It isn't a silly Question :)

The Group 0 map shows the roads and settlements of Midmarch -  It is the standard Kingmaker map (with overlays) that is divided into hexes that are 15 miles across.  I generally assume 2 hexes per day of travel for most travel, horses can move three hexes, but wagons and carts can only move one hex.  That isn't exactly RAW - but it is close enough and keeps things simple.

On horses you could do Tusk > Hunter's Rest > Olegs in two days -  although Hunter's Rest is a 'camp somewhere safe' option.  Mule trains and general travellers go Tusk > Silverton > Ringbridge > Outpost > Olegs and take 4 days.

As there's a skill related talk going on elsewhere, I've been meaning to bring this up-

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/background-skills/


GM, would you give any thought to using the rules for background skills?  As more of a writer, it always seems a little funny when I look at character skills, and there's little or nothing that reflects life before being an adventurer.

A rather light thing that helps flesh out a character, you know?

I asked about those in PM semi-recently Alisa and was told our DM didn't prefer that rule option.

The idea of "skills before adventuring" crops up every now and again and then goes away again in D&D rulesets. 2e had "Secondary skills", PF has Background Skills, 5e has backgrounds.

Personally I like those kinds of rules too as it lets me do more well rounded skill characters without sacrificing key class skills.

Thanks Zelona, good to know.     No big thing, really.   Hopefully it's ok to fudge somewhat on basic things.    It'd be a strange world if only rogues and those with very high IQ have any life skills!

In reply to Alisa D'Medvyed (msg # 453):

Swinging a sword is a life skill ;)
It all depends on where the player puts their ranks. Profession and Craft are class skills in all classes (I think)

40,000gp a year in tuition....
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html

When you've got like 3 points per level to work with, it's whether you can afford it.

Still, you've got a point about the sword!

I also asked about background skills. It seems we never have enough skill points for nonadventuring skills.

In reply to Alisa D'Medvyed (msg # 456):

Hehe, that’s where I’m at too. So I have a lot of 1 rank skills to spread it around a bit!

I think a part of that is that "full" skills fall into a larger concept of time and training, but there can still be areas where a character might have a bit of practical knowledge. And a lot of role playing opportunities can be had from that.

Cass might have spent a year or two helping build houses, but not have a full Carpentry profession skill. I could still role play him helping to build houses in his spare time.

(I won't of course. Because like Monopoly, Cass and I prefer to buy houses, and hotels, instead. All stray BPs welcome.) :)
This message was last edited by the player at 01:03, Wed 03 Apr 2019.

Background skills are tainted for me.  The one game I played in that had background skills -  I was playing a bard :)  I finished up with skills bonuses that could help my character big time.

However, I have a couple of other thoughts that affected my decisions as well.

Traits cover early character background - as do L1 feats and Skills  :)

For most people in RL - Hobby and amateur skills are generally quite low-level when compared to professionals - although they are higher than 'average' or even on a par with low level professionals.  Properly trained professionals are always much better.

For example -  a few years ago I used to run pub-quizzes and Karaoke sessions, and I earned a small but, regular, income for doing it.  I didn't invest a lot of time learning how to be an 'entertainer' but I ran a good local quiz.  However, I wasn't good enough to be a TV quiz show host, or even a half-decent local radio presenter.

Had I spent a few extra skill points learning the art -  who knows  :)

With this world's demographic - an 'every day' professional entertainer (maybe a cast member in a touring show) is liable to be a L3 expert with 12 Cha.  So  Class Skill = +3, Cha = +1, skills = +3  -  Gives a +7.   Someone dedicated (the lead performers of the touring show) might take Skill Focus - to give a +10.  A bard can use extra levels and bonuses -  but they have the chance to become the 'in game' equivalent of a star:0

At the same time the average musician playing his bone-flute in the local bar for the villagers' entertainment -  will likely be a L3 commoner with Cha 1 -  so a max skill of +3.

The main purpose for Background skills was to give player access to extra points in 'Non adventuring' skills. Skills people do not normally take, but would give flavor to their characters.

Background Skills:

• Appraise
• Artistry
• Craft
• Handle Animal
• Knowledge (engineering)
• Knowledge (geography)
• Knowledge (history)
• Knowledge (nobility)
• Linguistics
• Lore
• Perform
• Profession
• Sleight of Hand

There is no question that if you are playing a skill heavy class like Rogue or Bard, you need this less than if you are playing a Cleric, Fighter, Sorcerer or Wizard, but honestly they are just not going to break the balance in either case.

I use Background Skills in all the games I have run because they allow the characters to embrace hobbies and side items they might not normally be able to with typical class skills. It encourages a character to embrace something they might normally ignore.  Games like this it is doubly effective because it allows people to explore craft, profession and perform for their downtime projects without having to sacrifice adventuring skills to do so.  While this is not a democracy, I vote for them!

Stas - Many of those skills have been used in this game already.

Ironically - Traits were were supposed to allow a player to give flavour and enhance their character background as well.  But that soon got re-purposed to add adventuring skills.  the same  happens with background Skills.  At the moment, if you want to enhance your craft Skills, you need to make a conscious decision to do so - at the cost of some other skill that might be useful.  That is why I am trying to work out a solution to crafting/creating in game.

If a player chooses to enhance adventuring skills over social or other non-combat skills - even when there are options (Traits) to do that in the system already -   should I penalise those players who build a rounded character?

One of the reasons I  stick close to the CRB  :)

In reply to DM (msg # 463):

Sure, they been used. Players do not always optimize their skill builds.


Their purpose was never to give skills outside adventuring. They can add flavor or be used to mini-max. The issue is as always in D&D3+ flavor vs optimization.

In reply to DM (msg # 465):

Yeah, so what? They give story seeds, but no real way to build on them? Making a skill a class skill is nice, but if your class has 2 points per level, so what?

I feel like this discussion is getting a bit heated.

DM has said how they feel about the background skill variant option. We as players need to say "ok", and move on with the game part of the game.

The classes with 2 skill points per level, have other abilities instead.  Often feats or casting abilities.

A fighter with 2 skill points has a shed loads of feats to make up for it :)  OK - they are fixed by class, but that is the exchange/sacrifice.  The same is true for most other character classes.

Ironically, the class with probably the most in terms of feats, skills and abilities is the bard -   and is generally considered to be one of the least powerful classes, least able to take a leading role  :)  Actually, something I have never really agreed with  :)  the class just needs playing properly.

I spent about two years doing analysis of equivalence between Classes, as I investigated the possibility of a classless system.  I decided that while I could get a system that worked, it lost the 'feel' that went with D&D style games.

Just as important is the average skill level of the world - across all of the characters that live in the game world.  Knowledge(History) 6 makes you a good amateur Historian.  That really isn't hard to achieve.  One trait, a decent ability score and one point spent. It is generally only PCs who have skill modifiers much higher than that.

How many hobbies, extra social skills should a 'rounded' character have?  Personally (in RL) I think I probably have three or four non-work related skills that are above 1 or 2.  But that is because I have concentrated on developing Professional or (in D&D/PF terms) class skills.

Decision made.  No background skills.

Who/what is Hanspur?

Bummer I just wrote myself out of the scene :)

https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Hanspur

Valid points - I understand!

Using the first letter of each of the names in the current Group 1, we achieve:

EM PACEM

BRING PEACE