OOC: Discussion: Ritual Magic Play.   Posted by Control.Group: 0
Control
 GM, 166 posts
Mon 8 May 2017
at 08:40
Re: 00.00: Ritual Magic Play
First, I made a mistake in the accounting.

A Sticky Condition is two costs, not one.  So the total ritual requires three costs.

Gordon:
Sounds good.  Although I envisioned it different (I kind of pictured him as a ver fast Spider Man or Neo), but the result is the same.


Ah.  I assumed it was just like it when you wrote It will allow the drinker to move at great speed through spaces and/or ignore the effects of obstacles.

<quote>My roll cancelled itself out...22:02, Today: Gordon rolled 0 using 4 Fudge dice with rolls of 1, -1, 0, 0.  Potion Roll</quot>

So...
Gordon: Focus(+2) + 4dF(+0) = Effort(+2) versus Target(+5)
You failed to make the target.  The GM chooses all costs.

I suggest the following complications:
  • Altered Effect: Insubstantial
    Since you didn't want insubstantial.... it's easy enough to say that's how this manifests...  Just like how it manifested for Dresden & Susan... Bob didn't necessarily tell that part, did he?
  • Component: Hair of a Cheetah
    You need something for all the senses.  For the elements Gordon has on-hand, he needs the hair of a cheetah, to make it all complete.   Other animals might do, but the Cheetah really fits with his other ingredients.
  • Drawback: Time-Dilations after-effect
    Since we're at it...  After the effects of the potion proper wear off, whoever imbibes of the potion will take on a fleeting condition Time-Dilations where they have the perception of time moving really slow and/or really fast.  This lasts for one scene or until actively countered somehow. The GM and others can, of course, invoke this condition for their amusement or purposes.


How do those sounds?

Given that we are on RPOL, and there is a great possibility of huge-ass delays while trying to RP out some of the component requirement sub-quests...  I think it's reasonable to accept the player providing a story, even if it's only a couple of paragraphs, of how they got the item...

If it's a big enough ritual and a big enough effect, we may require a scene to acquire the component... but it needn't be all the time.  So long as we get a story out of it, I'm cool.

This message was last edited by the GM at 08:43, Mon 08 May 2017.

Gordon
 Wizard of Oz, 62 posts
 Psychiatrist/Psychomancer
 White Counsel Wizard
Mon 8 May 2017
at 20:49
Re: 00.00: Ritual Magic Play
Works for me.  A question though.... Would there be a time where Intellect would be a better Approach?  Perhaps if the ritual is designed to gather information or create something that bolsters cleverness?

Or could I use Intellect to mitigate a complication?  "Do to the complexity of the ritual, Gordon heavily researched variances that would effect the outcome."

heh...or would that be the excuse I use to get to use Intellect instead of Focus?
Control
 GM, 172 posts
Tue 9 May 2017
at 08:00
Intelligence...
Gordon:
Would there be a time where Intellect would be a better Approach?


I won't rule it out entirely...   But it does seem like a lesser used approach for it.

  • Flair - When it's important that the ritual is performed in a showy fashion... perhaps to get other participants engaged...
  • Focus - Default, to keep track of everything
  • Force - I have difficulty applying this Approach to ritual work.
  • Guile - Doing it sneakily, or again, when negotiating with a summoned entity?
  • Haste - Doing it quickly... but accurately...
  • Intellect - I have difficulty applying this Approach to ritual work, too.



quote:
Or could I use Intellect to mitigate a complication?  "Due to the complexity of the ritual, Gordon heavily researched variances that would effect the outcome."


The costs are the costs.  You can't get out of those.  You can certainly invoke an Aspect to shift the success of the role, allowing you to choose some easier options... perhaps Indebted, for instance.   Because being indebted to a God is always easier, right?

But pure intelligence?  I don't see that working to negate a cost.

Now... that being said, his intelligence might certainly factor into how easy it is to meet some of the cost requirements (ie... the museum of natural history has a couple of stuffed and mounted cheetahs...  Perhaps a confrontation with a live one isn't necessary!)

This message was last edited by the GM at 09:12, Tue 09 May 2017.

Control
 GM, 174 posts
Tue 9 May 2017
at 08:23
Inflicting or Healing a Lasting Condition
Not a lot out there on ritual attacks in DFA.  But there is one about inflicting Night Terrors that offered some insights.

