This thread is for character creation.

So I'm sure this will need tweaking and recommendations and I've never played GURPS before so I have no idea how viable this build is, but here's what I have so far for the would-be Dragon Slayer

KNIGHT [250] points
Attributes: ST 17 [70]; DX 14 [80]; IQ 10 [0]; HT 13 [30].
Secondary Characteristics: Damage 1d/2d; BL 39 lbs.; HP 14 [0]; Will 10 [0]; Per 10 [0]; FP 13 [0]; Basic Speed 6.00 [-15]; Basic Move 6 [0].

Advantages

Advantages:
Born War Leader 2 [10];
Combat Reflexes [15];
and High Pain Threshold [10].
Striking ST+1 [5]
Very Fit [15]
Hard to Kill 2 [4]
Hard to Subdue 2 [4]
Fearless 1 [2]

Disadvantages: -20 points chosen from among
 Code of Honor (Chivalry)[ -15],
 Obsession (Slay Dragon) [-5*],
Another -15 points chosen from among those traits or
 Honesty [-10*],
 Sense of Duty (Adventuring companions) [-5].

Primary Skills:
Brawling (E) DX+1 [2]-15 or Boxing (A) DX [2]-14;
 Fast-Draw (any) (E) DX+1 [1]-15†;
 Knife (E) DX [1]-14;
 Sumo Wrestling (A) DX [2]-14.
 One of
 Thrown Weapon (Spear),all (E) DX+2 [4]-16;
 Throwing, (A) DX+1 [4]-15;
24 points in these skills:
 Lance 17,
 Riding (Horse) 17,
 Spear‡ 18,

Secondary Skills:
Armoury (Body Armor or Melee Weapons) (A) IQ+1 [4]-11
Connoisseur (Weapons) (A) IQ+1 [4]-11 ;
Leadership (A) IQ+1 [1]-11§;
Strategy (H) IQ+1 [2]-11§;
Tactics (H) IQ+1 [2]-11§;

Background Skills:
 Forced Entry (E) DX [1]-14;
 Climbing DX-1 [1]-13;
 Stealth DX-1 [1]-13;
 First Aid (E) IQ [1]-10,
</quote>

HP rises with ST, so its 17

Your skill list is missing shield.

I'm surprised to see thrown weapon favored over crossbow, given this matchup. Also, you only get one ranged skill, not both thrown weapon and throwing, at least for the initial 250 points.

Any particular reason you went for sumo over wrestling?

You've still got [50] points to spend on power-ups.

10 more points in born war leader can go a huge way, raising those skills from 11 to 13. Be aware your opponent will have 14 in tactics.

Skill matters a lot in gurps combat, so you may want to pump a weapon skill or possibly raise DX.

EDIT: You don't need both lance and spear. Actually, if you look at Knightly mounted combat on page 175-176 of martial arts, it becomes very clear: two styles are shown, one using spear, one using lance.
This message was last edited by the GM at 15:12, Thu 27 Sept 2018.

Here is a squire, if anyone wants him

Watchtower Walter [148] (2 unspent)
attributes (115)
ST 13 [30] DX 13 [60] IQ 10 [0] HT 12 [20]
HP 13 [0] Will 10 [0] Per 12 [10] FP 12 [0]
Basic Speed 6 [-5] Basic Move 6 [0]

Advantages:(25)
Born War leader 1 [5]
Enhanced Block [5]
combat reflexes [15]

Disadvantages (-45)
Compulsive Vowing [-5]
Code of Honor (Chivalry) [-15]
Sense of Duty (Companions) [-5]
Selfless [-5]
Callous [-5]
Truthfulness [-5]
Intolerance (Evil Religions) [-5]

Skills(53)
Brawling (E) DX [1] -13
Fast Draw (sword) (E) DX [1] -13
Wrestling (A) DX [1] -13
Lance (A) DX+2 [8] -15
Broad Sword (A) DX+1 [4] -14
Shield (E) DX+2 [16] -18

Armoury (Body Armor) (A) IQ [2] -10
Connoisseur (Weapons) (A) IQ [2] -10
Leadership (A) IQ [1] -10
strategy (H) IQ [1] -9
tactics (H) IQ [1] -9
crossbow (E) DX [2] -14

riding (horse) (A) DX [4] -14
stealth (A) DX [1] -12
climbing (A) DX [1] -12
knife (E) DX [1] -13
animal handling (equines) (A) IQ [2] -10
observation (A) Per [4] -13

This is the 125 point version. The upgraded version will at least stick another 2 points into riding, and four points into shield. He will probably also boost per, and observation, and fill that role in the group. He should have a block score of 15 by the end. A cautious fellow, all things told.

He's been updated to 148 points. The last two are for weapon bond or signature gear or some other few useful perks.
This message was last edited by the GM at 14:39, Wed 03 Oct 2018.

I pumped DX up by two, switched Crossbow in for Spear because I remembered the dragon can fly, added Born War Leader and dropped melee spear and kept Lance, added Shield and Broadsword as well.

I used Sumo Wrestling because I thought it would give an edge against knockbacks, knock-downs and brute force shoving, which I figured were more likely to be encountered when fighting something the size of a dragon compared to more technical grappling skill. Again, new at the game, could be wrong.

KNIGHT [250] points
Attributes: ST 17 [70]; DX 16 [100]; IQ 10 [0]; HT 13 [30].
Secondary Characteristics: Damage 1d/2d; BL 39 lbs.; HP 14 [0]; Will 10 [0]; Per 10 [0]; FP 13 [0]; Basic Speed 6.00 [-15]; Basic Move 6 [0].

Advantages

Advantages:
Born War Leader 2 [10];
Combat Reflexes [15];
and High Pain Threshold [10].
Striking ST+1 [5]
Very Fit [15]
Hard to Kill 2 [4]
Hard to Subdue 2 [4]
Fearless 1 [2]

Disadvantages: -20 points chosen from among
 Code of Honor (Chivalry)[ -15],
 Obsession (Slay Dragon) [-5*],
Another -15 points chosen from among those traits or
 Honesty [-10*],
 Sense of Duty (Adventuring companions) [-5].

Primary Skills:
Brawling (E) DX+1 [2]-15 or Boxing (A) DX [2]-14;
 Fast-Draw (any) (E) DX+1 [1]-15†;
 Knife (E) DX [1]-14;
 Sumo Wrestling (A) DX [2]-16.
 One of
 Crossbow (E) DX+2 [4]-18;
24 points in these skills:
 Lance 18,
 Riding (Horse) 19,
 Shield 20,
 Broadsword 17

Secondary Skills:
Armoury (Body Armor or Melee Weapons) (A) IQ+1 [4]-11
Connoisseur (Weapons) (A) IQ+1 [4]-11 ;
Leadership (A) IQ+1 [1]-13§;
Strategy (H) IQ+1 [2]-13§;
Tactics (H) IQ+1 [2]-13§;

Background Skills:
 Forced Entry (E) DX [1]-14;
 Climbing DX-1 [1]-13;
 Stealth DX-1 [1]-13;
 First Aid (E) IQ [1]-10,
</quote>

It's good when you initiate shoves and slams and when resisting a shove or slam.  It's useless for resisting knockback or knockdown.

It's not a bad skill for a Knight who plans to shield bash foes.  It's not going to be 'great' against a dragon, but it will help.

What you have there is 148 points*.  Before you even think about any 'advancements'.

115 in Attributes, 25 in Advantages, -30 in Disadvantages, 38 in Skills.


*  You didn't fill out the Disads fully and need another -20 there and you spent an extra point in each of Leadership, Strategy, and Tactics.  Granted as it is now, just spending another 2 points in a skill would hit 150.






Which raises the cost of DX to 120 points.  IQ and DX cost 20 points per +1 above 10.  ST and HT cost 10, Per and Will cost 5 per +1 above IQ.

HP and FP cost 3 per +1 above ST and HT... and it's use full for you to buy up HP to at least 20, for Healing Potion purposes (also it increases when crippling hits take effect).

Let's take a look at your build...  Orange for where you miscalculated cost or just didn't include one, Aqua for 'questionable' choices.

KNIGHT [314] points
Attributes: ST 17 [70]; DX 16 [120]; IQ 10 [0]; HT 13 [30].
Secondary Characteristics: Damage 1d/2d; BL 39 lbs.; HP 14 [0]; Will 10 [0]; Per 10 [0]; FP 13 [0]; Basic Speed 6.00 [-15]; Basic Move 6 [0].

Advantages
Advantages:
Born War Leader 2 [10]; Combat Reflexes [15]; and High Pain Threshold [10].

Striking ST+1 [5]
Very Fit [15]
Hard to Kill 2 [4]
Hard to Subdue 2 [4]
Fearless 1 [2]

Striking ST +1 is only adding +1 to your Broadswords swing damage.  It's not a bad choice, I'm just pointing it out.

HtK and HtS:  This one is really a "it's your call".  Do you think you'll be rolling 16's on those checks?  I'd take 1 level of HtS and more HP over a second level of it or any HtK.  If you really are worried, I'd prioritize HtS over HtK.  Death checks don't get penalties, consciousness checks do.

