Don't know if it helps but I did spot this

Adoven - From the far north, up by the lake of mists and veils where he was originally a sailor. Co-owner of V&A shipping.

1. Three Kingdom turns, two adventuring turns and one 'Winter' turn  per calendar year.
   - Are you proposing Kingdom, Adv., Kingdom, Adv., Kingdom, Winter? What can be accomplished in Winter? Anything other than RP/background management of our stuff?
   
2. Each Kingdom Turn will have 20 days free in which you can Craft or pursue Professional interests.   The rest of the time will be taken up running Businesses, Civic Duties and carrying out background tasks for Henry.
   - So 60 days of crafting per calendar year. Totally fine at our levels. If we ever get to high level play and we wanted to craft anything in excess of 60,000 gp value we'd either have to 1) step down from our kingdom duties, 2) not adventure, or 3) Spend multiple years crafting a single item?
    - Tackle that problem when we get there? ^.^
   
3. However, there will be restrictions on levels of and types of components available to you.
   
4. You will be allowed to sell items to other PCs (for GPs not BPs) via an 'exchange' -  which will take a percentage of the sale price.
   - Fixed % or variable on each sale?
   
5. There will also be restrictions and benefits related to the elements of the kingdom Building rules.
   - So those involved in crafting will be limited in some way on the Kingdom Building side?
   
6. There will be a thread (or maybe more than one) where you will be required to post (In Private Lines) the calculations that you have used in your Crafting / professional work
   - This totally makes sense to keep everything straight for you!

I am assuming this is Magic Item crafting and does not cover Craft skills?

Pretty sure it's both since DM mentioned Craft & Professional interests

In reply to Zelona (msg # 55):

That would make Crafting pretty much useless.

If I take 10s on making DC15 items with my +12 Crafting I would be able to make 282.85 gps worth of items per year.

(10+12) x 15 / 7 * 60 / 10 = 282.85

DM - if you can up it to 21 days/KR that might be better so it's 3 weeks evenly for the craft mechanic?

@Stanislav - I don't know what your craft skill is in, so it's hard for me to say. If you're crafting a Masterwork chain shirt, you can do 2 of those in 8 weeks of crafting (DC 14 for the shirt, 100 gp, DC 20 for the MW, 150 gp). Cost to produce = 83.34 gp, sale price 250 = 166.67 gp per x2 = 333.33 gp in a year, plus whatever you earn adventuring.

For normal crafting that is a really good #. As your skill goes higher you'll be able to craft faster. Not sure what level you are, but at +14 Craft you'll be able to complete 3 sets in the 3 weeks of downtime.

Right now you could craft 1 set of MW Chain in 7 weeks. at +14 mod you could do 1 set in 5 weeks. (See my new post below for ideas on how to improve that).

That is money you'll probably always be able to make, whereas magical crafters are only going to be allowed to sell to other PC's, subject to a bunch of limits above. I don't think you're going to be earning a ton less than magical crafters really.

Plus - things that we're really going to be crafting as items to sell to other PC's have a huge upfront cost. A suit of MW chain shirt only costs you 83 gp. A +1 RoP costs 1,000 gp in raw materials. Much harder to come by, especially if our DM sets value ceilings based on town size as he's proposing above and limits component availability.

I'll be surprise if magical crafters end up being able to craft more than 2 or 3 items in a kingdom year in practice with how much just the materials cost. To make a 6,000 gp ring, I'll need to come up with 3,000 gp of raw materials. To make a 40,000 gp staff... you guessed it, 20,000 gp of raw materials. I'm not going to just be able to buy that stuff off the shelf either probably, it's going to involve traveling to Restov or somewhere else then traveling back to craft, etc.

Armorsmiths are goin to be able to use the Iron out of our own Iron mine near Tusk on the other hand.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:26, Fri 05 Apr 2019.

I don't know, that still looks less than impressive to me. Sure, if you pump the skill as much as you can, you can get something out of it. Something worth putting all those skill points in? Hell no.

I say, let's double mundane crafting speed. Pathfinder economy already makes no god damn sense, so why not.

