Letting potential players know they didn't make the cut #2
Transcript of previous version before things got heated:
LissaAzules
I have experience on both sides of this equation and am curious about:
1) Do you think DMs/GMs have any obligation to inform players why they weren't chosen (or even that they weren't)?
2) What experiences (good or bad) have you had being told you/your character wasn't accepted to a game?
3) How have/do you handle letting potential players know you selected someone else?
Sir Swindle
"I'm sorry you were not added to the game at this time."
That was the message I sent last time I ran a game.
They aren't under an obligation to anyone. But it is certainly polite.
I've only gotten pushback one time from someone. He litterally said "Let's put making sense aside." During a discussion about his character. So I wrote him off and stopped talking to him. He was mad when I added other players. But fuck'em.
Window Watcher
You might not be obligated, but I certainly think it'd be polite.
At the very least, letting them know (even without an explanation) doesn't leave them hanging, waiting for a reply. Not like it takes much of your time.
Telling them "sorry, we're just full at the moment" is easier on their nerves. Maybe they can retry later.
If applicable, could let them know what would need to change to let them in.
If they're just a troublesome applicant, can tell them "sorry, this isn't going to work out," and if they continue pestering, ignore them.
This probably depends on the nature of the game, and workload, but: When I have the amount of players I want, I don't bar others for joining, I just stop actively advertising. (Not to say people automatically get in.)
I've been in the situation of "sorry, we're full" only to later see another character added, haha. (Did get in later though.)
Advisor
Yeah so far what the others have said I agree with:
1) There isn't an obligation to inform, but it is polite to at least say you didn't get in. Anything beyond that is nice but not needed. In a new game situation there are probably quite a few RTJs and it's understandable for the DM to not give individual responses to everyone saying 'you didn't get in because xyz reasons' and someone else 'you didn't get in because abc reasons' etc. But a generic message of 'I have now picked my players from the many RTJs I received. Thank you for applying however your application was unsuccessful.' Just copy paste that to everyone who didn't get in. At least they are aware and can move on. If they ask for feedback you can give it to them if you want, ignore them or you can give them another generic message of 'Sorry but it would be difficult for me to respond to everyone asking questions for feedback, thank you for your time.'
2) For me just following #1 is enough. So a bad experience is not being told I didn't get in and the only way I know is a look and see the adventure has started and I'm not in it, frustrating. A good one is just telling me I didn't get in so I know I can move on and start looking elsewhere. A great one would be a personalised response that says why I didn't get in. This is great because I do not require or expect it so it is nice if someone goes to the little extra effort to inform rejected players on why they were rejected. But as I said in #1 I would consider that a kindness if they do that rather than a rudeness if they do not.
3) Exactly what I said in #1, a generic message to the failures to let them know to move on. Usually I will ignore any further responses after that. The only exception is if it was someone I really liked and it was just a case of I was looking for 6 players and dthere were 7 really good RTJs then I might give a more detailed response to the rejected player along the lines of 'I really liked your RTJ and honestly it was a tough decision. If you're ok with it I'd like to keep you in mind in case players drop out.'
V1510n
All good advice to this point.
I'd add that you should make it clear in the RTJ what the process will be after the play submits the RTJ. It's kind of a contract about what you are expecting and will be doing e.g. you won't review until some date, you hope to have completed by some date, and so on.
Advisor
Definitely a good point, I would suggest that being in the RTJ info itself. Also in that you can include if you're going to tell them if they failed or not. You could just say 'If you have not heard from me by x date you did not get in, thank you for applying.'
Window Watcher
I'll put something like "Give me a week to respond to your RTJ/character pitch. If I don't get back to you by then, ping me."
Sometimes I'll reply to their RTJ "I'm tied up and won't get to this for a few days" or such.
It might be good to mention in the RTJ thread that not everyone will be accepted (group size limit or whatever), just to reduce the blow of rejection.
LissaAzules
From the player side of the screen, I just feel that "you weren't selected" is kind of a rude f you to the person who put a lot of time and thought into a character concept...
I recently did a rtj for a game where the DM wanted backstory, background, personality traits, ideals, bond, flaw and a writing sample with your character interacting with an NPC... the response was "the rtj has been closed and unfortunately you weren't selected"...
I admit that, on the surface, that seems like a polite rejection but it still leaves me with unanswered questions...
Was my concept poor? Was my writing sample bad? Did my concept just not fit this particular game? Was it a good concept/writing sample but others were just better? Did you not even read mine because you got so many requests that you found enough players before you even reached mine?
And on and on my mind spins into the dark abyss of doubt...
I try to let people know, not in novel length detail or anything, why they weren't selected... Kind of a "treat others how you want to be treated" thing but, unfortunately, the prevailing attitude seems to be more of an "I've got my players so go away"
Not on this site, but I once got just "No" as the response to a request I had sent to join a pbp game...
Advisor
I do get where you're coming from for your example, you spent a lot of time on an RTJ and you received very little in your rejection.