Also, Very Fit is already giving you +2 to HT for any check either HtS or HtK will benefit (so you've already got a 15 HT for those), and there really is no reason to have a 17 for Death Checks (a roll of 17 always fails).  There is a marginal use to pumping Death Checks to 17 or above, but that's pretty much only useful for things like poisons or supernatural "and you die" checks that give a penalty to the Death Check (which are pretty rare).

Fearless 1 only raises your Will to 11 for Fright Checks and resisting Terror.  If you're worried about this at all, go all in to 14 (or at least 12).

Disads:  All solid.

Primary Skills:
Brawling (E) DX+1 [2]-15 or Boxing (A) DX [2]-14
One or the other (no real reason for both).

I recalculated these at DX 16:
Fast-Draw (any) (E) DX+1 [1]-17†
Your choice, but I recommend either Broadsword, Knife, or Crossbow bolt.
Knife (E) DX [1]-16
Sumo Wrestling (A) DX [2]-16
Crossbow (E) DX+2 [4]-18

I recalculated these based on (a) the skill level you said they were, (b) a DX of 16, and (c) the minimum required spent as per Knight Template (Broadsword):
Broadsword (A) DX+2 [8]-18
Lance (A) DX+2 [8]-18
Riding (Horse) (A) DX+3 [12]-19
Shield(E) DX+4 [12]-20

I'm not saying a Riding of 19 is bad.  But, it's not doing a whole "lot"... your melee and crossbow skills are maxed at your Riding level, but the Shield skill isn't.  Hands free riding is only a -3.

Secondary Skills:
Armoury (Body Armor or Melee Weapons) (A) IQ+1 [4]-11
Not that it really matters... but pick one or the other.

Connoisseur (Weapons) (A) IQ+1 [4]-11
Leadership (A) IQ+1 [1]-13§
Strategy (H) IQ+1 [2]-13§
Tactics (H) IQ+1 [2]-13§

I recalculated these at DX 16:
Background Skills:
Forced Entry (E) DX [1]-16
Climbing DX-1 [1]-15
Stealth DX-1 [1]-15
First Aid (E) IQ [1]-10




In conclusion:  If you drop Riding to 18, drop HtK and Fearless completely, drop HtS to 1 level, and pick either Brawling or Boxing you hit 300 points on the nose.

Also you can drop Shield to 18, take Enhanced Block and Weapon Bond (Broadsword), Weapon Bond (Crossbow), and Weapon Bond (Lance) and keep your Block of 14 and have all those skills at +1 with your 'favorite' weapons (useful if you dismount).
This message was last edited by the player at 07:30, Fri 28 Sept 2018.

Great advice, although I think I have to hit 250 instead? I'll make most of the suggested changes regardless.

Tried to make some changes, still a work in progress and in need of more recalculating.

KNIGHT [314] points
Attributes: ST 17 [70]; DX 16 [120]; IQ 10 [0]; HT 13 [30].
Secondary Characteristics: Damage 1d/2d; BL 39 lbs.; HP 14 [0]; Will 10 [0]; Per 10 [0]; FP 13 [0]; Basic Speed 6.00 [-15]; Basic Move 6 [0].

Advantages
Advantages:
Born War Leader 2 [10]; Combat Reflexes [15]; and High Pain Threshold [10].

Striking ST+1 [5]
Very Fit [15]]
Hard to Subdue 1 [2]
Hands Free Riding [3]</Aqua>

Striking ST +1 is only adding +1 to your Broadswords swing damage.  It's not a bad choice, I'm just pointing it out.

HtK and HtS:  This one is really a "it's your call".  Do you think you'll be rolling 16's on those checks?  I'd take 1 level of HtS and more HP over a second level of it or any HtK.  If you really are worried, I'd prioritize HtS over HtK.  Death checks don't get penalties, consciousness checks do.

Also, Very Fit is already giving you +2 to HT for any check either HtS or HtK will benefit (so you've already got a 15 HT for those), and there really is no reason to have a 17 for Death Checks (a roll of 17 always fails).  There is a marginal use to pumping Death Checks to 17 or above, but that's pretty much only useful for things like poisons or supernatural "and you die" checks that give a penalty to the Death Check (which are pretty rare).

Fearless 1 only raises your Will to 11 for Fright Checks and resisting Terror.  If you're worried about this at all, go all in to 14 (or at least 12).

Disads:  All solid.

Primary Skills:
Brawling (E) DX+1 [2]-15
One or the other (no real reason for both).

I recalculated these at DX 16:
Fast-Draw (Crossbow Bolt) (E) DX+1 [1]-17†
Your choice, but I recommend either Broadsword, Knife, or Crossbow bolt.
Knife (E) DX [1]-16
Sumo Wrestling (A) DX [2]-16
Crossbow (E) DX+2 [4]-18

I recalculated these based on (a) the skill level you said they were, (b) a DX of 16, and (c) the minimum required spent as per Knight Template (Broadsword):
Broadsword (A) DX+2 [8]-18
Lance (A) DX+2 [8]-18
Riding (Horse) (A) DX+2 [8]-18
Shield(E) DX+2 [8]-20

I'm not saying a Riding of 19 is bad.  But, it's not doing a whole "lot"... your melee and crossbow skills are maxed at your Riding level, but the Shield skill isn't.  Hands free riding is only a -3.

Secondary Skills:
Armoury (Melee Weapons) (A) IQ+1 [4]-11
Not that it really matters... but pick one or the other.

Connoisseur (Weapons) (A) IQ+1 [4]-11
Leadership (A) IQ+1 [1]-13§
Strategy (H) IQ+1 [2]-13§
Tactics (H) IQ+1 [2]-13§

I recalculated these at DX 16:
Background Skills:
Forced Entry (E) DX [1]-16
Climbing DX-1 [1]-15
Stealth DX-1 [1]-15
First Aid (E) IQ [1]-10




In conclusion:  If you drop Riding to 18, drop HtK and Fearless completely, drop HtS to 1 level, and pick either Brawling or Boxing you hit 300 points on the nose.

Also you can drop Shield to 18, take Enhanced Block and Weapon Bond (Broadsword), Weapon Bond (Crossbow), and Weapon Bond (Lance) and keep your Block of 14 and have all those skills at +1 with your 'favorite' weapons (useful if you dismount).
</quote>

the knight is 300. You build a 250 point character, then add 50 points.

I'm actually not getting 314 points for the knight. I see 205 on attributes, 50 in advantages, 51 in skills, and -35 in disadvantages. At least in post 5. Yes, I counted the DX as 120. Did you count the reduced speed? Also, The if



You're correct about the extra points in the warleader skills. fixed.

Yes, his disadvantages are not fully selected. The amount still to be selected is clearly marked. As I said:



If you wish to push for this to change, feel free. I'm mostly trying to get the battle underway quickly. Also, If you or anyone else wants to alter shielded eyes, feel free.

Dblade:
Leadership, tactics, and stratedgy should all still be at 11, not 13.
When you raise DX, basic speed should rise with it.

Ah well now I'm confused. So, I wasn't over the pointbuy count in that case? I'll still make the adjustments to better streamline the character but now I'm left wondering what else I've missed and how to best use it...Also do people think wrestling would benefit more than Sumo? I can't help but think it'd be inadvisable to attempt to grapple the dragon by main force...

This message was deleted by the player at 18:52, Fri 28 Sept 2018.

I've got my martial arts guy here. let me know what you think

https://drive.google.com/open?...BaswB7yajfaER0j5owwC

Exactly.  My suggestions Dblade came as there is the base 250 point Knight in the post, with more points added on.




My accounting (of post #5):
220 Attributes¹
65 Advantages²
-50 Disads³
69 Skills⁴

1 - Accounting for DX 16
2 - Counting Striking ST here, did you count Born War Leader 2 [10], Combat Reflexes [15], High Pain Threshold [10], Striking ST+1 [5], Very Fit [15], Hard to Kill 2 [4], Hard to Subdue 2 [4], and Fearless 1 [2]?  I think you might have missed either Combat Reflexes or Very Fit.
3 - Negative Attributes are supposed to count against the Disad limit so I always count them here.
4 - Accounting for the increase of Shield to skill 20 and Riding to 19 (both cost 12 points not 4 or 8) and not allowing Broadsword to be decreased from the Knight Template base.  In other words more than "24 points in these skills" was spent and Sheild was bumped up 8 points from Template.



I took that as "you don't have to take them, but then won't get the points".  Having disads on sheets can affect the battle as much as not getting the points for disads not taken.

Otherwise you may as well raise the point allowance and disallow taking the full disad allowance.


Born War Leader +2.


Good catch, I missed that.

So 10 points.  Hmmm.

There are some things I'd ask about...  Are we using Martial Arts?  Can the Dragon have prepared the field (ie traps)?

