Darut
 member, 21 posts
Mon 29 Apr 2019
at 19:38
Uncounsious character
If a character is uncounsious due to poison which suppose to last another hour or so, is there a way to wake the character in D&D?
aguy777
 member, 308 posts
 Join Date:
 Thu, 28 Nov, 2013
Mon 29 Apr 2019
at 19:50
Uncounsious character
Which version of D&D are you referring to?
Darut
 member, 22 posts
Mon 29 Apr 2019
at 19:59
Uncounsious character
In reply to aguy777 (msg # 2):

Specifically Pathfinder.
Korentin_Black
 member, 537 posts
 I remember when all
 this was just fields...
Mon 29 Apr 2019
at 23:23
Uncounsious character

 'Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creatureís Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.'

 Is the general condition, but doesn't exactly apply to poison (such as blue whinnis paste). Neutralise Poison would definitely work as it ends temporary conditions resulting from the poison, but Heal (the skill) would not, except by improving the saving throw of the victim.

 Maybe there's an alchemical item however.
Darut
 member, 23 posts
Tue 30 Apr 2019
at 00:02
Uncounsious character
Delay Poison would seem to work as well, at least temporarily. Alchemically speaking there are Smelling salts which it would seem work by granting you a new saving throw

"Smelling salts grant you a new saving throw to resist any spell or effect that has already rendered you unconscious or staggered."

What I find puzzling that neither Antitoxin nor the use of the Heal skill would help.
DarkLightHitomi
 member, 1550 posts
Tue 30 Apr 2019
at 01:43
Uncounsious character
The heal skill is either applying something, like antidote, or doing something to the body, like accu-pressure. Frankly, what kind of thing do you expect a healer to do to negate a poison effect without an item or spell? There's nothing a bandage can do, nothing accupressure or surgery could do.

As for anti-toxin, toxins are a type of poison. However, pop-culture tends to treat poorly understood things in very odd ways, sometimes ignoring overlap or connections between two things, other times adding overlap or connections that aren't real.

It is entirely possible that the designers use the term "poison" only for poisons that aren't toxins.

Also possible that there is something here the designers failed to account for, not realizing that mechanics or descriptions are hindering what should be allowed because it is rare enough the posdibility never occured to them.
Korentin_Black
 member, 538 posts
 I remember when all
 this was just fields...
Tue 30 Apr 2019
at 05:36
Uncounsious character
In reply to Darut (msg # 5):

 Sadly not:

'The subject becomes temporarily immune to poison. Any poison in its system or any poison to which it is exposed during the spellís duration does not affect the subject until the spellís duration has expired. Delay poison does not cure any damage that poison may have already done.'

 And 'unconsciousness' is the 'damage' that the poison has done.

 Smelling salts on the other hand?

These sharply scented gray crystals cause people inhaling them to regain consciousness. Smelling salts grant you a new saving throw to resist any spell or effect that has already rendered you unconscious or staggered. If exposed to smelling salts while dying, you immediately become conscious and staggered, but must still make stabilization checks each round; if you perform any standard action (or any other strenuous action) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act and fall unconscious again. A container of smelling salts has dozens of uses if stoppered after each use, but depletes in a matter of hours if left opened.

 Ding-ding, we have a winner!

 Plus, you can use the Heal skill with the salts:

To treat poison means to tend to a single character who has been poisoned and who is going to take more damage from the poison (or suffer some other effect). Every time the poisoned character makes a saving throw against the poison, you make a Heal check. If your Heal check exceeds the DC of the poison, the character receives a +4 competence bonus on his saving throw against the poison.
Darut
 member, 24 posts
Tue 30 Apr 2019
at 13:14
Re: Uncounsious character
Korentin_Black:
Sadly not:

'The subject becomes temporarily immune to poison. Any poison in its system or any poison to which it is exposed during the spellís duration does not affect the subject until the spellís duration has expired. Delay poison does not cure any damage that poison may have already done.'

And 'unconsciousness' is the 'damage' that the poison has done.

I would disagree on this. If the damage was already done and the character is at positive hit points, then he would be conscious. In this case the damage is ongoing, the poison is still in effect, therefore Delay Poison would interrupt this effect.

Imagine this situation: a character is affected by poison that is doing 1 hit point per round for 10 rounds. In round 5 someone casts a Delay Poison spell on him. The Delay Poison will not cure the 5 points he has already taken, but postpones the additional rounds of damage for the duration of the spell.

I see unconsciousness due to poison as the same situation. The poison is still circulating in the system and having a continuous affect.
Korentin_Black
 member, 539 posts
 I remember when all
 this was just fields...
Thu 2 May 2019
at 02:19
Re: Uncounsious character
In reply to Darut (msg # 8):

 You're welcome to disagree, but the rules are pretty clear on this one: Unconsciousness is an effect of the poison that's exactly the same as ability or hit point damage, listed in the same column and without any text differentiating it.

