Because we are going to end up discussing mechanics a lot.

I haven't even looked at Mutants and Masterminds in the past year and a half.  SO, I'm probably a little rusty.  I have been focusing on Fate Core, Fate Accelerated and Blades in the Dark / Forged in the Dark games, so will probably be bringing in all sorts of narrative-first opinions.

I'm extremely on-board with that. The mechanical flaws in the MM3 system are well known enough to create pressure towards ungainly builds, so anything that lets people impact the game world without number crunching seems likely to minimize that.

Technically this goes over here, so. ^.^

I noticed this as well earlier. His equipment is far, FAR out of line for what equipment is meant to achieve. The whole point of equipment is for it to be useful but weaker than devices or powers. For example, there is a section in the relevant chapter that reads as follows:



There are various other outright errors, as well. For example, he has the multiattack extra on a damage effect with a range of perception. Perception range effects don't roll to hit, ergo it's impossible to benefit from the multiattack extra.

While I'm at it, it's important to note that half immunity to everything that targets the toughness defence is NOT equal to simply increasing toughness. Toughness has a cap based on power level, but immunity DOESN'T and the two of them both apply at the same time. Categorical immunity or half immunity to all effects that target a specific defence is something the rules technically allow but I would NEVER even consider allowing a player to take because of how broken it can be - you still get your dodge/parry chance when attacked, and if you happen to get hit the attack drops to half-power before you roll your toughness save. A character that favours toughness - which Golden Gun DOES - becomes incredibly difficult to threaten with damaging attacks due to this combo.

It's equivalent until we start getting hit by pl14 attacks, which doesn't seem likely any time soon. But yeah, I see the point about toughness and immunity stacking, and potentially pushing total defenses well above cap.

... Why wouldn't we face PL 14 attacks? There are six PCs, so any lone villain or monster we expect to find even remotely challenging either needs to much stronger than we are or have some kind of plan that isn't stopped simply by punching them really hard in the face.

You might well run into a PL14 attack, but it would be rather limited to a boss-fight.      Most the antagonists you'll run into will be more like henchmen or lieutenants than master villains.

So before I disappear onto a plane for a long, long time.

Are we using the RAW, where equipment can't be more than the modern day?

Or are we using Gunman's interpretation where the laser beam of death is also equipment?

I think my initial interpretation of Equipment was wrong.  Laser beams of death should be bought as Devices which falls under the buying powers category.  Sorry about that, everyone.  I'm redoing my character so that instead of having these cool devices to do cool stuff, he'll just do it himself.

While I am will for there to be exceptions (ie, the federal prison system is currently experimenting with "Nullify" technologies), they tend to be pretty severely limited in the hands of non-metas (ie, requires a power-source, limited usage, etc).

I prefer to cleave closer to the rules on this one.  Hence the issues with Golden Gunman's initial power set-up.

I referenced this old Atomic Think Tank forum topic on X-Ray vision to help me formulate an opinion.

While I concede that a narrow read on the rules would make x-ray vision unable to penetrate an obsfuscation effect (such as, say, darkness), it doesn't seem to fit with what I think you're trying to go for...  so I'm willing to allow that in gratis.

But the question, for me comes with how her perceives things.

So, let me give you a straight-forward example.



If higher-density materials appear as more opaque shades of white against a field of mostly black, he penetrates the concealment of the brick wall and sees Rick the Brick.  Would he see Alicia behind him?

Perhaps, since Rick is flesh and blood, a more ghostly reverse-shadow of Alicia would be visible superimposed on what Golden Bolt sees of Rick.  That makes sense to me.  But that brings the question to me of what would happen if you've got a dozen people lined up in a row?   At what point does it become too many ghost images to distinguish?

I know I'm splitting hairs here, but I wanted to outline a little of my thought process.   I enjoy this kind of mental wrangling.  And I'm not going to let it over-color the actual game-play.  However, I also want it clear that "Penetrates Concealment" does not grant omniscience.  Golden Bolt simply doesn't see everything.

Ar you familiar with photography and depth-of-field?  I think this plays a big part in how we model this sense-effect in action.

He can certainly concentrate and adjust the depth-of-field of his vision.  Perhaps even slowly calibrating it so that he's seeing the first person, then the second person, then the third...

Now, of course, if you don't actually care, then it's all good.  I spent a little time thinking about this at work (hey, my work is stupidly boring, so any diversion is a good thing).  But, on the other hand... if you've got an opinion, I want to make sure we're at least in the same chapter if not on the same page...

