Dedicated OOC tactics discussion thread.

@GM - I'm assuming the doors Maerk's lying between open out into the hall and into the room respectively? My thought was to step back into the hall and "Hodor", but Nez is now in that space?

Thanks for the breakdown of the rolls, those modifiers on our foes make Maerk's high AC not-so-high after all!

I would think we should all fall back into the room with the frog men, but I don't see us surviving long enough to do so. We're really in a bad spot. I'd hoped that Maerk could stopper the monkey dudes, but...

Anyway, not good.

I think if you weren't in the doorway, but flanking it you'd be in a better position.  We sort of have to depend on the others to take out that frogman, and put ourselves in a position to tag team the monkeys as they come out of the room.

Where you are now all four can attack just you.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but you could move to just beside the door and 'ready' an action to hit the first one through it?  If you can ready or hold an action that is.

You'll forgive me for being unsure.  I'm basically learning a new system mid combat :p   What works for the monkeys will also work for us if one of THEM is in the doorway though.

Maerk if you were back one square Yala could attack too. That's another option.

If you move back one square, yes you can close the door. I can be pretty generous when it comes to positioning among allies so I'll just bump you around on my end, especially if you're not engaged directly with an enemy I am not going to be a stickler for rules saying you can't move to accommodate one another.

The way I do cover and LOS:

Line of Sight is if any corner of the square can draw a straight line to any corner on another square.

Cover is if the center of a square passes through an object to the center of the target's square. +2 AC for a wall, +1 AC for a person of similar size.

Hope that helps!

It's also about tactics. I have 1 infused reagent I've not used yet that I plan to use for a bomb and toss into the room. But to use Quick Alchemy I need 1 action to make the bomb and 1 to throw it. You close the door that means on my turn I'll also need an action to open the door. :)

I'd have made the bomb last turn but it would have went inert before I could throw it. ;)

We could coordinate that too, Maerk open, you throw, Maerk close and hold...

I'm thinking Arnellia open, heal you. Yala make and toss bomb, and slash guy at door. Za does another burning hands into room. If guy at door still standing, Maerk finishes him, closes door. If not, Maerk enters room, kills next standing monkey. By that point if all goes well they should all be wounded and the middle one be crippled, with the door one dead. And you should be able to kill the middle one, if between me and Za we can't.

How much more do we expect to go before a rest?  That will be my third of four 1st level spells, and then I'm down to just cantrips.

Hopefully, after this. I'm almost out of potions myself and the only two people I've not used Battle Medicine on are at full health.
This message was last updated by the player at 00:40, Tue 17 Nov 2020.

If I heal Maerk that's it, my last heal and it will be my weakest heal at only one action.  We clear this area and should be very hesitant to go any further without rest.

OK, then.  I'm fine with another Burning Hands, if the GM will let us multiplex the square I would cast it from.  I think he cut us some slack in letting Maerk push me back in order to close the door.  (I AM all of 48 pounds or so.)  But I'm not sure we should count on the rules-bending to let multiple people act from the same point.

Maerk's are linchpin in this so him as healthy as we can get him is to our benefit. I have two healing potions left myself, but agree. After finishing these two fights we should rest for sure.

GM, can Za cast between Maerk's leg's given she's so small?

Sure. Or around his waist works too. Basically just treat him like cover :D

The problem with that is that there is not concept of cover for Burning Hands -- it doesn't have an attack roll.  If I have to stand behind him, which is what would make him "cover," then he'll be in the area of effect.  What we're trying to accomplish is to have me dart forward into his space just to cast it past him, so I still get a cone that catches the monkeys, but doesn't catch him.

Za, he's saying you can do it. :) He's giving your tiny gnomyness a boon. lol

Agreed. Are you going to change your post or is this plan going to wait until next round?

Next round

well.. then let me go edit my post I guess.

Do you disagree?  Maerk can keep the door closed for any amount of time, I'm sure.  Meanwhile, we still have a frog in the other room.

No that works fine for me.  Lets me put Sanctuary up.

I'm willing to wait a round, I just have the concern of them coming around and flanking us which I was trying to prevent. :) Though we did hurt them so they might wait too.

Fall back into the room with Yarr and Sularius if they come through the hall to the south or the door to the north!

In fact, when we open that door if there are not Monkey Men on the other side I suggest we don't wait for them to come around the other way and automatically move back to the frogman room.

I'm not sure that burning hands is hurting these monkeys at all.  Three of the four are still described as 'healthy' even though I've hit them twice.  If they aren't taking half damage from the spell, then it means they have an Evasion talent like a rogue.

What else do you have at your disposal?

Grease, Charm, True Strike, and Dragon Claws.  (The last is my lineage spell.)

Evasion is a matter of the save. If that make the save they won't take much, fail they take it all. Burning hands it still best bet IMHO.

Also, I agree, if we open the door and they are no in that room anymore we fall back to the room that had the frogmen.

The spell has a DC of 18, and three of them have taken zero damage so far.  (GM lists them as 'healthy' which means 100%.)  That means that either they've all rolled >28 on both saves or they've rolled >18 and have Evasion talent.  I'm doubting the former.

Anyway, I can't believe that they are more than +12 on the reflex save, so the spell ought to catch a little more than it has.  They've just been lucky.

Is this stupid frog still up?  Let's kill it.

Edit:  Oh, it ran away.  (Reading comprehension FTW.)  Anyway, it seems like the monkeys have moved elsewhere, but I'll rejoin and be ready to cast, if you like.
This message was last edited by the player at 02:44, Fri 20 Nov 2020.

Fall back to the westward room. We can hole-up in there and Treat Wounds. I'm guessing here, but I'm imagining the monkey-men holding their attacks until one of us opens the door and said someone will get massacred. We'll really benefit from getting rid of those Wounded conditions if possible.

We can still do our door plan, but the narrower halls will help us.

If you look at the history you'll see you burnt the monkeys just fine, but they were healed full (or close to it) by Arnellia's burst heal.

The key for the burst heal is that the wording changes between a 2-action and 3-action heal.

The base spell has a wording of this on targeting:



So willing creature means if you cast this at an enemy they probably won't accept it, right? However when you upgrade to 3-action the targeting changes:



It changes from "willing creature" to "all creature" so this will heal friend and foe alike.  A 30' burst just hit everything so both the toady and monkeys received healing as well.

