OOC Consultation.   Posted by DM.Group: 0
DM
 GM, 2945 posts
 Mad, bad and slightly sad
Sat 6 Apr 2019
at 10:26
Re: OOC Consultation
OK.  I have started a post in the House Rules thread that covers crafting.  It is based on my earlier list, but is expanded to address some points that you have made.

Just because it is in that thread, doesn't mean those rules are fully decided and set in stone.  I am happy to keep taking constructive suggestions in this thread.
Adoven
 Player, 442 posts
 HP 34 AC 18 F+2 R+8 W+2
 Rogue / Bard
Sat 6 Apr 2019
at 14:14
Re: OOC Consultation
Don't forget that Master Craftsmen often have apprentices, who only need hit a DC of 10 to Aid Another. I don't know if there is a limit to how many +2s you can benefit from.
DM
 GM, 2946 posts
 Mad, bad and slightly sad
Sat 6 Apr 2019
at 14:17
Re: OOC Consultation
I haven't forgotten that :)  It will be added, but restricted to one Entourage-Assistant :)  The multipliers  can get very large very fast :)
Andalon de Lebeda
 Player, 781 posts
 Cleric of Abadar
Sat 6 Apr 2019
at 14:28
Re: OOC Consultation
So, the most highly skilled armourer available would take about 6 months to make a create a masterwork suit of full plate armour (1650gp) on his own, or 2 or 3 months with a small team of apprentices and journeymen helping him.

"Vambraces again sir? Yes, sir, I know I am good at vambraces but couldn't I do pauldrons this time sir?"

That sounds about right. I'm glad I got my order in with Rikka before winter. :o)
Adoven
 Player, 443 posts
 HP 34 AC 18 F+2 R+8 W+2
 Rogue / Bard
Sat 6 Apr 2019
at 14:40
Re: OOC Consultation
And if he had the services of a wizard, it works out even faster. Guidance orison and Crafter's Fortune stack benefits I believe.
DM
 GM, 2947 posts
 Mad, bad and slightly sad
Sat 6 Apr 2019
at 14:41
Re: OOC Consultation
One of the reasons I am tying crafting down :)
Stanislav Wolkov
 player, 108 posts
Sat 6 Apr 2019
at 16:50
Re: OOC Consultation
quote:
Guidance orison

I do not believe that can be used for Crafting as it only lasts for a minute and a Crafting check is taken once a week (or per day)

quote:
DC of 10 to Aid Another.

Yes that can be very useful.

quote:
If you ‘take 10’ when you make the roll, you can increase the DC of the task to (Skill + 10) –BUT only if you are taking 10

This is unclear to me. To actually make something you need to make the Crafting check, if you are bumping something by +10 DC a lot of times you are putting it about your Crafting skill +10. Unless you are making something very simple with starting DC 5 lets say, its never going to work. In the example I used, I rolled like an 18 to make the item with a DC 25. If I am taking a 10, I would never be able to accelerate.

Am I seeing it wrong?
DM
 GM, 2949 posts
 Mad, bad and slightly sad
Sat 6 Apr 2019
at 18:54
Re: OOC Consultation
As per our PM  conversation -  I am allowing you to add smaller increments for accelerated Crafting, rather than the +10 that the rules state.

So you could add 4 to the DC,  or 5  or even 9 - to get the DC up to (10 + Skill Modifier) - but only when you Take Ten on a crafting roll.  That means it is an auto-success, but means you can craft a bit faster.  The knock on effect of that is that you can craft more material in the time you have available.
Stanislav Wolkov
 player, 109 posts
Sat 6 Apr 2019
at 19:02
Re: OOC Consultation
Got it. Thank you.
DM
 GM, 3090 posts
Tue 2 Jul 2019
at 06:21
Re: OOC Consultation
Work Pressure is easing up -  mainly because D-Day has passed, I handed my resignation in, and have been working a 4 day week recently (3 days for my employer and 1 day looking for new work, this Thursday is my final day). That means I have some time to get back to the rules discussions.  I think I have the Build Point and Merchant Rules sorted out now, and they are both linked from ...

http://rp.baileymail.net/doku....paign_systems2:start

Comments and thoughts welcome on both.