So, what are your thoughts?   How do you want it to work?
This message was last edited by the GM at 11:19, Wed 11 Mar 2020.

I don't actually care, just as long as it works.

In the case of needing to see through several dense objects to pinpoint what I want to find, how about making a perception check?

You know, I don't think I ever clarified the limits of Cassandra's broad-angle precognition well enough.

If she wouldn't be able to detect it with her remaining senses in the next few seconds by some hypothetical but real course of action, she can't perceive it at all. So sure, she isn't able to do anything that relies on color, including reading. But that also cuts her off from: anything higher than she could reach by climbing or jumping, anyone with movement speed comparable to hers who wants to hide from her, and anything on the other side of a barrier that would take her longer than that to cross, or that would be harmful enough to stop her.

Her time dilation gives her the effect of touch at ranges comparable to vision, and hearing beyond that, but a chainlink fence shortens her range by however long it would take her to climb—blindly. She can't tell what's on the other side of a storm door that she couldn't unlock somehow. If there's no scenario under her control that would make a chandelier drop into reach, she doesn't know it's there. She can't detect the other side of a gap too far for her to jump, and if it's further than she could clear with a routine action, her perceptions are clouded by the consequences of failing the leap, which means she doesn't know whether there's anything to leap to or not unless there's enough of an emergency she's willing to endure that to find out. Likewise, if there's a fire blocking the hallway, she can't tell what's on the other side of it unless she's prepared to experience the pain of running through the flames, potentially thousands of times at once.

It really doesn't make up completely for her missing sight. It's more like a burst area remote sensing with some very rough feedback from barriers of all kinds.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:16, Wed 11 Mar 2020.

A perception check is a given.   That's mechanics.  I'm talking narrative.

You saying you don't care puts the responsibility for how the power manifests and (to some extent) how your power works within the restrictions of the mechanics on my shoulders.  I don't want that responsibility.   That's part of your job, here.   This isn't a book or even a comic-book.  We're creating together--collaborating.  So, work with me here, please!

If you really, truly, don't care, then you will be stuck with what I give you.

In the case of seeing through several objects of varying density, the issue isn't whether you can see through them.   The power-description and associated perception-check says you can.  The issue is whether you can comprehend what the hell you're seeing.

In the Grant Conglomerate scene, Golden Bolt is looking through several floors of glass, metal, steel frame, plaster, electrical wiring, office furniture, wood, linoleum, electronics, etc., etc., etc.   How the hell does he make sense of it?  And how would he distinguish an incendiary device among all of that?

I'm so going to need to go over the sheet and your descriptions again...

It sounds kinda cool, and I appreciate how it does limit her, while at the same time opening up the possibilities...

Thanks! That was a design goal—supplying scenario hooks and complications. I know what a mess precog can be, so I've tried to be very careful about implementing it in a way that can actually work in a game situation.

It also makes some situations more dangerous for her than for anyone else, precisely because she knows what's going to happen in this way. And I'm not even talking about someone who figures out exactly how she experiences the world and lays a customized trap. Any non-visual cognitohazard, as the SCP page labels them, would affect her in the process of just being able to navigate the room. Subliminal messages? She's utterly bombarding herself with them. Damage zones can double as Concealment against her, if there isn't a dire need, and if it's a future need, her only way of finding out about it might be the long-range precognition, which is firmly under GM control.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:30, Wed 11 Mar 2020.

So, as agents of AEGIS< you'll have some basic benefits.

The biggest of which is unified frequency comms.

What form should these take?  They can be customized for each of you, if you like.

As a device, of course, they can potentially be blocked (nullified), hacked, hijacked, removed, etc.   And they shouldn't communicate unless you take some sort of action: push a button, etc.  So, they are not always-on transmitting.

Anything else you'd like to add in to the basic package that you should all get?  While I wanna keep the points low, if it makes sense it makes sense.

Your thoughts?

Crown Tower Hotel is a big hotel.  The basement is rather labrynthine.   But, really, the remote-sensing/searching doesn't hold that much potential for drama for me, so I'm willing to hand-wave that and move forward.

Let's say if it weren't full of water, it'd probably take three or four hours to search everywhere, on foot.  So, that's Rank 11.  But it is full of water.  So, I'm gonna bump that up to about 10-12 hours to search normally (Rank:13).  With your Quickness... Remote-Sensing would take up to a full minute (Rank:3) to locate the pocket of survivors.

They need recording ability to deal with the timewarping, though that might be handled by an uplink to a bigger computer that handles all the details.  Plus, I'm sure AEGIS wants all comms recorded anyway.

