The Caged Bird.   Posted by GM.Group: archive 2
GM
 GM, 464 posts
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Sun 25 Feb 2018
at 20:21
The Caged Bird
It is the day of the trial. That much is known. Many of the townsfolk have been spreading the word about the trial of a sin-eater that was found. Your group knows it could only mean Farrissa. What is more surprising is that the trial is to be held on open ground in the festival, rather than the secure complex of the knightly orders. Grandmaster of the Ashen Order, Gustav von Burmann, is to be presiding over it. Lady Inara is present, but maintaining a careful distance. She seems noticeably subdued.

The trial has already gathered a large crowd, many eager to see a sin-eater for the first time. It is rapidly becoming clear that the Ashen Order is doing it's best to ensure they have the public eye on the trial. It seems almost a farce considering the amount of posturing they have done in the past week. When you are able to see the trial area clearly, six figures are present in the center; the imposing figure of Grandmaster Gustav, a pair of Witch Hunters flanking the shaking, hooded form of Farrissa, and an older man with the look of nobility with a hand upon the shoulder of a haggard looking Roland.

Your group is able to gather near the front, the common people making way for the Adventurers with smiles and handshakes, many wishing you well in the future. Absent from your group is Brother Sul, presently with the Roses learning how to run a new order and securing the armory and relics from the tomb. A loud shout from the pair of Witch Hunter guards begins to quiet the crowd.

What are you doing?
Wrenn Muernig
 Player, 153 posts
 Gnome Wizard
 HP: 14/14
Sun 25 Feb 2018
at 21:47
The Caged Bird
Wrenn stands there evaluating the situation from every angle he can imagine. He looks for hidden snipers like the ones they'd seen before, and guards that are visibly posted. He looks for paths through or around the crowd in case they should be needed, and looks at the faces of every official within sight to try to get an understanding of everyone's mood before this trial officially begins.

There was a chance that the trial would work out in their favor, slim and neigh-impossible as it was, but Wrenn was looking for a solid Plan B in case things went south.

[private to dm: If there's a social roll made by someone who wants to convince people that she needs to die, I intend to use Portent to replace their roll with a 7 if it's lower, in order to try to keep the crowd against them.]
Griswold Ortmann
 Player, 259 posts
 Half-Elf
 Knight Errant
Mon 26 Feb 2018
at 00:51
The Caged Bird
Aside from a glance around to see if he can spot the Viscount, Griswold's attention is mostly on Roland.  With the apparent absence of the other witnesses, he believes that the Ashen Order's entire case must revolve around the boy.

The knight finds Roland's state somewhat unsettling.  Given the amount of time that had passed and having first hand knowledge of Lady Inara's healers' skill, the youth's haggard appearance is unexpected.  Could the boy be feeling guilty?  May be it was a sympathy play to get the crowd empathising with him?  Or was something more sinister going on, like coersion, or drugging?

He tries to assess the boys' health from distance then whispers his companions.

"Anyone else find it odd that the young Master Kilquist seems so unwell? He's had days to recover and would have received the best of care."

OOC
00:39, Today: Griswold Ortmann rolled 13 using 1d20+2.  Long range medicine

(He's not going to know what Roland's sickness is, but he might be able to discern if Roland is actually suffering from some sort of ailment - stumbling, sweating, red heavy sunken eyes, arms either clasped tight against the cold or hanging listlessly at his side.  That sort of thing.)

May I also ask what happened at the knightly compound before this?  Was Griswold and co able to meet with any of the Grandmasters and report their suspicions?  Was Lady Inara's controversial involvement made known?  Did we get confirmation that the Viscount was fully appraised of everything that had transpired - such as the involvement of the Rose and the Orc Shaman's spirit?  I assume that we were not able to talk to Roland, but what about the other boys from their group?

Thanks!

This message was last edited by the player at 00:56, Mon 26 Feb 2018.

GM
 GM, 465 posts
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Mon 26 Feb 2018
at 05:22
The Caged Bird
DM inject: You were able to send a message to the Grandmasters, as they were not able to meet in person due to the large numbers of judgements for squires.  A response from Sir Hector confirms they are aware of the implications but can do nothing until the investigation is concluded. Should the trial go against her, an appeal might be held.