So, my take on this is thus:

The amount of stress applied during an attack is the amount of the attack minus the amount of the defense.    A best-case scenario, with no add-ons is that someone rolls 4dF(+4) with their strongest Approach (+3) and the defender utterly botches their defense (ie 4dF(-4) + Haste(+0)).   This deals +11 damage.

In this situation, most mortals will be forced to take on a either Imperiled (to negate four stress of this attack) or doomed (to negate six).  Possibly both!

So, since I'm posting this because of a discussion with Agnes... We're going to say that Agnes' goal is to remove a lasting consequence.

Although she is definitely trying to help the person who's, say, bleeding out, the body doesn't know this: it just know's it's being forced to change by an outside factor.  It will resist, even though it probably shouldn't.


We start with this:
GoalsTargetCosts
Remove the lasting condition+4 target threshold3 costs

But if the defense roll succeeds... well, this effect won't make it.


Agnes wants to:
GoalsTargetCosts
Remove the lasting condition+4 target threshold3 costs
Overcome the stress-track+6 target threshold3 costs
Total Cost:+10 target6 costs

Better.    But if the defense succeeds in a best-case scenario (if the defender rolls 4dF(+4) + Best Approach(+3) == Defense(+7)) then the stress-track (6) isn't overcome, and the lasting condition isn't applied.

So we need to boost the power even more to accommodate the contingency that the defender might actually rally enough defense to fight this off...

Agnes wants to:
GoalsTargetCosts
Remove the lasting condition+4 target threshold3 costs
Overcome the stress-track+6 target threshold3 costs
Overcome rolled defense (max possible +7)+7 target threshold4 costs
Total Cost:+17 target10 costs

Therefore, to guarantee the application or removal of a lasting condition with ritual magic, it will have a target of +17, and it will require ten costs.

Yeah, that sounds pretty damned difficult.

  • If Agnes succeeds with style, she chooses all of the costs.
  • If Agnes succeeds, she chooses all but one cost.  I choose the other.
  • If Agnes ties, she and I take turns choosing costs, I start
  • If Agnes fails, I chooses all costs.


In DFA, once all the costs are paid, the ritual is held until the scene where the player decides to use it...    To keep it consistent with the Dresden Files world, I prefer that there is some sort of container for it (a potion, a sutra, a keyword...) but this can be a strictly narrative conceit.


Side Note:
These numbers may change, depending on the mantle involved.... Some have modified conditions, which increase their stress-capacity.   Also, it's possible that in the given scene the target's stress-track is full... and any additional attack action (damage or healing) can bypass that... That would impact the target and costs involved.  But since this ritual may be performed well in advance, you might not know what you're up against until it's time to use the ritual effect.

Side Note 2:
If one wanted to simply start recovery (instead of utterly removing the condition), they'd simply need to overcome an obstacle... as noted in the mechanics listing for Imperiled or Doomed.

This message was last edited by the GM at 16:44, Tue 09 May 2017.

Gordon
 Wizard of Oz, 63 posts
 Psychiatrist/Psychomancer
 White Counsel Wizard
Tue 9 May 2017
at 16:52
Inflicting or Healing a Lasting Condition
Ok...so there will always be costs, but we can still use our mantels and aspects to help make the target?

i.e Gordon tries to make a heavy sleeping potion, since it's psychomancy he uses his mantel to give him a +2 bonus (or something).
Control
 GM, 176 posts
Tue 9 May 2017
at 17:22
Inflicting or Healing a Lasting Condition
quote:
Ok...so there will always be costs, but we can still use our mantels and aspects to help make the target?

i.e Gordon tries to make a heavy sleeping potion, since it's psychomancy he uses his mantel to give him a +2 bonus (or something).


Sort of.

The mantle is a container to hold the conditions and stunts that define what the character can do.  In itself, it isn't used.   But the stunts and conditions it contains might be used in such a manner.

Gordon has the stunt "Ritual Specialist: Psychomancy."  It gives a +1 to the roll for ritual psychomancy... So that would add +1 to whatever he rolls on the Ritual roll...

And, the character Aspects can be so used. Seattle's Only Practicing Psychomancer Psychiatrist could be invoked to give you a +2 to the roll.   Of course, that will cost you a fate point.

