FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council.   Posted by _ Brother Barthomew.Group: 0
_ Brother Barthomew
 NPC e, 33 posts
 NPC - Henry's Chaplain
 Priest of Pharasma
Thu 11 Jun 2020
at 18:15
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
"I believe that the only religious establishment with people under arms is the House of Iomedae in Tusk, who fall under the command of Lord Borric and Lady Mariam."  Brother Bart offers, naming the Chief Magistrate of Midmarch.  "And I am sure that Borric would take whatever course of action he felt appropriate."
Kendrick Winters
 player, 462 posts
 Marshal-Dominus
 Knight Paladin of Iomedae
Thu 11 Jun 2020
at 18:23
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
"The churches can offer other support besides people under arms." Kendrick added, "The men will need priest that can cure wounds and many other things that are supportive in nature. Don't forget about logistics. Wars are won by the speed of supplies, not only the sword that swings it."
~Aranel Romanese
 NPC e, 3 posts
Fri 12 Jun 2020
at 08:24
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
"I am sure we are all doing and will keep doing everything we can do to help. But I cannot fail to notice that only obligations mentioned so far were of decidedly military nature. That is understandable if we are talking about the church of Iomedae, but many faiths are far less martially inclined than that of the Inheritor. And yet I'd like to think we are all already making a valuable contribution to the realm."

Aranel looks over the assembled Council.

"And if not, if our contribution is to be judged chiefly by our military usefulness, then this Council might wish to reconsider allowing followers of the Pirate Queen to join us after all. I am sure her pirates would be far more useful to our military than my teachers could ever be."
_ Brother Barthomew
 NPC e, 34 posts
 NPC - Henry's Chaplain
 Priest of Pharasma
Fri 12 Jun 2020
at 08:31
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
"Which brings us back to the original question of Gyronna, Hanspur and Besmara".
Andalon de Lebeda
 Player, 928 posts
 Bishop at Cathedral of
 Abadar in Tusk City
Fri 12 Jun 2020
at 13:01
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
"I believe I stated my opinion on those three earlier, Brother," Andalon responded. "I don't believe there was any real disagreement on the basic principles.

"The worship of all evil deities should be banned throughout Midmarch, with anyone caught actively worshipping an evil deity to be exiled from Midmarch. Gyronna is just one of the evil deities that would apply to.

"Hanspur is not truly evil but worship of Hanspur is banned in most civilised lands because one of his rituals requires his worshipers to drown someone in the river. But politics is an equally important reason to ban the worship of Hanspur. His worship primarily in the River Kingdoms means that any presence of his church in Midmarch is likely to be a haven for agents of the River Kingdoms, enemies of Midmarch. Therefore my understanding is that the worship of Hanspur has been banned by the Midmarch Council and I would certainly not wish to overturn that decision.

"Besmara is not truly evil either and there has not been any political reason to ban her worship in Midmarch yet. Piracy is a crime and will be punished as such, but worship of Besmara is not. I would not vote in favour of any proposal to build a place of worship to the goddess of Piracy, Strife and Sea Monsters in any settlement in Midmarch, but I would not seek to ban the worship of Besmara outright in Midmarch.

"Does anyone disagree?"

~Brother Thaddeus Riverson
 NPCe, 4 posts
 Acolyte of Iomedae
 Domitius Companion
Fri 12 Jun 2020
at 13:16
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
Rising once more to speak Brother Thaddeus clears his throat "Your Grace, if we are outlawing evil worship then should we not also ban the worship of chaos and entropy?  Are they not more likely to transgress the law than say a devotee of Asmodeus?  Dieties like Besmara, Gorum, Calistria, Desna, Rovagug and Lamashtu are all inimical to the rule of Law."
Ethankos
 player, 154 posts
 Cleric of Pharasma
 All stories end in death
Fri 12 Jun 2020
at 13:30
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
"That one's a troublemaker," Ethankos vouchsafes to Andalon, not quietly and with a grin and a wave of apology to Brother Thaddeus should he take offense at the jest.