And since they'll have that available (somehow), it'd be nice if they could do a little on-the-spot work with audio.  The equivalent of ultrasound hearing maybe, but with a long activation?  Hypercompressed bursts of audio data sent periodically are also harder to intercept and distinguish from random fluctuations, so they could have a covert mode with terrible audio quality but both kinds of Subtle 1.



Cassandra is absolutely going to want a badge she can tap and speak at, like star trek.  But honestly, a subvocal mic that rests on the throat and a speaker that transmits through bone vibrations would be the smart way to go.

So dealing with the water thinking I've got two options, I spend an HP to get an extra array on my equipment array/minor telekinetic array kind of pumps or something the two options, and I'm still working on point cost:

1) Teleport - water only, short range only and send the water outside to the street or to the sea if it's close enough....

2) Transform water to water vapour, make it continous and just make the water go bye bye, this he could just use some of his equipment to evaporate the water as fast can be by exciting the molecules (not heating it :P)

3) Move object, water only, and just shunt it outside.

Which is most feasible or the most liked by you Control?


Getting through the floor, I was just planning on using tools to cut the floor away and then using telekinesis to lift it out of the way....preferably fairly quickly.

Considering the specialty of the teleport/transform/move object I should be able to crank the mass up high enough where I'm moving tons of water at a time.

EDIT: Unless we're okay with Move object being able to move water in big blobs just as is...because not only is that visually cool but saves me a HP as well!
This message was last edited by the player at 18:56, Fri 10 Apr 2020.

I, uh, I got bad news for you about physics, friend. ;)

But this looks like the most complicated and dangerous idea of the three. Even handwaving away the thermo part, you'd have a tense balance between fast enough to help and slow enough not to blow the building apart.

Yes, yes, exciting the molecules is heating them I know...

But I was hoping to skip the boiling water phase and just go to nice cool mist :P And avoid the skin removing steam as well....

Teleport:  We'd need to discuss whether it's a a straight movement or a castling teleport--exchanging volume at destination for volume at site.    Otherwise... vacuum implosion from disappearing material.

It's after the tsunmai.  Let's call it around 200 feet to the water's edge.  So that would put it at the medium range for Move Object (up to 25 tons of water).

Water-vapor... yeah, heating it.

Either way, if you don't do something to barricade the water outside of a predefined area, the outside water is just going to come rushing in.   So, you'll want to erect some sort of barrier to keep outside water out.

3) Move object, water only, and just shunt it outside.

I thought about straight move-object, and the ruling that you can't drag someone along with move-object...  how does that apply to water?  Let's say that liquid of the density of water is within this power's capability to affect.  It keeps it easy, and spares you the hero-point (though I appreciate that you were thinking of it!).

According to
https://www.thecalculatorsite....substances/water.php

25 tons of seawater is about 780 cubic feet. Yet Rank 10 in the tables is about 1000 cubic feet (around 7500 gallons US).  So, I'd wanna go with the more generous helping.  Really, either is more than enough to carve out an area and move the water.

So, yeah.  Move Object should work just fine.

However, be aware that I might go against this precdent at a later time...



Getting through the floor, I was just planning on using tools to cut the floor away and then using telekinesis to lift it out of the way....preferably fairly quickly.

Fair enough.



Man, I'd forgotten some of the math gymnastics that this game sometimes brings on.  Glad we're doing this via text where I've got time to calculate shit...

re: my latest

The environmental effect makes small, drifting, erratic zones of faster/slower progression of time. The effects on things other than characters are mostly up to GM discretion, but I've suggested the immediate local effects. I'll probably need to make an Extra Effort of it if you think the effects would be noteworthy, jait. I'm fine with Fatigue, in that case.

(And you definitely opt into the gymnastics, nerd. :p)
This message was last edited by the player at 14:30, Tue 14 Apr 2020.

I'm giving Lachesis the opposite of an Extended Sense rank, for how much more slowly she moves through the water. She senses out along her own future to a distance measured in seconds. So being forced to move more slowly by anything but a time effect (which she's immune to anyway) shortens her perceptions like trying to smell things from upwind. But she's also looking for the chance to breathe without immediately drowning, which seems like a DC 0 task, thus my roll and my question in OOC.
This message was last edited by the player at 02:55, Fri 24 Apr 2020.

@Solid State


You ever hear the expression no plan survives contact with the enemy?

Apparently, Your Move Object power doesn't have the Damaging Extra.   Or did I miss that somewhere?

Normally, I'd let you power-stunt it for free because it took so long for me to get back on this... but it was a critical miss.  So, it's kind of a moot point.

