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07:28, 29th March 2024 (GMT+0)

[RULES] Ask the DMs.

Posted by The Dungeon MasterFor group 0
Ventrikel
player, 119 posts
Swedish dude.
Thu 20 Apr 2023
at 15:22
  • msg #451

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

Wouldn’t lamashtu be maybe the best fit? I don’t know if I’m missing some context, but as the goddess of madness, fear feels right up her alley. Intense, maybe irrational emotion - especially when it makes you do irrational things. Confusion. That’s fear, that’s psychosis. I’m all for a pragmatic use of alignments and gods myself, and using Lamashtu as a tool to utterly defeat enemies through the use of extreme fear, that’s pretty cool. Kinda Batman’s Scarecrow, except being sane yourself. Kinda Batman? (Although it’s debatable how the ‘sane yourself’ criterion fits him)
Tom_Clancy's_Ghost_Recon
player, 143 posts
Thu 20 Apr 2023
at 15:51
  • msg #452

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

The Punisher > Batman.

"You know what I think of you hero? I think you're a coward. I think, you're a half measure. I think you don't have the guts to do what needs to be done. Let me ask you something. Did somebody ask you to put on that costume or did you take it upon yourself? Yeah. You go out there. You beat up the bad guys. Knock'em down. Then they get back up. You leave a mess for people like me to clean up. What I do, I just do. When I knock'em down they stay down. They don't get back up."



I actually dropped that whole fear aspect. It was why I switched. I also personally don't like any sort of madness aspect. Madness, Insanity, Mental illness... It has no place in any character I ever make. I refuse to allow it to be afflicted on and affect any character of mine in any way. It is a hard no and an absolute deal breaker. a line that does not get crossed. It isn't even something I joke about. I have known and still continue to know people that have legitimate mental health problems and I see how it wrecks their life. Out of respect, I won't make a game out of it. That is why I didn't go for that deity at all.

I appreciate the input though. Thank you. :)
Vatticone
player, 54 posts
Thu 20 Apr 2023
at 17:30
  • msg #453

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

You could also worship some lesser deity more to your liking. One of Pharasma's psychopomps could be more fitting to your concept of exactly which of Pharasma's domains you focus on. There's also Empyreal Lords which might work. Ragathiel is big on vengeance, Arshea would be very anti-sex-abuse and tyranny. There's also Infernal Dukes or even Asmodeus who would be fitting of a death/vengeance-focused bounty hunter(though slavery would be kosher for them in 1E--I've heard maybe not in 2E.)

https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Empyreal_lord
https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Psychopomp_usher
https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Archdevil
https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Infernal_duke
https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Malebranche
https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Asura_rana

The Red Mantis is focused on assassins, but could be fitting of a death-dealing bounty hunter.
https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Achaekek

There's also, of course, worshiping an ideal or cult rather than a specific deity. I had an inquisitor who worshiped both Pharasma and, in a way, Groetus, and believed sending souls to the boneyard was the only way to combat the coming apocalypse. Sure, evil and undead were preferable, but Pharasma would be a better judge of innocence than he could be.
https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Groetus
Edit: I swear I read somewhere that the souls of atheists were fed to Groetus and drew him closer, but I can't find that now. Either it was retconned with 2E or I'm crazy.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:50, Thu 20 Apr 2023.
praguepride
player, 383 posts
He's proud
of Prague
Sat 22 Apr 2023
at 21:51
  • msg #454

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

Lamashtu is madness but doesn't actually do the subdomain of fear. She is the mother of monsters, but not really from a fear & chaos perspective. Even those like Ravogug are just about mass destruction and not really "fear".

When I started digging through the entire deity list I figured it had to be there somewhere but....nope. Unlike Forgotten Realms or other D&D settings, Fear seems to have been completely overlooked by the major and minor powers. You really only get

A) Non-humans (see my notes above) that just throw Evil (Fear) on every god in their pantheon that kind of defeats the purpose

B) Waaaay outside of Golarion pantheons

C) Those two very very very minor gods although they both fit the bill however being evil murder cults means not exactly something you put out in the open.

