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Unanswered Questions.

Posted by engineFor group 0
engine
GM, 50 posts
Thu 20 Jul 2017
at 21:41
  • msg #1

Unanswered Questions

This is a thread for features of the rules that were not officially clarified when the game was supported and now appear as though they never will be. I'll edit this post to hold the questions and any clarifications we can seem to have a consensus on, or options that DMs and players can consider instituting for the games.

I'm referring to things like "This power appears to set up this contradictory or ambiguous situation; how should it be resolved?" rather than things like refinements to the default skill DCs or the way skill challenges work.

Lodestone Lure: If the battlemind is not adjacent to the target during the target's turn, what are the target's options? According to Wizard's customer service, the answer is that the target cannot move at all, unless the end of its movement is in a square adjacent to the battlemind, which could result in complete immobilization of the target.
This message was last edited by the GM at 04:22, Mon 24 July 2017.
engine
GM, 51 posts
Fri 21 Jul 2017
at 14:21
  • msg #2

Unanswered Questions

One that bugs me is Lodestone Lure, from Psionic Power.

On a hit (at range Melee 2), you pull the target 1 square, i.e. adjacent to you. Until the end of your next turn, the target can only move to squares that are adjacent to you. It's augmentable, of course, the primary effect of which is to increase the range to 5 and the pull to 4.

Okay, cool, it's like you use magnetic attraction on the target to pull them over and hold them next to you. Great concept.

The problem is that you can move or be moved or the target could be moved after this power is used, meaning that it's possible that none of the squares into which the target can move on its turn are adjacent to you. In that event, how is the target allowed to move? Or, how could the power be interpreted or adjusted to remove that ambiguity?

(Along those same lines, what if the target is pulled of a ledge or something, and winds up some distance away? Or what if something increases the range of this power, but not the pull?)

(Also, forced movement is optional for the forcer, so you could leave the target where they were.)

I think the intent is that the target wind up next to you at the start of your next turn. Options:
1. If its movement allows it to reach a square adjacent to you, then it can move, ending its movement adjacent to you. That fits the overall intent of the power, I think.

2. If none of the squares around it are squares adjacent to you, then it can't move. That's no different than being immobilized. I don't know if an at-will immobilization is appropriate at level 3.

3. The restriction on its movement only applies as long as you are adjacent to the target. This seems like it would be the cleanest edit to the power, and it seems fair to me. I believe there's some precedent too, as I seem to recall another power that includes the condition "while you are adjacent to the target" in its effect.

Assuming anyone a) ever played a battlemind and b) took this power, how would you handle it? I think I'd vote for 3. I'd expect a player to want it to work like 2, and if they assumed that then I'd give it to them, though I might suggest to them that it's a bit powerful that way, and I might start picking enemies less inconvenienced by immobilization.
GreyGriffin
player, 13 posts
Fri 21 Jul 2017
at 17:46
  • msg #3

Unanswered Questions

Assuming your rules text is verbatim, reading 1 seems to be the most playable.  If the target moves, it must move adjacent to you, but it can also elect not to move.

This does raise some issues if you manage to move out of range of its movement (for instance, riding the monk suplex railroad through a 5x5 corridor.)
LonePaladin
player, 20 posts
Sat 22 Jul 2017
at 03:19
  • msg #4

Unanswered Questions

To help out, here's the full text, according to both the patched Character Builder and the 4e kit in Hero Lab. (I couldn't add indenting without making the table needlessly complex.)

Lodestone LureBattlemind Attack 3
As you raise your weapon, a foe lurches toward you against its will.
At-Will • Augmentable, Psionic, Weapon
Standard ActionMelee 2
Target: One creature
Attack: Constitution vs. Will
Hit: Consitution modifier damage, and you must pull the target 1 square. Until the end of your next turn, the target can move only to squares that are adjacent to you.
Augment 1
Attack Type: Melee 5
Hit: As above, but you must pull the target 4 squares.
Augment 2
Attack Type: Melee 5
Hit: 1[W] + Constitution modifier damage, and you must pull the target 4 squares and knock it prone. Until the end of your next turn, the target can move only to squares that are adjacent to you.

In a normal grapple, you can use forced movement to break it -- if either the target or the grappler is moved so that the target's no longer within the grappler's reach, then the grapple ends. In this case, it would be like pulling magnets apart; once you separate them, you can usually keep them apart.

