Hey, This thread is for conversations not related to any specific scenario or kind of scenario generation.

Here's a question up for discussion: How do you handle Dodge when it comes to dodging bullets? Is there a distance where you simply cannot see if someone is shooting at you? Is it possible to dodge when on horseback?

That's likely to end up being scenario specific.  GURPS Basic assumption is that you Dodge from where the gunmen is aiming, not the bullet itself exactly.

There are more realistic rules which prohibit Dodging bullets, but those are optional.


Yes.  That's not likely to come up in the Cowboys and Indians scenario though as it's far enough away that you cannot see the shooter.  Or, if the shooter is clearly behind you and started there, making it an Attack from the Back, thus denying defenses (but that happens in melee as well).


Yeeesss....   hmmm.  Let me double check.


Ah here's the relevant rule:

At what distance would you be able to see the shooter and therefore be able to dodge where he is aiming at?

It's pretty clear that something like Billy Dixon's lucky shot at the 2nd battle of Adobe Walls (he shot a Comanche over almost a mile of distance, look it up) would not warrant a Dodge. What distance would?

In reply to Mari (msg # 4):

Its all about awareness. The Comanche could have dodged, but didn't bother to. In this scenario, you get a dodge if you are aware of the shot. Hearing the shot won't count because of distance. You must be aware of the shooter's actions. And given that rule, I don't mind giving a dodge to anyone watching their enemy.

In reply to Derrick (msg # 5):

Alright, understood.

eeyore, are you waiting for something?

Yeah, for my brain to get in order.  It's been a long week without AC (it got fixed yesterday).  I'll try to attended to this game tonight.

Does anyone have a preference on the second scenario? This first one is taking a while to get off the ground. Either a new idea or one of the ones I've listed in brainstorming.

Can we get the dice roller switched to 3d6 by default?

done

The fight is over.  Pistolier drops and the Rifleman will flee.  We can play out the next handful of rounds, but the archers and musketeers are likely to miss (no Aiming) and Rifleman has no reason to hang around.

If this were a bigger scenario (IE the Rifleman has a serious stake in sticking around and was a 'real' Character), there might be some long range combat as Rifleman takes shots from cover and uses guerrilla tactics with the Comanches trying to drive them off...  but I don't see any reason.

a few more rounds to check out the escape would be ideal.

Any opinions on the next fight? I'm interested in Knight vs. Dragon, personally...

Yeah, Dragon versus George would be fun.

Ok. I'm just on vacation and unable to do much with the computer at the moment. Sorry for the delay.

No worries.

I have to say the Knight vs. Dragon scenario is not that interesting to me, since I am interested in seeing firearms in action. While a dragon has fire, it's not the same...

And since Evileeyore isn't really happy with how the Cowboys vs. Indians scenario went (I did not expect to hit with the musket either), I would propose a second Old West scenario. Maybe including a bit of roleplaying (but be careful with racial slurs in a non-adult game). I'd like to see good rifles and revolvers in effect, maybe with a simple open charge done by the Indians. It could even be against rifles and a Gatling Gun if you like.

Less 'unhappy', more 'ceases to be interesting' once a scenario becomes extremely lopsided.

Sometimes it's fun to play out the "hold the line until you die" situation, but that's not what we have here.


Honestly, I think the original scenario would have worked fine with 4 archers and multiple chargers.  It was that musket hit that turned tipped the scales immediately.

The battle was really decided by three rolls:

1) The successful stealth roll. This might have been weighted to the Comanche side.
2) The successful ranged hits. Not one, not two, but all three hit. And they could have easily all missed.
3) The failed HT rolls.

We may want to institute a rule where a very pivotal roll may be waived to go the other way if its success ends the scenario in a way we feel is unsatisfying. maybe call it a "fateful wound".

Of course, the take-aways here are:

1) numbers matter, even against technology
2) technology needs good conditions to operate
3) a party of two is very vulnerable to failure
4) tactics and skills other than weapon skills matter
5) the initiative in combat is really nice.
6) don't camp out with just you and a buddy in hostile country with 30 head of cattle.

We do not have to run only one combat at a time, and all players don't have to join all combats. If you want to see how a pure mounted charge goes against the two cowboys, we can run that as well. It should be pretty darn quick.

Both of you feel free to suggest scenarios, or bring up ones you'd like to see next.

I agree with the assessment. Those rolls went quite bad for the cowboys.

My suggestion would be to do something where they have more of an advantage. Daylight, open charge, maybe a few more cowboys, maybe a gatling gun, no firearms for the Indians. The challenge to evileeyore would be to determine how many archers and melee warriors he could hold off with his force, so that it would become a close call but still a victory. We would test that theory then.

Eh.  If all four ranged ambushers were archers, Pistol would probably still be up, even if they all hit (baring a multiple damage crit).


Nah.  Combat turns on the die roll.


I was hoping more people would get interested.  You should probably advertise this in the "Seeking Players" forum.

Does rpol have one? or are you talking about the sjgames forum?

link to another game

There's an index of 'non-game' forums somewhere...

This has most of the 'non-game' games:
/?sa=1&si=1&genre%5B%5D=1&search=search

I think the ones that are missing (like the GURPS Community and such) are missing because they are still considered 'games'.

Thankyou. Notices played on both rpol and sjgames

Just sticking it here for ease of finding it for 'bumping' once a week.

link to a message in another game


(I need to double check the forum rules and see if non-GM are allowed to bump those threads)

Hi! Am more or less a newb when it comes to GURPS, though I've always been interested in the system and watching people structure and play out combats seems fascinating to me!

Will try and come up with some interesting fight scenarios at least, while I try and learn GURPS properly.

The best way to learn is to jump in!  And with the speed of PbP you get plenty of time to absorb things as you go.

So I recently picked up 4th Ed Martial Arts, and I'm a practitioner of and huge fan of martial arts and martial arts media cheesy/cinematic or not.

I see we already have a sword duel, but could we get some kinda multiple martial arts tournament/melee going on? and if so, would people prefer cinematic or realistic? I'd love to get involved in an actual GURPS Martial Arts themed game at some point too but that's neither here nor there.

Pop that suggestion in the Scenario Brainstorming thread!
This message was last edited by the player at 07:15, Sun 23 Sept 2018.

Thanks, have done now!

Dblade, are you interested in the dragon fight?

I'm following along with it but not sure how to contribute.

Hey everyone.  I'm happy to be here and fight with you guys, lol. I've got some pretty good experience with the GURPs system and this seems like cool thread.

I'll just chime in and say I like Dblade's idea of some sort of martial arts tournament.
This message was last edited by the player at 14:58, Mon 24 Sept 2018.

If we've got two people wanting the martial arts tournament, we can certainly do it! I'd prefer to start out with just a single arena match. What sort of arena are you thinking of (stone platform, roped ring, ect), how is killing your foe looked upon, can you win by throwing them out of the ring, and how is grappling viewed?



Well, I'm hoping for either a second combatant or someone who can referee the fight. eeyore has offered to play either side of that fight, but favors the dragon. If playing an entire side feels overwhelming, playing just part of it is also cool.

------------------------------------

What are we waiting for with Cowboys and Indians? Mari's  dodge roll, perhaps?

I'll try playing the knight, though again I'm a total GURPS newbie.

For arena either raised circular platform made of wood and allowing for ringouts, or a roped off arena like a boxing match if no ring outs is preferred. Either way I say we allow for grappling, so as to not limit ourselves purely to striking stylists. I'm not sure how much ground game to allow for, though.

Edit: in terms of lethality I'd say we do this in a manner sort of inspired by old Wuxia stories/newer movies of the same nature. Killing your foe shouldn't be the main goal/we should be aiming for non-lethal defeat but if death happens it happens? Probably unarmed focused, doing armed arts feels like it'd add a whole 'nother dimension, though I'd be open to it if people would prefer.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:15, Mon 24 Sept 2018.

I think so, but this should be remedied now.

For the arena i’d say raised platform stone arena, so a ring out may not mean death but would be almost impossible to get back in. Ring out is a loss.  I think death would be discouraged, but understood if it’s accidental. Doesn’t need to be battles to the death

I've started the thread! I did in fact go with a raised stone arena. The version I had allowed you to rest if you're THROWN off, but if we want to play with knocking people off the platform as being legal, that's fine with me.

Looks good.  I've already started building my dude.

Still need to find my copy of Characters from Basic Set, then I'll be all set to go. Having some trouble sorting through stuff though. Hope I haven't lost the PDF in my last computer crash ^^;

So, since I'm debating making a Taijichuan guy for my Martial Arts character, I had a question. I've already tried sussing this out on my own and compared the rule in Martial Arts to the description for shoves in Basic, but what's the actual advantage of Push as a cinematic ability vs just doing the shove? Is it just replacing the roll against opponent's strength? Because it says it replaces ST not skill, but where else is an ST roll involved?

Hi!  I just joined and I'm still figuring stuff out.

I may join the Martial Arts tournament, too!

Awesome! What style are you interested in? So far we've got Karate and Tai Chi Chuan!

In reply to Dblade (msg # 44):

Well, since it's cinematic, I was thinking of going with either Smasha or Ultimate Style.  I've done realistic ones before, so I'm relishing the chance to step away into the fantastical.

Of the two, I'd prefer to see Smasha, it seems to have more flavor, and ultimate styles don't fit the feel of a martial arts contest, unless the point is to display how unbalanced your ultimate style is.
This message was last edited by the GM at 12:52, Tue 02 Oct 2018.

