, but I don't think that means we have to honor all of the River Freedoms. And I think a nation can be CN and still have strong, basic laws--it's more about the number and breadth of the laws and how much freedom they allow. We could certainly outlaw murder, theft, banditry, etc and be CN. It's when we outlaw drug use, prostitution, and skipping leg day that we flirt with LN.

In reply to Borric d'Tor (msg # 19):

No clue. It was a name somebody used for their kingdom in the crpg Kingmaker. Not sure how much the Silver part fits though. There is a lake Silverstep to the east of where we were, but it's not exactly close by. Something-else-march(es)? I do like the march part.

Silver Marches is Forgotten Realms and possibly an inspiration for the name. Keep in mind though calling yourself Silvermarch makes you sound like you got a lot of silver, which means more bandits etc to disrupt your kingdom, m'Lord.
This message was last edited by the player at 14:49, Thu 10 June 2021.

In reply to Caramip Scheppen (msg # 22):

Well it's less of a target than GoldMarch :p

I like Silvermarch.  We've got a silver mine, and "march" is an archaic term for a frontier or border.  I'm fine with it or Tuskwater.  Neither are amazing, but I don't have any better ideas (other than Newfoundland.)

As for the River Freedoms, I would like to argue that they're good, actually.  Actually looking over them:

1: "Say what you will, I'm still free."
    We've got free speech where I live, and that's generally working out okay.

2: "Oathbreakers Die."
   This is a weird one, but I kinda like it.  In practice, it's not "Every fib is punishable by death," but "Breaking a sworn oath is a serious crime."  As an added bonus, that means you can usually trust sworn oaths.

3: "Walk any road, float any river."
   Were we planning on restricting travel heavily?  Really, this is a foreign policy concern: If we restrict trade too much, it gives everyone in the River Kingdoms casus belli to fight us.

4: "Courts are for kings."
   This is just acknowledging that different places have the right to set their own laws.  I know some of us want to start enforcing Abadar's doctrine on a global scale, but what if we didn't?

5: "Slavery is an abomination."
   Yes, correct.

6:  "You have what you hold."
   Now this one doesn't sound great.  But you could easily interpret it less as "Robbery is good," than "Don't obsess over old grudges or claims of ownership."  And that's good for us, personally.  Because EVERY one of our neighbors has a claim on the Stolen Lands.  That's where the name comes from.  Our claim is what?  That one faction leader of one neighboring country signed a paper?  It's not even Brevoy's land to give!

No, our legal claim on the territory is that we have what we hold.  If some mining company tries to claim that old gold mine we found?  Nope!  They shoulda held onto it!  If we expand south, and some Mivon noble shows up with an old piece of paper saying the land is his?  We're legally entitled to make a "jerk off" motion and push them out the door.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:40, Thu 10 June 2021.