"Do any of those faiths espouse disobeying the laws of the land ?" the priest asks.  "I fear I may not have been as attentive as I should have been to much more than the broader aims of gods other than my own."

"Perhaps we should have thought to order meals brought in - this discussion may take a while." the large man tells the Bishop of Abadar as he settles into his chair once more.  "I just hope none here intend to argue the virtues of the undead !"
_ Brother Barthomew
 NPC e, 35 posts
 NPC - Henry's Chaplain
 Priest of Pharasma
Fri 12 Jun 2020
at 14:13
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
Bart shudders at the thought.
Andalon de Lebeda
 Player, 929 posts
 Bishop at Cathedral of
 Abadar in Tusk City
Fri 12 Jun 2020
at 15:18
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
"Whilst I do have some sympathy with your point of view, Brother Thaddeus, the Midmarch Religious Council covers quite a range of theological points of view. I think we are all agreed that we cannot allow the worship of evil deities but I am equally sure that we will never reach agreement on the banning of chaotic deities as well.

"However, I do agree that some faiths are more disruptive than we would wish and probably should not be permitted to establish places of worship in our settlements.

"Rovagug and Lamashtu are utterly evil and therefore would be banned outright.

"Gorum is the god of strength, battle and weapons, attracting worshippers among soldiers, mercenaries, brigands, bloodthirsty savages, half-orcs and barbarians. He is in a similar position to Besmara, as far as I can see. This Council is not likely to agree to ban his worship, regardless of the personal opinions of lawful clerics like you and I. His worshippers will be judged for their actions, not their faith, but I would not wish to see a temple of Gorum built in Tusk.

"Neither would I wish to see a temple of Calistria - the goddess of Trickery, Lust and Revenge - but again I do not expect this Council to ban her worship entirely.

"Desna is the goddess of Dreams, Luck, Stars and Travelers. She would be one of the most benevolent of the chaotic deities and I would expect there is no chance this Council would agree to ban her worship.

"As for Asmodeus, however much some of us might grudgingly respect the aspect of him that is the Prince of Law, there is no way I would wish his harsh and brutal interpretation of the law to hold sway anywhere in Midmarch."

~Aranel Romanese
 NPC e, 4 posts
Fri 12 Jun 2020
at 18:19
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
The elderly woman gives the Council her best stern teacher look.

"Let us not presume authority we do not have here. Lord Henry has asked our opinion on three specific faiths, not to rule on every religion we might have theological differences with. Should he require our opinion on another faith, he can always ask us. And let us not get bogged down in metaphysical arguments either, but simply look at the actions of the followers of these faiths."

"Gyronna's cults spread hate, strife and ultimately destruction wherever they appear. They gleefully take credit for the destructions of the city of Heibarr, a city that was once not unlike Tusk, and not very far from here either. To tolerate Gyronna would be to invite the same fate, and as such  any worship of her should be prohibited and its cults rooted out."

"The other two are a lesser problem in comparison. Hanspur has ritual murder as one of its rites, and Besmara has piracy at the heart of its creed. Even if we could turns the attention of her followers against foreign targets, I doubt that would make us particularly popular among our neighbors. As such, my opinion is that building places of worship or openly preaching either of these two should be proscribed."

"But, I would not go so far as to forbid private worship of Hanspur or Besmara. Should their followers start drowning folks, or engaging in piracy or banditry, they should be dealt with as any other law breaker. But their worship alone I feel should not be cause enough for prosecution. If we ultimately find this to be insufficient, we can always proscribe their worship as well."

DM
 GM, 3734 posts
Fri 12 Jun 2020
at 18:29
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
"And the Lady Aranel brings us back to our purpose.  We have had a wide-ranging discussion  on the merits of various solutions, However, I will take a vote  on the three deities specifically raised. Gyronna, Hanspur and Besmara.