In reply to Derrick (msg # 46):

Hooray, I ended up doing Smasha.

Mostly because "Ultimate" Style requires you to sink in 9 points into various skills and such.

Hello everyone.  Experienced GURPs player, mostly in fantasy settings.  I have been playing in a friend's ShadowRun game, and thought it might be nice to broaden my horizons by trying a few things I haven't already done.  That brought me here.  Hope I don't get my butt kicked too much.  :)

Hey everyone! I'm totally new to both GURPS and this site. I get the basics if GURPS and I'm sure I will pick more up as I go, but can someone explain a bit on this website? Are there sessions, and if so when?

What do you mean by sessions?  Like, chat games?  This is Play By Post.

For example see the Cowboys and Indians thread.

In reply to evileeyore (msg # 50):

Yeah I know now, thanks tho

Can I get in on the dragon fight?

Yes! right now Dblade is only planning on piloting the knight. The squires do not have a firm owner, though two have been built for others to use.

I may be willing to take part in that thread as well.  Mostly need to sit down and read it, so I'm up to speed on character and scenario.  Or, if you need a character written, I could potentially do that as well.

In reply to Derrick (msg # 53):

Great! What are the details for character creation?

They are in msg # 14 of the knight and dragon thread.

Thanks

What are the rules for disadvantages?

Just follow the Squire Template in DF 15, and then add 25 points.  In general the 25 points should be to upgrade things on Template or buy off disads, but I'd allow other skills or advantages within reason.

What do you say Derrick?
This message was last edited by the player at 01:22, Fri 05 Oct 2018.

Is that on top of the places in the template where you can choose things?

Also, can I buy a higher TL? I had an idea for a guy with a musket.

Yes, the 25 points are on top of the places in the template where you can choose things. Higher TL is forbidden. Actually, character creation requests that you make a knightly squire, armed and trained accordingly.

Just as feedback, I think this combat really showed off three things:

The importance of caution (losing your defenses is *rough*)
Extra attack's primacy (I essentially had double the actions Lane did)
Why fighting competitions have had to ban things like groin hits and eye-gouging.

To be honest, I'm not sure that was much of a fight, but yes...  I agree with all of the items you just mentioned.  :)

Additional suggestions:
* May I suggest a sticky character thread, where we can go to look at characters in a centralized location?  Also, instead of making changes to them with additional posts, edit them in place.  Finding them in the individual threads is in my opinion painful, and time consuming.
* A notice or sticky post for instructions would be good as well (perhaps by scenario).  For example, I don't know what I have to do to get Whisper up and approved.  I probably just missed it in one of the threads, but that's to some extent the point of my comment.  New players may wish to join, so summarizing the guidelines in a sticky would be useful.  Asking them to go hunt down X post in X thread will turn a bunch of people away.  I for one have had to go back and hunt threads a couple times already.  That will get out of hand quickly for the more casual participant.
* May I suggest one thread for preparation, and then another thread for the actual event?  For example, create 1 thread for the Martial Arts competition where we can do all of our discussion.  Then, create a new thread for "Bob versus Gerald".  That way we can discuss offline without cluttering up the event thread.  And, when the next round comes up, you can create a "Gerald versus Penny" thread for that fight.  It just cleans everything up.

My other game is down a bit while my GM gets a new laptop.  I read through the other threads a little to get a good idea of what's going on.  If Whisper is ready, I can do a combat, or I can get involved somewhere else.  From a quick skim it seems like we're already well into the cowboys and indians thread.  I could do something in the knight and dragon thread though.

Thanks.  :)

Depending on your browser, you can set the thread to "all" (at the top with the pages select) and then do a term search.  Makes things a lot easier for me.

In the template, what is the difference between primary, secondary, and background skills? Also, where does it say the bonus for the skill?

That's a true statement EE.  Still, it would be nice for the information to be centralized.  I'll use the suggestion for sure though, it will be useful!

Primary are skills that are, well... primary to the Character's 'job'.  Generally they will have 4 or more points in each skill.  Generally.

Secondary, yada-yada, usually have 2 points in each skill.

Background skills are mostly just there to fluff out the Character, make sure it has a Social skill, a Movement skill (Hiking, Stealth, Swimming, etc), a few 'this is what they did before becoming an adventurer' skills (like Smithing, Survival, etc), and to spread around 6-8 points into 6-8 skills (1 point each).



The Squire, being a 'half template' (125 points instead of DF's standard of 250) has almost all of it's skills at 1 point.  Only the important combat skills get extra love.


Example:

Brawling (E) DX [1]-13



*  So if it just says DX, it's bought at ATT+0.  If it says DX+2 it's bought up to ATT+2.
†  Includes all bonuses.
This message was last edited by the player at 07:04, Tue 09 Oct 2018.

In reply to evileeyore (msg # 67):

Thanks!

In reply to Nicole (msg # 62):

Yeah, those are great points.  That eye gouge was rough with the -10 to combat difficulties.

You bring up good points about the sticky or individual threads Whisper.

Yes you may! I have put up a thread for "Final Characters", and I'll try to stick an index at the front of it as characters go in.



I don't think we have instructions for how to "Approve" a character. Mostly you just need the other players in the scenario to agree that a character is valid. I'm playing GM in some of the games, but I'm hoping for a flatter structure than in most cases.



That's not a bad idea. I was hoping to page clutter, but you're right about sorting through combat threads and ooc threads. This is particularly relevant for the threads that will have multiple fights, like the martial arts tournament.



Whisper needs to assign quirks. The Cowboys and Indians fight is almost over, but we were looking into a second fight in daylight.

I assigned quirks to whisper, and cleaned up the accounting a bit since I removed 1 point from a skill and put it into a perk.  Whisper should be ready for a review.

How are you guys getting the neat character sheet layout?  Is that using GURPs Character Sheet?  I use GCA, maybe i has an export template or something like that?  Just curious, it's nice to have the weights listed out for basic lift, and all the other stuff.  If I could automate that, it would save me a lot of time looking stuff up.

Thanks for doing the character thread, I much prefer to have all that stuff centralized.

I'll have access to the game from work today, but tonight I won't be around much.  If there is a spot in cowboys and indians, I'll take a look maybe tomorrow.

So I had a question about the fight in the martial arts thread. Why didn't Lane get Active Defense attempts against either of the eye attacks, and instead just rolled against HT?

Lane made the classic mistake of making an All Out Attack* and then failing to land the hit.

That ranks right up there with invading Russia in the winter, engaging in land wars in Asia, and betting against Sicilians when death is on the line.




* Note, it's the All Out Attack that removed Lane's defenses.  Not the missing.  But being parried and thus not injuring Demchugdongrub was just the icing on the being blinded cake.
This message was last edited by the player at 04:18, Wed 10 Oct 2018.

Ahh thanks! That makes perfect sense, I suppose I just missed the fact it was an All Out Attack.

Never sacrifice your defense unless you know you won't get hit back.  In GURPs combat, defense is king.  It's meant to be a realistic game system, so getting hit leads to shock, which modifies your defense in the following round.  The whole thing can snowball out of control quickly, as you just saw.

Though, cinematics are likely to go wonky because of things like pressure points and kiais.  A realistic fight would be likely to last far longer without weird disabling abilities (uh... undefended eye-gouging notwithstanding).

All out attacks are very risky. I don't see many people use them, except as finishers, or against foes who can't attack back. We have martial arts, which means committed attack is on the table.

We're using the extra effort in combat rules for martial arts, which means most things you would use an all out attack for can be yours for the cost of 1 FP. I surprised to NOT see those in the combat we just did. see page 131 of martial arts.

Yeah, we were going for the classic Kyokushin style of "all out attack, finish it in one blow" and I had forgotten about the extra effort.

Oh well, we'll get it next time.

Did the rules of the tournament get changed after our match?  I distinctly remember that pushing an opponent out before created a one minute wait, and now it's a way of winning.

According to the previous rules, it created a three minute break. There was no ring-out win condition unless it's been changed.

That WAS an edit, without any consultation with other players or forewarning. It previously said that it was only one participant leaving the platform voluntarily, as in forfeiting. The result of one player getting thrown out of the platform was a three minute break previously. If that had been in place since the beginning I would have built my character entirely differently.

In reply to Dblade (msg # 82):

Maybe we can have a universal chance to re-evaluate our builds?  Just since a lot of us were operating on different win conditions when we made our characters.  (Plus, Push just got wayyyy better.)

EDIT:  Also, can "tapping out" be clarified?  Given that we're otherworldly manipulators of the poor combatants in the ring, the big reasons for tapping out (choking, agony, etc.) doesn't force a player to have his/her character tap out.  Unless there's going to be some kind of will check for continuing when certain afflictions get applied?
This message was last edited by the player at 02:28, Thu 11 Oct 2018.

There was indeed an edit, back on the 4th (if you look at the original fight thread -- either than or its a different edit). I had some memory of people requesting exiting the ring being a defeat, and I was probably thinking of posts 36 and 38 in this thread, by Dblade and Vulco1, both on the 24th of September. It was made just before we started the smasha-Kyokushin fight. I do not appear to have announced the change, either in the martial arts thread, character creation, or in general chat. That is totally my bad, I should have announced it better, and possibly collected more than two opinions before making the change. My apologies. It won't happen again.