Ok, this is quick and I'm coming back to it, but settling things quickly:


Its a template. Though I will admit I'm not accustomed to playing with disadvantage limits.


It was very fit that I skipped. good catch.



Yep, there is the rest of the discrepancy.



that was not what I meant. If you feel strongly that the disads should be chosen, we can move to that. I find that very few disads effect combat, but you've probably run more combat than I have.

Yes, we are using martial arts. I try to answer such questions in the first few posts:



Traps... hmm. The dragon may not buy any supplies from town or hire laborers (or goblin minions), but he may otherwise prepare the field as he sees fit.

When and how my brain functions is one of those "not always" things.  :)


Mwuahahahahahaha!

Can I take a few disads for some extra skill points (or other advantages within reason)?  The disads would be combat applicable, like Lame, or Hard of Hearing, or the like.


If we go with a map and a few other things (traps, disads, etc) we could give the Knight and each of his Squires a single social check to gather information to prepare for the fight.  Such things like "What type of breath weapon it uses, What weaknesses the town's folk may have noticed, Does it use magic at all, How long since it last feed, Is it diurnal or nocturnal, Is it a trapbuilder or a hunter, etc".  What ever seems like a useful tidbit of information.

Was able to find and use Vulco's character sheet as a basis for my own Martial Arts character for the duel, would really, really appreciate feedback as I'm sure there's stuff I haven't done right. Wanted to test how viable I can make Tai Chi Chuan.

https://drive.google.com/open?...uJIqV4hDPrCG8MUa4Bwg

I found the sheet really helpful in organizing and helping me keep track of my points like I keep screwing up with the Knight. Might use it to do the Knight properly in the coming days.

Nice! Glad it was helpful to ya. I don't see why tai chi chuan couldn't kick butt

I'd lean against it, but its quite doable, and I'll let dblade make that call.

The Knight

OK, I hope this is a clean version of the knight so far:

Knight [285]
Attributes(220): ST 17 [70]; DX 16 [120]; IQ 10 [0]; HT 13 [30].
Secondary Characteristics (-15): Damage 1d/2d; BL 39 lbs.; HP 14 [0]; Will 10 [0]; Per 10 [0]; FP 13 [0]; Basic Speed 6.50 [-15]; Basic Move 6 [0].

Advantages(60):
Born War Leader 2 [10]
Combat Reflexes [15]
and High Pain Threshold [10]
Striking ST+1 [5]
Very Fit [15]
Hard to Subdue 1 [2]
Hands Free Riding [3]

Disadvantages (-35):
 Code of Honor (Chivalry)[ -15]
 Obsession (Slay Dragon) [-5]
 Honesty [-10]
 Sense of Duty (Adventuring companions) [-5]

Skills(55)
Primary Skills(38):
Brawling (E) DX+1 [2] -17
Fast Draw (Sword) (E) DX+1 [1] -17*
Knife (E) DX [1] -16
Summo Wrestling (A) DX [2] -16
Crossbow (E) DX+2 [4] -18
Lance (A) DX+2 [8] -18
Riding (Horse) (A) DX+2 [8] -18
Broadsword (A) DX+2 [8] -18
Shield (E)DX+2 [4] -18

Secondary Skills (13):
Armoury (Body Armor) (A) IQ+1 [4]-11
Connoisseur (Weapons) (A) IQ+1 [4]-11 ;
Leadership (A) IQ+1 [1]-11§;
Strategy (H) IQ+1 [2]-11§;
Tactics (H) IQ+1 [2]-11§;

Background Skills(4):
Forced Entry (E) DX [1]-16;
Climbing DX-1 [1]-15;
Stealth DX-1 [1]-15;
First Aid (E) IQ [1]-10,

*+1 from fast draw included
§+2 from born war-leader included


Changes:

• I chose brawling over boxing. No reason.
• I chose Fast draw to apply to swords, as after a charge with a lance drawing a sword is a good idea.
• I made the following to make point expenditures more clear:
• I raised broadsword to its minimum of 18.
• I dropped riding to its minimum of 18.
• I dropped shield to its minimum of 18.
• I chose armory (body armor) over armory (melee weapons). No reason.
• I corrected the levels on strategy, tactics, and leadership to match shown point expenditures.

I hope this is easier for folks to work with!
This message was last edited by the GM at 12:49, Tue 02 Oct 2018.

What style is he?

He's missing -20 point in disadvantages and an equal number of those points in skills. He should have 50 points in his chosen style and 9 secondary an background points. plus the style familiarity perk. Unless you used a template that wasn't the contender, and I don't think you did.



You are also missing the second -20 in disadvantages! you should also increase your HT by 2, which will balance things out. You have the perk, which is nice.

Yes, automatic sheets are nice for counting points. I receive many kinds of sheets from players, and I've gotten used to doing my own accounting of the points, so I often just list things in plain text. GCS is a solid program though. I'm not sure if it has the DF templates built into it, but that would make building your knight even simpler.

No, I went through the contender template.  I must have missed that.  Style is karate. I'll make these changes and get back to you.  Thanks

Right, I think I was able to edit it as per the recommendations.

https://drive.google.com/file/...IrI/view?usp=sharing

please check it out and lemme know what you think.

Good idea for the point accounting, just note that Leadership, Strategy, and Tactics are +2 from Born War Leader and Fast-Draw is +1 from Combat Reflexes.

In reply to Vulco1 (msg # 25):

Which Karate style are you using?  I see you bought Hand Catch (awesome skill), but the only styles that have it are Italian Fencing, Viking Spear-Fighting, and Pro Wrestling.  Are we allowed to buy outside our styles?

If we were I wasn't aware of it.

Okay, I've got my character done, but... being in China, uploading to google docs is a total pain (downloading's just slow).  Is there a way for me to get around that?  In our last game, we all just e-mailed our character sheets to the GM.  Maybe I can e-mail it to someone to host?

ah yeah, I remember that from being in China, as well. I can't do email for this, but luck and later I'll try and remember what if any filesharing sites should still work for you through the Great Firewall.

I would say no, at least at first. Otherwise the premise "Contest of styles" becomes much weaker.




Edited to make note.

Nicole's martial artist:

https://drive.google.com/open?...ZzlLYVowTkprX19FQldr

You might want to edit that the bonuses are "not included" instead of just "included".

This message was deleted by the player at 15:50, Tue 02 Oct 2018.

I think that was a Judo Catch block, but that's been changed now.

https://drive.google.com/open?...ORyy8OXMORYRmos5J9Lg

I updated the character.

So, I feel like compared to Vulco and Nicole my character wound up having much lower skill levels. Was this just a result of the spread I had to work with? Also, how does Vulco's build have Ground Fighting if the style is pure Karate? None of the listed styles have Ground Fighting IIRC.

I see it listed in the martial arts book on page 64 and 152 as a skill Ground Fighting (Karate or Wrestling). And Karate does have a few ground fighting techniques in real life but certainly not as many as Jujitsu or wrestling. I didn't pick a specific style from the book, instead I just picked a few moves and invested in them.

As I'm reading it, the Contender build allows you to spend and spread about 50 points on skills/skill levels.

I looked pretty quickly and it seems like there are more discrete styles and techniques listed for Karate than Tai Chi Chuan, but looking through the description of Tai Chi indicates that you can justify just about any pushing, pulling or grappling technique or counter attack. So I think if you wanted to, you could do what I did and just raise those levels.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:35, Tue 02 Oct 2018.

Uhh, as I understood it, we're supposed to be doing the styles according to each style's template, not just picking and choosing according to what we feel suits each.

I was also just wondering, since I was investing in fewer techniques, how did I wind up with such comparatively low skill levels. I suppose since I picked a few more cinematic ones and fewer that fed directly off my main combat skill of Judo, I probably had less returns.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:49, Tue 02 Oct 2018.

Please pick a style and go with it. The premise for that combat is "Which style has the best fighter". We use fairly strictly limited templates for most of these fights, with occasional customization. The styles are core to character creation here.

You got it.  Will make the update soon

In seriousness, I have no idea if my Tai Chi Chuan build is bad or not. I guess I'll just wait and see and try my hand at a different style or build if it flops.

I'm probably going to join the martial arts fight, and will come up with a character in the next day or so.  I'll read the other threads if work allows, and consider them.

Never done cinematic Martial Arts before.  Should be an interesting learning experience.

https://drive.google.com/open?...iNQ93LjN694I25FjSXtP

Updated.  Kyokushin Karate

Baogang looks pretty good to me.  I definitely don't see him getting thrown out of the ring, and he has a nice mix of striking and grappling so we'll see.

Ahh see Vulco, now it looks like your fighter has a more balanced spread of skills like mine does rather than a ton up at sixteen or seventeen in spite of me being able to only raise one that high. Makes much more sense. Anyways looks good and should definitely be a challenge, a dangerous striker for sure.

https://drive.google.com/open?...BdI-Ry2AnsRjVdXveVAu made a final tweak to Baogang. Gave him Ambidexterity and Fitness instead of Pressure Point Resistance, figured they'd be more generally useful.