As for Roland, it looks like he is simply exhausted to the extreme, as if he hasnít slept since he returned. From your distance, you can see little else.
Arizima
 Player, 131 posts
 Human Warlock
 HP: 24/24 AC: 14 PP: 13
Mon 26 Feb 2018
at 05:42
The Caged Bird
Arizima shows up in her finest ocean blue silks, her armor left behind her daggers clearly on display at her waist.  Even the fluid step to her gait and the constant vaguely amused smile are gone.  They're replaced with the proud straight backed walk and resting gaze of someone that's all too used to having their commands heard and answered.

She casts a curious eye over the proceedings taking in those assorted on the stage at a glance before looking at the others.  "Quickly.  Does Kriegan custom allow for a witness testimony of any sort?  Do we have confirmation that this trial surrounds a supposed attempt on Roland's life?  I need to know how much of my planning is sound and I need to know how many rules I can work with and how many I'm going to have to bend or break over the next few minutes." 

She nods toward Griswold. "Regardless if I do attempt to talk our way out of this or at least force another round of debate I'll likely need your assistance.  Your presence as an honored freshly minted knight will help lend credence to anything I say and help discredit attempts to use my heritage against me.  If anyone else has an idea, counter proposal or wishes to help I'd be glad for it so long as it involves no touch of the arcane, a hint of lip, or threats." She gives Wrenn an apologetic half bow.  "Those complications are the last things we need at this moment."
Eri Sato
 Player, 41 posts
Mon 26 Feb 2018
at 17:52
The Caged Bird
ooc: Just a few questions. I assume Eri is with them? If not she would probably go on her own out of curiosity and perhaps run into them there, either way. Also did they ever meet with Whisper and officially get the identity of her pupil?

Eri watches the scene with the curiosity of someone who barely understands what is happening but is too timid to admit it. It's clear that her companions must know these people, but then being so important in this community, that's not surprising. From Arizima's words though, she meant to start something. What had she gotten herself into? She should have stayed with that blasted merchant and minded her own business! This was what came of meddling with other people. Oh well, too late for it now. If they needed her help, she would help. In the meantime she keeps an eye out for pickpockets, keeping her own coin tucked into the inner folds of her wrapped belt. They'd have to dig their hands in to get anything and if anyone tried they'd get a fist to the nose faster than they could blink. She'd done enough work for the merchant to know just how many thieves there were in this town.
Griswold Ortmann
 Player, 260 posts
 Half-Elf
 Knight Errant
Mon 26 Feb 2018
at 18:14
The Caged Bird
Arizima's appearance did not go unnoticed by Griswold's discerning eye.  "Looking good enough to eat, Apricot." A half-smile and lingering glance is all that he has time to spare however as he quickly moves on to address her questions.

"Anyway, trials are normally held behind closed doors.  Only those invited to speak may do so.  Accusations, retorts and evidence are presented. Then anywhere between one and five court assigned judges - nobles - pass verdict.  In knightly courts, things are a little different.  There is no upper limit on the number of judges, but pragmatism normally dictates three max. Typically these judges come from the order hosting the trial, as we can see here with Sir Gustav.  In very special cases, with wide ranging implications, multiple orders may get involved.  In these cases one judge would be assigned from each order.

"As I understand things, public events like this are not unknown for common trials, but are extremely rare for knightly ones.  Especially the famously insular Ashen Order.  Its one of the many reasons why people are so suspicious of them.  To be doing this they must feel supremely confident that they can carry a guilty verdict.  I suppose they think it is a forgone conclusion."
Griswold nods towards the Grandmaster-come-judge, "As well they might with Sir Gustav presiding, of course.  The only judge and he's already assured of her guilt.  Though, considering the Order's history with so-called sin-eaters, I suspect he could care less about her guilt, innocence or anything in between.  It's got to be more about revenge and turning the public against her kind.

"As for whether or not you can speak?  Normally, no.  As I said trials are by invitation only.  But a public trial?  Theoretically anyone can be heard.  You just have to get enough support that you can't be ignored.  Whether that comes in the form of someone with a lot of influence over the case,"
Griswold nodded towards Viscount Kilquist, "Some notable attendees," He indicated towards the knightly Grandmasters, "Or the masses as a whole." He back-nodded to the crowd.