If Dblade wants to fight under the old rules for this fight, we can certainly do that. A rebuild to allow tweaks to fit the rules, take advantage of lessons learned, and possibly expand the building rules to allow for more flexibility in spending the "Cinematic skills and techniques" points may be appropriate.

We could also just revert to the old rule for all fights.

Yes, it goes elsewhere.

Its not defended against, its resisted in a quick contest, so criticals don't matter, except for the margin of success.

What really matters is how the recovery roll next turn goes, which is a 50/50 shot.

Since the +2 to my DX-based push roll from CA(Determined) boosted my push attempt, does that mean it also boosted my Push damage, which is based off the same skill, determines my knockback damage and is part of the same attack? Or was it only the attempt to hit? Also, does my Karate damage bonus to barehanded strikes apply?
This message was last edited by the player at 20:11, Thu 11 Oct 2018.

Only things that raise the Skill would effect damage... so no, Committed  Attack (Determined) wouldn't apply...  however...  Committed Attack (Strong) would have.

As for Karate, it increases damage done by Karate attacks, not 'unarmed' attacks*.  For instance it doesn't increase Judo or Brawling attack damage.

However Weapon Master (Unarmed) would apply.



* For future reference if you wanted this combo to apply you'd take the Perk Skill Adaptation (Karate damage bonus with Push).
This message was last edited by the GM at 23:56, Mon 15 Oct 2018.

Thanks that's all really cool to know. Were we supposed to be getting additional Perks because of how we invest points? Because Tai Chi doesn't include it as a Style perk but I thought for every so many points you invest in your style's components you get a perk.

That Perk, Skill Adaptation, comes from GURPS Power-Ups 2 Perks.  Taking it would require GM approval (naturally).

Your style, T'ai Chi, has the Perk "Unusual Training (Push, May not step or move while doing so)", which has only one purpose:  To allow Push to be taken without needing the TBaM Advantage.  If you take TBaM this Perk is a waste of points and detrimental.

Where do you get Perks?  Most of the Templates in Martial Arts have the Advantage "Style Perks [1/perk]" that are available as Advantage choices.

As a note, we can run more than one martial arts combat at a time, if someone wants to fight Whisper.

That Perk, Skill Adaptation, comes from GURPS Power-Ups 2 Perks.  Taking it would require GM approval (naturally).

Your style, T'ai Chi, has the Perk "Unusual Training (Push, May not step or move while doing so)", which has only one purpose:  To allow Push to be taken without needing the TBaM Advantage.  If you take TBaM this Perk is a waste of points and detrimental.

Where do you get Perks?  Most of the Templates in Martial Arts have the Advantage "Style Perks [1/perk]" that are available as Advantage choices.
</quote>

The martial arts book says that you automatically get a number of non-style perks for every certain amount of points spent on your style though?

No.

Martial Arts, pg 124 Style Perks:
"A student with Style Familiarity may buy one Style Perk per full 10 points he has in that style’s techniques and required skills."

This rule supersedes the suggested general rule of "allowed to purchase one perk per 25 Character points invested in your Character" from Basic* Power-Ups 2 Perks.




* I always think that rule came from Basic, but Basic has only the limit of "Rule Zero".

We're at that halftime break in every martial arts movie where the fighters are just walking around staring at each other until a single drop of water falls, or a pigeon turns it's head.

lol

I was going to say this is the first time I've seen a decent lull in a fight that wasn't forced.

I'm impressed with both of them.

The suspense has developed nicely.  What will they do? Continue to circle around?  Or will they choose aggression over patience?

Honestly kinda wanna give up on Baogang's fight. Can kinda see how this is gonna play out and have for a while. It's honestly not much fun fighting a stone wall. XD

Yeah, I'm extremely disappointed in Pingbi's offensive capabilities. Gurps let grappled foes attack (at a penalty), and I can't use Judo to defend him from them. His damage output is super low, so a foe with more power can safely trade attacks. We also Both took enhanced defenses, and that means hitting with anything is pretty darn hard. Grappling also has the break free option, where ST is all that matters, and Pingbi is the weakest guy in the game.

To be honest my thought was the opposite. I can’t touch you and you’ve successfully stopped every attempt cold even at what would be dangerous disadvantage for other fighters, all it’ll take is a few good rolls to lock me up and break my arms or throw me and pin afaik.

Ah - so both fighters are convinced they're doomed.  And here I was lurking in the background, thinking "What an exciting fight this is!  I've got no idea how it's going to turn out..."  :)
This message was last edited by the player at 20:36, Tue 23 Oct 2018.

I realize I should probably introduce myself, out of politeness.  I'm Joe_; I've just been lurking here for a bit, having fun reading the fight scenes. I thought I might hang out and throw in an odd comment or two on the action, if that's ok with the participants.

No problem Joe.

Yeah, this is kind of a chess game of luck and attrition. I saw in the opening of Lane and Grub that we could stand around all day evaluating or get into it. I think both of our styles were the "get-into-styles" anyway. Also, I did't know what I as doing.  Getting some good advice from the commentators out out here.

But this is what two real fighters would be doing if their life was on the line and in game it's only been just over a minute. Lane lasted less than 30 secs.
This message was last edited by the player at 14:32, Thu 25 Oct 2018.

Wasn't it less than 5 seconds?

1st Second:
Demchug: Waits
Lane: Moves

2nd Second:
Demchug: Steps
Lane:  All-out Attack

3rd Second:
Demchug: Eye-rakex2
Lane: Kiai

4th Second:
Demchug: Foot-stomp, Skull kick
Lane: Down


Sorry, I shouldn't nitpick but... huah, it does illustrate how fast things can spiral in combat.

We've actually had plenty of action too, there was that whole quick little exchange of grapple-push-counter-grapple before Baogang broke free, Baogang threw some kicks and even managed to down Pingbi once, and now I'm one bad roll from getting locked up.

Will try and post in the morning. Midterms are kicking my butt.

Whew... Yep, it was, haha.  Spirals out of control pretty quick. I was counting each post as a second, but you're right there were definitely some double moves in there and some talkies.

I was still waking up when I rolled and posted, but I just realized I could've done a normal attack with Mighty Blows and not sacrificed my defense >.<.

I haven't looked at Dungeon Fantasy in any real depth yet.  Pulled it up on Warehouse23, but that's about it.  I needed to prioritize other things like voting (long ballot) and a bunch of extra work stuff.  With luck I have gotten over that hump, and so I should have some time to think it over more seriously.

Question: I have all the major 4E source books.  Do you think that it's worth getting the set?  I haven't run anything as a DM in 20 years, and the purchase seems geared to organizing a game.  Just curious what your impression of the book is, sort of like asking a second opinion.

One thing first:  There are two "Dungeon Fantasy" 'lines' when talking GURPS right now...

DF:  The long series which goes Dungeon Fantasy 1 Adventures, Dungeon Fantasy 2 Exploits, Dungeon Fantasy 3 The Next Level, etc

DFRPG:  The box set.  This is DF... just condensed.  It reprints all the rules from Basic, Campaigns, Low-Tech, and DF that 'are needed' to run a tight 'old schoolish' fantasy heartbreaker game.


My hot take?  It depends on what you prefer.  A quick, easy setup game with condensed rules prepackaged for convenience?  Then DFRP is probably right up your alley.

If you want more then you should either get into DF, or start with DFRP and add the bits of the DF line that most interest you, liken them to supplements.  Most things will line up perfectly.

If you prefer diggin in and 'getting your hands dirty' with campaign building, you might just want to stick with Fantasy, Magic, Martial Arts, Low Tech, etc and do it all yourself.


Personally, while I kinda like what they've done with DFRP, I'd have to add a few pages of rules back in to get what I want out of it (Extra Effort in Combat, some advanced injury rules, most of Martial Arts, a few more points for social skills on each template,etc).

Also, for the next 11ish hours, DFRPG (pdfs) is 24$ at RPG Now:
https://www.rpgnow.com/product...me--Powered-by-GURPS

In reply to evileeyore (msg # 108):

Oooh, so... is it just winner vs. winner in the tournament?

I don't think we've set up a combat system for the tournament yet. I would like to see what the two winners can do to each other though.

And Whisper is ready to go as well.  Anyone want a piece of the action...?  :)

True, somebody should face Whisper's fighter, and if people like we could keep things going with a losers bracket? I'm sure Lane would like another shot where he didn't completely throw away his defenses.

We should most certainly do a loosers bracket. Though we could also do a system where everyone fights everyone else once.

In reply to Dblade (msg # 112):

Lane can fight Whisper if there is no one else.

I like everyone fighting everyone else. Like a Round Robin

Sure, set it up.  :)

EE, I'm leaning towards not getting the dungeon fantasy stuff because my local gaming group doesn't want to try GURPs.  They seem to be hung up on AD&D 5th edition.  I offered to run a campaign for them, and I didn't get much response (for now).

Can you put up the stats for the Knight, and I'll start my work...?

Yes, I like this idea.  See what each of you can do against each other.  Then just compare victory totals.

So do we set up another round in the tournament? and if so, who fights who?

Well, its whispers turn, and Vulco has volenteered to fight, so lets do that one next.

Say, who's Demchug going up against next?

By the original tournament order, Demchug'd be going against Baogang.

In reply to Dblade (msg # 120):

Woooo

Do I repost?