If we could skew the potion he'd made earlier so it fit under the Psychomancy banner, he might have gotten:

Gordon:
+0 4dF(+0)
+2 Focus(+2)
+1 Ritual Specialist: Psychomancy
+2 Aspect Invoke: Seattle's Only Practicing Psychomancer Psychiatrist
===
+5 Total versus +5 target

That would have resulted in me picking two costs, you picking one...

Would that have been worth it?

Maybe.
Agnes
 Warden, 53 posts
Thu 11 May 2017
at 00:33
Inflicting or Healing a Lasting Condition

So, there is a narrative concept that ritual magic is an important part of having an effective wizard character.

Gordon's character is a specialist in rituals. it looks like that an average result by a specialist with a mid-range potion and a mid-range roll does not have a useful result.  Narratively this doesn't make sense.   Ritual magic is depicted as generally reliable.

But it appears that the game mechanics do not support this.

How do you want to handle this?  Do you want ritual magic to effectively not exist as a mechanic?   Do you want to make it more reliable?
Control
 GM, 178 posts
Thu 11 May 2017
at 02:35
Re: Inflicting or Healing a Lasting Condition
Gordon's character is a specialist in psychomantic rituals, only.

I feel that this ritual system is a lot more effective and likely to be used in-game than the ritual system in DFRPG.

quote:
it looks like that an average result by a specialist with a mid-range potion and a mid-range roll does not have a useful result.  Narratively this doesn't make sense.   Ritual magic is depicted as generally reliable.   But it appears that the game mechanics do not support this.


Why do you believe that Gordon accomplishing his intention (the creation of the potion) was not a useful result?    How do you come to the impression that ritual magic is not reliable?

I don't understand your apprehensions.  Please help me understand.

This message was last edited by the GM at 03:41, Thu 11 May 2017.

Agnes
 Warden, 54 posts
Thu 11 May 2017
at 10:54
Re: Inflicting or Healing a Lasting Condition
I think the cost system is too severe.  A tool that you cannot predict is unreliable.

Imagine you bake a cake.  You have a recipe, you follow it.  Despite having made cakes for years, your cakes regularly have ingredients and flavors your don't intent for them to have.    On average, they have two ingredients and you have no idea what they are.  Could be cinnamon.  Could be motor oil.  Could be a laxative.   Do you eat the cake?   Would you give the cake to others?

Probably not.

Would you bake a cake if, in order for it to succeed, you would be indebted to Gordon Ramsey?

Would you bake a cake if, in order for it to succeed, you might miss work and be fired?

This message was last edited by the player at 11:06, Thu 11 May 2017.

Control
 GM, 179 posts
Thu 11 May 2017
at 18:34
Re: Inflicting or Healing a Lasting Condition
quote:
I think the cost system is too severe.  A tool that you cannot predict is unreliable.


I agree.  A tool you cannot predict is unreliable.

It really is up to the caster to create enough situational Aspects that she can invoke to overcome the target difficulty.   With enough preparation, she can ensure that she chooses all the costs associated with the ritual.   If one goes into a ritual unprepared, one may take on costs and narrative complications that one hadn't intended or prepared for.  And that is reflected by the GM choosing some of the costs.

Let's run Gordon through his potion again.  It's Target(+5) and will take three costs.  Gordon isn't hurried, so he takes the time to create some situational Aspects to help him.
  • Gordon rolls Intellect and succeeds with style to create WELL-RESEARCHED POTION.
  • Gordon rolls Focus and succeeds to create PREPARED RITUAL SPACE.
  • Gordon rolls Focus and succeeds to create CENTERED, GROUNDED, BALANCED.


This gives him a potential of +8 Aspects he can invoke if needed.  He might still botch the dice-roll, but with +8 in invokes, he'll succeed.  He just won't succeed with style.

Gordon rolled and got 4dF(+0) + Focus(+2) vs Target(+5).  He chooses to invoke all of the situation Aspects he created giving him +8 to his roll, giving him a Success with Style on the Ritual roll.  He may assign all of the costs to the ritual.
Agnes
 Warden, 55 posts
Sat 13 May 2017
at 17:48
Re: Inflicting or Healing a Lasting Condition

If you succeed with style can you decide that you have no costs?