Speaking of Ambidexterity, which exact rules are we using from Martial Arts?

Returning to this...  like I said above, either fill out the disads or "buy them off".  Or just up the character points and disallow disads beyond a certain point.


There are a lot of disads that can directly impact combat on the Squire's templates:  Bloodlust, Code of Honor, One Eye, Sense of Duty, Vow, Wounded, Charitable, Easy to Read, Fanaticism, Intolerance, Overconfidence, Selfless, Stubbornness.

The two physical ones directly, the mental and social ones impact the actions a PC takes.  Overconfident character's won't back out of a fight unless they are sure they will lose (even if they aren't at that moment winning), Charitable ones won't finish 'downed enemies', etc.

Even Easy to Read makes it easier for an enemy to glean tactical info from the PC (if the enemy bothers).

Some are clearly less applicable to combat, but if we have other parts to the scenario, like Gathering Information checks before going into the fight, slow stealthy approaches, purchasing gear, etc, then other mental/social disads can impact how much information the PC rolls into the fight with (Bully and Impulsive penalizing social rolls), whether they can make a slow stealthy approach (Impulsive, Overconfident), how much starting funds they have (Compulsive Gambling/Carousing, Charitable, Disciplines of Faith), etc.

Even something like Disciplines of Faith can impact how much FP someone might be down (lack of sleep from having to rise early for morning prayers or maintaining a vigil or fasting), or if they start wounded (if their faith requires a scourging to purify themselves before battle).


I don't know about that.  I've been running and playing GURPS since 1988, but I still encounter stuff I've overlooked or forgotten.

I have gotten good at making sure disads are actually disadvantaging though.  I've had lots of Players try to slide by those "not really a disad" disads.  And been that Player.   ;)


If you really want to though, just disallow any disad you can't immediately figure out how to penalize in combat.  That's literally the simplest method.

(In this case though, keep the classic Knight v Dragon disads; CoH (Chivalry), Obsession (Dragonslaying), physical disads, etc)

And here's another potential Squire:

Big Axel, the "Berserker"
Axel is a Northlander 'barbarian' who was beaten in single combat by Sir Knight.  He's vowed to follow Sir Knight until either of them dies.  Sir Knight has been doing his best to refine Axel into something more chivalrous... it's a work in progress.

ST 15 [50]; DX 13 [60]; IQ 10 [0]; HT 12 [20]
HP 18 [6]; Will 10 [0]; Per 10 [0]; FP 12 [0]
Basic Speed 6.00 [-5]; Basic Move 6 [0].
Damage 1d+1/2d+1; BL 45 lbs.

Advantages:
Born War Leader 1 [5]
Weapon Bond (Two-handed Axe) [1]

Disadvantages:
Bad Temper (15) [-5]
Bloodlust (12) [-10]
Code of Honor (Northlander’s)* [-5]
Bully (12) [-10]
Intolerance (Southlanders) [-5]
Overconfidence (12) [-5]
Stubbornness [-5]

Skills:
Brawling (E) DX [1]-13
Fast Draw (Throwing Axe) (E) DX [1]-13
Wrestling (A) DX [1]-13

Two-Handed Axe/Mace (A) DX+4 [16]-17‡

Armoury (Melee Weapons) (A) IQ [2]-10
Connoisseur (Weapons) (A) IQ [2]-10
Leadership (A) IQ*1 [1]-9†
Strategy (H) IQ-2 [1]-8†
Tactics (H) IQ-2 [1]-8†
Thrown Weapon (Axe/Mace) (E) DX+1 [2]-14

Forced Entry (E) DX [1]-13
Climbing (A) DX-1 [1]-12
Riding (Horse) (A) DX-1 [1]-12
Stealth (A) DX-1 [1]-12
Gesture (E) IQ [1]-10
Seamanship (E) IQ [1]-10
Hidden Lore (Dragons)§ (A) IQ-1 [1]-9
Carousing (E) HT [1]-12
Intimidation (A) Will-1 [1]-9
Survival (Mountains) (A) Per-1 [1]-9


* See Pirate Code of Honor, refluffed for the Great Frozen North
‡ +1 when wielding his personal Two-Handed Axe
† +1 for Born War Leader, not accounted.
§ Not normally an allowed specialty for Squires, but so what.  It fits the flavor.



Big Axel has 20 points unspent, all disads points have been used.  I recommend either +2 to ST or Weapon Master (Two-Handed Axe).  The ST boost would bump up his swing damage to 3d-1 (so 3d+2 instead of 2d+4*) and his HP up to 20, which is a pretty big milestone for healing (as well as bump up when a limb is crippled on him).

Weapon Master would make Rapid Strikes easier (-3 instead of -6) and give him +2 per die for his axe damage (2d+8* instead of 2d+4).


* Possible Two-Handed Axe damages:
2d+4 is min 6, max 16, average 11.
2d+8 is min 10, max 20, average 15.
3d+2 is min 5, max 20, average 12.

Off hand weapon training is valid, if that is what you are asking.

As a general rule, traits than can be bought in martial arts (with the exception of innate attacks) are valid. The extra options in chapter 4 of martial arts are in play (except for "matter of inches", limiting dodges, Harsh realism for unarmed fighters, and all of Realistic Injury except for new hit locations)

The Squire from page 4 has been updated: disadvantages have been chosen, skills purchased, up, and he's been named Watchtower Walter: cautious, observant, prone to vowing and a bit harsh on others. Shield is his highest skill, at 18.

Big Axel looks interesting. Not exactly a typical squire, but he may be useful against particularly large and armored foes.



I was born in 1988, starting playing gurps in 2011ish and most of my games are combat lite. So I think you've got more experience there!

I actually don't like people piling on the disadvantages, except for perhaps attribute penalties or "Racial disads" that define the physical limitations of the character's form. So a lot of the standard templates bug me, but templates are indispensable for playing this kind of game, so I'm getting used to them.
This message was last edited by the GM at 14:51, Wed 03 Oct 2018.

Thanks!

'E's a 'squire' in progress.  He'll either be good as the Knight's back-up, get in, lay down a few heavy hits, get out, or indispensable protecting the Hirelings (despite the fact that he'll be making fun of them for "being weak Southies that need protecting").


Wow, okay, yeah.  I've definitely been GURPSing longer (and rping longer, I started in '82 with AD&D).


For something like this I can almost agree with you.  i think those non-combat related disads can be drawn back into being applicable, but only if there is something else going on.  Like I said, pre-conflict info gathering, have disads affect resources for gear, etc.

Granted some social and mental disads will still affect combat, but those are more oblique and easier to 'game'.

Did anybody have a look to double-check my sheet?  Because if I'm good, and you're good, maybe we can start a match?

Sent my character to the GM, not sure if we're doing it public or private.  If we're doing it public then I might be able to.

Take a look, let me know if you see any errors.  He's listed as 205, but I have not added quirks yet.

-----

Name: Whisper
Race: Human

Attributes [89]
ST 12 [20]
DX 12 [40]
IQ 10
HT 12 [20]

HP 12
Will 10
Per 10
FP 15 [9]

Basic Lift 29
Damage 1d/2d-1

Basic Speed 6
Basic Move 6

Ground Move 6
Water Move 1

Social Background
TL: 3 [0]
Cultural Familiarities:
Languages:

Advantages [110]
Enhanced Dodge (4) [60]
Striking ST (1) [5]
Trained By A Master [30]
Very Fit [15]

Perks [7]
Clinch (Karate) [1]
Iron Legs [1]
Neck Control (Karate) [1]
Rapid Retraction (Kicks) [1]
Special Exercises (Striker, Crushing with Limb, Shin) [1]
Style Familiarity (Muay Thai) [1]
Technique Mastery (Knee Strike) [1]
Offhand Weapon Training (Kick) [1]

Disadvantages [-40]
Bad Temper (12 or less) [-10]
Code of Honor (Fight Fair) [-10]
Overconfidence (12 or less) [-5]
Pacifism (Reluctant Killer) [-5]
Stubbornness [-5]
Workaholic [-5]

Packages [0]
Muay Thai (Martial Arts) [0]

Skills [39]
Autohypnosis Will/H - Will-2 8 [1]
Breath Control HT/H - HT-2 10 [1]
Counterattack (Karate) Tech/H -  15 [5]
Elbow Strike (Karate) Tech/A -  14 [0]
First Aid/TL3 (Human) IQ/E - IQ+0 10 [1]
Intimidation Will/A - Will-1 9 [1]
Jam (Karate) Tech/H -  10 [0]
Karate DX/H - DX+4 16 [20]
Kicking (Karate) Tech/H -  15 [2]
Knee Strike (Karate) Tech/A -  15 [0]
Leg Grapple (DX) Tech/H -  12 [0]
Power Blow Will/H - Will-2 8 [1]
Push Kick (Karate) Tech/H -  13 [0]
Roll with Blow (Karate) Tech/H -  14 [0]
Running HT/A - HT-1 11 [1]
Savoir-Faire (Dojo) IQ/E - IQ+0 10 [1]
Spinning Kick (Karate) Tech/H -  13 [0]
Spinning Punch (Karate) Tech/H -  14 [0]
Streetwise IQ/A - IQ-1 9 [1]
Sweep (Karate) Tech/H -  13 [0]
Targeted Attack (Karate Kick/Leg) Tech/H -  15 [3]
Uppercut (Karate) Tech/A -  15 [0]

Stats [89] Ads [110] Disads [-40] Quirks [0] Skills [39] = Total [205]

Hand Weapons

Ranged Weapons

Armor & Possessions

Yep.  Me and Lane are ready to fight.