Well..  Shit...

DM, Thanks for the explanation.


LOL.

Just so there's not a hold up or misunderstanding, I'm pretty sure Nez means she's lining up behind the fallback position door...

Also, can Yarr or Sularius get a pot shot off in the frog?

In reply to Maerk (msg # 34):

Did I miss something, but how do we know that the Monkeymen are moving when the doors not even been opened?

We don't know. Maerk hasn't felt any resistance against the door, so they're either waiting in ambush for someone to open the door, they're flanking us, or they're getting out of Dodge.

In any of those circumstances, I don't see opening the door having a benefit. Let's fall back to the room where the frog-man was, and try to barricade ourselves in a bit with the furnishings, at least long enough to get a Treat Wounds... Maerk's been healed up significantly (thanks by they way) but, if I understand correctly, he's still got the Wounded 2 condition. We're about one series of ranged attacks away from a TPK...

So is anyone opening the door or is everyone just retreating back to the former frog room?

The idea of hitting with the AOE attacks first was to counter any ambush. It's a standard Infantry room clearing technique. If you know or suspect your enemy is waiting in a room in ambush you toss in a grenade first. We just happen to have two grenades.

Anyway, I guess we're falling back.

FYI now seems a good time to point out this:

https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=82



So this is how you can "ready" an action for if the enemy charges you etc. Of note is that you only get a single action so most spell casting cannot be set as a readied action because it requires 2 actions to cast.

HOWEVER some spells, like Heal, that only require on action can be set at the ready.

Other note is that when you ready an action your turn ends so do whatever else you were going to do first.

Enemies can ready as well, can they not? This is why I didn't think we should open the door. If the monkey-men are all holding an attack with their trigger to be 'if the door opens', well...

With them healed back up, and several of us diminished and 'Wounded', I'm sticking with my position that we did the right thing by falling back and taking a breather.

Yes enemies can ready actions.

The intent with falling back and barricading the door was to buy us 10 min for Treat Wounds.

If we can't hold out... we'd best have a "Get outa Dodge" plan.

It needs to be ten minutes of rest though, not 10 minutes of contested athletics checks.

All the furniture in these rooms have been smashed into pieces. Even with a hammer and nails (that you probably don't have) there just aren't pieces long enough to really hold back anyone.

I would say you can get a bonus on a contested athletics check or turn the area in front of the doorway into difficult terrain to prevent charging and holding the door closed but it isn't going to hold them back on its own.

There is the complication that judging from the sounds they are not being passive, that they are actively trying to hunt the party down and it sounds like they have reinforcements judging by the additional croaking.

Finally just as a reminder in 2e knowledge checks are an action and I would say concentrating on a perception check is an action. This would mean focusing your full attention to try and find out where they are, how many there are etc.

Just as a reminder you might want to double check the map and update your positioning. Right now it looks like the party is very spread out and might not be in an ideal position for combat.

It was also discussed about running away. I don't know if that is still in the cards or if the party has committed to holding the room.

@Maerk - Yes you can hold the door shut. You don't even need a free hand because the doors swing inwards so you can just lean against it with the same effect.

I did mention that I'd start the Read Aura back in the room, though I didn't give a specific location.  Let's say Q19, so I'm ready to send a burning hands past Maerk when he opens the door.

I'm not gonna open the door, our enemies may force it though, in that case, we should hit and run, or run now.

Are we ambushing them when they come in the door or leaving?  It doesn't much matter which, we just need to actually decide that.

I have one buff spell left and who gets it depends on where people move to.  I can cast Magic Weapon one on person's weapon; who will benefit the most from it?

If we are really concerned about making it out of this alive, I recommend and tactical withdrawal outside to regroup. It's my understanding that with the staircase blocked, the door we came in is the only way in or out. So we could theoretically bar it from the outside and make sure none of them leave.

Personally I think that the decision really hinges on how much firepower our casters have left.

I am down to cantrips and Magic Weapon.  Yala has used combat medicine on everyone and I have on a couple of people.  Mind you, that's almost exactly what I came INTO this with lol.

I have one infused reagent left I can use for anything.

THIS is the exact reason Yala sat up the plan she did to prevent this from fully happening. Now we're cornered, likely surrounded, out of healing. She's not an amused elf, the fiery redhead in her is about to come out.

Moved here, posted in wrong thread. Sorry.

Let's consider: these guys hit as well as we do, and now that the four likely have reinforcements, they're at least equal in number, and they do about as much damage as we do, and they don't have Wounded conditions hanging over their heads...

We better git while the gittin's good... Maerk will hold the door while the rest of you escape, if it feels like he's not going to hold out, he'll split too, hoping the debris stacked in front of the door and caltrops slow the pursuit long enough for him to get away as well...

How's that sound?

Also, I'm too lazy to make a new character... ;-)

It seems to me like we can get out through the south hallway that Sularius recon'd. If you all head that way, Maerk can hold the door until the last moment and then chase after you to try to get away. Did I read something wrong?

Yeah, me and Arnellia's player are chatting on Discord she pointed out something I missed. I edited my IC part to reflect what actually was seen. Ignore my OOC part, I'm going to cut it out and reply to your post in the OOC thread anyway considering it was a reply to that anyway.

Jeezus people, give me a chance to fix my crap.

FRankly despite what was 'seen' by Sul I still do not think they are all in that hallway.

Add to that Yala will not leave a party member behind, period. Not going to happen. Maerk already pissed her off by putting them in this boat, it's we all go at once or we all stay and commit suicide like he seems to want to. Because to her, trying to hold a door against 4+ enemies is suicide.

Okay if we are going to retreat we need to send a couple of fighters down the south hallway, put the pure casters in the middle then Maerk can follow us.   The Caltrops can't be used until everyone is clear, so Maerk will have to scatter them.

Right now, in character, we KNOW there are enemies of both types outside this door.  As of now they aren't in the southern hallway to the best of our knowledge.

Now, the way he's been running the enemies means no one will have to be left behind.  Maerk can move before the bad guys can open the door, scattering Caltrops behind him in the hallway.

Sularius peeked down at row Z... are we talking about the same hallway?