Personally if I'm going for a fun god I'd follow Groetus, the God of the End Times. Basically go super nihilist "well, death comes for us all. Come on then, let's get it over with."
Hunter
player, 66 posts
Sun 7 May 2023
at 21:21
  • msg #455

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

Question of the day:

You can use Create Water for all kinds of neat stuff, like filling a bathtub (for example).  I'd imagine you can chill it with Ray of Frost.  But the question is: how do you heat up the water?
Kegdrainer
player, 35 posts
Sun 7 May 2023
at 21:42
  • msg #456

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

Heat Metal or summon a small fire elemental should do the trick.
This message was last edited by the player at 21:43, Sun 07 May 2023.
Hunter
player, 67 posts
Sun 7 May 2023
at 22:14
  • msg #457

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

In reply to Kegdrainer (msg # 456):

Okay, let me clarify.   Zero-level spell.
BossMuro
player, 8 posts
Sun 7 May 2023
at 22:20
  • msg #458

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

Prestidigitation can "Chill, warm, or flavor one pound of nonliving material."  It's reasonable to assume that if you kept using it for a few minutes you could warm up a whole bathtub to a comfortable temperature.

Beyond that, your best bet is the spark cantrip: Cast it on a fireplace, then heat up the water the old fashioned way.
This message was last edited by the player at 22:22, Sun 07 May 2023.
vibetrippin
player, 16 posts
Wed 10 May 2023
at 19:05
  • msg #459

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

In PF2 the cantrip Produce Flame would work.
Zag24
player, 52 posts
Wed 10 May 2023
at 19:35
  • msg #460

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

I rather doubt it.  Produce Flame is a small, intense bit of heat, able to cause a serious burn on a person.  However, against a tub of water, it would produce a nice burst of steam but wouldn't do much to heat the water that didn't steam away.  It would certainly work, however, to light the flame on some wood below the tub.
vibetrippin
player, 17 posts
Wed 10 May 2023
at 19:57
  • msg #461

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

Produce flame does 1d4 + spellcasting modifier and is heightened at +1 by 1d4. It can be either ranged or melee. This means that a 3rd level character with a spellcasting mod of +4 is doing an average of 8hp/round of heating. Given that your average peasant has only a couple hp then you are dishing out more than a burst of steam and you can do it every round. Sure it might take a minute or so to heat up a tub of water but it is probably still faster than using the useless PF2 prestidigitation.
Prestidigitation does 1 lbs/round. Average tub has 30 gallons of water (per Google). Which is 249.87 pounds of water. 10 rounds per minute. You are looking at 25 minutes of heating water with our lovely Prestidigitation. At that rate the water you first heated is probably cold again.
praguepride
player, 385 posts
He's proud
of Prague
Sat 13 May 2023
at 12:57
  • msg #462

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

First I would ask for more details because if the idea is to do something simple like eat up a bowl of soup or even a nice warm bathtub, that's one thing. If you're trying to use it to create an elaborate steam trap or some steampunk engine or something, that's another.


Yes produce flames can kill a peasant. So can falling face first into a firepit. Doesn't mean that it can heat up water that fast. The thing to keep in mind about heating water is that it steams and evaporates and loses heat very quickly.

So time for some math. Human skin is "destroyed" at around 160 degrees farenheit but I also want produce flames to set paper and clothes on fire. Paper combusts at around 480 degrees and cloth at much lower so lets say that Produce flame heats up a spot to 500 degrees for a second.

It takes 0.24 BTU of heat to change the temperature of one pound of air by one degree F.

So to go from 60 degrees to 500 degrees = 105 BTUs


Plugging that information into this: https://bloglocation.com/art/w...or-time-energy-power

Means it would take 3 hours for a spell that can ignite paper and severely burn flesh to heat up 1 kg of water to boiling. If you assume say 5kg in a bathtub and even if you double or triple the btus, you're still standing around for hours trying to heat it up. Using that calculator at 315 BTUs you're at 5 hours for a bathtub.

On top of that trying to heat it up is going to be impaired by the fact that it isn't going to be constant heat. It is going to be a burst of heat and then a couple seconds of cooldown for the rest of the round and repeat.

Fireplaces and stoves operate in tens of thousands of BTUs mainly because of surface area. You're not heating up a singular point you're heating up an entire pot or fireplace worth of air.

Water is very slow to heat so you're better off getting a normal fire going. FYI boiling water is a big challenge for survival shows that can't build giant roaring fires. They will often have pots of water boiling/cooling all day and tending the firepit and water situation is basically a half-day affair for a camp of 2-3 people if they can't get a clean source of water. Once boiled the water takes almost an hour to cool back down to drinking I think....