"As for why a public trial is any sort of risk for the Ashen Order, well for one it would be extremely embarrassing for the accusers to lose in public.  But more than that it's because the crowd is essentially another judge.  And not just any judge, but one with effective veto over the others.  Because, with enough public support, even a unanimous decision from any number of other judges could be overturned.  Or at least brought into question.  There would be a tremendous uproar and huge controversy if a verdict went against overwhelming public opinion.

"Though even that may not be enough to stop the Ashen Order."


OOC - Of course you can be with us Eri :D Griswold would have invited everyone and filled you in some.  Quick recap: Farrissa, the accused, is one of another team in the competition we were in.  Roland, also from her group and of noble birth, became possessed by an evil spirit.  Since Farrissa is known to have special powers (a sin-eater) and considering Roland's status, we feel that she is being unfairly blamed.  If she's found guilty, Griswold believes the Ashen Order could stir up public opinion against other sin-eaters (maybe starting a witch hunt?) and relieve a lot of the pressure from Lady Inara (the competition's organiser), who is accused of endangering the public. That said, even we do not know exactly what transpired in the ruins, as we barely arrived in time to save everyone.

This message was last edited by the player at 18:56, Mon 26 Feb 2018.

Wrenn Muernig
 Player, 154 posts
 Gnome Wizard
 HP: 14/14
Mon 26 Feb 2018
at 20:09
The Caged Bird
"Griswold, would it help our cause to point out that Roland's family tried to keep her as a pet, using her powers for their own gain? You know the nonsensical laws of this land far better than I do."
Arizima
 Player, 132 posts
 Human Warlock
 HP: 24/24 AC: 14 PP: 13
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 18:41
The Caged Bird
Arizima nods along with Griswold as he speaks giving him a small nod.  "Understood.  I believe I can attempt to work with that if you're comfortable with the idea."

She shakes her head to Wrenn with a small frown.  "Why would it?  If I understand correctly you sought to buy her out correct?  If there's a proper legal contract enslavement is an accepted practice of all the great powers on either side of the sea.  Feelings have very little to do with the issue."
Griswold Ortmann
 Player, 261 posts
 Half-Elf
 Knight Errant
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 19:29
The Caged Bird
Griswold looked at Wrenn first in surprise, then with awkward guilt.  "But they didn't...haven't.   Chris feared they might, once they learnt of Farrissa's power.  He thought it would be discovered during the competition, which is why he came to me.  I, uh, I guess I didn't explain that very well, huh?"
Wrenn Muernig
 Player, 155 posts
 Gnome Wizard
 HP: 14/14
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 19:44
The Caged Bird
Wrenn reached a hand out in front of him as though snatching something out of the air, "I'll grasp at any straws I can find in this fight. Anything at all that turns the odds in our favor, no matter how slightly. As I said, you're the one who knows what'll work here, I'm just throwing out ideas."
Griswold Ortmann
 Player, 262 posts
 Half-Elf
 Knight Errant
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 20:33
The Caged Bird
Griswold scowls and looks around to make sure no one else noticed Wrenn's words, then leans down to whisper to the Gnome, unusually harshly.  "There are so many things wrong with that, I can barely think where to begin:

"One: the Kilquist's are not on trial here.  Bringing them into it will only make us look desperate at best, slanderous at worst.

"Two: The Ashen Order don't care about Farrissa's treatment.

"Three: it would only add to her motive.

"And four: it would have to be investigated.  That means questions.  Do you really want to expose Farrissa to that?  She's probably so scared that its hard enough for her to focus on what really happened, let alone having to deal with the added pressure of lying about it."

"Just...think about where you are.  This is no place to be discussing perjury!"


He sighs and shakes his head.  "Listen, it's good that you're trying to help, really.  Just be careful what you say.  If anyone hears you - even if we don't act on your ideas - they could undermine anything we do try.  We need work with the truth and only the truth.  Besides, it sounds like Arizima has a plan brewing."  The half elf stands up and looks at her questioningly.  "One which does not involve lying to my peers and all of Maypole, I hope?"

This message was last edited by the player at 20:37, Tue 27 Feb 2018.

Arizima
 Player, 133 posts
 Human Warlock
 HP: 24/24 AC: 14 PP: 13
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 21:35
The Caged Bird
Arizima looks between Griswold and Wrenn with a sigh.  "No direct lies of any kind no.  I think you're a bit too terrified of attacking the opposition's position however so I doubt you'll enjoy it.  Unavoidable as it will be unless you want to watch this woman's head roll at best or be turned into a living weapon for the Ashen Order at worst." 