For the sake of clarity, I will ask that you each give me your view on each of them.

Should they be forbidden to build places of worship in Midmarch?  Please vote now ..."

This message was last edited by the GM at 18:36, Fri 12 June 2020.

Kendrick Winters
 player, 466 posts
 Marshal-Dominus
 Knight Paladin of Iomedae
Fri 12 Jun 2020
at 19:29
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
"Nay!" Kendrick said in a loud, clear voice. There was no question where he stood in this discussion.
Andalon de Lebeda
 Player, 930 posts
 Bishop at Cathedral of
 Abadar in Tusk City
Sat 13 Jun 2020
at 00:20
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
Andalon looks surprised by Kendrick's outburst.

"Are you feeling well, Sir Kendrick? You sound a little horse.

"My vote is yes, but with some minor clarification.

"Places of worship of Gyronna should be forbidden in Midmarch, and we should add all other evil deities to that list.

"Places of worship of Hanspur and Besmara larger than a small, private shrine should be forbidden in Midmarch."

Ethankos
 player, 155 posts
 Cleric of Pharasma
 All stories end in death
Sat 13 Jun 2020
at 06:57
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
"My vote is aye, we should forbid all three their temples," Ethankos gives his answer to the Lady Aranel, equally as certain in his stance on the matter as is Kendrick, if of the opposite view.

"Without clarification," the large man grins once more at Andalon.
~Brother Thaddeus Riverson
 NPCe, 5 posts
 Acolyte of Iomedae
 Domitius Companion
Sat 13 Jun 2020
at 09:02
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
"I would tend to agree with Lord Kendrick, the banning of worship of any diety is asking for trouble.

Gyronna is the type of goddess who bring's more ill than good so I support the ban.

Besmara is a goddess of the sea, her centre of power is far from here, I feel a ban upon her isn't really necessary.

Finally Hanspur, he is the master of the Sellen river and most of the waterways in the area, I would support His Grace and only allow shrines to appease his wrath.


~Aranel Romanese
 NPC e, 5 posts
Sat 13 Jun 2020
at 12:47
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
"Yes, all three should be forbidden from building places of worship here. Of course, I doubt Gyronna's followers would have bothered asking for permission in the first place, so we should be on our guard against her cults cropping up."
Kendrick Winters
 player, 467 posts
 Marshal-Dominus
 Knight Paladin of Iomedae
Sat 13 Jun 2020
at 16:09
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
In reply to Kendrick Winters (msg # 28):

Kendrick looked confused. "What's so funny? The religions for considerations should be banned. My answer if they should be allowed is 'Nay'."
Alisa D'Medvyed
 player, 287 posts
 Half-elf Cleric
Sat 13 Jun 2020
at 16:39
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
Alisa winked at Sir Kendrick, "While I won't presume to speak for him, I think Bishop de Lebeda is just having a little fun with you, good paladin."   

As to her own vote - "I admit readily, my own experience is solely as an itinerant and independent priestess.  It would be easy for me to become passionate about this, and address it strictly from a level of faith, and vote to bar and ban all three wholesale.  However, I don't believe any faith is well served by losing sight of the big picture, and excluding the social, political and other aspects of such a matter."   

"As I said earlier, inspiring grudges and compelling secretive practice could lead to more bloodshed and death.  So, I'm in agreement with the bishop as to Hanspur and Besmara - allow them a small, formal presence; one that can be watched.   And as to Gyronna, I can but repeat what I said earlier, and what others have said:  too twisted and malicious to be allowed any presence."

This message was last edited by the player at 16:41, Sat 13 June 2020.

Andalon de Lebeda
 Player, 931 posts
 Bishop at Cathedral of
 Abadar in Tusk City
Sun 14 Jun 2020
at 03:54
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
"Ah, forgive me, Sir Kendrick," Andalon replied, sounding genuinely apologetic. "The question we were asked to vote on was 'Should they be forbidden to build places of worship in Midmarch?' Your answer confused me."

