In reply to Derrick (msg # 98):

Actual, eeyore, could you post those changes to the character? I'm not finding the updated version, just the original.

Actually, dagnabit...   Kicking isn't part Hung Gar Kung Fu.  I remembered while at work today.  Like out of the blue in the midst of preparing a dish, "Oh hey, Kicking isn't part of Hung Gar."

Sigh.

Instead, it's Aggressive Parry [2] and Iron Arms [1].


Roger wilco.  (I was wating to make sure it was kosher before updating it over to the Final Character thread)

Darn, Iron Arms is actually going to be more trouble for me. Does it apply to Pressure Points as well?
This message was last edited by the player at 23:53, Thu 29 Nov 2018.

It depends on whether Derrick defines "Crippling" as "Injury" or not; or whether he looks at the Perk as applying versus Arm Lock (which it does) and whether it then applies to anything that 'modifies' Arm Lock (which Pressure Points does).


In a Bao versus Kao, you'd be at 16 for Arm Lock against a possible 15 resistance (if Derrick considers Pressure Points to be resistible with Iron Body Parts).

Also, remember that with Arm Lock you don't need to keep "one hand free" to Parry.  You can consider maneuvering the arm you've locked as a grappling Parry, but doing so requires you release your victim (MA pg 119). (this is something I reran across the day before and remembered the trouble you had needing to keep one hand free to Parry with)

I don't know if it's relevant, but the general text for Iron Body Part only lists resisting Wrenching and Lock damage as effects. Also pretty sure you misread on my arm lock roll, I'd be rolling a 12 IIRC because that's Baogang's Pressure Points skill.

"... from Arm Lock, Wrench Arm, and the like."

The 'and the like' is also pretty important.  ;)


Oooow.  Yeah, that's a lot worse than I thought.

To be honest, I'm starting to think I should just kind of drop the idea of a match and possibly the character. Not too much of a point when half of the build is kind of just nullified outright XD
This message was last edited by the player at 03:24, Fri 30 Nov 2018.

Ok, this version Baogang needs some fixes:
https://drive.google.com/file/...F3ayn7xYsP36Jx0/view

He's spent 24 points on cinematics, and taken those extra 4 points from his style list. He is also missing Judo Art and Sumo wrestling from his required style skills

combat reflexes is not on the contender template, so that advantage is not kosher.

I really wish you'd gotten to this any of the three times I'd posted that sheet before...

Now I have to drop from the match with Lane and revise the character AGAIN and figure out entirely new build strategies for him.
This message was last edited by the player at 22:26, Wed 05 Dec 2018.

sorry for not catching things. I will admit life has been hectic recently.

When tweaking characters, I suggest people look over the template a second time, because there seems to be a strong tendency to miss template requirements when revising an existing sheet.

made the update to Ben Olson for Cowboys and Indians.

Does the Resistance to Chi abilities on the Contender Template cover Kiai? Also, it's different from the single ability-covering Chi Resistance perk correct? It costs 10 points and seems like it confers a blanket +3 Resistance to all chi attacks, which would include pressure points and kiai.

That said I'm not sure. It seems like my best bet for making Baogang viable if so.

I saw the perk, but it wasn't on my template so I didn't take it.  If things are a little broader, I have a quirk I wanted to add to Whisper.

It's not a perk, it's under the Contender template for advantages.

Yes. Kiai is very much a chi ability, and resistance to Chi grants its bonus. It also counters pressure points, and possibly other attacks.

The perk would give +3 to kiai, not chi. Styles that allow it list it perks as Chi Resistance (Kiai). They are:

• La Verdadera Destreza (wait what? Spanish swordsmanship? they don't even have Kiai themselves!)
• Hwa Rang Do (good cinematic list, but lack Kiai themselves)
• Shaolin Kung Fu (if you want the full cinematic list, go Shaolin)
• Dragon Man Kung Fu (another strong option for cinematics)
• Force swordsmanship

I have to confess, that list feels very random to me. I'd have expected half the templates with kiai to have the perk as an option.

I'm going to guess they had many people doing the templates.  Some put in the perk, some didn't.  You're right, a lot of the items seem very random.  How is it that every template doesn't have combat reflexes as an option?  You'd think that would be automatic for a hand-to-hand fighter.  We could probably spend a lot of time debating what should and shouldn't be in the various templates.