In reply to Vulco1 (msg # 56):

You wanna go up against my Smasha build?

I'm curious to see how Smasha flies to be honest.  Taken it a couple times and never used.

Sounds good.

Lane backs down to no one and feels Karate (kyuokushin specifically) is the best there is at putting the hurt on someone.  Lets do it.

I think I'm all set with my Tai Chi Chuan build too. Curious to see if I can do much with it, or I'll just get demolished XD

I've seen Smasha v Smashs a few times... those were brutal fights.

I wanted to see if I could figure out how to post the image and save the drive link step...

Too small,

The link is probably the way to go.

https://drive.google.com/open?...Xy114fxvWZvwTmVNHcmM

I left off the Hard to Kill +3 when I rebuilt this gut.  It's added to this updated sheet though.  That's the only change.
This message was last edited by the player at 20:37, Thu 04 Oct 2018.

Those PDFs are from Gurps Character Sheet. Its free, and its not too hard to use.

Whisper, you should have 101 points in advantages, perks, and attribute raises (possibly 106, given quirk points) and 59 in skills and techniques. you're missing the secondary skills, and be careful to count your advantage categories properly.

Vulco, I just noticed your cinematic skills have 5 or 6 points in them. You only get a bonus to skill at 1,2,4, and multiples of 4. So one cinematic skill could be 1 higher. Your fighter is legal but inefficient.

Good point.  I just noticed that too.  I'll probably tweak him a bit and see what happens.  Thanks

I've got an unorthodox martial artist to throw into the mix:

Shi Ze Pingbi, the Shaolin Monk

ST 11 [10] DX 11 [20] IQ 12 [40] HT 12 [20]
HP 11 [0] Will 12 [0] Per 12 [0] FP 11 [0]

Speed 5.5 [0]  Move 5 [0] Parry (Judo)-16

Advantages:
Trained by a master [30]
enhanced Parry (Judo) 4 [20]
resistant to chi abilities +8 [15]
Shaolin Kung Fu style [1]

Disadvantages:
Disciplines of Faith (Monasticism)[-10]
Wealth (Vegetarianism) [-5]
Pacifism (Cannot Kill) [-15]
Loner [-5]
Sense of Duty (Fellow Monks) [-5]

Judo (DX) H -18 [24]
Kiai (HT) H -16 [20]
Staff (DX) A -11 [1]
Karate (DX) H -10 [1]
Meditation (will) H -12 [4]
Philosophy (Buddhist) (IQ) H -12 [4]
Breath Control (HT) H -10 [2]
Savoir-Faire (Dojo) (IQ) E] -13 [2]
First Aid (IQ) E [1] -12
cooking (IQ) A [1] -11

Techniques:
Arm lock (Judo) A -20 [2]

He's probably a little overly focused on defense, but he does that extremely well. He is a proponent of using an opponent's energy against them, and of winning via throwing them out of the ring.

If I remember correctly I followed the template but GCA lumped everything together.  When I get time, I'll compare the build to the template to make sure the accounting is correct.  Pretty sure I got all the secondary skills right and all that as well.

Pingbi looks pretty good. May be tough to beat.

Pingbi looks good, a little surprised you went with Shaolin style when a 'soft'/'internal' style like T'ai Chi Chuan, Xingyi or Bagua would have seemed to fit better but overall a good design. I honestly probably should've focused more on Judo for Baogang given his tactics. Would you be interested in matching them against each other, ala the classic Wudang/Shaolin rivalry?
This message was last edited by the player at 04:18, Wed 10 Oct 2018.

I don't know martial arts styles well. I had a list of things I wanted Pingbi to be able to do, and I went looking for a style that let him do that. At the top of the list was Kiai, but I believe mental strength was also on the list. Of the styles you list, only Xingyi has both of those, and reading the description, its not a particularly close fit, though it is much more point efficient than what I've done.

The point of Pingbi was to win with chi rather than with fists.

I was thinking I might have to make a few changes to Pingbi, but in some ways, his dismal karate skill makes him interesting.

Sure, we can run a Wudang vs Shaolin fight. Could you stick Baogang in the final character thread?

Muay Thai template

Skills: Games (Muay Thai); Karate.

Techniques: Counterattack (Karate); Elbow Strike; Jam;
Kicking; Knee Strike; Leg Grapple (DX); Push Kick;
Spinning Kick; Spinning Punch; Sweep (Karate); Targeted
Attack (Karate Kick/Leg); Uppercut.

Cinematic Skills: Power Blow.

Cinematic Techniques: Roll with Blow.

Perks: Clinch (Karate); Iron Legs; Neck Control (Karate);
Special Exercises (Striker, Crushing with Limb, Shin);

Technique Mastery (Knee Strike).

Optional Traits

Advantages: Fit or Very Fit; Hard to Subdue; High Pain
Threshold.

Disadvantages: Social Stigma (Minor); low Wealth; crippling
injuries galore.

Skills: Boxing; Boxing Sport; Dancing (Ram Muay);
Savoir-Faire (Gym); Wrestling.

=====

Contender Template

Attributes: ST 12 [20]; DX 12 [40]; IQ 10 [0]; HT 12 [20].

Secondary Characteristics: Damage 1d-1/1d+2; BL 29 lbs.;
HP 12 [0]; Will 10 [0]; Per 10 [0]; FP 12 [0]; Basic Speed
6.00 [0]; Basic Move 6 [0].
-----> Removed the extra fatigue

Advantages: 20 points chosen from among ST +1 or +2 [10
or 20], DX +1 [20], HT +1 or +2 [10 or 20], HP +1 to +3
[2/HP], Will +1 to +4 [5/level], FP +1 to +3 [3/FP],
Ambidexterity [5], Enhanced Dodge 1 [15], Enhanced
Parry 1 [5 or 10], Fearlessness 1-5 [2/level] or Unfazeable
[15], Fit [5] or Very Fit [15], Hard to Subdue 1-5 [2/level],
High Pain Threshold [10], Reputation (Titlist) [Varies],
Striker (Crushing; Limb, Shin, -20%) [4], Style
Familiarity (any) [1/style], Style Perks [1/perk], or Wealth
(Comfortable) [10] or (Wealthy) [20].
-----> Swapped very fit for fit

Perks: Style Familiarity (own style) [1].

Disadvantages: -20 points chosen from among Code of
Honor (“Fight fair”) [-5] or Secret (Cheater, fall-taker,
steroid-user, etc.) [-5], Greed [-15*], Obsession (Win a
title) [-5*] or (Become the best in the world) [-10*],
Overconfidence [-5*], or Workaholic [-5].

• An additional -20 points chosen from among any of the above or
Appearance (Unattractive) [-4] or (Ugly) [-8], Bad
Temper [-10*], Enemy (Contender of equal skill; Rival; 6
or less) [-2] or (9 or less) [-5], Jealousy [-10], Pacifism
(Reluctant Killer) [-5] or (Cannot Kill) [-15], Reputation
(see p. 54) [Varies], or Stubbornness [-5].
-----> Went with cannot kill here, removed bad temper

Primary Skills: 30 points in the skills and techniques of a
sport or combat style (see Chapter 5).

Secondary Skills: Pick two of Bicycling (E) DX+1 [2]-13,
Breath Control (H) HT-1 [2]-11, Lifting (A) HT [2]-12,
Running (A) HT [2]-12, Sports (any) (A) DX [2]-12, or
Swimming (E) HT+1 [2]-13.
-----> Forgot that both of these get 2 points, and swapped to Sports since it is part of the template

Background Skills: Savoir-Faire (Dojo) (E) IQ [1]-10.

• Also spend 4 points on Current Affairs (Sports), First Aid, or
Games (any), all IQ/E; Acting, Gambling, or Streetwise,
all IQ/A; Intimidation, Will/A; or Autohypnosis, Will/H.
* Multiplied for self-control number; see p. B120.

Lenses Cinematic (+100 points): Add 80 points chosen from among
Arm ST +1 or +2 [5 or 10], Damage Resistance 1-2
(Partial, Hands, -40%; Tough Skin, -40%) [1-2],
Enhanced Dodge 1-3 [15/level], Enhanced Parry 1-3 [5 or
10/level], Enhanced Time Sense [45], Extra Attack 1 or 2
(Multi-Strike, +20%) [30 or 60], Forceful Chi 1-4
[15/level], Innate Attack [Varies], Resistant to Chi
Abilities (+3) [10], Recovery [10], Striking ST +1 or +2 [5
or 10], Trained by a Master [30], or Weapon Master [20-
45]. You must take either Trained by a Master or Weapon
Master!