Maybe? I'm not sure.

So right, should Baogang and Demchug fight as well?

Also, I was going to offer a suggestion.  Since the point of this is to learn, maybe give people who are unhappy with their character's performance the opportunity for a minor re-write after their first fight?  Thus far I'm happy with Whisper, but I am sure others are less happy.  I haven't ever done Martial Arts before, but I'm very experienced with GURPs.  Others are probably still learning the ins and outs.

Yeah about that, the way we're running the rules things like Ambidexterity actually have no effect right? Since Martial Arts at default gives no penalty for handedness, only one vs two hands? Baogang did okay-ish, but I'm wondering if I can optimize him better?

I think if you do two parrys in a turn, the second parry is at a negative since it's offhanded.

- Campaign page 376.

I may be looking too hard at it though.

Also, we should get some tournament brackets up.

Karate allows you to parry twice, once with each hand.  Characters 203 under the skill description.

So am I correct in thinking ambidexterity doesn't matter in this tournament or not?

Yes, ambidexterity basically never comes up. Its much more useful for weapons.

To be slightly more clear, there is no 'off-hand' when fighting unarmed.  Boxing, Brawling, Karate, and Judo give single hand parries, so you may Parry without penalty with both hands (individual skills have individual penalties for parrying some types of attacks).  Wrestling and Sumo require both hands in a Parry, so you don't have 'two separate hands' to Parry with.

Each hand's iterative parries are tracked separately.  So, if you Parry twice with your right and once with the left, your first parries with each are at no penalty, the second with your right is at -4*.  Further parries with either hand are at cumulative -4* (-8 for the third right hand, etc)



* -2 with Trained by a Master or Weapon Master (Unarmed Skill).

So to get at the answer to my implied question a bit clearer, where should I put the 5 points I had in Ambidexterity? I also feel like I should redistribute the points I had in Breath Control, as I can't use it in the midst of combat.

Breath Control is part of the template, I think we all took something similar.  As for the Ambidexterity, I had suggested a minor rewrite of the characters after our first battle.  I'm good with it, as long as no one else objects.  I have one minor tweak I want to make to Whisper, but I held off because it wasn't part of the template.

Where did everyone go?  Long weekend or something?

In fact it is.

Also, did we settle the rules on ringout because it'll effect my build.

I made the suggestion, but I don't think anyone in charge gave a final approval.  Not my circus, not my monkeys.  :D

It sounded like ring out is still a thing?

I mean, it makes "roll with blow" a little dangerous, but... not utterly killer.

given the lack of objections, We're going to allow tweaks. Tweaks have the following attributes:

They aren't a rework of the entire character. Points are moved from expenditures that seem ineffectual to ones that appear to be weaknesses.
All changes are explicitly declared at the time they are made. You don't get to just post a new sheet.
Sheets should be still legal according to character building rules

Sounds good to me about the tweaks.

I thought we settled on ring out being a condition of defeat instead of a time-out.

I'll see if some tweaks can be made to Lane.

I mostly want to change 1 perk for Whisper.  Otherwise I haven't seen any real weaknesses (yet).  We'll see how he does against a grabber.  :)

Which fight is up next?

Whisper is ready to go, but others have been waiting their turn.  I feel no need to hog the podium.

Demchug vs. Baogang, maybe?

I think technically that was next. I don't anticipate it going well for me XD

In reply to Dblade (msg # 143):

Oh hush, you'll be fine!

... finely ground mince meat!

So, that was fast. Now what?

Baogang vs. Lane, maybe?  Or Demchug vs. Whisper.
This message was last edited by the player at 07:08, Fri 16 Nov 2018.

https://drive.google.com/file/...Jx0/view?usp=sharing

I gave Baogang a series of tweaks. Replaced Forceful Chi with Extra Attack, got rid of Push since it was hard to have at a high level without Forceful Chi, and got rid of Roll With Blow since I rarely used it even though it's potentially useful. also figured out I only needed to put two points into Breath Control.

I think since I'm using Judo as my base for Pressure Points, I didn't need Pressure Point Strike since it only happens as a secondary consequence of a successful Arm, Leg or Head Lock so the targeting penalty doesn't apply?

I used the freed up points from all this to buff Arm Lock and Pressure Points to reasonable levels and pick up Mental Strength, since I forgot it was on the Tai Chi Chuan skill list and I keep getting screwed by Kiai.

I dropped Fit and Ambidexterity and sacrificed a level of Enhanced Parry to pick up Combat Reflexes.

I'm hoping this build should work better given the lessons I've learned.

Umm... Wow, that fight was fast. What combat comes next?

I think Whisper and Demchug, or Baogang and Lane

Lane will have to wait.  I'm going to be going out of town to China from Tuesday until the end of the month, so about 10 days. I'll try to check in, but I'm sure it'll be hard to do over there.

Muay Thai vs. Smasha!

That will be a good one.

I'm fairly certain E.E's character is still going to stomp Baogang. Technically I have the advantage in grappling, but IIRC his strength is so absurdly high that nothing I do there will work. Will still be fun seeing how long I can last though.

I hope Master Mu Kao wins via punching... if he has to resort to stomping... well...


(Admittedly there is less risk with his shin kicks; if his foe has any DR, even DR 1 Tough Skin, he risks injuring his hand)


17 is not absurd.  Not at 200 points anyway.

I mean, okay, it's high.  Top range human athlete.  But it's not insurmountable.  It's only slightly higher than the average grappling skill.


You want absurd ST?‡

My 250 point DF Barbarian (Wrestler) has an absurd ST.  She has a ST 30 (and it's straight ST 30, no Lifting ST, Striking ST, Arm ST, or any of the ways of getting up there on 'the cheap'*).  And with Power Blow† and few minutes of huffing and puffing and getting ready, no door bars her way!

And she has the Power Grappling Perk.  And DR 10 (Tough Skin).  And isn't allowed in civilized towns...  because she's an Ogress.  And tends to accidentally knock things over.  Like buildings.



* Okay, SM +2 does bring the cost down a bit.

† Skill 11, so, it's one of those "Take Extra Time" things, and Power Blow x3 is probably never gonna happen.

‡ Something I've learned with RPoL is you don't build the character you want to start play with, you build the character you want to end play with.  Because you aren't going to advance with anything resembling rapidity.  After 2 1/2 years of playing that Barbarian Ogress, she still in the first mission and hasn't earned a single exp.  I've been in slower games, and faster games, but it's something to consider when genning up a character.  It'll probably be awhile before you see any points to advance with.

A neat aside but we aren’t really doing advancement with these characters and a two point difference in ST was enough for Baogang to stonewall grappling attempts last round when Pingbi had higher Judo
This message was last edited by the player at 11:57, Tue 27 Nov 2018.

Hey guys.
Back from my vacation.  I had intended to post while I was away some, but my Dad also went into the hospital the day I left.  We almost lost him.  He hopes to go to a rehab facility possibly today, and then we expect he will come home at some point.  Just wanted to explain the absence, since it was more abrupt and complete than I had expected.  Should get caught up on the game in the next day or so.
Thanks!

Ok, which fight is next? II had a rough holiday, and I may have missed something.
This message was last edited by the GM at 16:59, Tue 27 Nov 2018.

Sorry to hear that boss sympathies  and best wishes to you and your family. Next was Whisper vs Demchug and Baogang’s modified version vs Mu Kao

True enough.  But we're all here to learn GURPS on a PbP style set-up... so I was mostly just ruminating on one of the drawbacks of the PbP style.  At least that where that old man rambling digression ended up.


I'll have to reread that one, but I may be able to offer some suggestions for grappling higher ST foes.

I'll try to reread and come back to this later tonight, right now it's off to game night.

Actually on that topic I noticed, it says that resisting a break free attempt gives the grappler +5 if he's holding using both hands (p. 371 of Basic), and Arm Lock's text says you have a +4 when resisting Break Free with an Arm Lock (p.65 Martial Arts), do those stack for a total of +9 because that makes it much more useful

I kind of assume it does, given that the text for 'One Hand Grappling'(Martial Arts p. 116) specifically says you don't gain the additional +5 on the Arm Lock if it's performed with one hand?

Also, since Baogang has multi-attack, can he apply an arm lock and work it for damage in the same turn? Also the text for Pressure Points (Basic/characters p. 215) says that you can apply it after successfully getting a lock and that it happens in addition to any other affects without counting as an attack, but it doesn't say anything like 'on your next turn'. So, can it happen in the same turn the lock is applied?

Yes.  Weren't you guys doing that?

Also note that in a "One Handed Arm Lock" (ie you are holding them using only one of your hands) you're at +0 if they try to break free.


No as the Arm Lock damage is passive and not an attack.  It just happens on the next turn, and every turn thereafter that the Lock is retained, if you want it to.


This is correct.  Pressure Points is just added icing to your Arm Lock cake.

Pingbi only ever used One Handed, to prevent Baogang from rearranging his face with the free limbs, so we avoided it. When Pingbi did decide to use two hands it was for a straight body grapple and Baogang just responded by punching him a lot. I suppose Baogang avoids a bit of that because of Extra Attack letting him follow through on his grapples more often



That's fine, good to know.




Excellent. Strategies are forming now.

For the record, I plan to update the Whisper thread today.  Work has been a bear upon returning from vacation, Dad got out of the hospital yesterday, and now I'm home working with a sick kiddo.  It has been rather dense the past few days.  No rest for the wicked.