Destreza has it because keeping a clear head, intellect and being unshakable are hallmarks of the style, though at that point you really should just be focusing on mental strength.

So the flat +3 resistance to all chi abilities for 10 points is available to all contenders correct?

Also, can anyone give me a cost-benefit for choosing Push over Sumo Wrestling? I can level Sumo up as high or higher with fewer points I think, but they cover such similar things...

I may ditch the pressure point strategy as it costs too many points but not sure...

Combat Reflexes tend to show up on Templates that have seen combat.  One on one bouts aren't 'combat'.  What GURPS authors tend to call combat are 'life and death fights facing multiple combatants'.  Survive (or train to specifically survive) a few of those and they figure you should have Combat Reflexes.

So Combat Reflexes shows up on the Assassin, Instructor, Crimefighter, and Warrior* and Templates, because those are martial artists that should have seen 'combat'.  You'll also see it on certian Style's Optional Advantages list, because those are 'no holds bared' styles where students are trained in the meat grinder.  For example Aikijutsu, Aramatura, Kachin Bando just to name the first three I came across.  Where as Styles that train with one on one bouts or only in 'the safety of the dojo', like Boxing, Capoeira, and Chin Na do not offer Combat Reflexes as an Optional trait.




* I contemplated taking Warrior just for Combat Reflexes.  But the Stat line of Contender was better and this being one on one bouts meant Combat Reflexes really wasn't as valuable.

https://drive.google.com/file/...jiY/view?usp=sharing I have a couple different versions of Baogang worked out depending on what's permissible. This version:

Dropped Pressure Points, Pressure Point Strike and Roll with Blow,

Swapped Fit and Ambi for Resistance to Chi (+3)

lowered Breath Control by 3 points

using the points leftover from ditching my more gimmick-y pressure point strategy

Raised Mental Strength to SL 12

Raised Judo to 17 and Karate to 15.

The advantages look good.

The skills and techniques are still off-balanced. You need exactly 30 in your non-cinematics and 20 in your cinematics.  You have 12 in the cinematics right now. I'll point out that roll with blow is on your cinematic list, and we've just seen it used to great effect. You asked about Sumo vs. Push, and I was busy then, but I'd recommend choosing the skill in the short category rather than the long category. You do need at least one point in sumo though.

I don’t though the write up for taijiquan specifically says Sumo can be replaced with Push in the skills list of a cinematic game also what do you mean by short and long category?

You are correct! no need for sumo if you have push

When I say long and short categories I mean that right now you have 12 points in cinematic skills and 38 points in non-cinematic skills, so he's long in non-cinematic skills, and short in cinematic skills. If he had 24 points in each, he'd be long in cinematic skills, and short in non-cinematic skills. You should pick which ever of sumo or push help you get 30 in non-cinematics and 20 in cinematics.

Does the strength bonus from Sumo stack with using Push as my strength score?

Looking at it, maybe? Sumo does not specify what skill should be used for the bonus to apply, while the other skills with a bonus all seem to.

you can probably get just a big a bonus from raising push, as you can substitute your push skill for strength. So 4 points in Sumo gives as much a bonus as 4 points in push, as long as your push skill is higher than your ST. But they do stack, so there may be an edge case where its useful.

Whisper has been rewritten per the letter of the Contender template.  Muay Thai doesn't fit very well in a couple places so I made 2 minor variations.  Both seemed to fit in the template of the style.  I edited the character in place so as not to clutter up the finished character thread.

* I used 5 of the 80 "Cinematic" points on perks
* I used 10 of the "Cinematic skills and prerequisites" on Will (only has Power Blow to choose from)

20 advantage points
Enhanced Dodge
Will 1

80 Cinematic points
Enhanced Dodge 2
Resistant to Chi
Striking ST
5 Perks
Trained by a Master

20 Cinematic Skills and Prerequisites
Will 2
10 skill points (Power Blow and Roll with Blow)

Let me know if he checks out.  The biggest change was basically an Enhanced Dodge for Will, and then he actually uses his cinematic skills.  This build is far closer to the template as written, to be honest.
This message was last edited by the player at 05:21, Tue 11 Dec 2018.