However, there are a couple of points I would consider:
First, there are tiers to the response a DM could give: No response, simple rejection (generic sorry but you weren't selected), personalised rejection (I didn't feel your concept would mesh with the others I selected), detailed rejection (this part of your backstory doesn't work, someone else I preferred picked this same class, I didn't think your writing sample would be a good match for me, etc).
Now obviously the more in depth they go the 'nicer' they might be. So already the DM is at least making some level of effort since they could have just gone silent on you. I would regard a simple rejection as at least being 'polite' and anything more than that is being 'nice' or 'more considerate of the time you spent to RTJ'
Second, RTJs can often fill up a lot especially if it's a popular system or setting. So either the DM can be nice and answer everyone with some amount of detail which could potentially take an hour or a few hours which is a lot of time to dedicate to being 'nice' instead of just 'polite'.
In addition, despite the time the DM invests being 'nice' people might still get upset just because they were rejected or, a bit more extreme, because they spent hours on this RTJ anything less than a 5 paragraph response would be considered a slap in the face. There is no objective metric.
Third, often these decisions are not made in one block. By which I mean a DM won't necessarily ignore all the RTJs until the time comes and then sit down and read every one of them, making notes and picking out the best of the bunch over the course of however long that would take - probably a few hours at least depending on the number and detail of responses.
More often a DM will read them as they go and note ones they like and shelve ones they don't as 'maybe reconside this later if I don't get a lot of better ones'. Therefore if the DM has waited a week or two they have already read through the majority of the RTJs days or maybe close to two weeks ago. To give detailed feedback would probably mean re-reading most of the ones they have already dismissed, and why would they do that just to be 'nice' to some people they might never encounter again when they could better spend that time onboarding the players they have selected? A simple 'polite' response will be enough for the purpose of not keeping people hanging around.
Fourth, this is completely opt-in. By this I mean we choose if we are willing to spend our time creating an RTJ with the full understanding that we likely will not be successful. So the amount of time spent on an RTJ is, to my mind, not a reasonable justification for how a rejection comes simply because we choose if we want to RTJ and we know how the system works. A simple 'You have been rejected' I understand it sucks more to hear if we spent 5 hours on it compared to 5 minutes because we feel we wasted a lot more of our time but that is all on us, we chose to RTJ somewhere that would take 5 hours knowing there was a decent chance we wouldn't succeed. Besides it's only time wasted if we let it be. All that time and effort can easily be repurposed for future games.
Sir Swindle
Depending on the system any level of detail starts to be very difficult. Like any d20 game, Exalted, probably some others. You get like 30 RTJs. All that extra detail is basically tie breakers for what are sure to be good and workable concepts.
I try to give meta data about applications during the application process so people can adjust if they weren't married to their initial concept. Like for exalted I might give a running total off how many RTJs I get for each caste.
RTJs for that are almost all 50% Dawn, 25% Twilight, 25% mix of the others plus three dudes that want to app as a different splat. But usually if I post that I have 15 dawn caste applications a few of the dawn's pitch secondary concepts.
Added point. The rejection letter is not the place to tell you what specific points didn't work. If the fact that you were a slaver in your backstory is a no go that needed to be said prior to final selections. I went off on a GM on rpg crossing because he refused to give input on applications and then canceled the games because the RTJs didn't meet his vision for the game (something like that).
LissaAzules
Sir Swindle:
Added point. The rejection letter is not the place to tell you what specific points didn't work. If the fact that you were a slaver in your backstory is a no go that needed to be said prior to final selections.
This is not something I ever considered but I will definitely incorporate it into my process. Thank you!
Sir Swindle:
I went off on a GM on rpg crossing because he refused to give input on applications and then canceled the games because the RTJs didn't meet his vision for the game (something like that).
Wow.. Just... Wow lol Clarification: The DM, not you..
Advisor:
Besides it's only time wasted if we let it be. All that time and effort can easily be repurposed for future games.
Ironically, the character concepts (minus the writing samples and selection of traits) were ones I've toyed with for a few months as potential NPCs... So the concept and outline of background were there... I submitted them both, one as primary and a second as a backup, tp twp different RTJs (obviously tailored to the specific game being played)... The first, I really didn't expect to get in because I am currently DMing the same module for some friends (which I always disclose to potential DMs) and he got too many RTJ and, unfortunately for me, went with someone without prior/current knowledge of the adventure... The other game, the one with the writing sample, is the one my mind is spinning on... lol
And ironically, on that second game, he selected a guy that is currently a player in two games that I DM... And, he's using the same character in that game as in one of my games... lol I don't begrudge him the spot in the game because he is a great guy and a good player... Plus he's been trying to find games to join for quite some time... I usually message him when I see a game posted in Players that he might like... I didn't tell him about this one because I REALLY wanted to play it myself because I want to run it later when some of my current games conclude... lol
Suedog
1. I don't think I'd say its a requirement. As a player, and a player only, I've appreciated it.
2. DMs have periodically given me feedback on why I've not made the cut, and its never personally bothered me. Yes, sometimes its because my character wasn't original enough, or other things. Not sure if this has helped any, but here you go.