DM could allow the Unchained version of crafting for mundane crafts. I think it mimics doubling the speed.

At 5 Ranks you double your craft check before multiplying by DC. If you roll a 1 on the craft check, that means you still beat a 25 DC (so no failure) and you're crafting a suit of MW chainmail in 2 weeks if you rolled a 20 on any of those checks.

At +14 modifier an armorer could craft the chain shirt portion in 1 week (accelerated crafting +10 to DC), and the MW portion in 1.5 weeks.

I think my math in the post above might have been off... I'm going to edit the post above.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:28, Fri 05 Apr 2019.

Or we can leave Crafting as is and not limit it to 60 days a year.

Stas - you can craft 365 days a year, and not go adventuring, nor get involved in the Kingdom side of the game if you prefer.

Or you could make a positive suggestion that recognizes the games overarching story-arc of Kingdom building.

But 'I want RAW' just isn't going to happen, as we discussed last time you were playing in the game.

I think you're looking at this a little wrong. Crafting is limited to 60 days assuming you want to play the game as a PC getting involved with everything the game has to offer.

From what our DM has presented, it looks to me like he's basically broken things down into 2 month increments; 3 kingdom turns, 2 adventuring turns, 1 "winter" turn equals 6 turns.

So, the assumption is you can't craft while adventuring, so those 4 months are lost.

The 20 days available per kingdom turn assume that you are involved in the various aspects of kingdom building, whether that be managing your own holdings, serving in an important position (like Cass as mayor of Tusk) or other similar activities.

I'm honestly not sure what the reasoning is for not allowing crafting in winter, I'd probably treat it exactly like a kingdom building turn.


So, I would say, if you wanted your character to be a hermit, who does nothing of value for the community, and never adventures, you should absolutely be able to use every day for crafting. But I feel like that would be an extremely boring game to play.

Now, I guess you could make the argument that your character wants nothing to do with running a business, or building a castle, and just want to use all of the kingdom building time for crafting. I'd be okay with that as an option assuming you forfeit the BP Henry has offered and just not get involved in that part of the game.

If the character is adventuring then he is not Crafting. If he is busy doing other things then is not crafting. That is all I am saying.

We are actually saying the same thing, but I am saying it with out specific limitations.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:19, Fri 05 Apr 2019.

The problem we have, is that time is Fuzzy, Fudged and also taken up with other parts of the game - and none of us can actually define what time that takes up and what time is available.

Worse, this style of game needs to run over years of game time - which leaves way more down time than a standard game.  Normally, your party would get hacked off and bored enough to insist you went out adventuring again.  I manage it with Kingdom stuff.

That is the nature of this game, and about the only way I can run three (sometimes four) groups at the same time to keep you all in some sort of Sync, create space for some RP threads, and find enough Real-Life time for me to do the housekeeping and keep the game running.

It would be much more straight forward if I ran a game with one group of players and no Kingdom or large scale RP activity.  However, I don't :)

I have been doing some calculations using the same formula that Stas used – and the results highlight some of the anomalies of the Crafting rules.
While Stas can make  283gp of DC15 items.  He can make  377gp worth of DC20 items (or DC10 using accelerated crafting).  If he were to take a chance on DC15 items – and use accelerated crafting to increase the DC to 25, he could make 471gp worth of items.  So the amount of stuff you can make while crafting within the  20 day limit – varies quite significantly.

Stas has used a 7 day week -  I had intended for the calculation to work over a 6 day week, which makes for 10 weeks (or a fifth of the year) given over to crafting.  That puts values up  to DC15=330gp, DC20-440gp & DC25=550gp.

Ironically, Stas has about the same skill levels as a L3 Master Craftsman Expert using a MW tools.., That is the senior craftsmen in the Mastercraft Workshops available Under the Kingdom Rules.  So, using the 6 day wee, that master-craftsman, who works all year just crafting, makes can make 2112 gp worth of gear in a  year.  A  very top Craftsman (who can make dc25 and can likely be found in an Exotic Artisan) can  make 3000gp worth of items a year.  Their journeyman assistants can make 1080gp worth of items in  a year.