Yes the southern hallway out of this room.

We only have 1, 2ish fighters if you count Yarr.

Can we JUST FREAKING GO?

I mean for the love of freaking god. Everyone get in line, and go out the only open door, NOW. You too Maerk. GO NOW.

Whoa, calm down. We can't all go now. The DM said he's still running things in initiative order, and Sularius (as an example) has already acted this round. So I can't act again until the DM posts, and neither can anyone else who has already acted.

Yeah, bad guys go and then we can go. That's the reason Maerk's prepped to hold the door. I feel like the bad guys are gonna give it a go. Hopefully Maerk's strength and the debris piled up can hold them for a turn or two.

If Yala's not going to leave until Maerk leaves, then she can spread the caltrops. Depending on what happens on the next bad guys' go, Maerk will likely leave the room southward. I can lead the way, as Yala suggests, or I can resist and hold up the pursuit a little.

I still stand by my argument that falling back to this room was the best idea, because at the time none of us were thinking of fleeing the battle, which I now think is our best course of action. However, I also think that if we stay and fight, we can position ourselves around the door as a choke point and hammer the bad guys one at a time as they come through.

I suggest, Plan A) Run. Plan B) Spread out to the sides of the door and ambush.

I'm not suggesting. FRankly we spend to much time quibbling about minor things and that's why I'm upset.

As to Maerk holding the door, is that smart? No. All they have to do is destroy it, burn it, bull rush it, or some other means to destroy it.

Then you have the issue of the fact that the bottleneck may not work considering the majority of their guys are ranged right now. So you bottleneck only their melee guys, while their ranged guys all step back against the wall and hit whoever they can see in the door.

So like I said. I'm not suggesting. We leave and rest.

Which takes time. Time we need to make tracks. I was hoping we'd get 10 min, but apparently that's not gonna happen. Maerk's trained in Athletics and GM said he'd get a bonus to his checks from the crap he piled against the door. Yes, I could roll badly right off and they could get in. So word your Delay action as 'If the bad guys come through that door...' else Stride³ and get down the hall!

If we don't line up in the door, then we can attack the same way and get partial cover from the wall.


That was the whole point of falling back to this room we're in now. None of us realized we'd not have our 10 minutes for Treating Wounds... Had we opened the door in the previous hallway, I'm pretty sure we'd have been met with a hail of debris and hatchets... At least now we (might possibly) have a way out to the south, though we'll be Striding past the hall they're in now... That's where you can toss your 'nades as we go by.

My suggestion for actions is this current round:
A1: Delay your throws or ranged attacks or whatevers with the trigger "If the door is forced open by the enemies..."
A2-3: Stride southward at considerable haste.

For the top of the next round (after the bad guys go this round):
If the door is forced open, do the above sans Delay, if not then A1-3 Stride on outta there!

Yala, we're agreeing with you, but we're still in Initiative order and we can't do anything further until GM's bad guys go. Also, we're trying to discuss how to flee the safest way possible and survive. We can edit our latest IC posts though in the meantime... if so motivated.

In the map I have created a grey "fog of war" that shows what you can see and what you can't. Sularius looked down the main hallway and didn't see anything. In addition all the noises that the party has heard so far is marked clearly on the map.

Don't forget that in 2e you can triple move giving you anywhere from 75-90' of movement.

If everyone just triple moves you can all either reach or almost reach the secret door this turn.

I won't say which plan is better but I will say that you should stick together no matter what. When the enemy is allowed to concentrate fire it is very easy to bring down a PC in a single round.

Please post or update your actions ASAP. I will update Friday morning based on what is written.

I had to return the room to recover my bow, so my actions are set this round.

Sigh.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BN1WwnEDWAM

lol
Well we can all triple move this round to get the hell out.

Yeet? Everyone yeeting then?

For the love of the gods I hope so lol

Yes, sorry, thought I had posted.

What's our skelly plan then?

I've got the bones of a plan. But there's no meat on it.
*Badum tiss*

Well, I'd forgo our usual "poke them with sharp sticks" and move on to "hit them with heavy lumps."

Bludgeon them to redeath!

That's why Yala got out her sling. Sling bullet's are bludgeoning. :)

So you're saying I should've bought a light mace or something? Now you tell me!  :)

In reply to Sularius Alariel (msg # 74):

Heh, I wish I had one too! But thankfully, I did not sell away the sling from the Alchemists kit like I always do this time. :)

Since this is my first combat with a Panache character, would the success of the feint have given Yarr a Panache point?

I can put some hurt on some undead and when we get the fuzzy wuzzy's out of the way I can amp up a couple of people's weapons to deal with the big bad.  However, it won't change any of them to bludgeoning weapons; it will just hopefully push the weapon damage of whoever I enchant over their resistance amount.

Does anyone have a staff or something similar to pass to Sula?

Sadly I don't, which is why I switched to my sling. Only bludgeoning weapon I have.

Yala can you get in there and keep Maerk on his feet so I can use Magic Weapon this round?

On it. Let me look at map.

Maerk, if you're staying in the fight, you should move so that you and Yarr are flanking him.

@Nez - Good call, doing so now!

Where is everyone at health-wise?   I've hit up no one with treat wounds yet, and still have one more heal up my sleeve.

I think Sul is the only one down still.

Is there anything like hit dice (second wind) or healing surges or ??? in PF2?
;-)

Maerk's 13/32 HP.

 I'm finding that his high AC isn't really that high compared to the critters we've faced so far. Seems like the numbers have all just shifted upwards. Anyway, my 5e is showing, sorry.

It's not your AC. It's actually said that the Age of Ashes AP is one of the most lethal Paizo has put out. I tending to agree.

Many of the enemies encountered so far are throwing +10 into their dice. They are hitting hard but keep in mind your high AC is keeping them from getting criticals that can potentially down you in one hit.

From what I can tell, they rebalanced combat at lower levels so you hit and are being hit a lot more often. That is why you start with double or even triple the HP you would in 1e.

I like it because nothing is more boring then round after round of everyone whiffing and making combat a slug fest really puts strain on the player's resources and makes combat a lot more intense.

As a GM I want combat to be meaningful. If I'm going to slow down the game for a few rounds of hacking & slashing I want it to actually mean something.