But now I can turn my attention back to Time and Kingdom Turns and Crafting.  Already I have spotted a  'make winter a kingdom round'  comment that I hadn't really considered properly.

Just a heads up - Time is a real problem in this game because I run more than 1 group.

All three groups left Tusk at about the same time - but all three groups have spent different amounts of time out adventuring - For one group, some travel elements have been hand-waved through and three or four days have passed in a single GM post.  Another group is currently in combat (and had been for a few GM posts) even though I use dangerous monsters that could kill a PC in a couple of rounds.  There are already days of difference between the two groups -  and I suspect it could get worse.

At various times in this AP there is the broad instruction to 'just let the years pass until ....'  But there are other times when I am supposed to conclude a three level adventure in a couple of weeks of game time.  And you guys are currently working across three different books of a six book AP series ...

Whatever solution I come up with, isn't going to be pretty, or universally loved  :)
Cass Mordane
 Player, 407 posts
 Bard, Sword Scion
 Sometime Diplomat
Tue 2 Jul 2019
at 07:35
Re: OOC Consultation
Maybe we can talk about a time travel spell. Tie things together nicely, add an epic spin on Kingmaker no one else has tried!
~ Percy Arndell
 NPC p, 416 posts
 Gentleman and Poet
 "Oh. Hello."
Fri 5 Jul 2019
at 06:19
Re: OOC Consultation
Yes, you're not running one game ... you're running three separate games, all intermeshed and, as you've noted, having to juggle disparate timelines as well.  The gods alone know how that'll work when/if any one of those parties splits up too, as parties as known to do.   So the workload is substantially more than if you were running three games in separate universes.  Yup, you must be mad ! <grrrins>

Which is my way of saying that if there are no good solutions, pick one that minimises or alleviates your GM workload - might as well make it easier on yourself.
DM
 GM, 3091 posts
Fri 5 Jul 2019
at 06:32
Re: OOC Consultation
In reply to ~ Percy Arndell (msg # 77):

With hindsight -  I think I should probably have hand-waved a year through at level 3 and every other level afterwards.  That would resolve the 'leave things for a few years'  issue.  :)

I might have a look at applying that retrospectively.
~ Percy Arndell
 NPC p, 417 posts
 Gentleman and Poet
 "Oh. Hello."
Fri 5 Jul 2019
at 08:32
Re: OOC Consultation
More thoughts on balancing timelines between groups ...

My preferred solution would be to simply balance the number of "encounters" for each group.  One group might meet an NPC on the road, fight some bandits and finally make their way to a simple shrine where matters are resolved.  Another group might be in that three level dungeon ... but just pick the key encounter areas and wave through the rest of it as "you wander darkened corridors, avoiding the creatures that lurk therein".   Nothing is ever wasted - there might be an interesting area that you can pull out and use elsewhere in a different context and as a standalone encounter for another time.
DM
 GM, 3092 posts
Fri 5 Jul 2019
at 09:45
Re: OOC Consultation
ATM, I am considering a couple of different models ...

  1. If I make the Kingdom rounds into Fuzzy Threads, we could do it all in the background -  after all the Kingdom Builders have Entourages and managers to run things on their behalf.

  2. Alternately, I could separate the three groups a bit more, run them on more independent time lines,  with separate levelling and  Kingdom Rounds.