She gives the stage a thoughtful glance.  "It's a rather simple plan on the whole.  I'll approach and request to be heard as a witness worried that not all evidence has been presented.  Although I may not be favored in your courts the perception of my standing combined with the crowd's support of their champions should give me the chance to speak at least.  I'll be honest.  I'll tell everyone what we saw, lament that it contradicts the word of nobility known to be just and true and acquiesce that perhaps he wasn't under control after all.  I won't make any accusations merely let the matter hang.  After that if everything has gone well I'll give the Viscount and his son a chance to save face, step away, and quash any unfortunate rumors that could rise from my testimony.  Finally still assuming everything has gone roughly to plan I'll point out that all those that fought to the end of the contest have earned the right per the words of a Knight of the Rose and the decree of your Emperor to find a new home in the Adventurer's guild appealing to a higher authority than the Viscount or the Ashen Order to undermine any remaining attempts to claim our sin-eater still.  Ultimately the whole plan could almost be seen as a bit of theater.  We're not here to win the love of the Order or the Viscount.  We're here to win the love of the crowd as their champions and subtly force the issue."

She looks back to Griswold finally with a shrug.  "It likely won't go as smoothly as that of course.  I'm Dunnothi and an arcanist. Many of your countrymen frown on both.  I'll likely need at least one character witness to prevent them from claiming I'm somehow the mastermind of all the evil that's befallen the contestants.  I doubt that the Order wouldn't jump at chance to see me beheaded as well, and it's a very real risk.  There could be other complications we're not yet aware of as well.  I find I'm adaptable in a crisis however and I'm willing to take the risk if you like."
Griswold Ortmann
 Player, 263 posts
 Half-Elf
 Knight Errant
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 22:50
The Caged Bird
Griswold listened to Arizima's idea intently, his eyes widening with each word.  "I...uh...well it's not exactly...how should I put this..." He paused to organise his thoughts, then quietly blurted out, "I don't see how that helps."

"Spreading doubt over Ronald's mental capacity that way might open the crowd up to discussion amongst themselves, but that's far from the unification they'd need to openly challenge a Grandmaster.

"Also - the Royal invitation to found the adventurer's guild? I'm pretty sure that was only for the winners of the competition.  Even if the other competitors were included, we're still subject to the laws of the land, aren't we?  The Ashen Order could well accept Farrissa as a member of the guild, but still go through with the trial.  Or am I missing something?"

"Look, I am not going to deny that I am well out of my depth here.  I'm sure you are much more experienced in this sort of thing than I am, Arizima and if you think that's the best option that's what we'll do.  But I do know crowds.  Kriegian crowds at least.  They are a mob.  They need to be provoked.  They need something that will spark their imagination or ignite their sense of justice.  Something to give them unity of purpose.  Something big. And I don't think that here-say and conjecture will cut it.


Griswold leans in and whispers.

"In my opinion, we need to focus on the real culprit.  The Kriegian elite will hate us for it.  For the panic it will cause and the weakness it will show, but the public have to know that this Kalaryl woman was really behind it all.  And there's only one group here that can condemn a Rose and be taken seriously.  One of their own.

"We need to get out there, make the declaration and amid the hysteria and condemnation, suggest they ask a Rose, if they doubt us.  Then when one or more is called and questioned, the truth will out."

"But, I'll understand if you think that's too extreme.  I'll support your attempt, Arizima, even if you overvalue my influence here.  My reputation is not as sterling as you seem to believe.  Now if a Watcher was here, if Kharash were here, then we'd be talking.  Where is the big lug anyway?  Oh, and what about you Eri?
The half-elf reaches out and taps the distracted woman on her shoulder.  What do you think?  As someone not so closely tied to the events, you might have a fresh perspective."

This message was last edited by the player at 22:56, Tue 27 Feb 2018.

Arizima
 Player, 134 posts
 Human Warlock
 HP: 24/24 AC: 14 PP: 13
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 23:16
The Caged Bird
Arizima stares at him for a long moment looking quietly frustrated.  "That's... not the point.  The implication is not that Roland is for lack of a better term stupid.  The implication is that he's responsible for raising the dead and attacking the living.  If he is not under the control of a spirit and the dead were walking at his command...  Nobility can not afford to let such implications fester or risk the mob as you claimed."