How fast are these helmets moving?  If we back up in the room, I'm thinking that they won't be able to get within range of their spikes with a single move action, so they'll have to spend two moves to get in range, then an action casting their spikes, and they'll be left in the narrow hallway so we will have a chance to unload on them.  Or we could just move out of line of sight and they will have to come all the way down the hallway into melee range.  Or they might just go back to sleep, in which case we can just approach from the other direction.

Maerk's not just standing there taking nails, he's too far down on HP to do that anyway. Everyone seems to have missed that part of my post. No big deal, but I don't think we have a very good way to fight these things unless we use some strategy like Nez mentioned. We need a fireball! (or three)

I don't think these things are going anywhere, I think they're probably gonna hang out where they are. Let's be smart about this.

Is it possible to get some holy water in town? A Holy Hand-grenade or something? Hire a cleric to turn them?

Oh hmm I DID miss that.  My apologies.   And I have such good rolls too lol.

Turning undead is NOT as it used to be.  They have not just fail a save, but critically fail it.

Anyway. I will edit when we decide what's shakin.. lol

They're not, currently, trying to get at us through the door, so Maerk could certainly open it quickly to give everyone a chance to fire off their volley, but the monsters are probably holding their attacks for just that sort of thing, so...

They've got us out-gunned in this arrangement. We've gotta come up with a different plan. Maybe sneak around behind them and attack while they are throwing nails down the hall?

From what they observed, the helmets can fly around the same speed as a person (25ft per Stride)

Yala's mother is a cleric and would certainly sell holy water. Perhaps even provide it for free given her daughter is part of the group. Keep in mind that this would take about an hour or so once again. At this time you do not know if there is any kind of time limit. In fact as mentioned you've technically completed all your objectives and are just exploring to for loot/plunder/answers to what the heck is going on.

Hiring a cleric would be possible although keep in mind you do have a cleric in the party.

When you cast your heal spell either targeted or as an AoE the undead take half damage on a successful save. Full damage on a failed. Double damage on a crit fail.

They do seem currently content to just sit and drift in and out of cover firing nails down the hall although at that distance they don't seem particularly effective. That being said the helmets don't seem in any rush to engage anyone.

In regards to the table idea, it will provide greater cover (+4 AC) but it will work both ways as you the party will have to shoot past the giant table as well.

Someone make it so!

Hmmm.  Looking at the map, I guess we took that hit but did not yet charge into the room.  We should regroup and start again, perhaps from the other side.

I think we need to heal Maerk

Right.  That's pretty much what I meant by 'regroup.'

Wait, I'm confused, I thought the door was still closed. Who opened the door?

We need at least one more... heck, Maerk needs one just for himself!

Maerk (if healed and makes his save) can charge with the table on his next turn and get us down the hall. I feel like we're risking a lot. Let's go back to town, pick up some holy water and another healer and some gasoline and road flares and come back and do this right... I like the table idea, but Maerk just lost a third of his HP from a lucky shot from these things!

So I say we do the following:

• Withdraw
• Go to town
• Get Holy Water and Molotovs
• Find an extra Healer
• Come back and do the table idea

And I say we handwave the RP of it all. I think these things are guardians, it's not like they're gonna wander off. We can have some of the Gobs watch the entrance to see if anyone/anything enters while we're away. I'd like to think we could be ready to go early tomorrow morning?

Well, now you have me all worried about the Onyx Dog.  What if she isn't still there when we come back?  Surely our healers can patch you up for one more assault.  :-)

Where is the onxy figuring going to go?   Nothing else is getting in that room.

Can you TK it out of there?  I have some pretty good things against undead.  But I can barely use them for needing to keep the party on it's feet lol (Mostly Maerk, which is fine.  That's what I'm here for.  But I can't do much else).   I agree that it would be nice to have another Cleric here.  I can and will use my last heal on Maerk, and I think we can both use Field Medicine on him yet.

Also.. they're not going anywhere.  To be honest, do we NEED to clear this room at all?  They aren't leaving the room and we can go around it.

I do have one more flask of holy water left.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:57, Sat 06 Mar 2021.

Oh!  Great idea!

For the record, I was hoping that the table, turned up on its side and nearly filling the corridor, would be 100% cover and no attacks could be made either way.  With that as a complete block, we could all walk down to the point where it opened up and everyone would be able to get into the combat in the same round.  To be fair, GM did warn us that it was only +4 AC cover.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:30, Sat 06 Mar 2021.

The Onyx dog statue is inside the room (AP25) and due to the angles involved you would have to get to about AO32 to establish line of sight on it.

The Fort save was against Pain?  I seem to recall that, but I'll change my post if my recollection is incorrect.

Just checking, did I get the benefit of cover?  I did say that I would only open the door "just a crack."

Yeah you got the full +4 bonus to AC. They rolled a 27 to hit which is why you were only hit and not crit.

Let's go rest up. Maerk can shield rush once he's healed and get in there. Let's get some holy water, some sort of blessing for pain and fear, and do this right. We're just spinning our wheels.

Is this the last place down here we have to explore? If so, let's just post some goblin guards so nobody comes to loot steal.

There are still four more unopened doors. (refer to map)

A,B,C are unexplored doors leading to "monsters" as the goblins describe it but they aren't able to provide any more details because the one scout they sent in was killed and didn't report back.

Finally there is D, the door that whoever set up the necromantic ritual used. Judging by the tracks there must be some other way in and out of the basement as they did not come through the staircase or secret door.

I agree with Maerk on resting up.

Secondly by looking at the larger map it seems that we could also assault the room from the other side too. Doing so would allow Yala to use her Alchemist Fires more effectively. Especially if I understand the map right and the room looks pretty much open from that entrance to the hallway.

Maerk's got 1 hp at the moment. If anyone can heal, great, let's check out door "D", otherwise let's head back to camp and/or town and get rested and geared up. I'm fine with montage until the next day in that case so as not to stretch things out another week.

I don't think we have enough healing to get you anywhere near full.  I'm for bugging out.

I think that once again we need to just pull back.  This thing absolutely requires at LEAST one more cleric lol.   We may also want to think long and hard on using fire.  We have no idea what these things are guarding.  Be a damn shame to destroy it just to get to it lol.

