OOC Thread.   Posted by PFarland.Group: 0
Hendell
 player, 5 posts
Fri 8 Apr 2016
at 11:00
Re: OOC Thread
The question of dealing with the loss of technology is fairly simple.  2750 tech is effectively the same as 3050 tech (or level 2).

The 1st Succession War removes the ability to produce new units using level 2 technology the 2nd Succession War removes the ability to maintain level 2 technology and for all intents and purposes the 3rd Succession War removes all significant instances of existing level 2 technology on the battlefield, even those not destroyed in detail.

The Helm Memory core helps recover the tech level between 3030 and 3050 the ability to produce level 2 units is returned to any faction able to access significant amounts of the Memory Core 3055 sees the higher technology actually on the battlefield and 3060 starts to see the fist new (level 3) technology developed in centuries.

Can you include the full name of whatever book, and perhaps a page reference, for any rules you quote but do not include so we can look them up?
PFarland
 GM, 30 posts
Fri 8 Apr 2016
at 12:25
Re: OOC Thread
In reply to Hendell (msg # 25):

I'll include the rules page(s) from now on.

The thing is, we do need the mechanism for the removal.  What if someone through tactical brilliance gets through the 1st SW without losing factories (what seemed to cause it canon wise)?

We also need the mechanism for gaining tech.  What if come 3055 the LC Player decides that they want C3 units?  Do they just make that choice?  And research was still needed to be done.  Research does cost money.

Making blanket start/stop dates provides less control over what happens in the game.
Hendell
 player, 6 posts
Fri 8 Apr 2016
at 12:34
Re: OOC Thread
The funny thing about factories is they don't just magically make stuff.  They take in smaller parts and output larger parts, and more often than not the technological bottleneck is one of the smaller parts, or perhaps a few of them, and has nothing to do with the factory itself despite the fact that the factory does most of the hard work.

The succession wars did not remove the ability to make advanced technology by blowing up a few key factories in one faction's space, or two, or even all of them.  The loss of technology was from a systemic level of destruction of civilian assets simply not represented by any rules set in any war game, nor should it be.

The reason I suggested timeline locks on events like that is because they are really that, locked events in a timeline.  Change whatever you like about battles, planets, or even great houses and their shape but the degradation of technology will be the same.

The recovery of that same technology is not quite as wide spread but it is just as much a foregone conclusion.  Who recovered the tech and in exactly what manner may have changed but the discovery of the memory core on Helm was already well under way and an assured outcome long before the Grey Death Legion was tricked into playing the political fall guy for it.

Once the technology becomes available retooling a factory to make a new component should be the same as retooling it to switch between two old components.  I presume the cost of the component will factor into the cost of the factory so the C3 units being the most expensive per ton item in the game will make the factories cost higher, but it should not influence the underlying rules that govern the choice.
PFarland
 GM, 31 posts
Fri 8 Apr 2016
at 13:00
Re: OOC Thread
Hendell:
The succession wars did not remove the ability to make advanced technology by blowing up a few key factories in one faction's space, or two, or even all of them.  The loss of technology was from a systemic level of destruction of civilian assets simply not represented by any rules set in any war game, nor should it be.

The reason I suggested timeline locks on events like that is because they are really that, locked events in a timeline.  Change whatever you like about battles, planets, or even great houses and their shape but the degradation of technology will be the same.


And what I'm saying is if someone through brilliance skirts this destruction?  If we were playing WWII and Germany's Player manages to defend against the air campaign?  Yes there will be production & supply bottlenecks (which would show up as reduced RP), but they could still produce even if at a lesser sustained rate.

Hendell:
The recovery of that same technology is not quite as wide spread but it is just as much a foregone conclusion.  Who recovered the tech and in exactly what manner may have changed but the discovery of the memory core on Helm was already well under way and an assured outcome long before the Grey Death Legion was tricked into playing the political fall guy for it.


I don't like fixed dates as people can save up for them and game the system to create advantage.

Hendell:
Once the technology becomes available retooling a factory to make a new component should be the same as retooling it to switch between two old components.  I presume the cost of the component will factor into the cost of the factory so the C3 units being the most expensive per ton item in the game will make the factories cost higher, but it should not influence the underlying rules that govern the choice.