In reply to Whisper (msg # 164):

Don't worry if you need some time between posts!  One of the advantages of PbP is that it fits busy schedules.  Take care of yourself and just pop around when time permits!

So, now that Mu Kao is approved, do we get another fight going between him and revamped Bao Gang?

I'm back.  I'll do an update to lane and he'll be ready to move to the next fight.

Sorry Dblade.  The die roller was insanely hot.

Two crits, a near crit and near max damage on both attacks?  Whoosh.



But RNG "paid it back" wasting a crit on a Feint and that terrible critical hit result.

So...do I just give up?

Does the mountain man have 3 attacks in a turn?  I would think you can defend the first attack and then attack back.  Or, does the critical hit on the feint completely muff his defense?

It'd subtract 14 from my defense, which would put me into negative numbers and I physically CAN'T beat his MoS with my judo skill. So I forfeit.
This message was last edited by the player at 23:39, Mon 03 Dec 2018.

That's not really my question, I will clarify.

Let's assume he gets 2 attacks.  In a normal situation, I believe one comes before you, and then the other after you in the round.  He performs an all-out attack.  Even if you fail to defend, it's a feint, so you are uninjured.  That means your next defense is all but impossible.  However, before that next attack is launched, don't you get your attack?

I'm probably not picking up on something, but that's why I ask.  It may be that the critical feint trashes him for the round, so his attack is also null and void.  I just want to understand what happened a little bit better.

I thought I was good at GURPs, but I'll just say I'm solid now.

While an MoS of +14 is nigh impossible for Bao to beat (with a skill of 15 + 2 for Evaluate), you still get a roll.  You might roll a 3 and wipe out the Feint.

And you still get defenses, at least against the second kick (the first was a crit).  Bao isn't making Death Checks yet.

And you can always roll, even at negatives for defense... you just need to roll a 3 or 4 at that point.  RNG might just swing your way man.

[EDIT]
Just to highlight the relevant rule:


Bolding is mine.
[/EDIT]






That was an All Out Attack (Feint), which is basically a Double (so two attacks, but the first is always a Feint) and the second attack a Rapid Strike.

So yes, for this turn, by giving up any chance for Master Mu to defend himself if Bao attacks back, he get's 3 attacks.



Rapid Strike, Basic pg 370:  Trade one attack for two attacks at -6 to skill on both attacks.  So you can take an Attack Maneuver and turn it's single attack into 2 for a penalty of -6.  Or an All Out Double and get three attacks, one at regular skill and two at -6.

Halve penalties with Weapon Master or Trained by a Master.  Flurry of Blows also reduces penalties by half at a cost of 1 FP per attack.

Martial Arts pg 127 outlines Optional Cinematic rules allowing for more than 2 attacks with Rapid Strike, which I presume we're using.

And finally, it's a GM call as to whether or not Flurry of Blows and the halving from Weapon Master or Trained by a Master stack... in my home games I allow it, but I'm not sure if Derrick does.
This message was last edited by the GM at 00:01, Tue 04 Dec 2018.

Nah I'm done. There's no point in making a roll I can't beat, then making a defense roll that'll be subtracted so low I might as well not make it, AFTER my character taking a major wound that rolled well enough to autohit.
This message was last edited by the player at 23:59, Mon 03 Dec 2018.

Ah, so base 2 attacks, and he used flurry of blows for one to get 3 attacks in the round.  I get it now.  Following that logic, you could technically burn 4 fatigue to get 4 attacks in a round at skill.  That's why they call it cinematic, I suppose.

Maybe.  Not sure if Derrick is allowing Flurry and WM/TbaM halvings stack.

Though, you could All Out Attack (Determined) and get those 4 attacks at +1 to skill for 4 FP (also if we're using the Rapid Strike Cinematic rules).

Or Committed Attack (Determined) and get them at -1 to skill.*


* Which I considered, but Committed Attack wouldn't have given Master Mu the Movement to close to 1 yard as Committed only allows for up to 2 Steps.  I also considered letting Bao Evaluate one more time and then pouncing... but eh...  Mu is an overconfident gambler.


Yeah.  A high octane Action/Cinematic game can get crazy pants in combat.

Flurry of blows explicitly says it stacks with trained by a master in martial arts



Note that with extra attack, only three FP need to be burned to pull the stunt off, and one of them is at +4.

That went quickly.

Lane is out of the medical tent and patched up. He's meditated on his losses and his fundamentals and is ready to fight in Round 3! Who wants to fight him?

I'd guess, Mu Kao, Pingbi or Baogang?

---

I worked this up too:

This message was last edited by the player at 16:04, Wed 05 Dec 2018.

I mean to make some minor changes to Whisper, but no time to do it yet.  I'll take the next round.

Didn't Lane and Whisper already fight? Also wanna get a crack at actually testing Baogang in a scenario where nearly three crits in a row don't just insta-beat him.

We could fight again.  I'd like to see how well Master Mu does when two crits in row don't wipe out his foe.

A reasonable proposition!

In reply to Dblade (msg # 183):

I guess it's also me vs. Pingbi or Mu Kao...

Does anybody else want to join the fight between Cowboys (or Cowgirls) and Indians over at the Cowboys and Indians thread?

I retired Pingbi. He lacks the ability to deal damage, and he is very difficult to hurt, which makes him tedious to play and play against. There is a change that would make him viable as a characters, but it involves swapping his karate(12) with his Judo (18) and his arm lock with kicking. That's an exceptional change, and would probably involve reworking his disadvantages as well. It wouldn't be the same character. He would my #1 pick for beating Demchug though. Pingbi had an effective 20 against Kiai.

Lets Run Lane vs. Baogang next. And Demchug vs. Mu Kao.

In reply to Mari (msg # 185):

That sounds good.  I may rustle something up and get in there. Do we need more cowpokes or indians?
This message was last edited by the player at 16:05, Wed 05 Dec 2018.

In reply to Derrick (msg # 187):

Lane is ready.

Baogang's also ready.

I probably don't have the time for Cowboys and Indians, although the interest is there.  Still need to get to the Knight and Dragon thread, which I hope to work on soon.  Looking like I'll get DF for Christmas...

While it would be okay for someone to join me on the Indian side, it is not necessary. I'd prefer if the other players go for Cowboys/Cowgirls to fight my Indian girls. The scenario will be pretty straightforward to avoid having to use a map.

Your ruthers are my druthers.

I'll work up a cowpuncher and we'll see what's up.

I'm about halfway through the character.  I'll have to check through my book when I get home.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:05, Thu 06 Dec 2018.

I couldn't find the template for the cowboys anywhere. I made a character using what Derrick put into the thread.

Derrick if you'll check that when you get a chance and let me know if it's kosher, that would be great.  I added it to my post on the Final Character thread.

In reply to Vulco1 (msg # 194):

Looks good to me (although Derrick has the last word on that of course), but the rifle you picked it a bit too modern. Assume the fight happens in the 1870s.

Cowboys are a constructed template: they are built on the Basic Action Template from Action 4, with no disadvantages, the cowboy package, a weapons package, and 10 extra points. Comanche have two of what I call "terrain" packages and a "package" of 25 points in combat skills.

I posted the basic template and packages in a private message to everyone who had expressed interest at the time. If you can't find a template, feel free to ask me.

The riffle is indeed too modern: its TL6. Some TL6 stuff shows up in the old west, but not at the same time as Amerindian conflicts. We don't have a specific date, but 1894 is almost certainly too late. perhaps you wanted the Winchester 1873?

I forgot about the ACTION books.  I managed to find a pdf so I'll flip through that.

Good catches. I wasn't sure what period of the west we were in.  I'll check out and swap the rifle. And I may have to check the date on the pistol as well.  I think everything else should be to spec.


So what year can I go to for the weapons? 1875? Just want to narrow it down.

Keep it to weapons with TL 5 please. That technically means up to 1880, but I suspect the book only gives you up to 1875. The pistol is 1873, so its legal.

In reply to Derrick (msg # 198):

You got it.  Thanks

Two things:

1 - When I made the Cowboys I used the Perk Early Adopter to ensure the Rifleman had his 'signature' rifle, the Winchester M1873.  If that's unnecessary I'll be happy to shift that point elsewhere.

2 - Today Master Mu shows why All Out Attack can be a bad option*.  But even so, if I'd rolled poorly†, it would now be Demchug raking at eyes and beating up Mu.


I know why Nicole used it: Bonus to Kiai‡ and to close the distance§.



*  I've just gotten lucky with his uses.

†  Like if he'd critically wiffed those kicks or fell victim to the Kiais.

‡  Which has it's value.  And don't feel bad Nicole, I forgot about the Rule of 16 as well (and I run games).

§  For future note, in games that allow 'all' the Options from Martial Arts, you can Move and Attack and use Heroic Charge to ignore the skill penalty and cap.  You do still lose a Defense, but which one depends on what flavor of attack you made.  Martial Arts pg 107.  Use an arm in the attack, can't Parry or Block using that arm, used any other body part (like your mouth), can't Dodge.

Yes, the early adopter perk is unnessary. Go ahead and move it.

The Demchug and Master Mu fight has seen some nice swingy rolls, and its been very fun to watch!

Also, Calling him Master Moo has me thinking of new titles for our enormous friend.