Not use fire?!?  Bite your tongue.

In reply to Nezaglomie (msg # 111):

Well, if we do go back and rest I can setup Frost Vial's instead of Alchemist Fire instead. :)

As a side note, I have A LOT of healing potions. Like 6. Still that's not enough to bring Maerk to full.

It looks like we're going to need Maerk healed up just to get out of the place.  At least the frogs are loud.

That's true, Maerk's at 1hp. I'm wondering if we could somehow lure the croakers into the chamber with the nail-throwers. Somehow get them to fight each other while we sneak out... A little Benny Hill action?

Also, there were tracks back in the room we were just in (was labeled door D) trying to table (heh...) the skull monsters. Those tracks seemed to indicate that the maker of said tracks didn't come through the area with the skull-monsters. I'm thinking there's gotta be another way out.

Based on Message #237 - there's gotta be something we're missing. I say we either try get the croakers to take the bait and fight the skull-monsters, or we take our chances and follow the tracks.

I can throw my last heal at Maerk and use treat wounds on top of it.

Make your medicine rolls. At this time you can attempt your first aid medicine checks but do them one at a time. Your time isn't being measured in second but you might also not have hours to sit here and have everyone first aid everyone.

I have a Medicine roll too and all 6 Elixir's of Life still.

@Maerk:  I doubt that following the tracks will be a cleaner way out than just getting through this one group of frogs.  They probably lead deeper in and not to an exit at all.

My reasoning is that the entrance we came in was a "secret" entrance, so whomever made the tracks, as well as the frog-folk, had to have gotten in from somewhere else...

Anyway, maybe let's try to stealth our way out somehow. If we can hide and wait for the frogs to go away from the exit, then we can either sneak out or make a dash for it like we did last time. I still like the idea of luring the frogs into the chamber with the skull-things, but I'm kind of at a loss as to how to pull that off.

We know where the real entrance was -- it is now collapsed when the goblins collapse the stairs on one of the big lizards.  If there are any other entrances, they are also secret.

If I can get to AB15 with two actions left (which means I have to start the round at AE18 or AF16), I can cast Burning Hands and catch them all for 2d6 of fire damage.  My other good option is to use Grease, which I can put under all of them.  If any of them fail their save, they won't get to act that round.  The Grease lasts for a minute, i.e. 10 rounds, and I can cast it from as far away as AB18.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:27, Wed 24 Mar 2021.

Hmm...  Grease, I wonder how that would go if I tossed an Alchemist Fire on it. :)

I don't know if it is that sort of grease, but it seems worth a try.

As per RAW, the grease created is not flammable. There are ways in 1e to make it flammable thanks to mythic tiers but sadly I do not know of a way to do it in 2e without researching a custom spell.

Is that where you really wanted to move Nez?

Yeah.  The problem with the west-most hallway is that they can see down it, so I can't get close enough without being spotted.

From here, I can cast Shield and Grease in the same round.  Grease will probably disable at least one of them for one round, possibly two, and it will give penalties even if they make their saves.

I don't really think they'll be fooled enough for Sul to draw them all the way down the hallway and be able to get out.  The GM has not been playing his enemies like video game characters, prepared to chase stupidly, so I doubt these will, either.

Also, we've dithered long enough.  If I were playing my barbarian character, he would already have charged in.  :-)  (He's not the brightest tool in the shed, but he can lift heavy things.)

Thank you, I think :)

Wait, don't I remember certain criticism for acting rashly and not 'according to plan'? Must not have been from you. :-P

Better get your butts movin' toward the door, we're in the soup now!

LOL.  Not from me.  I'm in the same boat as you, being criticized for not sticking with the plan.  Of course, I still contend that my change was justified.

Nope. It was from me. Why do I have a feeling that I'm going to be giving it again? lol

I'm just a gnome with the soul of a half-orc,
Oh gods, please don't let me be-ee thought a dork.

With apologies to The Animals.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxMZpNF3qN0

I'm an elf with the ingenuity of a tinker gnome, but with the soul of a orc. It must be the red hair. :) Damn those red heads, so aggressive. lol

Hmm.  I thought that a failed save against Grease would take them out for more than just one third of a round.  Sorry.

I can Produce Flame on them all (and miss Maerk) or we could just run for it.  I'm happy either way.  (And I'll actually go along with the consensus.  :-)  )

Since he croaked, not the in our favor king either, I say we run. Half the party go first while the other half keeps them busy then follows.

Map's too zoomed-in for me to tell, can Maerk make it this round to AF,19 by looping below and coming up behind the monkey? I'll be wanting to sneak up on it, or at least get partial cover from the corner so I can rush it next round...

I think it took Sul almost a full round to get all the way around the last time.

It would take about 3 strides, give or take. ~70' of movement. I will leave it more zoomed out next time.

I've re-uploaded the map zoomed out for you.

Gaah.  You've healed the crap out of Alak.  Now it's going to be a lot harder to kill him.  I had a plan to get him to give his shield to Maerk, on the pretense of him checking Maerk's form when using the shield, then we all attack him.  I figured that we could kill him with a surprise round and he would not even have a chance to retaliate.  But all you goody two-shoes would probably object to killing someone who had been tricked in that way.

You do realize Yala is good aligned and would never go along with that, right?

There is law, and chaos, but outright murder just to take someones gear is evil. :)

It's not to take his gear.  It's because he is going to try to kill us as soon as this spell is over; and I'd prefer he not succeed.  Taking his gear is just a bonus.
This message was last edited by the player at 03:15, Wed 12 May 2021.

In reply to Nezaglomie (msg # 141):

There is always another way. Purposely marching him to his death is not the way. :) You'd never get or convince Yala to sign off on that. lol

Not to mention she already feels sour about the entire situation that Za is causing anyway. The mouthed apology is the only reason she has kept quiet and been considering how to fix the situation when the spell ends. Don't worry, death will not come to us yet.

Well, I actually thought that the hellknight helmets would probably not attack him.  I was just prepared not to lose any sleep over it if I turned out to be wrong, nor to lose access to his gear.  I'm less confidant the that they won't attack me when I'm holding his sigil, though I did say that I was entering the room, partly in order to test out that theory.  (GM?  Do we have confirmation?)