"I agree we should ban the worship of evil deities like Gyronna outright."

"However, non-evil deities like Hanspur and Besmara are a different matter. I agree with what Aranel said earlier, building places of worship or openly preaching either of these two should be proscribed. But like it or not, those deities do still exist and I would not blame a fisherman or river trader for privately offering a prayer to appease either of those gods before sailing on the river. I would not wish to see such folk punished for maintaining a small, private shrine on their boat or in their home or office either. Punish them for drowning someone or for acts of piracy, certainly, but not for just looking for some sort of insurance against acts of gods."

DM
 GM, 3755 posts
Fri 19 Jun 2020
at 14:48
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
DeityAllow Ban Limited
Gyronna Andalon, Kendrick, Ethankos, Thaddeus, Aranel, Alisa 
Hanspur Kendrick, Ethankos, AranelAndalon, Thaddeus, Alisa
BesmaraThaddeusKendrick, Ethankos, AranelAndalon, Alisa

That appears to be a resounding ban for Gyronna and a split decision for both Hanspur and Besmara.

I'll leave the thread open for a bit longer, as there are still a couple of PC priests who have not voted.  Each and every priest is allowed a vote, even if it contradicts a vote cast by someone else of the same faith.  There are many ways to interpret any faith :)
~Jensen
 NPC p, 24 posts
 Mordanian
Fri 19 Jun 2020
at 21:47
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
Jensen scratched at the scruff on his face. His attempts at growing a beard were failing because his facial hair proved too fine.

I want to say ban them all and be done. But what you say about limited shrines for non-evil deities seems the most fair. I vote to ban Gyronna and limit the others.
_ Brother Barthomew
 NPC e, 40 posts
 NPC - Henry's Chaplain
 Priest of Pharasma
Sun 21 Jun 2020
at 08:38
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
Bart looks around the room for other votes, before he says, "That nudges it in favour of banning Gyronna outright and allowing private worship, such as small shrines, for both Hanspur and Besmara.  I will ask Henry to amend the Midmarch Legal Charter accordingly."
DM
 GM, 3758 posts
Sun 21 Jun 2020
at 08:43
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council


New Meeting


_ Borric d'Cordain
 NPC x, 96 posts
 Chief Magistrate
 Paladin of Iomedae
Sun 21 Jun 2020
at 09:01
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
Shortly after the previous meeting, Lord Borric calls everyone together again.  "In recognition of our work so far, Henry has suggested that we should build a settlement devoted to the gods, perhaps called Kunlun.  He will donate land for us to use, and has suggested somewhere between Silverton and New Dawn and will, build  a meeting hall for our use.  He invites us to build Shrines, Holy Houses and other such establishments, to make Kunlun a place of pilgrimage for the people of Midmarch.


What are your thoughts on this?  The house of Iomedae is prepared to contribute by building a watchtower, emblazoned with The Inheritor's sword, to act as our shrine."




OOC:
  • Proposed location is Hex 22.
  • Kunlun is the name is a 'home of the gods' from Chinese mythology.
  • Multiple religious buildings of the same type are permitted (so long as they are dedicated to different deities)
  • The hall will be a 'Guild hall' from this page http://rp.baileymail.net/doku....s2:busorgs:societies and you will be allowed to build small shrines as part of the development.
  • You will be allowed to develop 'suitable' shrines.  ie Cayden with a Tavern that incorporates a shrine.
  • Perhaps (eventually) a Library to hold sets of religious books?

Andalon de Lebeda
 Player, 935 posts
 Bishop at Cathedral of
 Abadar in Tusk City
Sun 21 Jun 2020
at 15:33
Re: FUZZY: Midmarch Religious Council
"In principle, yes, the Cathedral of Abadar would be happy to establish a shrine at the proposed Kunlun site. It will depend upon our other investments to determine whether we can afford to do so this year, of course, but if we can, we will," Andalon replied.