There is no rush -  I am not going to do anything for at least two weeks

Campaign Rounds mean I update all sorts of game webpages, and recently I have realized that we are getting to a point where secondary characters and entourages might soon control enough Defence points to become eligible for noble titles.  It was always my intention that Active PCs would be the most significant characters in the game -  in terms of ability, levels and influence.  OK we are stuck with a few ex-PCs who have already been promoted, although most haven't been promoted too far.  There are already a few restrictions in place.

  Most Entourages, and NPCs will never be able to control more than 3 Defence points -  which means that they can never advance beyond the lowest title rank of Laird.  This is because there are restrictions on the Southern Chapter appointment structure.  To be promoted to Officer of the Order, the character must have been on a combat mission on behalf of the state - and most Entourages never have been.  That means the highest they can rise in the order is Member of the Order -  and Members are already restricted to controlling 3bp.

However, that doesn't cover some NPCs, Entourages (a few cousins-allies) or Cohorts.  Just to make it worse, I have been thinking of running a couple of small adventures for Level 5 (and above)  Entourages (Cousins and Allies) who now need to progress by gaining experience points.   Which would automatically make some Entourages eligible for promotion to Officer of The Order -  where there are no restrictions on Def Points controlled.

So, a couple of possible examples.

Marik is Baron New Dawn -  and he has gained this by accumulating 15 defence points.  Some of those Def points are associated with developments that are assigned to Entourages.  Gabriel and Brother Lutz.   If Marik were to build a Small castle - he would have 21 Def Points  -  but he can't progress beyond Baron - which only needs 15 def points.  So he has 6 def points to spare.  he could assign 5 of those to Gabriel -  a making Gabriel eligible for promotion to Lord-Dominus.  (and I don't see a problem with that) - But what if Marik goes to town and builds more Def points and Gabriel becomes eligible for higher ranks?

Dom, as a March Lord has more flexibility - although he too cannot progress beyond the rank of Baron  (basically because there are no rules for that ATM) -  but he has El'Indre (an NPC) building a settlement in his area, and he has Barbatius (Cohort) who could also be given an area.  What about Kiera, an Ex-PC and a senior member of House Solanus.


I am going to suggest that, no matter what happens, entourages and (most) NPCs can't advance beyond Lord Dominus status -  and that no other NPC (be they a cohort, NPCx or one of my 'special' NPCs) can rise beyond the status of Lord.

That would mean:

• Most NPCs and Entourages would stop at Laird
• A few (mainly entourage Cousins / Allies) would be able to get to Lord-Dominus
• a few secondary characters (Cohorts and some NPCs) could rise to the rank of Lord

I would appreciate your thoughts on that.

I think the solution you have offered suits nicely. Although, it might be nice to have an easy listing of titles/personages to refer to as needed.

For instance, I had no idea that I should refer to Marik as Baron New Dawn rather than Baron Marik, Baron Aeris, or even Baron at all. Some diplomat I am.

Also, henceforth I will be known as Tyrant Mordane to avoid any confusion. (OK, it is actually to feed my ego. But still…)

Dom still refers to Cass as The Mordane. which I quite liked as a "Title"

I think having the NPC's top out at Lord makes sense.  They would have sworn fealty to their lord and if Baron is his top rank they wouldn't be able to rise to that level.

In Dom's case I can see Barbatius, Kiera and El all rising to Lord in time.

The Dwarven clan leaders though may need a think about.

I have been thinking about the higher titles, instead of Defense points perhaps that shouuld be based on the number of titles held by your vassals.

eg a count must have 3 barons and several lords vassals

In reply to Domitius Aldori-Solanus (msg # 4):
You do Elkin proud. I believe in his native tongue “The Mordane” means “His High and Mighty Nothingness.” But that is better than eel soup.

'The Mordane' mimics the title and styling given to Scottish Clan Leaders :)

The problem with titles is that they are fluid  :) and historically, criteria have changed to suit the circumstances - or as the ruler sees fit.  Not just British and European titles, but across the world.  In Europe - Duke, Arch Duke and Grand Duke are all examples of the way that title 'grew'.  A Viscount moved from being an administrative appointment, to being a hereditary noble title. Start moving to Germanic style titles and it gets way more complicated.  Some Princely titles are completely unique -  and try and work out where the Elector of Palatine fitted in, without knowing quite a bit of history (and doing some research). Baron, in Scotland  can mean something different to what it means in England.  And Lord is a minefield of meanings and status.  And when you get to Styling (how you should address a noble) it gets even worse.