Anyway, I could always send him on his way before the time runs out, but that seems a bit of a shame.  His AC is three points better than the best we have, which means some good armor that I'm sure Maerk would like.  In a fair fight, he's going to take down at least one of us, probably two before we can bring numbers to bear enough to incapacitate him.  With a 22 AC, even with flanking bonuses most of us need to roll well to hit him, and we could easily all whiff for a couple of rounds.  Maybe we could just group tackle him -- I don't know how the PF2 grapple rules work, whether they allow for a multiple-person grapple attack to lock someone down.  (I'm not sure how to do that in PF1, either.)

Which brings me back to my first and initial comment on the subject. lol

Also, we have the rest of the keep to go through. Who's to say that there is not better armor in other area's we've not looked at up above? We rushed through the entire thing above and skipped a lot of it. We do not have to do an evil act to get better armor.

And we can prevent him from attacking us without a fight. At least one member of the party has a few decent social skills. I won't mention their name (Yala).

Did we skip a bunch?  I thought that this was the entrance that they expected us to use, since the other was blocked off.  I'm definitely against skipping large areas.

Maerk's not entirely sure what's going on with Alak. He's trusting his companions to this point. As far as Alak will know when he snaps out of the spell, we've not looted anything from the tombs, we've just used him to help us exact vengeance on the monkeys and froggies. There are still some parts of the tomb to explore before the spell wears off. Nez could make a pretense of "making sure there are no further grave-robbers lurking" around down here...

Maerk's pretty good at grappling if the dang dice-roller didn't hate him!

You guys skipped the entire first floor. For whatever reason you made a direct beeline to the goblins and then a beeline to the second floor. It is a good thing we switched to milestone leveling as you would have been severely underleveled for the second floor. As is you're fairly under equipped which is why the mobs have been wrecking face :P

Oh!  I thought that the point was to go straight to the goblins, because our purpose was to save them.  From there, we just went to what seemed to me the obvious spot.  (Can you tell that I don't really pay attention to this stuff?  Sorry about that.)  I'm totally happy with going back and cleaning up the first floor.  Perhaps when we head out and tell the goblins that we've cleaned up their former living area, they will give us a hint that there are still some problems in this other place?

I've uploaded the mega map to show all the areas unexplored and help you with planning.

We still have doors A, B, C and D to check down here too. That being said though, we might want to check the rest of the 1st floor before we look over behind those doors.

We accomplished our goals here, we can clear out what may be the easier area's first, then use items we gain from them to strengthen ourselves to clear the area in the basement the Goblins said had the monsters we've not cleared yet to give them more space.

I think this sounds like a good plan.

Didn't the goblins promise us a reward if we clear out their living area?  I think it's time to collect.  I don't really think that Alak is going to be all that sanguine about sending the goblins down there, though.  Perhaps we need to deal with him before we meet the gobbos.
This message was last edited by the player at 22:29, Fri 14 May 2021.

He either needs to go away or die trying...

We'd best clear the whole tower and then claim reward. Although Maerk certainly needs another shield or three, and some healing potions would make sense... if we end up going to town first.

Just as a reminder Calemont claimed he was looking for some kind of "elf gate" in the basement.

Hmm, I definitely forgot that. What is an elf gate exactly? I feel like Sularius should know that.

They are a magically crafted stone arch that allows the long distance transportation accross a planets surface.

https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Elf_gate

Many elves look at the term "elf gate" as vulgar and instead use aiudara.
This message was last edited by the player at 23:16, Mon 17 May 2021.

Keep in mind that unless you have a specific tie to elven lore you might not even know about them but yes, the elves have or at one point had a giant teleportation network that let them connect their far flung cities together.

Just posting a relevant block of rules:

So if we are all swilling beers when the spell wears off we should be good!

Everyone! To the bar!

Considering Sularius has the Elven Lore feat and the skill trained, not to mention being trained in Arcana, can he be assumed to know about them?

Actually pretty much all elves know of the Elf Gates, espcially the Mordant Spire and Aiudeen elves. What they do not know is the lore behind their creation and the truth about them that they are based on another type of teleportation gate. But all elves know about elf gates in general.

This being said, we should be able to even come clean with him without telling him he was charmed even. Just tell him we were afraid of what he might do if we told him the truth and leave the charm part out of it.

Hmmm.  I really don't think that will work.  I am actually pretty skilled at deceit (charisma skill, and I've maxed it), and I'm glad to let the story we have lie there and just let the charm wear off.  I'm pretty sure that if we say I lied to him about being a follower of Asmodeus, then somebody's gonna die, and it might be me.

I don't. Frankly this whole thing will fall apart the moment, or if, he goes with us to Breachill. And killing him for no reason is an evil act. Coming clean IS the only direct and good path to solve this.

Just because someone is a Hellknight does not mean they are a follower of Asmodeus. The only requirement to be a Hellknight is ANY lawful alignment.

This message, #368


Was in response to this, which was private to me in the message right before it.

In reply to Nezaglomie (msg # 165):

I missed that! LOL! I was busy with work during that period.

Still, killing you for a lie is not a lawful act. Asking you for some recompense on the other hand would not be to far fetched. You lied to him, out of fear for what he was, however Yala did ensure he did not die and remained of good health the entire time. He will not kill you, but like I said, the likelihood of wanting something for the lack of judgement isn't far fetched.

That being said, killing him for all of this is blatantly evil. Yala is not evil. Worse, being a follower of Shelyn she'd never condone such a blatant act. One of Shelyn's edicts is to be peaceful. The only reason she begrudgingly went with the lie in the first place is she see's the magic statue Za has as a piece of art and another of Shelyn's edicts is to save art. Another of her edicts is to lead by example, and it's time she did that.

While he may not hurt us for a lie, he very likely will hurt us for breaking into a hellknight castle. And I'm assuming we're not just going to say "oh, well since you're here to claim your castle, well just leave now."

Again I highly doubt that one too. We did not break into it and was tasked by the town to clear out monster's and save the goblins that reside in it. Further, if he does choose to attack us at that point then it gives us cause to defend ourselves at which point we are not committing an evil act at that point.

I swear to the kitten god Fluffy-No-Nose this is the only party I have been in that only thinks the worst about every situation that they are in.
This message was last edited by the player at 01:06, Wed 19 May 2021.