Both have benefits and drawbacks.  Ironically, this might have been easier if I wasn't using  Group levelling, rather than Level by XP.  However, the thought of doing the XP admin for (approx) 15 characters  and overview XP for all the NPCs is depressing!
~ Percy Arndell
 NPC p, 418 posts
 Gentleman and Poet
 "Oh. Hello."
Fri 5 Jul 2019
at 12:22
Re: OOC Consultation
H'mm ... may or may not be a problem, depending on whether people are that fussed about levelling.  Is it important that all characters maintain absolute parity in levels (bearing in mind that those players who have been playing in the game longer probably have higher level characters than those who joined more recently) or are most/all happy to progress as their story unfolds ?  Personally I'm happy to play my character and don't worry so much what their current level is (though it's always nice to level up !).

I have enjoyed switching between different groups - making new friends, meeting old ones again, and that wouldn't work under the second model, whereas the first model has the drawback that those who want their character in the thick of town politics would miss out if that's delegated to their entourage.

As you said, no easy solutions.  <grins>

Now (thinking out loud) if we had three groups based loosely around three population centres (Tusk Town, Ringbridge and Olegs) then they could adventure and politic independently ... and whenever you choose to reorder groups then it's "six months later you find yourself in".  Those whose characters (not just their entourage) are invested in a particular place could be constants there, with the characters of those players who like me prefer to chop and change moving between places - hopefully allows for both approaches ?   Should allow for group levelling too, to keep the GM's lot easier.  :>
DM
 GM, 3096 posts
Sat 6 Jul 2019
at 19:43
Re: OOC Consultation
I have been thinking about a few issues I have with managing the game.  Things work as they are, but they aren’t as straight forward or as equitable as I would like them to be.  This is the first time I have run a multi-party game -  so I am learning as I go along.  And this game has lots of ways of making life complicated for me.

The character level spread between the parties, quite often means that I am working to integrate information from more than one source.  Today I used information from 4 of the 6 books in the Adventure Path – as well as other game specific sources.  That causes a bit of a timing issue for me.as events in the different books are supposed to move at different speeds. – and there are supposed to be gaps between the events.  I can wing that, compress gaps, fudge a few things -  but  only so far.  And it also makes it more difficult to manage the politics in the wider world.   (I understand that I might be the only one who is concerned about achieving a reasonable level of time and political continuity -  but, hey-ho, IMO it gives the world a better and more realistic feel)

To resolve this I intend to make time even more abstract, and go to a variant of a system that was widely used on NWN Servers.  Characters there measured their time and level in Seasons -  rather than anything else.  I am going to adapt this so that there is one adventuring turn, and one Kingdom/down-time turn per calendar year  (my interpretation of ‘season’).  By judicious use of Fuzzy Time threads for the kingdom side of the game, I can push things along as a sensible speed for the game world.  It might mean, in some cases, that a players from a group might have to run one of their entourage characters during a down-time RP session rather than their main character -  but at least they will be represented.

At the same time, I intend to change the way that I award experience points.  At the moment, I ‘award’ the right number of experience points to allow each character to go up a level at the end of each Adventuring Turn and nothing during the Kingdom Turn.  This means every one advances at the same speed, and there is no chance to catch up to the players who were here earlier.  Now I am going to start giving experience in a number of different blocks.
  • Adventure XP – Based on CR of Monsters / Traps / Situations etc.
  • Kingdom Round XP – which will be based around the BPs you generate / control.  That means it has some chance or remaining relevant at a number of different levels.
  • Down Time XP – which will reward people who use the down time system to craft or use their profession or perform skills.
  • Story Line XP – This, as always, is a bit arbitrary.  However, there could be two or three different award possibilities across an Adventure/Kingdom turn pair.
  • RP XP – If I particularly like a bit of RP -  I will hand out an XP award.  Amount (etc) is purely arbitrary.