As a FYI my wife bought me Dungeon Fantasy for Christmas.  I told her about it a few days ago when it happened.  I have just completed a Dwarf for another game I play in, and Whisper/Knight are the next items for me to handle.  Can't promise it will be today, but I plan to have them done in the next couple days.

Also, for our information...  It seems our combat options are getting more and more complex every time I look at them.  Is there a good 1 page reference somewhere that summarizes the combat options available?  As an example, it appears Dungeon Fantasy 11 has added a run and hit option?  Someone mentioned it in another game.  I ask because we're all trying to learn here.

I thought I was good at this until some of the more experienced people pulled out details I had never tracked before.

https://drive.google.com/open?...nC2ozB0N6M4EOjZGWJYh

This is a cheatsheet I found a while ago.  It's not everything but it is the basics.

The purpose of this club is to let people practice/show off the finer points of GURPS combat. Gurps does have a lot of options, and some folks know them very well. I think the times I've been the most blown away are when I was GMing a Monster Hunters Warrior who had the chance to raise skill and get nice gear. At about skill-20 with a melee weapon and either weapon master or trained by a master, gurps melee combat suddenly gets a learning curve, and people used to that sort of play can do some insane stuff. I think this also happens in DF, but I've never played DF.

For the basics of melee combat options, I open martial arts chapter 4, and just skim through it for the things I need (the PDF table of contents is great for this). Sometimes it will point you back to the basic set.

For remembering all of the little things, there is nothing like playing the game to learn it. At some point you have to either sit down and pour over books or watch someone who knows all the little tricks, and take notes.

As for knowing about obscure options like DF 11's Run and Hit, That's why I try to specify which books a given scenario is using. I don't think anyone has a list of all those options, other than mental. That option is certainly a surprise to me.

Greetings Balir!

/Stenet, Jednesa, Jareth...


Run and Hit is a Power-Up, an Advantage Characters in Dungeon Fantasy can purchase (and any game with a permissible GM).  It just lets you ignore the skill penalty and cap when you perform a Move and Attack Maneuver.  It costs 10 points and requires specialization.
This message was last edited by the GM at 19:31, Mon 10 Dec 2018.

Yes, I will be playing Balir in Northport.  I spent a *lot* of time tweaking him to get things just right.  In the end I'll probably buy off the racial move and then he'll be exactly what I want.  There are a couple minor tweaks I need to add there, but he's basically ready to roll.  Very similar to the Knight template, so I'm hoping he'll make the dragon thread easier once I really engage there.

My best character is currently Celtic in my friend's ShadowRun: Awakenings (GURPS 4e) game, though.

I figured out why I've always treated Roll With Blow as a defense, in 3e it was only usable if you failed a defense roll.



Man, that was bugging me.

Kromm (Sean Punch) woke up and replied to a thread I started on this topic on the GURPS forums:



Now I'm wondering if Roll With Blow suffers the same penalty when Stunned that Mind Block does...

A rules question. The text on Choke Hold says that if I fail my roll, my grapple still succeeds but I've failed to apply the choke. Does this mean that failing a Choke Hold by less than a critical failure can be a shortcut into grappling the neck, and if so can I subsequently apply a headlock using the neck grapple?

Can you quote the line that says that?  Because I think you're reading it wrong.

I did read it wrong. Weird mixup involving the text for the chin-tucking defense that makes it read as if the opponent succeeding on a parry at all still gives you a grapple but not a choke.

In reply to Dblade (msg # 211):

Say, question that may apply to Baogang, if not Demchug:

Knockback allows for highest of DX, Acrobatics, and Judo to remain standing.  Roll with Blow specifies DX.  Are we rolling with RAW on that?  It certainly does keep Roll with Blow from being full OP...

Um...if it's DX, why is Roll With Blow its own skill that says you roll against it to determine the effect in its description? And why does it feed off of skills like Judo to determine its level?

Edit: Oh duh, it's the roll for whether you suffer knockback and such that matters. Well, handily enough it doesn't really matter for Baogang either way, as even if he failed the flat DX roll I'm 75% certain he can just use Immovable Stance to avoid it if he wants.
This message was last edited by the player at 07:44, Wed 12 Dec 2018.

It is a weird case. I recently had someone claim that it added an EXTRA roll in addition to the normal one. It is odd that it specifies a DX roll without being extra clear that its excluding the normal knockback roll.

I think we have time to consult the sjgames forums on this one, as its not urgent. yet.

I've already got a thread going here, if anyone wants to hop in and get questions lined up:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=161013

[EDIT]
And I see you're already there asking this question Derrick.  /thumbsup
[/EDIT]
This message was last edited by the GM at 18:20, Wed 12 Dec 2018.

As a neat addendum to my much earlier whole line of questioning about what good Sumo Wrestling is and how to best use it with a Tai Chi Chuan fighter, apparently both Kromm and TKD apply the strength bonus to the damage roll to resist falling down from slams as well as make them. Small difference but still nice.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=127248

In reply to Dblade (msg # 216):

Sorry about dropping off the face of the earth.  The rules decision lined up with a work-weekend, since I was chaperoning a debate trip to Nanjing.  I'm back and ready to kiai to the bitter end.

Hey folks,

Just wanted to say hi and that I've requested to join in some of the games. I've been playing GURPS a while but usually miss some of the nuance at the level of detail needed for scenarios like the 1on1 unarmed combat games - or even get lost when having 200+ points to play with.

But, ultimately, I really love these scenario based games and quite like the opportunity to try things out, practice and get to know people while it happens!

Hope you're all having a wonderful festive season and looking forward to playing with you all soon.


I suggested to the GM an Orcs vs Elves(allies) type scenario, which may well happen. Has there been consideration for the use of a hex battle map? They are pretty good for the bigger tactical skirmishes.

Either way. All fun and games!

Yes, teh Dragon v Knight will be a hex map battle.

But there are problems with hex map battles on PbP, specifically the wait time for the GM to update the map, this is why you won;t often see maps drug out in PbP games.

We have had a lot of family through the house (we're hosting CHristmas and New Year's) so I'll be sporadic until after Jan 1st.

It'd make more sense to use a google drawing. But I agree that hex maps aren't ideal.

This isn't going to happen in any of our Martial Arts competitions...  but it's just too badass to not share:

Wrestling Match
https://twitter.com/DovySimuMM.../1087391834903580673

I concur with that observation.  Can't have been good for his knee, but he seems none the worse for wear.

Had some family stuff to attend to, sorry for the absence.

Actually, think if someone failed a takedown attempt hard enough they can get taken down instead, and nothing stopping you from fluffing that as such if you choose to ^_^

Are we done with the Martial Arts tournament now?

I hope not, Master Mu hasn't beaten everyone up yet...



/jk
/butseriously.jpg
;)

It may be a good idea to have a roll call on who is still involved in the martial arts tournament. As well as perhaps make a call to see if anyone is ready to join in. Semester starts see a lot of people drop out of or join role-playing groups.

So. if you're still involved in the martial arts competition, state so here and now. Please include your contestant's name.
This message was last edited by the GM at 15:44, Mon 28 Jan 2019.

Master Mu is always ready to kick butt.  Still have to wrap up the Demchug match however.

Baogang is also ready.

Hey folks. I've just been added to the game. Nice to meet you all. I have not been able to play GURPS before, but I'm a quick learner and will make sure to keep up with the group. I'm very excited to jump in.

Hello fealty. I understand you wanted to try out combat with the magic system in basic? Are do you own either Gurps Fantasy or Gurps Dungeon Fantasy?

I do own gurps fantasy. And I think I could get my hands on dungeon fantasy with some ease.

Be wary, there is a difference between DF and DFRPG.

DF = Dungeon Fantasy, a series that spans 33 supplements and a bunch of Pyramid articles.
DFRPG = The Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game, a 6 book box set with a few extra books published separately.

The former came out over a span of a decade and is Sean Punch's loveletter to old school fantasy gaming, the later is a tightening and concising of the rules into a smaller format.

DF requires GURPS Basic to run, DFRPG requires nothing more than it's boxset.

Ok, do we want to run wizard duels first, or do we want to see what a wizard and a body guard can do against two bandits?

The Fantasy battle wizard template is probably best boosted by 10 to 25 points, but its a very good base. Though for high power levels the DF wizard is preferable.

I don't have the source books, but I'd be SO down for wizard duels!

Alternately, since I do have the martial arts books, I could design and play the non-wizard bodyguard.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:24, Fri 15 Feb 2019.

I could do a pair of banditos.

Note, for Wizard building, DFRPG is the simplest, as it has radically pared the spell list down to "what is useful in a dungeon and not problematic for rulings", but DF is right alongside side it as long as spell picking is keep simple and aimed at "dealing damage, not getting tricksy".

The Fantasy templates, hmm let me look at those again...   ssssss, I'd forgotten how weak they are.

Most of the DF wizards additional power is in spell-count and physical Combat abilities. I find the two templates to be about the same in terms of the difficulty of building. Really, the hard part is spell selection. For that I recommend the free "Gurps Magic spell charts"

If we use the DF wizard, I think a 125 point body guard is appropriate, and then we'd need 5 75 point bandits or 3 125 "Henchmen bandits".

For the battle wizard, I think I'd start everyone but the wizard at 75 points, and use 2 bandits.

We could also use the DF henchman apprentice, who is a weaker caster than the battle wizard but better at melee and costs the same.