• Add 20 points in your style’s cinematic skills
(and prerequisites); Power Blow is excellent for “finishing
moves.”  -----> I put all these into Power Blow and 4 Perks
This message was last edited by the player at 22:02, Thu 11 Oct 2018.

I found one error in the disadvantages for Whisper, which I fixed.  Otherwise,  followed the template exactly.

When it got to the cinematic skills, I judged that the character wouldn't use them.  Instead, I took extra fatigue, skill points, and a couple perks that GCA sais was part of the template.  If cinematic skills are a requirement, then I will go back and do the minor re-work on the character.

Ok, the secondary skills now have 2 points each, like they are supposed to.

cinematic skills and techniques I'd have said have to be the categories given. However, Muay Thai has an exceptionally short list of cinematic skills and abilities.

There is a case to be made for spending those cinematic style points on primary skills and techniques, and also for spending them on the Optional Traits listed below. Spending it on FP is very unusual and unexplained. I also don't see very fit bolded, so I assume some of the cinematic points went there as well (those are still advantages rather than skills and techniques)

If we're going to all points to be spent slightly off-topic of a template, your opponents should agree to it, and you should ask before you take the option.

I'm being a stickler on this, because lots of folks have already built and are playing with characters, and without those restrictions some of the characters could have some tweaks that make significantly better (pingyi with extra attack comes to mind, and you do not want him using Kiai in the same round he can attack. I was just short on points)

What options do people want to offer here? expanded cinematic abilities? moving points between "buckets" at a 2 for 1 ratio? allowing points to be spent on main skill and technique?

I don' remember where I took the points for very fit from.  It was in the Muay Thai template so I thought it would be appropriate to take.

Your points are all valid.  If everyone else went exactly off the template then I can do the same with Whisper.  My intention was to make the best and most effective character that I could.  As built I think Whisper has a decent shot at winning most if not all of his matches, barring the occasional critical fail or whatever.  However, if he has an unfair advantage because I varied from the template, I am more than happy to fix that.  I'm not looking to win at all costs, but I do care about my characters being effective.

The extra fatigue was on the list of items for the Contender template.  I like to have a decent fatigue pool for more combat oriented games, because you never know when you might need to add feverish to a dodge or parry.

And as long as you take those points from pool of 20 for the base template, its a great pick. Monk doesn't have it, which is very annoying.

I have re-edited Whisper to do a "letter of the law" build.  The only exception I made was to take 4 perks from the Muay Thai style template in the 20 points intended for Cinematic Skills.  The Muay Thai template is heavy on perks, and has only 1 cinematic skill.  Please let me know if that is acceptable to you.  Otherwise, I'll stick all 5 into Power Blow.

It looks very clean, except for the perks, and you mentioned those. I'm fine with that, but I'd like the other contestants to verify that as well.

The template doesn't mention anything about Perks, but they seem like a pretty important of this particular martial arts style.  Since everyone else went letter of the law I tried to make it reasonable.  As soon as Whisper gets the green light, I'm ready to go on a fight.

I'm fine with him, but I'd like at least one other contestant to approve of using skill points for perks.

I'm good with it. Any ruling on the portion for martial arts that says we're supposed to be getting non-style perks for every so many points we put into our style?

I'm reading the statement as restrictive rather than permissive. Its a cap on how many perks you can have of a certain type, total. I would say that non-style perks don't appear in the template, which is yet more restrictive, and are explicitly not part of the style, so I'm going to rule against them.

Meet master Mu Kao...

ATT:	170	ADV:	31	D/Q:	-40	SKILLS:	39	TOTAL:	200
Name	Master Mu Kao
  [70] ST	17	Encumbrance	WT	BM	Dodge	Basic Lift	57
   [6] HP	20	None (0)	57	6	9	One-Handed Lift	114
  [40] DX	12	Light (1)	114	4.8	8	Two-Handed Lift	456
   [0] IQ	10	Medium (2)	171	3.6	7	Knock Over	684
  [25] Will	15	Heavy (3)	342	2.4	6	Carry on Back	855
   [0] Per	10	Extra-Hvy (4)	570	1.2	5	Shift		2850
  [20] HT	12
   [9] FP	15
   [0] BS	6	Dodge	9
   [0] BM	6	Parry	13
       DR	2/3 (Tough Skin)
       Base Dam		2d-1/3d+1
       Punch (18):	2d+2
       Kick (16):	2d+2
       EHS (18):	2d+3
       Shin Kick (16):	2d+3


Advantages [31]
   [3] Blunt Claws
   [6] DR 2 (Tough Skin, -40%)
   [5] Enhanced Parry +1
   [4] Striker (Crushing; Limb, Shin, -20%)
  [10] Striking ST +2

   [1] Style Familiarity (Hung Gar Kung Fu)
   [1] Iron Hands:  DR 1 (Partial, Hands, -40%; Tough Skin, -40%))
   [1] Iron Legs:  +3 to Injury resistance

Disadvantages [-40]
 [-10] Obsession (Be the best in the world)
  [-5] Overconfidence
  [-5] Workaholic
 [-10] Bad Temper
  [-5] Stubborn
  [-5] Bad Grip

Skills [39]		Skill Level	ATT	Difficulty
   [2] Lifting			12	HT	A
   [1] Savoir-Faire (Dojo)	10	IQ	E
   [2] Intimidation		10	IQ	A
   [2] Gambling			10	IQ	A

  [28] Karate			18	DX	H
   [1] Exotic Hand Strike	18	Tech	A
   [0] Aggressive Parry		12	Tech	H
   [0] Jam			12	Tech	H
   [2] Breath Control		11	HT	H
   [1] Philosophy (Buddhism)	8	IQ	H

Ohhhh, that tiny skill list.  I feel so dirty right now...
This message was last edited by the GM at 19:34, Sat 24 Nov 2018.

oooh now that is scary. Like, one hit and you're down scary.

https://drive.google.com/file/...F3ayn7xYsP36Jx0/view

my new build for Baogang, for any who missed it. I'm not confident in it, but it seems to address some of the issues I was having before.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:10, Sat 24 Nov 2018.

He'd got his weaknesses... the glaring one is he isn't a mixed martial artist.  No Grappling.

Also, no Chi.  He's built with Contender and Tough Guy.  So Rapid Strikes are the full -6.

Could be fun.

Would you want to help me test out Baogang's new build?

Sure!

Cool, will prolly get pounded into paste but good to try it out. Gotta ask Derrick to set it up right?

Mu Kao, who I will hereafter refer to as "graceful mountain", looks mostly good.

Blunt claws are not a valid advantage for him to buy, as its not on the template. Same for bad grip. I'm aware of Martial arts page 42, but the option is not on the template.

Everything else looks legal.
This message was last edited by the GM at 16:57, Tue 27 Nov 2018.

Is the honorable name of his family not good enough for you?  /mock outrage!

;)



It's derived from Iron Hands, which comes from the Style.

Yes, but its not on the template, and we're being a stickler for the template.

I mean, yeah, but you kinda seem to get blunt claws via spending more perk points on Iron Hands depending on how you interpret the writing, which he does have? I dunno I can see how it was confusing either way.

Copy that.




If I'm interpreting what Derrick means, it's a 'degrees of separation' thing.  The Style is on the Template, The Perk is on the Style (and the Template calls out buying Style Perks), buuuut the Blunt Claws aren't on Style or Template.

It just means Master Mu is gonna get better at kicking and do slightly less damage with his hands.  The Blunt Claws really aren't the focus of the build, they were just some icing on the Aggressive Parry...

So do I have to get rid of Mental Strength on Baogang because it's in his Optionals?

No, that's in his cinematic skills, not his optional skills. The optional skills are in black text, while the required and cinematic skills are in teal.

Ah you're totally right, I'd just misread the template entry is all, my bad.

The changes to Master Mu Kao:

Dropping Blunt Claws [3] and Bad Grip [-5], gaining Kicking [3] and Reputation ("Miracle Cure All" shill) [-5].

In reply to evileeyore (msg # 97):

Then the character is approved and good to go!

In reply to Derrick (msg # 98):

Actual, eeyore, could you post those changes to the character? I'm not finding the updated version, just the original.

Actually, dagnabit...   Kicking isn't part Hung Gar Kung Fu.  I remembered while at work today.  Like out of the blue in the midst of preparing a dish, "Oh hey, Kicking isn't part of Hung Gar."

Sigh.

Instead, it's Aggressive Parry [2] and Iron Arms [1].


Roger wilco.  (I was wating to make sure it was kosher before updating it over to the Final Character thread)

Darn, Iron Arms is actually going to be more trouble for me. Does it apply to Pressure Points as well?
This message was last edited by the player at 23:53, Thu 29 Nov 2018.