"As for the question of membership... The Rose Sinofel suggested that the others were invited to train with the guild and claim membership as well.  The implication seemed to be that they wouldn't hold the same station as ourselves but that membership was still open."


"As for this Kalaryl... if I wanted to see this woman burn then I would simply accuse her of being in league with her in the aftermath of the initial claim.  I see no reason to expect the trial to be remotely fair.  To be blunt considering my treatment since I've come to your lands you're not going to invite the mob to calls for justice on behalf of someone who's seen as having any sort of connection to the arcane.  She's already guilty by any sort of association."  She shrugs.  "I confess I'm a foreigner here however and don't have the same stake in this that you seem to.  For all I know the woman is actually guilty of whatever she's truly to be tried for."
Griswold Ortmann
 Player, 264 posts
 Half-Elf
 Knight Errant
Wed 28 Feb 2018
at 00:29
The Caged Bird
Griswold takes a moment to himself mumbling about this probably being another one of those 'paranoia' moments, before lifting his head back up and smiling at Arizima.

"I understood what you meant about Roland, I just think the way that you suggest presenting your point lacks...grandeur.  The people will see it more like the musing of an intellectual than an actual proposal.  A 'what if' scenario, that is easily rebuffed if not further supported.  And, forgive me Apricot, but I don't think that will be enough.  Not unless you press the point.  You would need to fight for it because Farrissa is guilty until proven innocent and, if you don't, a little doubt will not save her."

He sighs and nods.  "You're right about Kalaryl.  Aside from her, I do have one more suggestion that just occurred to me.

"Do you remember when we first saw Farrissa in the old Knighthold? As I recall, she was already unconscious.  Unconscious and wearing her collar.  From what I've been hearing about spell-casting and sin-eaters, those two details seem important.

"If Farrissa's magic was affecting Ronald, how was she still able to sustain it whilst she was unconscious?  Don't spells require a certain amount of focus to maintain?  And isn't her collar meant to stymie a sin-eater's power?  If so, how then could she have cast anything to being with?  Which raises another point: every story I have heard about sin-eaters tells of their terribly destructive power.  Power that is beyond their control.
 Admittedly I know very little about them, but I've yet to hear a tale of one doing anything but blowing things up.  Can their powers even be used to manipulate minds and animate the dead?"

The knight shrugs.

"Well, even if my doubts are sound, they probably wouldn't be enough to rally public opinion.  Revealing them properly would be slow and boring.  I guess the only way they would really help would be if we could, say get Grandmaster Gustav himself to confirm them.  Thereby admitting Farrissa's innocence.  It would be a long shot.  Especially as there's so little we know about sin-eaters.  But we could be sure at least that the Grandmaster would have to answer truthfully.  There's more than enough people here that do know about these things to call him out on any lies."

"Anyway, if you think this is also a bad plan and if no one else has any other proposals, let's try yours."


Griswold grinned.  Doing something was better than doing nothing and he'd learnt that there were times when he should trust his companions more than himself.

This message was last edited by the player at 00:35, Wed 28 Feb 2018.

Eri Sato
 Player, 42 posts
Wed 28 Feb 2018
at 13:20
The Caged Bird
Eri stiffens as Griswold pokes her shoulder. She was only paying half attention, still focused on pick pockets, and the sudden contact startled her. What's more, suddenly being asked to weigh in on something of this magnitude put her on edge. Griswold had given her details of the case of course, but it was far different from actually being there. She looks up and tucks her black hair behind her ear. I confess, not knowing the situation as fully as the rest of you, any ideas of mine would only prove a distraction. I know from experience though that when a crowd gets riled, nothing will change their minds. Her face goes cold at this, eyes turning hard. She continues with bitterness in her voice. Turning them in your favor before it's too late is probably the only course of action if you want to do this legally. My instincts are of a less direct variety. I can be quiet when I wish. If it comes to it perhaps I can help out in a more...clandestine way, if the woman needs...freeing. Especially since it would not be linked back to you, with me as new as I am. she says everything quietly, lest anyone overhear.

ooc: Thanks for the clarification Gris! It's quite helpful! :)

This message was last edited by the player at 13:24, Wed 28 Feb 2018.