I would go with Option 3.
Godzfirefly
player, 16 posts
Sat 22 Jul 2017
at 06:23
  • msg #5

Unanswered Questions

Apparently, WotC Customer Service has answered this question before, and their answer was #1.

https://forum.rpg.net/showthre...-Lure-Question/page2

largosama:
I start out like like this (P = Player, M = Monster, X = Space

XPXM

I hit with Lodestone Lure. I opt to push 0. M cannot move unless that move will take it into a square adjacent to me. As my move action, I shift back one:

PXXM

Since M can't move into a space adjacent to me with its first square of movement (barring teleportation of course as Tatro said), M can't move. So, it looks like it's a level 3 at will Reach 2 immobilization power that takes up your standard and movement actions. That's EXTRAORDINARILY powerful when going up against strong melee creatures, especially strong melee bosses.


largosama:
I just spoke with WOTC Customer Service about this power since it's not clear what it should be. Their ruling is that in my example, the monster CAN still move, as long as every move brings it closer to me and, if at all possible, it must make every effort to end its turn adjacent to me.

engine
GM, 54 posts
Mon 24 Jul 2017
at 04:19
  • msg #6

Unanswered Questions

In reply to Godzfirefly (msg # 5):

Thanks. It didn't occur to me to google it, because I was only looking in the update file and FAQ I have.

I guess that's equivalent to option 1 though the "make every effort" wording is troublesome.

I won't play it that way and I won't hold anyone to playing it that way - which I doubt will ever matter. I seem to recall that customer support was known for giving poorly considered answers. But I'll put it up as "the answer."
Godzfirefly
player, 17 posts
Tue 25 Jul 2017
at 06:07
  • msg #7

Unanswered Questions

In reply to engine (msg # 6):

Honestly, if if I were the DM and it came up in my game, I wouldn't even consider Option 2 as an option.  It is super outside the obvious RAI, and it doesn't really make sense in the RAW.  That feels more like a munchkin trying to twist the rules, and it only really works if you accept the Ben Kenobi school of thought...it's true, from a certain point of view...

Indeed, in the forum I linked to there's a couple people who phrased my opinion in a much ruder way than I'd ever consider...
This message was last edited by the player at 06:08, Tue 25 July 2017.
engine
GM, 126 posts
Tue 13 Nov 2018
at 21:26
  • msg #8

Unanswered Questions

I thought I read once that if a ritual caster has mastered a ritual, that they can write it into a ritual book, even if they don't have a copy to work from. So, if the caster ever lost their book, they wouldn't have to find each of their rituals again, although they'd have to pay for them again.

But I'm not finding that anywhere. Where the PHB talks about creating a ritual book, it says

"You can create a new ritual book by copying an existing one."

But then it says:

"When you create a ritual book or copy a ritual into an existing book"

That implies that there's a way to create a ritual book without copying an existing one. But I don't see how to just "create" one without copying from someplace else.

Edit: thinking about it more, I think both wordings are assuming copying: either copying into a blank book (thereby creating it) or into an existing book (onto blank pages). So, there's no way to just create a ritual book without an existing copy. Which, since there's no provision for creating brand new rituals shouldn't really matter, but I was hoping there was a way for a wizard to create a ritual book of rituals they have mastered if, say, they lose their spellbook far from civilization, where they can't just buy new books.
This message was last edited by the GM at 22:10, Tue 13 Nov 2018.
cooneydad
player, 11 posts
Tue 13 Nov 2018
at 22:44
  • msg #9

Re: Unanswered Questions

engine:
I thought I read once that if a ritual caster has mastered a ritual, that they can write it into a ritual book, even if they don't have a copy to work from. So, if the caster ever lost their book, they wouldn't have to find each of their rituals again, although they'd have to pay for them again.


I have never heard that before. As you alluded, the Ritual Book is like the new spellbook in the way it is worked. You could house rule the above if you were generous :-)

But I'm not finding that anywhere. Where the PHB talks about creating a ritual book, it says


quote:
That implies that there's a way to create a ritual book without copying an existing one. But I don't see how to just "create" one without copying from someplace else.