Or will the spell still have significant weaknesses through the cost system regardless of the level of success?   If so, I'm not sure how much better to succeed with style.   Even if you pick your poison, it's still poison.
Control
 GM, 184 posts
Sat 13 May 2017
at 19:58
Re: Inflicting or Healing a Lasting Condition
The initial Rituals roll only defines the costs.  Kind of like looking up a recipe.  If you (the player or caster) don't like the costs... don't fulfill them.

However, if you decide to use the full-on ritual mechanics, costs are unavoidable.   That is the trade-off for calling more power or more complexity than your character can generate on the spot.

To use your cake metaphor... when you bake a cake--regardless of how it turns out, you still use up ingredients, use up energy to power the oven, spend time to actually bake the cake, and once it's done, you'll still need to clean up the dishes.

Why should a ritual spell be any different?

Imagine how the Red King's ritual would have gone if there were no costs?  He wouldn't have needed to sacrifice thousands of people, wouldn't have had to kidnap the youngest family member of McCoy's bloodline, and wouldn't have had to go to Chichen Itza to perform the final sacrifice.    Boiling it down to one roll with no associated requirements takes away any drama associated with the ritual.

This message was last edited by the GM at 23:20, Sat 13 May 2017.

Control
 GM, 185 posts
Sat 13 May 2017
at 19:58
Re: Inflicting or Healing a Lasting Condition
I wonder if perhaps you're under the misapprehension that you must use Ritual mechanics all the time.  This is not so.

If the effect you want can be easily modeled by the standard results of the game actions (Attack, Defend, Overcome and Create Advantage), then perhaps it's better to approach it in that manner.

Tracking someone seems like an Overcome action.  Warding a building might be represented by a Create Advantage action. Then you can invoke that Aspect whenever the ward's influence is relevant...

Sometimes, though, the best reflection of your intended effect is described as temporary access to a stunt or imposition of a condition with the desired effect.  Or it's something more powerful than or vastly different from what the character can normally bring to bear.  That's when the ritual mechanics are called for.

This message was last edited by the GM at 00:52, Sun 14 May 2017.

Agnes
 Warden, 56 posts
Sun 14 May 2017
at 01:25
Re: Inflicting or Healing a Lasting Condition
In reply to Control (msg # 18):

I was thinking that I would need to use it more than it seems necessary. It's disappointing that ritual magic is still largely useless.

However, I'm also reflecting that my hopes and plans to make Agnes have a heritage in making interesting artifacts is probably not a good idea.   The game mechanics just don't support artifact creation in a useful way.

So I think I'm just going to have to redo some of her aspects.
Control
 GM, 187 posts
Sun 14 May 2017
at 02:12
Re: Inflicting or Healing a Lasting Condition
I disagree with your opinion that DFA ritual magic is largely useless.

How would you propose to make it less useless?
Agnes
 Warden, 57 posts
Mon 15 May 2017
at 01:27
Re: Inflicting or Healing a Lasting Condition
In reply to Control (msg # 20):

Reserve costs for failures and use something similar to the Fading Suns magic system.

The brass tacks are that target numbers for success are generally higher and rolling is cumulative.  Each roll represents an increment of time spent on the spell.   After too many increments, the caster gets tired and needs to make fatigue checks to continue to roll.  If they fail a fatigue or focus check, then the spell fails.   If someone interrupts the caster, spell fails.

The other time check is that the adversary is continuing to do their thing.  So you have a choice about whether you try to delay and prepare and risk having the enemy move first.

Aspects could be used to grant an additional roll in a given time frame.

Having people help you with the spell would be rewarded by allowing the best roll of the participants to be used.  But then the second person also needs to make their fatigue checks.

I need to play test a couple rounds to figure out what would be a good target number for things that are easy vs medium vs hard vs legendary.    But it would allow for casters to set up minor/medium things ahead of time. It also has the potential for a major spell working be a reasonable plot point (Interrupt the Fomori ritual to summon Sharknado)
Control
 GM, 188 posts
Mon 15 May 2017
at 03:56
Re: Inflicting or Healing a Lasting Condition
Thank-you for sharing.

I am not familiar with the Fading Suns magic system.   What little I remember was focused on specific elements of the the performance of a rite--chanting, dance, gestures...

It pretty much sounds like you want a return to the DFRPG Thaumaturgy system... You encapsulated it pretty well.