Wrenn Muernig
 Player, 156 posts
 Gnome Wizard
 HP: 14/14
Wed 28 Feb 2018
at 14:52
Re: The Caged Bird
Eri Sato:
If it comes to it perhaps I can help out in a more...clandestine way, if the woman needs...freeing. Especially since it would not be linked back to you, with me as new as I am.


Wrenn moved just a little bit closer to his new best friend. He always knew Eri was made of the finest stuff.
Arizima
 Player, 135 posts
 Human Warlock
 HP: 24/24 AC: 14 PP: 13
Wed 28 Feb 2018
at 15:06
Re: The Caged Bird
Arizima considers Griswold carefully.  "Ultimately you seem to have the largest personal stake in this.  We can go with whatever plan you prefer I suppose.  Or a melding of them if you prefer."

She glances toward Eri with a tilt of her head.  "That's always an option.  In the worst case we could attempt that and try and send her somewhere far from the reach of the order.  The Great Houses are always eager to extend their protection and patronage to unique talents.  Anything that aids them in the great game."
Wrenn Muernig
 Player, 157 posts
 Gnome Wizard
 HP: 14/14
Wed 28 Feb 2018
at 15:17
Re: The Caged Bird
Wrenn smiled up at Arizima. Eri and Ari, two of the most magnificent women he'd ever met.
Eri Sato
 Player, 43 posts
Sat 3 Mar 2018
at 15:00
Re: The Caged Bird
ooc: Hahahahahaha! You're so funny Wrenn!

Eri is pleased her idea is not immediately thrown out. Of course a sudden stab of fear hits her that they might actually take her up on the offer. Hopefully she would be as quiet as she claimed should that happen. "The winds blow the sails the best at harbor," the saying went, "but on open water nothing is certain." A pretty way of saying you never knew when things could go wrong.

She turns to Griswold expectantly, waiting his answer, then notices Wrenn's smile and returns it with one of her own, a bit perplexed why he was looking at her like that.
Lady Inara
 NPC, 16 posts
Mon 5 Mar 2018
at 21:07
Re: The Caged Bird
As you discuss, you notice that Lady Inara has spotted you. A nervous, almost panicked expression crosses her face. She peels away discreetly, approaching your group with a wariness that she has not yet shown before. It is at odds with the regal and demanding mannerisms she displayed before. She places her hand on Griswold's shoulder and speaks in a conspiratorial tone. "You must leave. All of you. Before the Grand Inquisitor realizes you've come or the trap will be set. Gods forgive me, I didn't think it would go this far," she says. Her words are clipped and her voice hoarse, her face pained as if it hurts her to speak. She begins to tr and weakly push your group members away.
Griswold Ortmann
 Player, 265 posts
 Half-Elf
 Knight Errant
Wed 7 Mar 2018
at 23:51
Re: The Caged Bird
Griswold pulls away from the Lady's touch, suspicion in his eyes.  He then casts a confused and questioning look at Arizima, unsure what to make of the situation, but not before he's moved to put a few heads between him and Gustav.
Wrenn Muernig
 Player, 158 posts
 Gnome Wizard
 HP: 14/14
Thu 8 Mar 2018
at 00:00
Re: The Caged Bird
Wrenn stands with confusion clear on his face, "Trap for who?"
Arizima
 Player, 136 posts
 Human Warlock
 HP: 24/24 AC: 14 PP: 13
Thu 8 Mar 2018
at 00:10
Re: The Caged Bird
Arizima looks toward Lady Inara with a tilted head and curious expression before glancing toward Griswold and finally toward Wrenn.  "Us of course.  It would hardly be the first time I've seen authority plot the demise of those that are inconvenient to it."  She bites back any further jabs aimed at Kriegan justice for the moment and looks toward Griswold.  "I suppose she could be lying but I can't say I'm overly surprised.  Those guards the other day were quite confident they were going to get their chance to display Wrenn's head and mine own to the crowd.  Perhaps they were not posturing at all but were actually overzealous, showing their hand early.  To be fair she could be acting on behalf of the order to eliminate any dissension before the trial starts as well.  I'm not sure why though.  If you think my own plan will not work and don't have a great deal of confidence in your own it's likely we couldn't do much more than watch as the sentence was passed anyway."