Two cowboys are keeping about 200 head of cattle in a scraggly valley their boss recently acquired, keeping the beef in a herd and making sure the coyotes and injuns don't run off with 'em. Four Comanche warriors have found these white men on their land, driving off the game and shooting at anyone who comes too close.

Who actually owns the land? Well, Slick Eddy probably knows. He's passed money back and forth between both groups. Of course, slick Eddy slipped town, is liable to get shot by someone if he does come back, and there would be no reason to believe his answer if you did talk to him. Tom the Indian Agent probably knows. Actually, he probably doesn't, but he's supposed to know, and if you ask him whatever answer he makes up is likely to be the official one. But he's far away too.

In the end, possession is 9/10th's of the law, and out here the law doesn't count for much anyways.

The plan is for the Comanches to sneak up on their foes and kill them. They can afford to be patient, but after the first attack the cowboys will call in their neighbors and it will be much harder.

We are using the high tech and low tech books.

There is a lot of sage brush here, and a number of dry creeks, plus a single wet one. The landscape gently rolls with 3 yard hills taking 200 yards or so to roll (so from hill top to hill top), and the creeks cutting deeply through them.

The cowboys will be moving around, doing their duties and camping through the night. They will be somewhat suspicious of attack, but they have to do their job. The Comanche may pick a time of the day to approach, and if they can stay hidden, a situation to attack in.

Targeted locations, gun-fu(though no one has gunslinger), martial arts, and simplified gun specialties (all long arms use the long arm skill) are in play.

The cowboys use the stats and skills from the basic action template (action 4) with the cowboy and either pistolero or sniper school packages, and 10 points to boost skills they already have. The Comanche use the stats and skills form the basic action template with Desert Training and Bushwacker, plus 20 points in weapons skills. The skills in the template for computer operation are dropped, driving becomes riding or hiking, and pistol may be changed to any weapon. everyone has combat reflexes and one other 5 point advantage (or stat boost). I'll post a worked out version of these characters further down in the thread. Cinematic skills and advantages are not in play.

The cowboys each have a horse, a saddle, 50 pounds of gear and supplies, and a long arm and a short arm. They have their knives as well, but if they have to use them they'll be in trouble.

The Comanches may have any number of iron spears, knives, and axes. They may have TL2 bows, and one pre-1800 musket. two of the TL2 weapons may have a +2 CF bonus.
This message was last edited by the GM at 14:47, Fri 17 Aug 2018.

Comanche stats:

ST : 10
DX : 12
IQ : 11
HT : 12
WILL : 11
PER : 11
SPEED : 6.25
MOVE : 6

Advantages
Craftiness 1 [5] ( Acting, Camouflage, Disguise, Holdout, Shadowing, Stealth, )
Forest Guardian 1 [5] ( Survival, Camouflage, Stealth, )
Sure Footed (sand) [1]
Combat reflexes [15]

Skills
Brawling -13 (DX/ E) at [2]
Camouflage -12 (IQ/ A) at [1]
First Aid -11 (IQ/ E) at [1]
Hiking -12 (HT/ A) at [2]
Riding -12 (DX/ A) at [2]
Naturalist -11 (IQ/ H) at [4]
Navigation (Land) -10 (IQ/ H) at [2]
Stealth -14 (DX/ A) at [2]
Survival (Desert) -13 (PER/ A) at [4]
Tactics -11 (IQ/ H) at [4]
Tracking -12 (PER/ A) at [4]
Traps -12 (IQ/ A) at [4]
Wrestling -12 (DX/ A) at [2]

Weapons: 22 points
Advantages: 5 points
Spend where-ever: 4 points
This message was last edited by the GM at 13:44, Fri 05 Oct 2018.

Riffle Cowboy:
ST : 10
DX : 12
IQ : 11
HT : 12
WILL : 11
PER : 12
SPEED : 6.25
MOVE : 6

Advantages
Acute Vision 1 [2]
Night Vision 1 [1]
Combat reflexes [15]

Skills
Armoury (Small Arms) -12 (IQ/ A) at [4]
Brawling -13 (DX/ E) at [2]
Camouflage -12 (IQ/ E) at [2]
First Aid -11 (IQ/ E) at [1]
Guns (Pistol) -13 (DX/ E) at [2]
Guns (Riffle) -16 (DX/ E) at [12]
Observation -12 (PER/ A) at [2]
Riding (Horse) -13 (DX/ A) at [4]
Stealth -13 (DX/ A) at [4]
Survival (Plains) -12 (PER/ A) at [2]
Tracking -12 (PER/ A) at [2]
Wrestling -12 (DX/ A) at [2]