Also capacity to start with all Hard spells at 21 (or other stuff, but spells at 21 is a biggee).


DF/RPG has more options... I find the more options a Player has the longer they take...


FACT!


I'll start working up some 75 point banditos.  Are we allowing races from either source (DF or Fantasy)?


I'd almost advise against that route.  He's as 'weak' as the Fantasy Battle Wizard, but has way more options.



Also, we could open it up for more Wizards or do a straight up Wizard duel...  like the Martial Arts competition.
This message was last edited by the GM at 18:31, Sat 16 Feb 2019.

I'd be happy to help make a bodyguard like I said. I'd need some help with making a wizard for wizard duels but that does sound awesome.

Lets start with one 125 point battle wizard from fantasy, one body gaurd, and two assailants. Any 75 point Occupational Template from fantasy is valid for the warriors: archer, peasant adventurer, bandit, barbarian, knight, and wardancer are all valid options. The wizard may drop military rank to buy 20 points of spells instead of 10.

Pip, pip?


Anyone else still around?

I am, just not participating in the Cowboys fight.

It's been awhile, refresh my memory on what set-ups you are interested in.  Maybe we can get something going (if there are other lurking about waiting for something interesting to start up).

I'm around. Mari seems to have left though.

I was going to get involved with wizards, but I recently changed employment and have all sorts of obligations pulling me every which way.

I changed jobs about 6 weeks ago, and sleep schedules and have been sick twice... so the fact that this game wasn't updating didn't trigger with me.


But we just added jackel to the mix (Hello jackel!), so maybe we can get a new tourney going and re-enliven the place.

Hello all,

I want to thank you evileeyore for the invite. I go by Colonel Kane over on the SJGames forum, but when I went to sign up for this, I evidently had signed up for under jackel untold years ago. Anyways, I am in need of learning GURPS, most combat and magic.

I have 5 books for GURPS, both of the Basic book, Ultra Tech, Spaceships, and GURPS Traveller. I had intended to do a Traveller PbP, however with my discovery of GURPS Hammer, I now want to do a fantasy games as well.

Any type of combat you'd to participate in or see run?

A series of simple shootouts in urban environments? A basic "elf vs. orc" fight?

In reply to Derrick (msg # 247):

I have access to the GCS program and I created two Knights. One from the Fantasy? Template and one for the Dungeon Fantasy template. I would like to participate in same basic combat, then work my way up, by adding more. I understand the basic, but would like to 'run through a few' to get comfortable with it. I have read the combat examples on Mook's site, bit still all but the Basic goes over my head.

Ok, lets start with a bandit foe for your knight and we'll work up from there. Could you post your character's in the final character's thread? I'll work up a bandit.

Out of curiosity and because I haven't built a character in a while, the Peasant Adventurer sheet in GCS seems to be a 100 point build, how do we tailor it to fit our scenario for a bodyguard?

EDIT: Nevermind I misread, it works as-is, though it might be a little underwhelming to use, was just thinking of a likely character type for quarterstaff.
This message was last edited by the player at 14:08, Tue 09 Apr 2019.

OK I posted my Knight. I probably screwed it up. I did use GCS, but I did entered the text by hand.

Ok, I see it. as a note, you can save your character sheet as a pdf in the "Save As" function of gcs, stick it somewhere public, and then link to it (google drives are popular for this).

I assume this character is merely based on the template, seeing that you have weapon master and broadsword at DX+6, but only comfortable wealth?

In reply to Derrick (msg # 252):

Yes, it is based on the Dungeon Fantasy template. My youngest two kids 16 and 12 are wanting to play and I figured it would be easier for me to convince the wife to purchase the Dungeon Fantasy 1 PDF at just $8 than to purchase the Fantasy for around $30. I might get the Fantasy for my birthday, but Magic is before it in the hit list.

Hmmm... let's see books you own, Basic Characters, Basic Campaign, Ultra Tech, Spaceships, and GURPS Traveller...

So if you're running a DF game for two teens...  my purchasing recommendations:

Either go all in for the DFRPG boxset pdf (http://www.sjgames.com/dungeonfantasy/) which is $40 and has everything you need (ruleswise) to run a dungeon fantasy GURPS game*... or if you're set on going the DF route†...

In this order, get these books:
DF 1 Adventurers, DF 2 Exploits, DF 3 The Next Level, GURPS Magic (and Pyramid 3-60 Dungeon Fantasy III for the Wizardry Redefined article‡), DF 16 Wilderness, DF 11 Power Ups.  These are pretty much core to running DF, 1 is adventurer templates, 2 is GMing rules, 3 is non-human races and some power-ups for the templates, 18 is GMing rules for outdoors adventures, and 11 is more power-ups and replaces 3 for this aspect.

I'd start with 1, 2, and 3 and Magic at the minimum and get 16 and 11 PDQ.



*  DFRPG Boxset basically combines 1, 2, 3, Magic and Pyramid 3-60 Dungeon Fantasy III. And everything you need from the Basic books.  But... it's kinda limited (at least those of us old hands at GURPS see it as limited) in that it really needs DF 11 and 16.

†  My actual recommendation is to go in with DFRPG Boxset and pick up DF 11 and DF 16.  And then pick up other DF booklets as they strike your fancy, like 3 is good for the extra races that the DFRPG boxset doesn't have, DF 5 Allies is an excellent ally resource (for any fantasy game, not just a DF style game), as is DF 9 Summoners.  DF 8 Treasure tables is a godsend.  Etc.  Then get Fantasy... then maybe Magic someday... then any other non-DF books that strike your fancy (GURPS 3e Religions is great!).

‡  Or ask and I can copy that one particular article from the magazine for you (though It's a Trap! by Christopher Rice is also excellent, if not quite as necessary).




In fact... if someone were running their own Fantasy game and not using the DF line I'd strongly recommend they pick up DF 2 and 16 just for the rules those books have on running dungeons and outdoor settings.  Seriously, I was a long time hold out against the DF series (it was 'too silly' to me) until I read DF 16 (it was recommended on the forums as a "must use for outdoor games", and not just for DF, for modern, Ultra-Tech, Post-Apoc, etc).  DF 16 sold me on the series, so I went back and read DF 2 and discovered the silliness was seriously toned down in DF 2 and thereafter and was just a 'minor thing' in 1 that was overblown.
This message was last edited by the GM at 22:44, Wed 10 Apr 2019.

A further note.

Dungeon Fantasy RolePlaying Game Powered by GURPS (DFRPG Boxset) is an all-in-one setup.  It's literally aimed at being the "GURPS fantasy starter set", in that you don't need Basic, Magic, etc.  However, it doesn't show any of the "under the hood" mechanics and it's pretty thin on the ground for "breadth of resources".  The Monsters book is pretty good, but it's missing a lot that other booklets will bring in.  Spells is a pared down set of the spells from Magic and has none of the extra bits (like Alchemy, alternative magic set-ups, etc).  The entire premise of DFRPG is that Adventurers... well adventure.  They don't brew potions.  They aren't blacksmiths.  That don't rule fiefs.

They leave the safety and comfort of Town and trek out to where the danger is, kill it, and bring back it's treasure.  Party it all away (and buy gear and upgrades, etc) and then go out again next week when they've run out of beer money.

How far did you deviate from that base?  And when you say "Dungeon Fantasy" which book are you referring to... because that's pretty far off template for DF but relatively close for the Knight from baseline Fantasy.

So its based on a combination of the two. The skill list matches the fantasy template but has some different numbers and the [24] points sunk into a primary weapon from the DF knight.

The DF knight and the Fantasy knight have very little to do with each other. DF is based on "Killing Monsters and Taking their stuff". It's "knight" means "heavily armed warrior without innate magical powers". Fantasy focuses more on emulating fiction and to some extent history (or at least historical tales). Its knight is mounted warrior from the aristocratic class who leverages expensive gear (like a heavy warhorse and full armor) to crush his foes. Also, the DF knight is built on over 3 times the points as the fantasy knight.

Notes on the build presented:

• DX is 10, which I'm pretty sure is an oversight. Warriors in gurps need high DX. the fantasy knight has DX 11. The DF knight has DX 14.
• Vow (uphold Queen's Law)[-15] is probably not a [-15] vow, and is certainly covered by his other disadvantages.
• You should have a point total listed with the character. Point totals are very important in gurps. In this group we talk a lot about templates, but that's because this is an arena game.

-----------------------------------

On the topic of books, you really only need the basic set to play. Many people here own lots and lots of books, and so we use them (especially the templates for this game) but they really aren't required, and basic really is a powerful set of rules all by itself. Its helpful to play with other folks to figure out some of the proper numbers for gurps, but that's why you're here!
This message was last edited by the GM at 12:20, Thu 11 Apr 2019.

If it's effectively "Chivalric Code", it's worth the -15.


This is true.  I only went into the depth I did as jackel mentioned buying DF 1... and Magic and then Fantasy...

Which is more expensive than than just grabbing the boxset (pdfs anyway, the physical boxset is going to run I think $75 when they reprint it) DFRPG, and DF/DFRPG is basically "D&D style dungeon fantasy" in GURPS.

Also.... in my opinion DFRPG is just simpler and easier to break into versus 'kitchen sink' DF (the two Basic books, DF 1-3, 11 and 16, Magic, and then anything else you pick up...).

You can totally run a fantasy game out of the Basic books.  Having the DF/DFRPG books just reduces the workload on the GM...