I feel that the DFA Rituals approach fosters more little stories and side-quests, requiring a narrative involvement that may actually involve other characters to help in the narrative.  This is more exciting to me than the cumulative generation of points.  It's less abstract, requiring specific actions and specific meta-game impacts.

I don't see how the DFA system prevents "minor/medium" things from being set up ahead of time.   In fact, there don't appear to be any restrictions on how many potions (or sutras, or even just key-word ritual effects) one might set-up ahead of time.

I appreciate your commentary.  But we're going to be sticking with the vanilla DFA Rituals system.  Once we've had a chance to put it through it's paces, we may revise as a table, together.

This message had punctuation tweaked by the GM at 04:30, Mon 15 May 2017.

Agnes
 Warden, 58 posts
Mon 15 May 2017
at 11:56
Re: Inflicting or Healing a Lasting Condition
I know you don't see it.

I don't think my character as written is feasible whether there are so many costs/drawbacks to succeeding in a roll.  As written, it is literally impossible to have a simple potion go as planned.

I don't see how I can have artifact building as a significant part of my character with this system. I will make some revisions to convert Agnes to a more vanilla, mostly evocation character.
Control
 GM, 191 posts
Mon 15 May 2017
at 19:50
Re: Inflicting or Healing a Lasting Condition
I wasn't aware you'd wanted Agnes to focus on making artifacts.   While potentially interesting, the interest I see in it is in the quests to get components, the talking to people to perform research, the fulfilling the requirements.  This is even a staple of classic D&D games!.

You seem to be reading these things as punishment rather than opportunities for roleplaying.  Without them... well, it's strictly a numbers-game.   And that holds no interest for me.
Agnes
 Warden, 59 posts
Mon 15 May 2017
at 22:12
Re: Inflicting or Healing a Lasting Condition

It is in message #6 of Agnes' character creation thread.   It was like 3 paragraphs.  You seemed on board.

I don't mind the consequences.  I mind that they happen *every* time.  With only a limited amount of difference from success or failure.  And that there are so *many* of them.  5 'cost' for a minor potion?

The "strictly a number's game"  suggests that Agnes' reason for making the potion/artifact isn't interesting to you.  The drama of success vs failure with lives on the line.   The drama of fulfilling the requirements isn't enough.   The fact that she might have to ask someone she doesn't like for help--that's not enough?

Why aren't these things enough?

If this is a really a deal breaker, I'l do it.  But I'm trying to warn you that cost system is a very unbalanced and disruptive mechanic.  Please keep that in mind when it does not go the way you think it's going to go.  Or I choose a consequence that you don't like.
Control
 GM, 194 posts
Mon 15 May 2017
at 23:07
Re: Inflicting or Healing a Lasting Condition
Message six of Agnes' character thread talks about recovering Tesla's notes and inventions.   I don't see anything in there about Agnes creating artifacts.   I am okay with Agnes having a life-focusing quest to collect Tesla's inventions.  It's nice color.  It sounds fun.

Are you referring to a specific "minor potion" when you talk of five costs?  Gordon's only cost three...

The term "Consequences" under DFRPG is a punitive Aspect applied to a character when one takes on too much stress.  Under DFA it's simply not used as a term of the mechanics.  A "cost" is what is required to fund a ritual.  A "complication" is the mechanical manifestation of that cost.

I find it really wierd that you provide three conditions for drama associated with a ritual that are precisely what I've been arguing for, myself (even mentioning them in the immediately prior message).
  • "The drama of success vs failure with lives on the line....  (this is the Time Cost)
  • "The fact that she might have to ask someone she doesn't like for help...   Assistanc or indebted)
  • "The drama of fulfilling the requirements... (Special Circumstance or Components)


Fulfilling requirements is precisely what the costs represent.  The only real difference, mechanically, is that rather than the player setting these up before-hand and possibly (possibly not) tagging them to ensure success, the player and/or GM define the complications as a result of a dice-roll. The requirements of the ritual are fulfilled after the ritual "look-up-the-recipe" roll.

If the table feels that the costs are prohibitively expensive, then I suppose the table can discuss on a case-by-case basis.

This message was last edited by the GM at 00:50, Wed 17 May 2017.

Control
 GM, 197 posts
Tue 16 May 2017
at 22:49
Enchanted Items and Artifacts
Please note that the DFA system doesn't have published mechanics for creating enchanted items, let alone artifacts.   That doesn't take enchanted items off the table.  But with the existing mechanics they're kinda limited to use-and-lose items, like potions.