The thing is the new tech wasn't just blueprints that magically appeared on desks, these were research projects that cost money.  The cost's I put out there was a unit/mech design and equipment would be cheaper, but it should still cost.
Kyper
 player, 2 posts
Sat 9 Apr 2016
at 02:18
Re: OOC Thread
In reply to PFarland (msg # 28):

I am not a believer in using hard firm dates for this game. What if the succesion wars are not as destructive as they once were? What if the houses realize whats happening and move enough of the important civilian stuff to secret locations to forstall the collapse of technology? What if offensives were halted? Raids stopped?

There are to many what if's out there to simply say that 'at this date, tech is automatically reduced to this, then to this, then to this' etc.
Hendell
 player, 7 posts
Sat 9 Apr 2016
at 03:03
Re: OOC Thread
I did not mean by my use of dates following the discovery of the helm memory core to suggest that numbers are the key features in the events that happened to bring about the loss in technology.

As I see it we have four, perhaps five, political entities some of which may or may not end up being one or more of the great houses.  Unless we dig much farther down into the minor details of the events surrounding the first and second succession wars than would be likely in a game like this there will be an enormous number of events happening that we have little or no control or detail over.

The core story of the battletech universe is based on the degradation of technology through excessive military conflict, this leads to the Ares conventions which slows the degradation but does not quite halt it until after the fourth succession war when the bottom of the curve begins to arc back up.

It seems to me that these significant steps in the Battletech timeline are the events we want to play out in more detail, but are events that will happen none the less.  There will be things that change no doubt, but some things will remain the same.

As for the idea of recovering technology for free that is not what I suggested, I would use whatever cost is appropriate for the items in question based on whatever rules system is already in play, the higher tech items are already more expensive so that cost will translate into the game normally.  In the context of hoarding points for upcoming years I would simply not allow points developed by pre memory core resources to apply to post memory core features.
Kyper
 player, 3 posts
Sat 9 Apr 2016
at 03:35
Re: OOC Thread
In reply to Hendell (msg # 30):

ACtually you are off a bit.

The Ares Conventions happened WAY before the Succession Wars, and nearly a century, possibly two, before the formation of the first Star League, the one headed by the Camerons.

That being said, the core story of battletech isn't the degredation of technology, it's the Interstellar War that occured as a result of the fall of the Star League.

The degredation of technology happened as a result of the totality of war used in the Succession Wars by the Successor Houses. It resulted because the Great Houses decided to throw away the Ares Conventions, signed in 2412, and bomb and destroy population centers with great impunity.

Remember, to quote a timeline you need to know it.

The Age of War was a 150 year period between 2398 and 2550.
Ares Conventions were signed in 2412.
First Star League Formed in 2571.
First Star LEague Collapsed in 2781.
First Succession War Begins in 2786, ended in 2821.
Second Succession War begins in 2830, ended in 2864.
Third Succession War begins in 2866, ended in 3025.
Fourth Succession War begins in 3028, ended in 3030.

What many people do not realize, is during the Age of War technology actually rose. Not as much as it did during the Star League, but it still rose. Like I said before, what caused to decline of technology was when most of the House Lord's renounced the Ares Conventions. Then they went about nuking everything, using bio and chem weapons on everyone.
Hendell
 player, 8 posts
Sat 9 Apr 2016
at 03:57
Re: OOC Thread
Fair point, I was talking about the core setting, rather than the story I often do that as I tend to gravitate to setting as the more important feature.

As for the ares conventions I was pointing at the return to and or resumption of use on the already existing conventions the ignoring of which is the cause of the loss of technology.

The question of which is more important story action or the intentional staging of the setting as atypical in that technology is lost rather than gained is a matter of opinion but both are intrinsic to the concept of Battletech.  I would suggest that leaving either open to reinterpretation would risk the game deviating to far from the core principals of the game to be reasonable.