You copy them from ritual scrolls.

quote:
Edit: thinking about it more, I think both wordings are assuming copying: either copying into a blank book (thereby creating it) or into an existing book (onto blank pages). So, there's no way to just create a ritual book without an existing copy. Which, since there's no provision for creating brand new rituals shouldn't really matter, but I was hoping there was a way for a wizard to create a ritual book of rituals they have mastered if, say, they lose their spellbook far from civilization, where they can't just buy new books.


Are there no rules for creating rituals? That's interesting, I would have assumed there would be. I'll have to look that up later.
engine
GM, 127 posts
Tue 13 Nov 2018
at 22:47
  • msg #10

Re: Unanswered Questions

cooneydad:
Are there no rules for creating rituals? That's interesting, I would have assumed there would be. I'll have to look that up later.

Yeah, in thinking about it that does sound like an omission, but I'm also glad for it. That would send things down the road of making casters far too powerful again. It suits my view of the D&D world as one peppered with forgotten knowledge, if all existing rituals are merely copies of copies of copies going back to a forgotten age.
cooneydad
player, 12 posts
Wed 21 Nov 2018
at 21:50
  • msg #11

Re: Unanswered Questions

Question for everyone: what do you think is the best "skills class" in 4e?
engine
GM, 128 posts
Wed 21 Nov 2018
at 22:16
  • msg #12

Re: Unanswered Questions

cooneydad:
Question for everyone: what do you think is the best "skills class" in 4e?

I've actually looked into the somewhat extensively.

Bards win for most class skills at 14. Since they get a bonus on untrained skills, and want to focus on Charisma (which is key for 4 of 16 skills, second only to Wisdom) and don't necessarily need heavy armor, they start out with good numbers on a lot of skills. They start with 5, with Arcana automatically.

Vampires come in second at 11 class skills for some reason. They start with 4, with none automatically.

Then it's monks, rogues and sorcerers at 10. Monks and sorcerers start with 4. Sorcerers get Arcana automatically, but since they don't need Intelligence it won't be a great skill for them. Rogues have the highest starting number at 6, since they pick 4 on top of Stealth and Thievery.

Humans and eladrin both start with an extra skill, and both could be good rogues or good bards, so one should consider that.

Other things to consider:
All controllers have Insight as a class skill, and none have Streetwise or Thievery.
All defenders have Endurance and Intimidate as class skills and none have Acrobatics, Stealth or Thievery.
All leaders have Heal as a class skill, and none of them have Stealth.
There's no skill that all strikers have but 8 out of 9 (all but the sorcerer) have Acrobatics and 8 out of 9 (all but the warlock) have Athletics. Put another way, as many strikers have both Acrobatics and Athletics as there are classes in each of the other roles.

18 of 26 classes have Athletics.
6 of 16 classes have Stealth.

Edit: Some subclasses like the Songblade might have slightly different skills from their base class.
This message was last edited by the GM at 22:28, Wed 21 Nov 2018.
Uringizel
player, 2 posts
Tue 9 Feb 2021
at 16:10
  • msg #13

Re: Unanswered Questions

A question: In context of running a 4e game here on RPOL, how are you handling immediate interrupt? They can be handled ok in the table, but with asynchronous posting here, I dont know... how do you guys do / have been doing this?
jkeogh
player, 22 posts
Tue 9 Feb 2021
at 16:14
  • msg #14

Re: Unanswered Questions

It's been a while since I've gotten to use one, but I think the best policy is that if you have one, be sure to let your GM know when and how you might want to use it in a combat ahead of time and in notes to the GM for each round you can add an "if/then" statement.

But it's definitely tricky :)
engine
GM, 136 posts
Tue 9 Feb 2021
at 16:32
  • msg #15

Re: Unanswered Questions

In reply to Uringizel (msg # 13):

Let people know when one is in play and might happen, and supply the information needed for someone to take it into account.

The most common interrupts are opportunity attacks. I post the basic attack roll and damage of monsters, so players can roll for opportunity attacks they take. I try to get the players to do the same for me.

Combat challenge is another common interrupt, and again it's important to know the fighter's attack roll and damage.
Uringizel
player, 3 posts
Tue 9 Feb 2021
at 16:56
  • msg #16

Re: Unanswered Questions

Ah, I hadn't considered If/Then statement. So the PC having an interrupting ability should be prepared to have it 'just in case' - and attach necessary rolls in their post - even if the interrupt doesn't come into play. (Did I get it right?)

Thanks guys, good insights from you.
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