When the book is released and there is an established forum for discussing the system, I'm very interested in getting the developers take on creating Focus items and long-term "rechargeable" enchantments.

I haven't played the system (at all) enough yet to figure out a balanced way of doing it.  And I haven't seen anything online yet to address this.
Control
 GM, 201 posts
Thu 18 May 2017
at 22:36
On Artifact Creation...
Artifacts
Towards developing a way to do it...

I ran across this article during one of my searches for enchanting items under DFA (still a fruitless search).

Adapted from: http://www.evilhat.com/home/no...etual-mojo-machines/
It's a core concept that magical items take energy and that magical energy fades. This is why most items require periodic “maintenance”, as in, the routine infusion of energy from some source.  Items like the Swords of the Cross (and most other items of power, read as "artifacts") don’t count against this limitation, because they are powered by the Almighty who has basically unlimited mojo.

The limited slots thing in DFRPG was a direct result of not wanting to make that maintenance boring and mechanistic.  So, they decided that there’s only so much slots’ worth of stuff the wizard could maintain simultaneously.  Luccio probably had a *lot* of Refinement going just to Item Slots, or the wizard character has assumed the cost another way by taking it as an item of power.


Based on this, I figure a logical way to power artifact-level enchanted items is to link it in to an external power-source...    If there's a Mjolnir out there somewhere, it makes sense that it's funded by Donar (or Odin, or Brokkr & Eitri)...  Someone has to pay for the make and upkeep!

The standard Rituals approach in DFA does have the Costs/Complications built in.  One of those complications is Indebted, which reflects an external power-source (a god, etc) taking on the requirement of contributing power...  in exchange for some sort of favor, requirement, task, etc.  Possibly even a favor at a later date.

I could potentially see a character like a mage-smith creating a bow and entreating Diana, Goddess of the Hunt to help empower the enchantment on it (say +4 shifts to attack).   She might agree... possibly with restrictions (ie, it must be a consecrated hunt--the target defined before-hand to get the benefit).

If she's willing to empower it, the mage-smith would take on several levels of the Indebted Condition.   So, to pay off much of that debt, the mage-smith works it out with Diana that the bow will work as designed so long as it suits Diana's agenda.  Win-win!   The mage-smith is able to get the goddess to fund and empower the enchantment, and it's inferred that the goddess will continue to do so.

Just like the swords of the Cross though, if the enchantment is ever used in a manner that is in direct contravention of the patron's agenda... it becomes de-powered or destroyed.  And, really there may come a time when the goddess simply chooses to stop funding it, and the artifact gets de-powered, destroyed, lost, archived...

Who's to say there haven't been thousands of such items in play for very short-periods all throughout history?   These things shouldn't last forever.

Normally, the patron should not be shouldering the entire cost of the item, unless it is a divinely purposed instrument.  But that's up to the narrative negotiation.  If the patron pays the entire cost of the creation of the item, I don't see how that's different from the patron just giving the someone the enchanted item.

Regular, enchanted items (no god involved)
I'm still mulling this over, trying to figure out a way that fits with the DFA rules...  I'm getting there...

Any ideas?

What are your thoughts on this, so far?
Gordon
 Wizard of Oz, 72 posts
 Psychiatrist/Psychomancer
 White Counsel Wizard
Thu 18 May 2017
at 22:49
On Artifact Creation...
I like it.

As far as non-funded things (like Harry's Force rings), I am not sure.  Perhaps it could be represented in the creation and it is assumed that maintenance occur until they are used in session.  Then they are indebted to the item?  You can't use it again until you remove one 'square' be it through game play (during some downtime while the other characters plan, Harry punches punching bag) or spending a FP before it can be used again (thankfully it still had a little juice left in it) or indicating the character is going to spend time between sessions to recharge it.

My possible muddled explanation comes from not complete understanding of the rules.
Control
 GM, 208 posts
Fri 19 May 2017
at 23:05
Re: On Artifact Creation...
Oh, that sounds really neat!  And it makes a certain kind of sense...  Indebted to the item... The item won't work for you until you charge it, and charging it clears the debt...

That helped me come up with a basic framework for crafting enchanted items.   But there are still questions and changes that need to come.  So, I want your feedback.

Check out the Crafting thread...