Anyway this has been very crappy math brought to you by me, someone with no background in physics or math or anything :D
Hunter
player, 68 posts
Sat 13 May 2023
at 13:29
  • msg #463

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

In reply to praguepride (msg # 462):

Yeah, the whole thing feels like it's something that got overlooked.   I'm sure your PC would appreciate a warm bowl of soup when they're into day 5 up in the mountain peaks (or depths of a dungeon).
vibetrippin
player, 18 posts
Fri 26 May 2023
at 16:47
  • msg #464

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

Alright, I concede that Produce Flame is not the cantrip for the job. But I still hold that Prestidigitation, which is the spell that by it's nature should be the one to use, will still not do it. You are totally better off to use a bundle of torches to heat a tub of water than to try to do it with low level magic.

Which, if I were an actual magic user, would piss me off to no end.

A simple fix to this would be to let Prestidigitation be Heightened. An Elminster-type character should be able to wave a finger to warm his bath.
Buck.Davidson
player, 31 posts
Fri 26 May 2023
at 23:10
  • msg #465

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

Hunter:
I'd imagine you can chill it with Ray of Frost.

This might well be the first mistake....

Ignoring for a second real world physical laws (water is closer to freezing than boiling, yadda yadda) the assumption is that if we're talking about cantrips, the ability to cool down versus heat up from lukewarm should be largely proportionate to one another.
praguepride
player, 386 posts
He's proud
of Prague
Sat 27 May 2023
at 05:51
  • msg #466

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

quote:
An Elminster-type character should be able to wave a finger to warm his bath.


I feel like an Elminster type would have created a custom spell to do it.

Or as you said you use magic to conjure up logs to set down and then more magic to light them on fire.

I also think Heat Metal might do it although that is a 1st level spell.
Jobe00
player, 53 posts
Role-playing
Game Mechanic
Sat 27 May 2023
at 08:46
  • msg #467

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

Buck.Davidson:
Hunter:
I'd imagine you can chill it with Ray of Frost.

This might well be the first mistake....

Ignoring for a second real world physical laws (water is closer to freezing than boiling, yadda yadda) the assumption is that if we're talking about cantrips, the ability to cool down versus heat up from lukewarm should be largely proportionate to one another.

Assuming an average of 78F/25.6C as room temperature, it's not that much to make a nice hot bath of 122F/50C because you don't want the water to be boiling if you intend to be in it. The only issue would be the volume of water, 35 gallons/132.5 liters for roughly a large comfortable bath, so that means it won't be a cantrip. It would have to be a significantly higher spell which I would put Level 2 myself.
Zag24
player, 53 posts
Mon 29 May 2023
at 03:15
  • msg #468

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

I imagine that Ray of Frost would be more effective in cooling water than Produce Flame would be in heating it.  If fired at a tub of water, it would probably make a column of ice, which then would cool the whole thing, as opposed to Produce Flame which would make a bunch of steam which would float away and not do much to heat the standing water.
vibetrippin
player, 19 posts
Tue 30 May 2023
at 00:09
  • msg #469

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

Jobe00, that is a really warm room. My wife would love it!

Zag, why hit the water? Using cantrips you would be better warming the tub itself and letting that heat the water. Just like a wood fire underneath.

Really though, unless you have someone at the table who demands mathematical formula for magic remind your players that it is MAGIC it defies the laws of physics and it just works. I think as a GM it is one of those things that you hand wave. Prestidigitation is designed for this sort of thing. It is intended to be used as MAGIC Comfort. Clean my clothes, warm my coffee/soup/bath, create a crude model of the palace you are about to storm. etc.

The first player that starts to bitch about how much more energy it takes to heat a bowl of soup than it does to warm a bathtub needs to get hit with zone of wild magic for a session.

Then again, I could be over reacting because I'm sick. and tired.

I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired.

  -ozzy
praguepride
player, 387 posts
He's proud
of Prague
Thu 6 Jul 2023
at 00:36
  • msg #470

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

So the difference between heating and cooling is degrees.

A typical "room temperature" is going to be like 15 degrees celsius (easier to use for these purposes) so to "freeze" water you have to drop it 15 degrees but to boil it you have to raise it 85 degrees.

For things like lighting things on fire it is even higher. Paper ignites at around 200 degrees C.

The difference is that to catch paper on fire you just have to hit it once at high heat. To actually freeze/boil water you need to sustain it.