However, as I said the rules are anomalous and inconsistent.  I find it somewhat strange that a skilled worker can make More (by value) DC15 items faster than they can make the easier DC 10 items.  Or at least until they  are so good they can add a +10 to the DC to make things faster.

So I am prepared to make a change to the Accelerated Crafting rule.  If you ‘take 10’ when you make the roll, you can increase the DC of the task to (Skill + 10) –BUT only if you are taking 10 :)

That would mean that a standard craftsman can make 22.5 gp of items a week.  A masterCraftsman (and Stas at present) can make 48.4  worth of items a week.  And a top Craftsman can make 62.5gp of items per week.

OK.  I have started a post in the House Rules thread that covers crafting.  It is based on my earlier list, but is expanded to address some points that you have made.

Just because it is in that thread, doesn't mean those rules are fully decided and set in stone.  I am happy to keep taking constructive suggestions in this thread.

Don't forget that Master Craftsmen often have apprentices, who only need hit a DC of 10 to Aid Another. I don't know if there is a limit to how many +2s you can benefit from.

I haven't forgotten that :)  It will be added, but restricted to one Entourage-Assistant :)  The multipliers  can get very large very fast :)

So, the most highly skilled armourer available would take about 6 months to make a create a masterwork suit of full plate armour (1650gp) on his own, or 2 or 3 months with a small team of apprentices and journeymen helping him.

"Vambraces again sir? Yes, sir, I know I am good at vambraces but couldn't I do pauldrons this time sir?"

That sounds about right. I'm glad I got my order in with Rikka before winter. :o)

And if he had the services of a wizard, it works out even faster. Guidance orison and Crafter's Fortune stack benefits I believe.

One of the reasons I am tying crafting down :)

I do not believe that can be used for Crafting as it only lasts for a minute and a Crafting check is taken once a week (or per day)


Yes that can be very useful.


This is unclear to me. To actually make something you need to make the Crafting check, if you are bumping something by +10 DC a lot of times you are putting it about your Crafting skill +10. Unless you are making something very simple with starting DC 5 lets say, its never going to work. In the example I used, I rolled like an 18 to make the item with a DC 25. If I am taking a 10, I would never be able to accelerate.

Am I seeing it wrong?

As per our PM  conversation -  I am allowing you to add smaller increments for accelerated Crafting, rather than the +10 that the rules state.

So you could add 4 to the DC,  or 5  or even 9 - to get the DC up to (10 + Skill Modifier) - but only when you Take Ten on a crafting roll.  That means it is an auto-success, but means you can craft a bit faster.  The knock on effect of that is that you can craft more material in the time you have available.

Got it. Thank you.

Work Pressure is easing up -  mainly because D-Day has passed, I handed my resignation in, and have been working a 4 day week recently (3 days for my employer and 1 day looking for new work, this Thursday is my final day). That means I have some time to get back to the rules discussions.  I think I have the Build Point and Merchant Rules sorted out now, and they are both linked from ...

http://rp.baileymail.net/doku....paign_systems2:start

Comments and thoughts welcome on both.

But now I can turn my attention back to Time and Kingdom Turns and Crafting.  Already I have spotted a  'make winter a kingdom round'  comment that I hadn't really considered properly.

Just a heads up - Time is a real problem in this game because I run more than 1 group.

All three groups left Tusk at about the same time - but all three groups have spent different amounts of time out adventuring - For one group, some travel elements have been hand-waved through and three or four days have passed in a single GM post.  Another group is currently in combat (and had been for a few GM posts) even though I use dangerous monsters that could kill a PC in a couple of rounds.  There are already days of difference between the two groups -  and I suspect it could get worse.

At various times in this AP there is the broad instruction to 'just let the years pass until ....'  But there are other times when I am supposed to conclude a three level adventure in a couple of weeks of game time.  And you guys are currently working across three different books of a six book AP series ...

Whatever solution I come up with, isn't going to be pretty, or universally loved  :)

Maybe we can talk about a time travel spell. Tie things together nicely, add an epic spin on Kingmaker no one else has tried!