If you want to take the Damaging extra for the Move Object power, you're certainly welcome to tweak the build.  Just keep me informed when there are updates.

[Private to GM:
With Ronin Army & Atomic Think Tank forums now gone for good, I found this discussion:
https://www.reddit.com/r/mutan...mprovised_weapon_or/]
This message was last edited by the GM at 05:33, Mon 01 June 2020.

The comm units are a radio frequency based.   I envision some sort of variation on a throat-mic and bone-conduction hearing...  maybe something like this: (
https://bevaldia.com/underwater-throat-phones-11/ ).   However, underwater would have limitations.  I'm more than happy to hero-point it if it becomes a plot-advantage.

@Lachesis

I imagine it might be uncomfortable, perhaps even distracting, for Lachesis to suddenly "see" this 3d representation.  if you want to take it as a temporary complication, it's an avenue of hero-point generation.

But only if you want it.  I'm neither here nor there.

My understanding, which is not encyclopedic by any stretch of the imagination is that Damaging on move object means you can damage by simply crushing or striking with it as per the rules:



But it is implied that you can throw things to cause damage with Move object by the implication that you can increase the damage of thrown objects without the Damaging effect as stated.



This seems to indicate that you can not only throw objects but can wield weapons with Move Objects as a means of damaging 'indirectly'.

Is this not the case?

My understanding, which is not encyclopedic by any stretch of the imagination is that Damaging on move object means you can damage by simply crushing or striking with it as per the rules:
That is also my understanding.

It is implied that you can throw things to cause damage with Move object by the implication that you can increase the damage of thrown objects without the Damaging effect as stated.

RAW:

Improvised Weapon or Throwing Mastery: You are particularly
adept at using objects as weapons with your power.
Each rank of either advantage increases the damage of
objects wielded or thrown using Move Object by 1.

You can!  But these Advantages requires that Move Object does damage.  Right now, Solid States Move Object power does not do damage.  Not without the +1/rank Damaging Extra.  That's just the nature of the way the rules are written.  I agree it's not narratively consistent.  But it causes too many other problems if we change it.

This seems to indicate that you can not only throw objects but can wield weapons with Move Objects as a means of damaging 'indirectly'.
Damage from environmental conditions (ie, a ACME anvil mysteriously falling from the air to land on the bad guys head) is going to be a narrative thing, not a mechanical thing.

With Ronin Army forums now closed up, I had to go looking elsewhere for the rationale.   I think this catches my POV pretty well:
https://www.reddit.com/r/mutan...mprovised_weapon_or/


Strength is made up of two effects, each costing 1 point per rank. The ability to move stuff (1/rank) and the Damage effect (also 1/rank).  Move Object is made up of the ability to move stuff (1/rank) plus the Ranged extra (1/rank).

Power-Lifting (Enhanced Strength (Limited: No Damage)) costs only 1 point per rank, because it's just Strength without the damage component.  Or rather, it's just lifting strength.  Because it's not damaging, this power (Power-Lifting) could go well above rank-10, as it's not constrained by the PL limit.

From all this, I see it that Move Object with the Damaging extra is exactly the same as Strength with the Ranged extra. You can inflict damage by throwing things, punching things at range, squeezing things, breaking them, whatever you could do with Strength you can do with Move Object with the Damaging extra.   Of course, the downside is that it costs another +1/rank.

Without the damaging Extra, you're limited to disarm, grab, and trip attacks (or, really anything that you can make narratively that isn't a "do direct damage" type action.


Strategies to resolve this:
You've got Move Object 10  (Precise, Subtle), as a 22pp power in an array with a 31pp point-cap.

Move Object 10 (Precise, Subtle, Damaging) would cost you 32pp which would put you over the array limit by 1pp.

Move Object 9 (Precise, Subtle, Damaging) would only cost you 29pp against the 31pp array limit, and would have a (to my mind) negligible impact on the scale of his power.

Of course, if you can find another way to shave off one more pp, you can drop that into either Remote Sensing or Move Object to make that the array-cap-definer, giving you the space to keep Move Object at 10.

I like the reasoning that move object is strength with the ranged option.

But you don't need damaging to throw objects with normal strength....or to use it to damage with objects/weapons....

The whole throwing section doesnt require you to have damage in strength


Sorry on my phone so can't get more info but where do you see it requiring damaging in strength to throw things

I can reshuffle if I need to, I just don't think it makes sense if you see at as strength I can guarantee none of the brick builds have damaging on their strength and throwing things is there bread and butter.