It depends on whether Derrick defines "Crippling" as "Injury" or not; or whether he looks at the Perk as applying versus Arm Lock (which it does) and whether it then applies to anything that 'modifies' Arm Lock (which Pressure Points does).


In a Bao versus Kao, you'd be at 16 for Arm Lock against a possible 15 resistance (if Derrick considers Pressure Points to be resistible with Iron Body Parts).

Also, remember that with Arm Lock you don't need to keep "one hand free" to Parry.  You can consider maneuvering the arm you've locked as a grappling Parry, but doing so requires you release your victim (MA pg 119). (this is something I reran across the day before and remembered the trouble you had needing to keep one hand free to Parry with)

I don't know if it's relevant, but the general text for Iron Body Part only lists resisting Wrenching and Lock damage as effects. Also pretty sure you misread on my arm lock roll, I'd be rolling a 12 IIRC because that's Baogang's Pressure Points skill.

"... from Arm Lock, Wrench Arm, and the like."

The 'and the like' is also pretty important.  ;)


Oooow.  Yeah, that's a lot worse than I thought.

To be honest, I'm starting to think I should just kind of drop the idea of a match and possibly the character. Not too much of a point when half of the build is kind of just nullified outright XD
This message was last edited by the player at 03:24, Fri 30 Nov 2018.

Ok, this version Baogang needs some fixes:
https://drive.google.com/file/...F3ayn7xYsP36Jx0/view

He's spent 24 points on cinematics, and taken those extra 4 points from his style list. He is also missing Judo Art and Sumo wrestling from his required style skills

combat reflexes is not on the contender template, so that advantage is not kosher.

I really wish you'd gotten to this any of the three times I'd posted that sheet before...

Now I have to drop from the match with Lane and revise the character AGAIN and figure out entirely new build strategies for him.
This message was last edited by the player at 22:26, Wed 05 Dec 2018.

sorry for not catching things. I will admit life has been hectic recently.

When tweaking characters, I suggest people look over the template a second time, because there seems to be a strong tendency to miss template requirements when revising an existing sheet.

made the update to Ben Olson for Cowboys and Indians.

Does the Resistance to Chi abilities on the Contender Template cover Kiai? Also, it's different from the single ability-covering Chi Resistance perk correct? It costs 10 points and seems like it confers a blanket +3 Resistance to all chi attacks, which would include pressure points and kiai.

That said I'm not sure. It seems like my best bet for making Baogang viable if so.

I saw the perk, but it wasn't on my template so I didn't take it.  If things are a little broader, I have a quirk I wanted to add to Whisper.

It's not a perk, it's under the Contender template for advantages.

Yes. Kiai is very much a chi ability, and resistance to Chi grants its bonus. It also counters pressure points, and possibly other attacks.

The perk would give +3 to kiai, not chi. Styles that allow it list it perks as Chi Resistance (Kiai). They are:

• La Verdadera Destreza (wait what? Spanish swordsmanship? they don't even have Kiai themselves!)
• Hwa Rang Do (good cinematic list, but lack Kiai themselves)
• Shaolin Kung Fu (if you want the full cinematic list, go Shaolin)
• Dragon Man Kung Fu (another strong option for cinematics)
• Force swordsmanship

I have to confess, that list feels very random to me. I'd have expected half the templates with kiai to have the perk as an option.

I'm going to guess they had many people doing the templates.  Some put in the perk, some didn't.  You're right, a lot of the items seem very random.  How is it that every template doesn't have combat reflexes as an option?  You'd think that would be automatic for a hand-to-hand fighter.  We could probably spend a lot of time debating what should and shouldn't be in the various templates.

Destreza has it because keeping a clear head, intellect and being unshakable are hallmarks of the style, though at that point you really should just be focusing on mental strength.

So the flat +3 resistance to all chi abilities for 10 points is available to all contenders correct?

Also, can anyone give me a cost-benefit for choosing Push over Sumo Wrestling? I can level Sumo up as high or higher with fewer points I think, but they cover such similar things...

I may ditch the pressure point strategy as it costs too many points but not sure...

Combat Reflexes tend to show up on Templates that have seen combat.  One on one bouts aren't 'combat'.  What GURPS authors tend to call combat are 'life and death fights facing multiple combatants'.  Survive (or train to specifically survive) a few of those and they figure you should have Combat Reflexes.

So Combat Reflexes shows up on the Assassin, Instructor, Crimefighter, and Warrior* and Templates, because those are martial artists that should have seen 'combat'.  You'll also see it on certian Style's Optional Advantages list, because those are 'no holds bared' styles where students are trained in the meat grinder.  For example Aikijutsu, Aramatura, Kachin Bando just to name the first three I came across.  Where as Styles that train with one on one bouts or only in 'the safety of the dojo', like Boxing, Capoeira, and Chin Na do not offer Combat Reflexes as an Optional trait.




* I contemplated taking Warrior just for Combat Reflexes.  But the Stat line of Contender was better and this being one on one bouts meant Combat Reflexes really wasn't as valuable.

https://drive.google.com/file/...jiY/view?usp=sharing I have a couple different versions of Baogang worked out depending on what's permissible. This version:

Dropped Pressure Points, Pressure Point Strike and Roll with Blow,

Swapped Fit and Ambi for Resistance to Chi (+3)

lowered Breath Control by 3 points

using the points leftover from ditching my more gimmick-y pressure point strategy

Raised Mental Strength to SL 12

Raised Judo to 17 and Karate to 15.

The advantages look good.

The skills and techniques are still off-balanced. You need exactly 30 in your non-cinematics and 20 in your cinematics.  You have 12 in the cinematics right now. I'll point out that roll with blow is on your cinematic list, and we've just seen it used to great effect. You asked about Sumo vs. Push, and I was busy then, but I'd recommend choosing the skill in the short category rather than the long category. You do need at least one point in sumo though.

I don’t though the write up for taijiquan specifically says Sumo can be replaced with Push in the skills list of a cinematic game also what do you mean by short and long category?

You are correct! no need for sumo if you have push

When I say long and short categories I mean that right now you have 12 points in cinematic skills and 38 points in non-cinematic skills, so he's long in non-cinematic skills, and short in cinematic skills. If he had 24 points in each, he'd be long in cinematic skills, and short in non-cinematic skills. You should pick which ever of sumo or push help you get 30 in non-cinematics and 20 in cinematics.

Does the strength bonus from Sumo stack with using Push as my strength score?

Looking at it, maybe? Sumo does not specify what skill should be used for the bonus to apply, while the other skills with a bonus all seem to.

you can probably get just a big a bonus from raising push, as you can substitute your push skill for strength. So 4 points in Sumo gives as much a bonus as 4 points in push, as long as your push skill is higher than your ST. But they do stack, so there may be an edge case where its useful.

Whisper has been rewritten per the letter of the Contender template.  Muay Thai doesn't fit very well in a couple places so I made 2 minor variations.  Both seemed to fit in the template of the style.  I edited the character in place so as not to clutter up the finished character thread.

* I used 5 of the 80 "Cinematic" points on perks
* I used 10 of the "Cinematic skills and prerequisites" on Will (only has Power Blow to choose from)

20 advantage points
Enhanced Dodge
Will 1

80 Cinematic points
Enhanced Dodge 2
Resistant to Chi
Striking ST
5 Perks
Trained by a Master

20 Cinematic Skills and Prerequisites
Will 2
10 skill points (Power Blow and Roll with Blow)

Let me know if he checks out.  The biggest change was basically an Enhanced Dodge for Will, and then he actually uses his cinematic skills.  This build is far closer to the template as written, to be honest.
This message was last edited by the player at 05:21, Tue 11 Dec 2018.

https://drive.google.com/file/...-rV/view?usp=sharing

and here, I have a much more closely formatted-to-the-template Baogang. He should be entirely legal now. He's focused on being difficult to permanently damage or knockdown/back between Immovable Stance, Roll with Blow and a high Judo Score and Improved Parry. Mental Strength and a +3 resistance to chi means he should have a better shot of dealing with Kiai as well.

He still has a Karate SL of 14 and two attacks per round, so he should avoid some of the pitfalls we learned about with Pingbi. his Arm Lock score is also really high, as AFAIK Arm Lock isn't affected by the Rule of 16.

I was briefly considering dropping Karate in favor of Sumo Wrestling and lowering one of his defenses so I could combo it with Push, as with 2d6+2 x2 as his effective Push rating seemed pretty good for ringouts, but having some striking ability seemed like the better idea.

In reply to Dblade (msg # 124):

Baogang is valid. He has a point that's technically unspent but flagged for a specific skill (breath control, I think). I look forward to seeing him in action.

In reply to Whisper (msg # 123):

You spent 4 points on perks, not 5, because style familiarity is part of the contender template.

Targeted attack (leg) only costs 2 to raise that high, and can't have 3 points spent on it.

Running and Breath Control should have [2] points each, not [1], and you need one more background skill.

You have 30 points to spend on non-cinematic style skills and techniques. I count 24 from power blow, and 10 from techniques (9 if you lower targeted attack as discussed). that's over 30, either way.