 Delay Poison prevents the recipient from taking further damage or making further saves until it's expired, but it expressly does not undo what the poison has already done.

 That said, if your GM - which may be you - wishes to house-rule otherwise, they're welcome to do so, but the RAW support the character staying out until woken by one of the aforementioned techniques.
Darut
 member, 25 posts
Thu 2 May 2019
at 02:30
Re: Uncounsious character
Unconsciousness is an effect of the poison that's exactly the same as ability or hit point damage

But its not. Ability or hit point damage occurs and is done. Unconsciousness is an ongoing effect of the poison and thus can be interrupted by Delay Poison. Note that Smelling Salts do not stop it, but give another saving throw to the character. RAW support whatever you want it to support until it is "officially" answered.
Korentin_Black
 member, 540 posts
 I remember when all
 this was just fields...
Thu 2 May 2019
at 05:16
Re: Uncounsious character
 That would be reasonable, except for Neutralise Poison:

You detoxify any sort of venom in the creature or object touched. If the target is a creature, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the DC of each poison affecting the target. Success means that the poison is neutralized. A cured creature suffers no additional effects from the poison, and any temporary effects are ended, but the spell does not reverse instantaneous effects, such as hit point damage, temporary ability damage, or effects that donít go away on their own.

This spell can instead neutralize the poison in a poisonous creature or object for 10 minutes per level, at the casterís option. If cast on a creature, the creature receives a Will save to negate the effect.


 Which quite explicitly does what the lower-level spell does not, and ends temporary effects upon the recipient.

This message was last edited by the user at 05:17, Thu 02 May.

Darut
 member, 26 posts
Thu 2 May 2019
at 12:36
Re: Uncounsious character
We are splitting hairs here, but it's important wording. I am arguing that uncounsiousness is not a temporary effect, but a continuous one. Besides, Delay Poison does not end the effect, but rather puts it off. Once the spell expires the character would revert to being uncounsious with no additional save, since he failed the first one.
Korentin_Black
 member, 541 posts
 I remember when all
 this was just fields...
Fri 3 May 2019
at 04:09
Re: Uncounsious character
In reply to Darut (msg # 12):

 I hedged over that myself actually, but I lean towards it being a temporary effect because of the final text: 'or effects that donít go away on their own.' - Unconsciousness does go away on its own, and is therefore a temporary effect, and so is ended by the higher-level spell.

 The lower-level spell has no such clause, and therefore has no effect upon it unless the DM decides otherwise.
DarkLightHitomi
 member, 1551 posts
Fri 3 May 2019
at 06:42
Re: Uncounsious character
I tend to think of unconciousness as a state of being. Something can put a character into that state, and certain conditions can bring a character out of that state.

Furthermore, for me, mechanics alone are not enough, there is also the narrative world to be considered. If a mechanic can not be made to fit narratively, then I change it, but I'll generally try to make it fit first.

In this case, one must consider what the poison is doing that puts someone into the state of unconciousness. My way of resolving this is to say that the poison puts someone into that state by supressing certain mental functions, and thus prevents other conditions from waking said person.

Thus, Delay Poison would not awaken someone, but would remove the suppression allowing someone to wake up for things that would normally awaken them. Certain things, like smelling salts, have an unusual capacity to work against this suppression and can thus be used even while the poison is in effect.
Darut
 member, 27 posts
Fri 3 May 2019
at 13:14
Re: Uncounsious character
In reply to DarkLightHitomi (msg # 14):

Yes, it's a different way of saying what I said.

Korentin_Black, Delay Poison is not a lesser version of Neutralize Poison, certainly not like Cure Light Wound and Cure Major Wound for example. Delay does not do what Neutralize does, but at a lesser scale. It's a totally different spell which is more like a time stop for poison.

Here is an interesting question though if the smelling salts are used on an uncounsious person, does that use up the smelling salts?
DarkLightHitomi
 member, 1552 posts
Fri 3 May 2019
at 21:12
Re: Uncounsious character
No, smelling salts are not used up. Though if you leave them open for a few hours then they'll lose their smell and their ability to work.
Darut
 member, 28 posts
Fri 3 May 2019
at 21:43
Re: Uncounsious character
In reply to DarkLightHitomi (msg # 16):

Then its a great investment and every character needs to carry it.
DarkLightHitomi
 member, 1553 posts
Sat 4 May 2019
at 09:01
Re: Uncounsious character
Right along with 10' poles.
Korentin_Black
 member, 542 posts
 I remember when all
 this was just fields...
Sun 5 May 2019
at 09:19
Re: Uncounsious character
In reply to Darut (msg # 15):

 No-one suggested that it was, the words used were 'lower level spell'. As a general principle, lower level spells in a given field do not match the results of more powerful ones unless they're exquisitely specific...

 ...because that's one of the things spell levels are for.