On a side note that could be some fun novelty magic items. The bath warming stone, a 1-shot pebble with some kind of custom spell that when dropped into a body of water will heat it up 15 degrees. Drop two and it ups to thirty degrees which will make it a nice hot soup. Then you hard cap it so more than 2 has no effect (to avoid someone saying I'M GOING TO BOIL THE OCEAN").
Tom_Clancy's_Ghost_Recon
player, 144 posts
Thu 13 Jul 2023
at 02:25
  • msg #471

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

What are those of us who like drow going to do with their removal? :(
LoreGuard
player, 38 posts
Thu 13 Jul 2023
at 14:28
  • msg #472

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

Well as long as it is just a Home game, they will either adapt to any implied changes to their cannon world as a result of the Paizo remaster, or they will simply continue to use the old compattable material that they already own (or were simply accessing from SRDs) and their world will largely remain the same as it was.  (with the potential exception that store-bought adventures won't out-of-the box seem to include them as adversaries any longer)

At one point, it was said they weren't getting rid of the from the world, just that they would no longer be being featured.  I have heard people talking about them being retconned, and perhaps that change was decided by the developers, but I'm not positive if that is the absolute case, or it was the interpretation of the statement that they would no longer be featured (used) in future Paizo products.

I probably won't decide what course I take until I see specifically more what they intend to do with respect to the pieces they had yet to fully reveal that they had originally intended to be occupied with Drow as the element in the story.  If those elements satisfy my worldbuilding I may plan to leave them behind myself (at minimum in Golarion) but if not I will find a way for them to exist in the hidden backgrounds. (like they were originally supposed to be, extremely rare, mostly old superstition that if heard of, people didn't have a firm belief that they actually existed)

So for me, that seems like a Completely viable alternative for honoring their original intent and design.

But lest go a step further.  The bigger question for me is how do I deal with a player who 'really' wants to play a drow.  Well honestly, I'd probably try to take some effort to find a way to work them in if that was what they wanted and it was for actual role-play purposes.

Being honest, early Drow, one of the reasons people wanted to play them was that they were 'cool-looking' elves on magic steroids, and some wanted the excuse to have evil tendencies.

Playing Second edition, tradition is now that you don't get super-powers and unbalanced abilities by way of their ancestry any longer, unless you are already a level that that power you got is not really what you would consider a superpower any longer.  If it seems the player is just trying to 'game' the game to be more powerful, they will find my process isn't likely to quickly give them what they want, and I'll probably pick up what they are wanting is being unbalanced.  If that is the case, I think it would take us down the road of needing to talk to the players to determine if 2nd edition pathfinder is the game to be playing with that group of players, or if that particular group of players want to be playing together.

For the most part, it seems like most of the rules in the Remaster do not do much to leave making conversions seem particularly difficult.  The only piece so far I have wondering about lies more in the removal of spell schools and how magical aura's are supposed to be read after the remaster.  So I don't know that there would be much of an issue using a legacy race(ancestry), or any legacy OGR monster stat blocks and such if I wanted to for a story.

Ok, it sounds like some spells have gotten renamed and/or merged, so one difficulty might be matching a spell in an OGL stat block to the new remastered version.  This could affect monster stat blocks, things like legacy deities/domains, bloodlines, feats, etc.  I'm guessing they will come out with a conversion document using the OGL that will help people identify the names of such things, and what they lead to.

At least that is my guess of what we will see.
Tom_Clancy's_Ghost_Recon
player, 145 posts
Thu 13 Jul 2023
at 15:51
  • msg #473

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

Word. I was curious how other people did it. For me, I literally just chose a Cave Elf, and then I took a couple of the elven abilities, and voila. Cosmetically I have a drow. It's very easy to have a DM who knows what they are doing wand wave in a society that functions identically to "typical" drow, so even though they are not a thing, we made them a thing and it was pretty easy to do.

I'm in a P2 game on foundry and we are about to ding 6. I have a CN (Liberator) Champion of Calistria. I'm positive I have things all jacked up, because I am dex based and use a Scorpion whip (looking at the Asp Sword). I have a variety of weapons tho. My ranged attack is a returning javelin. I found a pick axe in an adventure that I use to great effect against larger targets. The idea that a drow wench equips what is essentially a miner's tool and goes to town with it amuses me. So despite there being better options, I'm keeping it.
Hunter
player, 69 posts
Thu 13 Jul 2023
at 21:29
  • msg #474

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

I suspect that it's a combination of the "cool factor" and "something different", is why many people eventually turn to playing drow.   Admittedly, the only drow that I've ever played have been paladin; so I'm kinda biased there a bit.  ^_^
Jobe00
player, 54 posts
Role-playing
Game Mechanic
Sat 15 Jul 2023
at 08:30
  • msg #475

Re: [RULES] Ask the DMs

Tom_Clancy's_Ghost_Recon:
What are those of us who like drow going to do with their removal? :(

Seeing as I will continue to use PF1, and if I run games, I set them in the Forgotten Realms in the 1370s or earlier, I just ignore it.
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