I will create another Knight. It might be Sunday or Monday before I get it up. This is Prom weekend and I am a sponsor....

In reply to jackel (msg # 259):

New Knight is posted as a link. Let me know what I screwed up, please.

I'm pulling 12 hour shifts this week... so don't expect anything useful from me until Sunday or Monday...

Sorry about the delay.

the DX is high. It should be 11, not 12, for [20] points, not [40]
Broadsword should have [2] points, not [8]
Savoir-Faire should have [2] points, not [1]

Other than that it looks good! Yes, it feels on the weaker side, but its a 75 point template, and gurps handles low point play really well.

The knight has a lot of money to spend on gear: its his "power" to win battles. total starting wealth is $20,000. Some GM's limit adventuring equipment to 20% of starting wealth, but a knight can justify putting much more money into his professional equipment. You probably want a heavy warhorse from campaigns page 460. (that's $5,000). Shop around for some armor, but watch your encumbrance (or rely on your horse and shield to get around and go all out). Check out melee weapon quality on characters page 274. Be sure to grab lances: they are your primary weapon.

In reply to Derrick (msg # 262):

I think I got the changes correct. I did not 'purchase a lot equipment for this guy, even though I want him to be a major NPC in my campaign at some point, as since we are going into just combat i did not figure he would need anything other than armor and weapons. Going forward I would drop his armor further down and add more equipment, dang armor is HEAVY. I am envisioning Knights in the nation he is from as both the big heavy hitters that are typical knight, but also a class of swift cavalry. the world TL will be 4 as there will be some black powder weapons, but they will be rare. I know this is the Combat Club, so if I post anything that I should not please inform me. I will save my world posting for the SJG forums. I also tend to get long winded sometimes. Sorry in advance.

Ok, he looks good. Notice the hit location table that gives the DR for each location. I'm intimidated by his protection already.

You will want a horse. If you feel a different horse than the heavy warhorse fits best, go ahead and get that instead.

In the final characters thread, please edit your posts and overwrite them rather than making a new post for each character. This is just to keep that thread clean.

Greetings all!

Played GURPS 2nd and 3rd Editions and have recently taken it up again. I am here to sharpen up my 4th ed knowledge so that I can GM a Monster Hunters Game for some friends.

In reply to Gavvin Quinn (msg # 265):

Do you have any specific Monster Hunters fights you'd like to see for practice?

In reply to Derrick (msg # 266):

Maybe....

I need to get proficient with 4th ed combat so I can judge the balance between my monsters and my PCs.

hunters VS. Zombie horde (perhaps with a Necromancer leader)
hunters vs. Vampire
Hunter vs Werewolf

etc.

My recommendation, make up some Monster Hunters, balanced as you'd expect them to be in your game, and we'll whip up some monsters, and we can run some combats with you running the Hunters.  We'll put all the rolls out in the open so you can get a feel for the numbers.

Or if you want to get rolling immediately I've got a folder full of MH characters already built, and we can use one of those. I have one of most things, Though the experiment is incomplete and the Inhumans are using the rules from sidekicks and templates from pyramid and blogs.

Sorry. Things got hectic for a while here....

I don't mind using your characters. My campaign is going to limit Inhumans, experiments,psis, and witches. So guns and melee only for the most part.

Feel free to set something up andd let me know how we are going to play it.

I put up the first fight. Do you want to take the vampires or the hunters?

I don't have someone running the other side yet. I can run them, or someone can volunteer.

If no one else pipes up, I can take whichever side is unrepresented.

I will take Hunters. How Do we do this...?

Where are pregens located? Map?

Sorry... all new to this.
This message was last edited by the player at 03:17, Thu 30 May 2019.

The hunters are in the Final Characters thread. The last post has a link to a google docs folder with all of the pre-gens in it.

A link to the map is in the thread "Monster Hunter Showdown: Feral Vampires in a Warehouse" The link initially went to the folder where I kept the map: I've updated it to show the specific warehouse. From here, we mostly use that thread for the game. If we need OCC chat, we can create a general Monster Hunter Showdown thread.

Oh good.  I didn't want to have to deal with equipping them...  :P

Hey all, well my life blew up and is still spiraling barely under control. I think someone is having too much fun throwing things at me.
I am still trying to find a way to add a horse to my knight.
I met a guy on the facebook group and have joined a PbP that he has started up. My kids are coming up in a few days and I plan on introducing them to GURPS. I was able to buy the Fantasy and and Magic books plus the Harkwood PDF. Anyways, need to get off of here and back to the house work.

Just throwing a post in here in case Gavvin had forgotten this game...  (I tend to forget my games that don't pop up with new messages.)

Man, the idea of a wizard duel sounds fun -- did I miss anything? I feel like I missed something.

You've missed a number of duels/arenas folding because Players up and walked away.  The Wizard Duel has not started and only Derrick has made a character so far.  Feel free to make a character, I can rustle up Derrick and run a duel or two for you guys if you want to get a better feel for how magic battles play out.

I'm still here, life just got hectic. I don't think I own the books to make a wizard although the idea sounds appealing.

Let us know what kind of combats we want to run. I'm still checking in on things!

In reply to evileeyore (msg # 279):

How many points? What books are allowed?

each duel has its own thread and rules where that is discussed.

I really wanna get in on the wizard duels but I don't have the books to participate.

What are you missing?

[EDIT]
If it's Fantasy, I can copy the Template for you, if it's Magic, I can work with you to generate a spell list... it'll be shallower than what Derrick and VIVIT have access to but, it'll be broad enough for an arena fight.
[/EDIT]
This message was last edited by the GM at 16:43, Wed 17 July 2019.

It's both, unfortunately! and yeah thanks for the offers!

Derrick, VIVIT, gentlemen the arena is waiting for you:  link to a message in this game


Is there something holding you guys back from posting?

In reply to evileeyore (msg # 287):

Oh, wonderful! Where's the map, by the way? There doesn't seem to be anything on the Game Map page.

On the Map Page utilize the dropdown menu and chose Map B.

In reply to evileeyore (msg # 289):

I don't see a "Map B" option.  What page should I start from; the IC thread? I get different results on the Game Map page depending on which thread I'm viewing when I click the "Game Map" link.

Aha.  I think I figured it out.  If so, the mmap should now appear for you under Map B.  Also, Map A should there as well.  (If I'm right, it was a Groups Permission thing, no one but me and Derrick can see all the Groups, so i had to add everyone to A and B.)

Not 100% that this is the right spot, but here goes:

I have an idea for a WWII pilots game, nothing bananas, just regular WWII.  I'm thinking about bombers because it's a crew, and I'm thinking early in the war, circa 40-41, British forces, based in Alexandria.  I'm thinking that most of the game, of the role-playing happens off-mission, in and around the base.  I'm anticipating that players could have a base character as well as a pilot/crew character, and I'm anticipating that there could be some mucking about in the desert or clandestine as well as flying, but that it's primarily a pilots in WWII game, not a cliffhangers game or a weird war game.

The plane I'm thinking of is the Bristol Blenheim because it's historically accurate, it's a multi-role bomber, and it has a crew of 3.

But for now, I want to test out some air combat, and I need people to do it! Stock 50 or 60 point pilots or crew, from the WWII book if you have it.

And...im using gurps 3rd.  Yes, yes.  I know.  Sorry.

I'm new.  How do I start?

There are two arenas at the moment, one... eh... kinda ongoing (The Wizards Duel) in which VIVT has fallen of the face the boards on, and the one Wing Commander seems to be gearing up towards.

If your interested in the Wizard Duel, check out the Wizard Battles OOC thread (link to a message in this game), make a wizard, post him in the Character Creation thread till it's approved (link to a message in this game), then post it in the Final Characters thread (link to a message in this game).

If you're interested in Wing COmmander's aerial combat idea, let him know.  (Personally I'm a bit too burned out from lack of sleep and working 10 hour shifts 6 days a week to think too deeply about aerial combat rules).

Likewise other arenas that got kinda started and then Players bailed out of that could easily be picked back up:  Knight and the Dragon; Monster Hunters vs Vamps.

Or if you have an idea or itch to see how some combat rules work, post your idea over in Scenario Brainstorming.

Hello RPoL!  No, this game is not dead I promise.  Just... really, really deserted right now.

In reply to evileeyore (msg # 295):

And not as deserted as some other games...

So I've been one of the deserters, so sorry about that. :(   But I am back!

I totally understand if you guys would not want to continue the last scenario, it got quite complicated. If anyone is up for continuing nevertheless, I'm game. If someone wants to start something else, I'm game as well.

Hi everyone, I'm new to RPOL and have decided to have a go at this combat game.  I apologize in advance for being a newbie at the rules and stuff.  I assume you're all going to knock the stuffing out of me in no time flat, but I hope to show you at least a move or two before I hit the deck!

I am in the process of creating an Elfin Fighter with some kind of nifty sword fighting martial art style.  Sylvan Swordlore, perhaps.

At any rate, whoever thinks he's tough enough to take me on ... throw down your gauntlet and let's have at it!

Unless you're afraid to fight a ... girl !!!

Just a post in here to keep the forum alive.  I don't think the automated system deletes without a request... but you never know.

Also, I'm still here, just as last year, no time to run anything complex, but simple rules testing fights are right in my speed limit.

In reply to evileeyore (msg # 299):

I am still here as well!

I'm around as well.