Individuals (and houses) often have more than one title at different levels.  Take King Charles -  before his mother died, he was Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles and Prince and Great Steward of Scotland.   When he ascended the throne - he became King of (all sorts of places), He is also Duke of the Channel Islands  (although I am not sure of the exact titles)  and the local residents will refer to him as The Duke, rather than The King.  Technically, he is also Lord of Man (although I have no idea how the people there refer to him)

Def Points and the (slightly mishmash) title structure was about the easiest system I came up with to give us something straightforward that players could work towards.  And I tend to settle as Lord Marik, Lord Henry, Lord Cass -  as the normal  'styling'  for everyone.  Although, occasionally, I get carried away with other forms of their title.  Baron is the only title, in the campaign system, that has a requirement for 'owning' an estate - which is why (perhaps) I occasionally use that form of title for a baron.  Anything up to Lord can be land based or not.  For example - Adoven, cannot take the title  of Baron (under the rules) because he doesn't have an Estate - even though he is the richest PC by a long way.  Once he takes Candlemere Island -  that all changes.

Currently, Higher titles are political and handed out almost like Prizes on School Prize day.  Actually, all titles are like that - it is questionable if some of the northern Barons (and there are a few) - Baron Varn of Vin (Lord Maegar Varn's father) meets the requirements for Baron.  <Shrug>.  Ironically, I have been playing around (in my head)   with a system of Higher titles -  that is along the same lines as the one that Dom suggests earlier -  SHOULD those higher titles ever come into play.  However, there would need to be political change in Brevoy for that to happen  :)

Is Henry Viscount Midmarch or Southern Region?

Henry is Viscount Midmarch.  Tusk, Old Keep and Sunshold are all independent (palatine) holdings.  They, technically, have some duties and responsibilities to the King of Brevoy -  but none to Henry.

The mealy-mouthed bit - that lets me (as GM) manage parties, tasks etc -  is that Henry is Knight-Captain of The Southern Order - which has some influence across the whole of Southern Region.

It all boils down to what is most fun. Especially for the DM as world building is the large part of the benefit of all the hard work applied. I do like the diversity of titles as it adds flavor. For instance, Dom’s title of Senior Aldori Swordlord is a unique distinction. Perhaps less distinguishing but appropriate honorariums or statements of office could be awarded to NPCs in addition to their “lord” status such as Warden of the West, etc. This is one possible way to give them a touch more prestige without the “power/authority” of higher nobility.

PCs as well could bear such additional titles for flavor if desired, if not considered too cumbersome to deal with.

As far as political change, I wouldn’t mind the game taking a little more political leaning. My own hopes of an independent monarchy for the Stolen Lands is no secret. And Dom has signified interest in an independent Rostland. But I am not sure how interested the DM or other players are in such aspects.

Not that I am indicating any discontent for the game, or whichever direction it takes in the future. I rather look forward to it. It is a wellspring for my fantasy inclined mind.

*grin* you wouldn't want me to reveal all of my plans, too early, but I do listen to you guys -  just that it sometimes takes a while to come to fruition.  Especially in this format of game.  You should note that the King of Brevoy doesn't much like Southern, and we only got this level of independence through a narrowly averted Civil War and a Magna Carta like treaty.

Politics happens all the time -  but mainly in the background.  However, ask Adoven about his political restrictions - Henry has similar restrictions on his developments outside Southern, as well. :)  And, perhaps, note house Lebeda's interest in Southern Region ...

If he had won the duelling competition, Dom would have taken the title First Sword of Midmarch.  ;)
This message was last edited by the player at 08:25, Mon 09 Jan 2023.

Adoven wouldnt care about the title. Just the quiet acknowledgment of his peers.

Being the newcomer here, my input would be that the proposal makes sense and maximises the player characters time on "stage" and the opportunity for fun :)