For instance if technology does not fall in the succession war era or Comstar did not hoard that technology we could easily see the development of functional nano-tech and or high temperature superconductors in which Battlemechs become immune to energy weapons, heat limits become a thing of the past, and armor repairs itself fast enough to be considered battlefield regeneration.  None of these concepts are alien to Sci-Fi nor are they outside the realm of 'predicted' technological improvement on a continuous 1000 year curve.  The loss of technology is key to the setting and the story, when it happens, or why can be adjusted but it must happen.
Kyper
 player, 4 posts
Sat 9 Apr 2016
at 04:08
Re: OOC Thread
In reply to Hendell (msg # 32):

Normally I'd agree with you, however we already have a basis to go from for how the technology should advance both on the civilian, and military side all the way to 3050 via the Clans. Especially considering they had unhindered technological growth up to that point.

Anyway, instead of making it based on when you hit a certain point in time, we could make it based on when a certain amount of your infrastructure is destroyed. Both civil and military. That would be considerably more realistic.
PFarland
 GM, 32 posts
Sat 9 Apr 2016
at 05:24
Re: OOC Thread
There is a point, most likely when we've hit all the 'available' tech in the books where we either have to stop tech advance, stop the game, or come up with our own tech.

Stopping the tech advance is easy - at that point when you have everything, there is nothing more to get tech wise.

Stopping the game is also easy - Though probably the most unsatisfactory.

Coming up with our own tech - This has 2 variants, one eminently feasible the other not so much so.  Coming up with our own actual tech will probably just be one long argument "Super-Mega-Death Lasers are possible because of X", "No, they aren't Y clearly says that that doesn't work!"  The 'Better' version is just diverting tech into production bonuses.  Stuff just becomes easier, thus cheaper, to build/buy.




And while yes, the loss and then the regaining of tech, along with the invasion of the clans, ComStar doing its version of multiple personality disorder and then the WoBbies interstellar hissy fit leading up to the republic, etc.  This is all classic Battletech.  And since we are starting with the fall of Star League, the end will change more and more as we deviate from it.

Truth be told, some things I don't see changing such as the tech loss.  That happened because of the loss of factories, key personnel, universities, etc.  I think that, coupled with having less factories to produce lines of advance tech just to get the cheaper easier stuff out there, will happen.

I just, as a player (hopefully) want to have my own impact on WHEN that happens either positively (by protecting my tech) or negatively (by bombing everyone else's).  Have it happen at X date because that's when it did canon just isn't doing it for me.  And that kind of answer will get more unsatisfactory as we continue through the game and get further from canon.




The set of tech that came out in the 3060's was driven by access to the Helm Core, The War of 3039 tech, the Clans, and the research that took place on their stuff.  Change any one of those, along with any changes in funding, and you'll see dates changing.
PFarland
 GM, 40 posts
Mon 11 Apr 2016
at 16:46
Re: OOC Thread
Posted some stuff in the "Units" thread.  Small poll regarding the remnant Star League forces.
ScrapYardArmory
 player, 1 post
Tue 12 Apr 2016
at 19:13
Re: OOC Thread
Hello all,

This is ScrapYardArmory.  I've been in and out of the hobby since the 90's.  Not as long as some here, but good enough I suppose.

I'm interested in what you are trying to do.  There have been lots of examples of grand strategic games in the past and very very few have made it past their infancy to see fruitful play.

I'm rooting for you.  I'd love to help even.

So are you really going for a full on InnerSphere game for your first go?  How much leg work has been done so far?  Has anyone played the new ACS or ISW rules in the past?
PFarland
 GM, 41 posts
Tue 12 Apr 2016
at 22:37
Re: OOC Thread
ScrapYardArmory:
Hello all,

This is ScrapYardArmory.  I've been in and out of the hobby since the 90's.  Not as long as some here, but good enough I suppose.


Howdy, and welcome to the club!  It's the love of the game that matters, not the legth of the love.

ScrapYardArmory:
I'm interested in what you are trying to do.  There have been lots of examples of grand strategic games in the past and very very few have made it past their infancy to see fruitful play.

I'm rooting for you.  I'd love to help even.