Oh, well if Fluffy-No-Nose is involved...!

Seriously, I think you're nuts.  I think he's going to attack as soon as the Charm is off him if he knows he was lied to and that we're trying to help the goblins move back into his castle.

GM, Can we hit 'Save Game,' play it forward Yala's way, and then, after the total party wipe, go back to our saved game?  :-)

How about a compromise?  I'll admit that we aren't exactly servants of Asmodeus but claim that we're glad to work with him to help restore the castle to its former glory.  We'll just be a little silent (or even straight up lie) on who's going to be in charge of the restored castle when we're done.

I'm done with this. Do what you want. I can tell you from experience he'd of never attacked the party, at all. We should of never casted the spell on him in the first place.

Like I said, this is the ONLY group I have ever played with that thinks the worst of EVERY situation they get involved in. That's why we all always end up in these long debates about what to do next.

So do whatever you want. I'll have Yala walk away as you all die. I care not anymore she will not be part of an evil act. Hell, charming him against his will goes against what she feels but the only reason she went along with it was her god!

And the goblin's in charge of the castle? They are not going to be in charge of the keep. We are not placing them in charge of it, they live in the basement, even they said they want no part of the rest of it.

It's no wonder my friend simply just vanished from this game, and keeps apologizing to me on Discord for it.

I will say it loudly. HE WILL NOT ATTACK ONCE THE CHARM WEARS OFF. The rules of charm is the victem does not even know that they were charmed, therefore if we come clean about our lie WHILE he is still charmed then we will be okay. For the love of freaking god.

Hey.  This is meant to be fun.  I did not intend to make you so angry, and I apologize for it.  Let's try it your way.  If it works out, I'm glad to admit I was wrong, and if it doesn't, I'm OK with that.  It's just a game, after all.  The worst that will happen is we have to make new characters.

I did say in character that you should go ahead and I'll follow your lead.  I suggested at the end that we keep up the pretense, but I'm going to follow along even if you don't.

I'm sorry I got upset too. I should learn to control myself better, it's just frustrating sometimes! lol

Most times I do love gaming with you guys. :) It's just once in awhile we hit these points that frustrate me to no end is all. I'll work harder to voice out my frustration in a calmer manner. :)

And you are right, you did say in character you would.

I think part of my frustration too is I wanna play a Starfinder game, but finding one that's pbp or even online period is hard. lol
This message was last edited by the player at 03:10, Wed 19 May 2021.

We're in much better shape now than we were when we met Alak, HP wise. I think we can take him if he gets violent. ;-)

This is not Maerk's wheelhouse, so I'm just hanging back as a player, we've had lots of stabby, so I'm happy to watch the talky folk do their thing.

Just remember that if we were all sitting around a table this process would take 30 seconds and wouldn't be nearly so frustrating. PbP is different and these types of 'table-talk' get very drawn out.

All I care about at this point is that the XP ticker keeps a'rollin' on! :-P

Maerk and I will be over here swilling ale and pretending that we can understand each other. :)

*poke poke* It sounds in OOC like a course of action is decided, we just need someone to translate that into some IC posts...

Also if it helps Nez, the Hellknights abandoned this site years ago which is why it is falling apart and infested by monsters and goblins. While going in and desecrating tombstones might be one thing, just walking around and killing monsters is probably not going to be a death sentence.

THEN AGAIN it is very belieavable that Nez has heard fearsome stories about Hellknights and their twisted sense of "justice" which perfectly explains her reaction.

As a general note I have no issues with the current actions or discussions taking place (although remember to keep it civil :P). If I ever feel that the party is going off the rails I will call it out explicitly.

I have +8 diplomacy skill, if anyone wants me to try to talk to the wolf.  However, I don't see any reason to bother the beast.

How much XP is a Warg worth?
}:)

None because you're using milestone XD

On the road, post tomorrow, Maerk will Javelin, Move to intercept, Raise Shield...

So, I don't get a couple of points of cover for being under the table?  If I had known that, I would have cast Shield instead of moving.

Also, Yarr said "He takes a fully defensive position between Neza and the bat," so he should have gotten an attack (plus, he should be right next to me).

Yeah, I know I didn't get my post in last night, got home very, very late, but I hopefully made my intent known in the post above.

Also, Maerk's got AoO as a reaction and can use his shieldboss for it!

Also, I know that the giant bats attack someone who attacked them, but how did the bat know that it was I who attacked it?  Is it really intelligent enough to know that I cast a spell, and then that chunk of wood flying to it from over near Maerk was caused by me?

Casting spells are generally not subtle and Telekinetic Bond is both somatic and verbal so in its mind Nez made a bunch of movement and commotion and then it got hurt.

I should know better than to ask a second question before the first one is answered.

The bat isn't moving past him. It's dive bombing you from above. I just scattered the pawns around the room because against an aerial enemy formation fighting doesn't really matter unless you guys are rocking a bunch of reach weapons.

As for the table as cover it would smash right through it. It's navigating more on sound than eyesight and a rickty rotten table isn't going to stop a horse-sized bat.
This message was last edited by the GM at 05:19, Tue 09 Nov 2021.

Fair enough.  Thanks for the reply.

:-)

Wasn't there some meat from something we killed? A big lizard or something maybe? Maerk will "deliver" the tribute via air express!

Yeah you guys hit a big turtle thing with fire and roasted up some meat. It's not really fit for human consumption but you've been feeding it to the dogs.

@Yarr, you were in a flanking position but you're moving around the doll to try to get between it and Maerk?  Also, it has already taken its attack this round, so if you wait for it to attack again, that will be next round and you'll have missed an entire attack.

Of course, the hot-headed Za has no plans to wait for conversation.  Going to roll now...

Ugh.  Why does the dice roller hate me so?
This message was last edited by the player at 14:09, Fri 26 Aug 2022.

Still flanked I think based on Maerk's move. If all of that is unnecessary, Maerk would use his extra action to Raise his Shield. DICE!!!

Looking at the map, it seems as though we may have missed a secret door! Or maybe we tried and couldn't find it and I just don't remember. Anyway, just to the west of our current location, there are three hallways leading south. Two have doors, one appears to be a dead end...