You will have the opportunity to level up at the end of the Adventure Turn and at the end of  the Kingdom Turn -  so two opportunities per ‘year’.   This should give lower level characters an opportunity to catch up to the higher level characters - especially if you work all aspects of the game. :}

It has a second advantage for me, in that it gives me a nice system for managing XP awards for stay-at-home characters, Characters who don't post and NPCs.
Marik
 Player, 228 posts
Sat 6 Jul 2019
at 19:58
Re: OOC Consultation
Will this affect entourage advancement at all, or will they still just advance when the main PC advances?
DM
 GM, 3097 posts
Sat 6 Jul 2019
at 20:08
Re: OOC Consultation
Entourages stay the same  :)  I am not looking forward to calculating this for the PCs and main  NPCs ......  let alone any other characters
Adoven
 Player, 486 posts
 HP 34 AC 18 F+2 R+8 W+2
 Rogue / Bard
Sun 7 Jul 2019
at 03:51
Re: OOC Consultation
Sounds like you're setting yourself up with even more complications. But it does cut back on how often you will need to wrestle with them.
DM
 GM, 3098 posts
Sun 7 Jul 2019
at 05:54
Re: OOC Consultation
In reply to Adoven (msg # 85):

It may  not be as bad  as you think - or I first thought :)

Spreadsheets are my friend.  And I am going to work in big handfuls.  The only thing that really needs calculating is the  adventuring XP - and a practice run on your current Varnhold  section  only took about 15 minutes, once I had done the groundwork.    All the rest are either arbitrary values or easily calculated from information I work out already.

I'll tweak the Story Line awards to make sure that we get to a base position of one level advancement per 'season/year' - for the highest level members of each party.

Characters whose players post and take a fairly active part in the game -  will progress a level every 'season' as we have been doing so far.

Those who participate enthusiastically in the various aspects of the game, and/or travel with higher level characters will get more XP and should level slightly faster.

Those who finish up along for the ride (or with me running them)  will get Less XP,, won't advance quite so fast and will lose levels compared to their peers.  They will slip down the pecking order -  but still be playable if their player decides to act on their behalf.
Cass Mordane
 Player, 408 posts
 Bard, Sword Scion
 Sometime Diplomat
Sun 7 Jul 2019
at 06:01
Re: OOC Consultation
So long as you are having fun and not headaches with the game.

What type of additional RP are you interested in seeing outside of the adventures and the kingdom building meetings?
DM
 GM, 3100 posts
Sun 7 Jul 2019
at 06:34
Re: OOC Consultation
Cass Mordane:
What type of additional RP are you interested in seeing outside of the adventures and the kingdom building meetings?


All sorts :)  here are some examples -  but  it is certainly not an exhaustive list of character driven RP I have enjoyed in this game.
  • I liked Andalon's reaction  to being asked to donate to the Three Ladies School - It's a loan, I want it back next round -  was exactly right for a cleric of Abadar.
  • I enjoyed the conversations between Alisa, Dara and Domitius in the  Library of Iomedae.
  • I liked it when the bards took  the opportunity to perform on-stage at the Dragon's Den.  I would also enjoy watching Kendrick's comedy juggling act ...
  • Quinn / El and their adventuring relationship.  Mind you that was a really difficult one to pull off and circumstances got in the way of its development.
  • Going further back - I enjoyed the hesitant relationship between Aris'ta and Rook, and I enjoyed the more calculated relationship between Cyrus and Valoria.  Or Pipre's 'ownership' of the bathing pool at Olegs.
  • Marik and Mariam's relationship was starting to bear fruit - but unfortunately it looks like Mariam's player has left us  :(  Still, I am sure one of the other 'ladies' (or gentlemen) will soon spot his potential as a life partner ....


Anything that bring out your character's personality.  Posting partners are often a good way of doing that, although it doesn't have to be just one other character or  a  romantic relationship -  look at the way Wyn, Berta and Gedd banter ...
DM
 GM, 3103 posts
Sun 7 Jul 2019
at 15:04
Re: OOC Consultation
I have updated the first post of the House Rules thread with the rationale behind the time changes ...

link to a message in this game

... although I am still open to comments.
DM
 GM, 3104 posts
Mon 8 Jul 2019
at 08:46
Re: OOC Consultation
And I have just added the XP Award overview to the House Rules thread.