Then comment away!  Post your views, thoughts, ideas.  The good thing about this venue for the game is there are a TON of players here and switching out players (or even GMs) is relatively easy.  Plus, the change in strategy from one player to the next can EASILY be explained by a change in leaders.

ScrapYardArmory:
So are you really going for a full on InnerSphere game for your first go?  How much leg work has been done so far?  Has anyone played the new ACS or ISW rules in the past?


Yep, even debating putting together a clan game, though that seems unlikely due to the number of players necessary and complete lack of rules for that play.  Mostly thought processes, but I'm in the middle of some regarding the SLDF units.

I haven't, but there is a few years between the end of the Amaris Coup and the 1st SW starting in earnest.  This will allow a bit of time regarding playing with ISW rules and there can always be "simulator" battles between players or the GM.
Redfoxmagi
 player, 1 post
Tue 12 Apr 2016
at 23:09
Re: OOC Thread
Hey, everyone!  I'm a bit younger than the crowd here it seems, but I grew up with Battletech.  I'm not as well-versed in the lore as you all obviously are, so I'm content to listen to the debate as it goes on until we arrive at the consensus for how the game is going to work.  I'll be in and out a bit due to medical school exams in three weeks, but after that bit of bumpiness I should be ok for a little while.

I'm looking forward to writing with you all!
PFarland
 GM, 42 posts
Wed 13 Apr 2016
at 01:00
Re: OOC Thread
In reply to Redfoxmagi (msg # 38):

This just doesn't go for you, but everyone.

I actually work better when I'm talking or explaining things to people so PLEASE don't be afraid to ask questions or comment.  I'm not the kind of guy that comes up with rules out of the blue, I see something else, take it, fix it, improve it and then I have my rule.

For me a conversation about how things work is a very good thing.  I would much rather explain the basics than to keep quiet.  It helps me to mentally 'walk down the path' and either see potential problems or see potential expansions.
PFarland
 GM, 45 posts
Thu 14 Apr 2016
at 06:38
Re: OOC Thread
I'm running Player Polls to see what mechanics people are preferring.  Please let me know.  This will be your game as much as mine.
bblaney
 player, 11 posts
Thu 14 Apr 2016
at 12:38
Re: OOC Thread
Moved to:  Lostech, Research, and the Helm Memory Core thread


What about improving upon older tech to better than Star League tech? We don't necessarily have to go in reverse either and destroy our tech base as bad as the Inner Sphere did in canon.

This message was last edited by the GM at 13:56, Thu 14 Apr 2016.

PFarland
 GM, 53 posts
Mon 18 Apr 2016
at 01:52
Re: OOC Thread
Back in town.
PFarland
 GM, 57 posts
Mon 25 Apr 2016
at 03:22
Re: OOC Thread
Just wanted to let everyone know I haven't forgotten the game, just haven't had a whole lot of time to devote to it this past week.
PFarland
 GM, 58 posts
Thu 28 Apr 2016
at 01:55
Re: OOC Thread
Another update, working to convert Warships into Alpha Strike, then into ACS.
lordblackk
 player, 4 posts
Thu 28 Apr 2016
at 02:12
Re: OOC Thread
Not sure if anyone has been following the Catalyst twitter, but it looks like there is a new Succession Wars book in the works:

http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr...sion-war-development
PFarland
 GM, 59 posts
Thu 28 Apr 2016
at 03:54
Re: OOC Thread
In reply to lordblackk (msg # 45):

Yeah, the issue with this and the ISW Companion is when they will actually come out.  I love BTech and Catalyst, but they get behind in books.  I understand why, I even agree with it, and let's face it, it's an industry wide problem.  But waiting for the books to come out is a LONG proposition.
PFarland
 GM, 60 posts
Tue 3 May 2016
at 00:50
Re: OOC Thread
Ok, now have my hands on First Succession War.  Still trying to come up with an excel conversion for Warships, Dropships and the like.
lordblackk
 player, 5 posts
Tue 21 Jun 2016
at 12:31
Re: OOC Thread
So is this officially dead?
Redfoxmagi
 player, 2 posts
Tue 21 Jun 2016
at 12:34
Re: OOC Thread
Seems like it.