We should check it on our way back to door Q, I think that's the last one remaining?

I would like to grab Nezaglomie and try to pull her out but I'm not sure if she is actually engulfed or if it is just a hand.
If I can grab her without sticking my hands into the Gelatin would it be a Grapple?

If she's engulfed then I'll just attack.

Just bumping this. If nobody says differently, let's follow this course of action.

Someone make some rolls then. Stuff posted here is for your coordination and planning but in general I just follow what is written IC.

Not sure what we want to do here... I'd propose we rest up where we're at, at least enough to recover a few spells or healing (ie 5e short rest, don't know if there's a pf2 equivalent) and then follow the tunnel back to town. As I recall, it's not crazy far. Maybe then we can decide about returning to the secret room or handwaving it or whatever. I know GM's been anxious for us to advance the game. ;-)

I am okay with whatever the rest of the party decides, but then I'm not down on spells or low on hp.

I'm fine with making another Diplomacy roll to Make and Impression on Roxie, but she asked what we want and I'm not sure what we do want.  We're done with the citadel, right?  So we don't have any need permission to go back down this way later.  What else would we want from her?

I was ready to leave, but now there is beer

I can't post until later, but I thought asking the owner about the tunnel might be worthwhile, especially if we can monetize it somehow...

As much a breaking and entering would probably piss off the council if we don't coy up with the goods, I'm wondering if we recon a little. Take turns maybe and see if Voz comes here or the tavern.

GM, want time of day is it? Are we doing this in broad daylight?

Maerk has good athletics and little patience... He could shoulder in the door.

Sularius should be able to pick the lock, which would be a bit less obvious.

I keep forgetting you're a ... Uh... That is... An *expert*!

I prefer the term archaeologist...

Sularius works for the Golarion equivalent to the Museum of London.

Exactly!

I actually remade the concept for Pathfinder Society, and ended up making him an Investigator with the Ancient Elf heritage for Detect Magic and Read Aura, and the Archaeologist background for the flavor.

Very similar concept, but a little different execution. What's nice is that the Investigator can also take the Trap finder class feat at first level, so he still has the skills for finding and disarming traps, and picking locks.

does anyone find it odd that I'M being the moderate voice of reason?

No because normally I am. :)

Also sorry about my silence the last couple weeks.

Now that I'm through 'the darkness' I'm getting caught up. Gotta say December through February is rough for me mentally with mental illness.

In reply to Yalandlara Vallindel (msg # 207):

Hey Yalandlara, glad you are doing a bit better. I have been struggling with depression for over 30 years. I didn't think that I had Seasonal Affective Disorder too until I moved from Vancouver where it is dark and dreary all winter to New Brunswick where even though it is much colder and the winter is longer the days are bright and there is so much more light (most of it reflected off the snow) through the dark months. I noticed a marked improvement in my mental health over the winter.

I haven't actually posted yet - sorry about that. This week my daughter is off school so next week I hope to get into things a bit.

Yeah I live in Indiana. 18th for Depression in the US. So not good. We're pretty up there. But a lot of mine also stems from other things too, things from my past, my time in the military, etc etc.

Hmm...my first PF2 game was AoA and we got up to more or less where this group is now when the GM's schedule changed and I couldn't play any more.

In that game one of the first things we did was nose around this place and IIRC I got a spear through my foot :-/

I'll avoid using any of my meta knowledge for this bit. I do actually remember some of it as I was taking notes for the group.

@GM:  Thanks for the primer on the Goblinblood Wars.  However, one bit missed is how long ago did they happen?  I was going to include a little personal flavor in my comment, something like, "My mother's uncle was killed in that war," but that may be ridiculous if we're talking about 150 years ago, or merely 10 years ago.

I see from this:  https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Goblinblood_Wars that they were in 4697 AR to 4701 AR, but I couldn't find anything that said what year it is now, for our characters.
This message was last edited by the player at 22:37, Sat 25 Feb 2023.

It technically varies from AP to AP but it seems like current year as of the Core rules is 4721.

If I'm understanding correctly, there's Dmiri, a half-dozen other half-orcs with weapons, and perhaps three others up on the platforms?

I need to know elevations. Are Dmiri and the other two above us on a platform? Is there room to run underneath the platform? Can the door to the cabin be seen from where Maerk is at? How high off the ground? Etc.

Yeah alrighty let's run through these questions:

Dmiri + 4 bandits are visible

The platforms at I14 and T16 are 10' off the ground with a visible rope ladder. Not low enough you can likely directly attack the people on it without some kind of enlargement spell but not ridiculously high up either.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=33

It counts as a ladder so the DC 10 is super easy but you want to roll anyway because a critical success means you can get up the entire ladder in a single move action. Otherwise a normal success means 2 actions to climb with a bit of wiggle on either side because the ladder eats up 20' of movement per 5' climbed.

The platform Dmiri is on is also 10' up off the ground and you can see the ladders on either side. There is another platform in the middle that goes up another 10'. The guard was originally located here but came down when Dmiri climbed up.

Yes you can run underneath the platform.

Yes the door to the shack is visible. I didn't go over Dmiri climbing up in her introduction, apologies for the confusion. She did not use the ladder but instead hopped up thanks to a very good climb score and using the tree at S11

I had thought that Dmiri was down on the ground with us.

Thanks GM, that was helpful. Lots of options on this map!

So can I attack the guy in N7 directly in front of me?

Yes.

Last call. I guess only Maerk gets an action this turn... :P

I thought I had jumped the gun last turn, and you applied it this turn.  I'm glad to go again if I can.

Maerk gets bonus XP!

When in doubt, just post anyway! I can handle if things are posted out of turn order. Anyway, let the game continue, it has stalled for too long!

Neza, I think that is a roll where you may want to spend a Hero Point to reroll your d20!

Oh!  Good idea.  GM, Can I do that?  That is, reroll the attack roll but keep the damage roll?  It's a little exploitative, I think, because you're supposed to decide whether or not to reroll the attack before you roll the damage at all.

Are we even using Hero Points in this game?  I noticed that my character sheet has no value in that slot, but that is likely just my oversight.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:24, Fri 26 May 2023.

Maerk should get a reflex AoO on Dmiri... I'll post IC tonight.