I'd like approval on the raised will from cinematics from someone whose character has a will-resisted attack.

From a different thread:

Whisper was built on Cinematic.

My bad there sorry.

Just putting this here while I work on it

John Valentine-Cowboy

ST : 10
DX : 12
IQ : 11
HT : 12
WILL : 11
PER : 12
SPEED : 6
MOVE : 6

Advantages
Off-Hand Weapon Training (Pistol) [1]
Weapon Bond (Pistol) [1]
Combat Reflexes

Skills
Armoury (Small Arms) -11 (IQ/ A) at [2] (2)
Brawling -13 at [2] (2)
Fast Draw (Ammo) -13 (DX/ E) at [2] (2)
Fast Draw (Pistol) -13 (DX/ E) at [2] (2)
First Aid -11
Guns (Pistol) -15 (DX/ E) at [8] (10)
Holdout -12 (IQ/ A) at [4] (4)
Judo -11(DX/H) At [2] (2)
Riding (Horse) -13 (DX/ A) at [4] (4)
Stealth -12 at [2]
Survival (Plains) -12 (PER/ A) at [2] (2)
Tracking -12 (PER/ A) at [2] (2)
This message was last edited by the player at 21:42, Wed 19 Dec 2018.

Can someone help me figure out what I'm missing on this? I'm sure it's extensive.

Yeah... mostly you've got more points to spend.  Give me a few minutes (like an hour or two actually for dinner, etc) and I'll have all your bugs pinned...

'preciate it. I know I'm missing a lot of skill points but I couldn't pin down what else wasn't there.

Specifically this:

SPEED: 6.25
+5 points to buy Advantages
+2 points in combat Skills
+2 points in combat Skills or combat Techniques
+1 point in transportation Skills and Techniques
+10 points in skills
+5 points in Techniques


This is all straight from Derricks PMs.
This message was last edited by the GM at 03:10, Thu 20 Dec 2018.

What list am I allowed advantages off of?

That's a very good question that only Derrick can really answer... but...

I know all the non-Cinematic Perks in Gun-Fu were on the table, that's where I did all my buying from.  I suspect all non-Cinematic, non-Supernatural Ads and Perks from Basic are also in.  There are no new Advantages in Gun-Fu.

Thanks

Anything in action, I'd say, plus the non-cinematic stuff in gun-fu. Ask me if you want something not on that list, and I might say yes.

I'm posting what I have of the invisible gorrilla wizard so far:

ST 10 [0]
DX 10 [0]
IQ 14 [80]
HT 11 [10]

HP 10 [0]
Will 14 [0]
Per 14 [0]
FP 11 [0]

Speed 5.25 [0]
Move 5 [0]

Magery 3 [35]
Status 1 [0]
(15 points in wealth and/or signature gear)

Duty (military, 12 or less) [-10]
Code of Honor (Soldiers) [-10]
Bad Temper CR 12[-10]
Callous [-5]
Curious [-5]*
Secret (Unsolved Murders) [-10]*

Thaumatology VH IQ -14 [1]
Navigation A IQ-1 -13 [1]
Hiking A HT+1 -12 [2]
Staff DX+1 - 11 [4]

Games (Magical Challenges) E IQ -14 [1]
Savoir-Faire (Military) E IQ -14 [1]
Tactics H IQ-2 -12 [1]
Research A IQ-1 -14 [2]

16/22 spells:
Light
Continual Light
Darkness
Blur
Flash -- 2 sec, bleh
Invisibility
See invisible

Sense foes
Sense emotion
Persuation
Beast Soother
Mammal Control
Shapeshift (gorrilla)
Shapeshift (bat)

ignite fire
create fire

--------------------------------------------------------
15 points of signature gear: power stone rings!
1 10-point powerstone ($1900)
2 7-point powerstones ($2000)
2 4-point powerstones ($850)
4 5 point powerstones ($2380)

$7130 -- 15 point signature gear.

The five point power stones are worn on the right hand. The others are worn on the left, with the 10 point stone on the tall finger and two 4 point stones on the ring finger. The gems are a matching set of carved turquoise animals, including a gorilla and a bat. They are family heirlooms.

He'll also be bringing a staff, for $10, which isn't special at all.

--------------------------------------------------------

I've still got 6 spell slots, and I really need to figure out the best configuration for the power stones, figure out how nice a staff he wants, and look into some light armor.
This message was last edited by the GM at 17:16, Thu 18 July 2019.

He looks good... except don't forget the Military rank is gone and Research is 2 pointer (not a big deal) and the spell packs are 12 points in spells*, so you should have 22 points in spells (after trading in Military rank).


And yeah, I always recommend See Invisible.  If your foe winks out, you're as good as beat already.


* Lend Energy and Recover Energy and then a 10 point spell pack.  But since we're breaking out of the template for spell choices, have at whatever you want to buy within 22 points.

research and rank are fixed.


I think it depends on the meta-game you're in. I eventually threw this guy out here not because I think this is the best build for a wizard duel, but because the meta-game has to start somewhere.

The character as built actually has two existing plans for an invisible foe. The first is to turn into a bat and play keep-away until the maintenance cost on invisibility exhausts my foe. shapechange has a long duration, and the bat can see invisible, and in the dark via echolocation. It can also fly for maximum evasion. The other plan is create fire: I know where they were, I can cover a big area, and I can cast it quickly.

Solid plans.

I made a battle wizzard:

Vincent
=== Attributes [90] ===
ST 10 [0]  HP 10/10 [0]
DX 10 [0]  Will  14 [0]
IQ 14 [80] Per   10 [0]
HT 11 [10] FP 10/10 [0]
Mvmt 5.25 [0] / 5 [0]
Lift 20 lbs. [0]

Dodge 9 [0]
    (+1 from Combat Reflexes)

=== Advantages [51] ===
* Magery 3        [35]
* Combat Reflexes [15]
* Points for Cash [1] ($500)

=== Disadvantages [-50] ===
* Duty (12)                 [-10]
* Bad Temper (12)           [-10]
* Greed (12)                [-15]
* Selfish (12)              [-5]
* Post-Combat Shakes (12)   [-10]

=== Skills [12] ===
* Thaumatology IQ [1]-14
* Navigation (Land) IQ-1 [1]-13
* Hiking HT+1 [2]-12
* Innate Attack (Missile) DX+2 [4]-12
* Games (Magical Challenges) IQ [1]-14
* Savoir-Faire (Military) IQ [1]-14
* Tactics IQ-1 [2]-13
* Research IQ-1 [1]-13

=== Spells [21] ===
Ignite Fire [1]-15
Shape Fire [1]-15
Fireball [1]-15
Explosive Fireball [1]-15
Extinguish Fire [1]-15
Fireproof [1]-15
Resist Fire [1]-15
Haste [1]-15
Great Haste (VH) [2]-15
Apportation [1]-15
Levitation [1]-15
Flight (VH) [1]-14
Hawk Flight (VH) [1]-14
Counterspell [1]-15
Missile Shield [1]-15
Reverse Missiles [1]-15
Itch [1]-15
Spasm [1]-15
Pain [1]-15
Stun [1]-15

Equipment:
6-point powerstone on pectoral pendant
Leather Armor (DR 2, torso, groin)
Cloth Sleeves (DR 1*, arms)
Heavy Leather Leggings (DR 2, legs)
Leather Helm (DR 2, skull, face)

This message was last edited by the player at 02:33, Thu 18 July 2019.

In reply to VIVIT (msg # 143):

Hiking is 2 points, not 1.

We have 22 points in spells, not 20 (recover energy is a spell on the original template)

He still has military duty (not that its likely to matter)

I still need to buy my power stones and staff, don't I? I wrote it down somewhere, but not on this thread...

In reply to Derrick (msg # 144):

Edited (and expanded).

For the record, I imagined that removing Military Rank would also remove his military associations in general, making him into something more akin to a mercenary (hence the Greed disad) rather than a registered serviceman.

For a while I was trying to build according to a heavily modified version of the template to make a Duelist Wizard, which included things like Social Stigma (Expelled), but it was too much of a hassle, so I mostly just went with the template as written.

OK.

I just added gear to my guy. Lots and lots of powerstones, plus a big stick.

He still has 6 spell slots open, but if its ok I'd like to leave those as unspent points. He won't get to spend them during duels of course, I'm just mostly happy with what I've got an unsure what else he needs.

eeyore, do you want to start up a fight?

Sure.  For the first round of fights (one set each, Derrick vs VIVIT, VIVIT vs DBlade, DBlade vs Derrick) the arena will not be reactive, that is, it is just the two mages and they have as much time to beat each other into unconsciousness or surrender as they need.

If this becomes too boring (duellists waiting out long spell durations), the assembled judges may institute time limited reactive measures for future battles (such as a slowly rising water level, slowly created choking gas, roving 3 hex wide storms, packs of wild ROUSes, etc) just to impose a bit of haste on the duellists...


Let's get the Wizard duellists into the Final Characters thread and I'll prepare the arena levels...