Per players handbooks discussion of Move Object:



It's just before the last paragraph that talks about Move Object not causing damage directly.

Seems to clearly indicate power can be used to throw something for damage, just as Strength can.  I would suggest the skill roll then would be specific for Throw and not for general skill with the powerset.

Also, Strength is and of itself, damaging.  It requires nothing extra, you can simply crush or punch someone with it.  Throwing something requires an available object and is reasonably limited by this.  You're probably not doing Damage 10 if all you have available to throw is a plastic bat. Is there a car nearby, then maybe.   Move Object without Damaging couldn't be used to rip up anything to throw; you're at the mercy of GM or having an Advantage or spending hero point to change scene
This message was last edited by the player at 16:40, Wed 03 June 2020.

He's not saying strength needs Damaging. He's saying it already contains Damaging. And that Move Object is basically just strength -damaging +increase_range, and that's why they're the same price per rank.

Move Object doing Damage
I accept that a thrown object with Move Object will do Move Object ranks damage.  That appears to be in the rules (thank-you Em).

Move Object is a standard action with a sustained duration.  If SolidState is still controlling the object as it smashes into his target, than I just don't see how this is any different from a ranged punch--which is expressly denied by the rules--unless the Damaging extra is in play.  He just can't bludgeon someone with the slab of concrete, then continue to bring it around to bludgeon the target again the next round...  If he can do this without the Damaging extra, under what circumstanced does the damaging extra become necessary?

If SolidState relinquishes control over the object once it's in flight--which is how I see him having flung the concrete at Waterworks--then he is no longer moving it with the Move Object power, and damage becomes subject to the thrown object rules (doing Move Object(10) rank damage).  If SolidState wants to pick up that slab of concrete again do the same action, he's certainly welcome to do so, but he'll need to make the rolls again. because he terminated the sustained use of that power when he threw the concrete. Does that make sense?

I get that my thinking might be muddled here, so I'm aprpeciative of the chance to discuss while it's not crucial to the in-character actions...


However, all this brings up another concern.

Skill Rolls for Ranged Combat
The RPOL sheet for SolidStates has the following skill:
Ranged Combat (Thrown Objects) 4

I'm willing to accept some levels of generalities ("bow attacks", "throwing knife attacks" even perhaps "improvised weapon attacks") but "Thrown Objects" is too general for me.   "Thrown Objects" does not denote the nature of the attack.

Thrown by hand does Strength(-2) damage.   Thrown by Move Object does MO(+10) damage.  I'm pretty sure you want the attack to be specialized to Ranged Combat (Move Object).  I do not feel that this skill should apply to both of them.  One is a trained physical skill, the other is a trained power skill.   Each attack type--if you wanted more than one--needs to be listed separately.

I strongly suggest that you take the Improvised Weapon extra for Move Object.  and/or the Throwing Mastery Advantage.   You've certainly got the padding in the array-limit to afford it.  This character is an adept in his suit... and it should be reflected...

Consider the inherit limitations:
- there must be an object available to throw/wield (note: he can't damage anything to create something to throw since power doesn't have damaging. no ripping a tree out of the ground or tearing up a slab of concrete)
- the object can be damaged/destroyed and thus deprive him of its use
- you, as GM, may rule that the object is incapable of doing the maximum amount of damage

Compare that to actually having Move Object, Damaging:
- just use the power and hurt them, no other considerations, done

I don't find great guidance on Throwing in general. Where'd you find that throwing by hand does Strenght(-2) damage?  Weird that it would do different base damage than throwing using Move Object.

Only thing close I've found is throwing distance discussed under section for Strength and then the discussion under skill Ranged Combat.  The section on Ranged Combat mentions:



Finally, the adders for Improvised Weapon and Throwing Mastery seem to cover different situations: Improvised Weapon == using Close Combat skill & Throwing Mastery == Ranged Combat skill.  They also only increase damage and not ability to hit.  I would suggest no one with simple Move Object should be allowed to pick up anything and use the Ranged Combat: Throwing skill to attack with something as an improvised weapon.

No, no, he means that it does (Strength) damage, which is -2 ranks for SS.

Ah, of course, thanks for clarifying

So you're saying that the Damaging extra allows the application of damage to the object being affected by the power.  And if that object just so happens to be the villain standing in front of you...  so be it.  Is that right?

'Cause my major disconnect here was that I wasn't thinking that the target, itself, could be the object that's being moved in Move Object.  Under that lens, it makes sense.

So, SolidState.  You're okay.  No change is required.
This message was last edited by the GM at 02:01, Sat 06 June 2020.