5 points for advantages
2 points to weapons
10 points to boost skills
1 point to spend


Pistol Cowboy:
ST : 10
DX : 12
IQ : 11
HT : 12
WILL : 11
PER : 12
SPEED : 6.25
MOVE : 6

Advantages
Off-Hand Weapon Training (Pistol) [1]
Weapon Bond (Pistol) [1]
Combat reflexes [15]

Skills
Armoury (Small Arms) -11 (IQ/ A) at [2]
Brawling -13 (DX/ E) at [2]
Fast Draw (Ammo) -13 (DX/ E) at [2]
Fast Draw (Pistol) -13 (DX/ E) at [2]
First Aid -11 (IQ/ E) at [1]
Guns (Pistol) -15 (DX/ E) at [8]
Guns (Riffle) -13 (DX/ E) at [2]
Holdout -12 (IQ/ A) at [4]
Riding (Horse) -13 (DX/ A) at [4]
Stealth -12 (DX/ A) at [2]
Survival (Plains) -12 (PER/ A) at [2]
Tracking -12 (PER/ A) at [2]
Wrestling -12 (DX/ A) at [2]

5 points in gun techniques
5 points for advantages
2 points to weapons
10 points to boost skills
3 point to spend

In reply to Derrick (msg # 3):

Hiking is listed twice for the Native warriors, do I get a point back? ;-)

Distribution of Weapon Skills:

For the Native with the musket:
Guns (Logarm) 8, Bow 4, Axe/Mace 2, Knife 8

For Archers:
Bow 12, Spear 2, Axe/Mace 4, Knife 4

Melee Warriors:
Bow 2, Spear 8, Axe/Mace 8, Knife 4

As the advantage, I'd like to take Striking ST 1.

Spend where-ever: 2 points on Stealth, 1 point on Leatherworking

Which rules from Gun-Fu?

I'm looking through it but life is busy. I want light cinematics. What would you pick?

I'll give it a perusal after work tonight, but for light and fast I'd suggest Range Bands at the minimum.

I would agree with the Range Bands. There are also some nice things for your pistol person.

Ok, relevant parts of Gun Fu:

I'm going to use most of chapter 2, and the parts we aren't using are because of missing advantages and skills.

If you both want range bands, so be it.
"Who Draws First" won't be directly relevant, but similar principles may end up being used.
"Shooting while Mounted" isn't optional but its a good review
"Multiple attacks" is all in play, if you have the relevant traits
"High Speed Shooting" is very relevant and in play
"Tricky Shooting" is in play, much to the native's chagrin. This is probably the most powerful section, as it allows deceptive attacks and feints at a distance. Precision Aiming will require the use of the "dead eye" perk.
"Never go Alone" is valid.

Chapter 3 is notable mostly for perks and techniques: asterisk perks aren't valid (no one has gunslinger), double dagger perks are. All techniques are also valid.

Chapter 4 adds no new rules.

Chapter 5 is superseded by high tech.

That all sounds good to me.  Long day at work yesterday (Fri-Sun are Mon-Fri) and the AC in my house is out*, so my brain is too sluggish to read and comprehend Gun-Fu right now...  hopefully the AC is fixed by tomorrow night and the thinky bits cool off enough to do their job.


* And I live in Orlando Fl, so it's bloody hot right now.

All the best! We had a 2 months long heat wave here where I live, and it finally seems to break.

Your pistol specialist could in theory be thumbing two revolvers. That's quite some firepower. I don't mind that at all, since this is not about winning or losing for me. I just enjoy a good fight.

That's the plan.  Probably the only way to overcome being outnumbered and the inevitable ambush at melee distance...  ;)

That depends. I'd also be okay with a charge on horseback, either all Indians or a part as a diversion.

I'd like to change my advantage to Appearance/Attractive and make use of the Bulletproof Nudity cinematic rule (B417) for a +1 to active defenses due to skimpy clothing. Evileeyore, would you be okay with that?

Since Cinematic Advantages are not in play, I'm going with no.



What year is it jonasthered?  That determines my choices of firearms and what Perks I might need.

And I take this:

5 points for advantages
2 points to weapons
10 points to boost skills
1 point to spend

... to mean 2 points for weapon skills, 10 points for 'non-weapon' skills*, and 1 point anywhere?



* Adverse to 10 points in Perception which would raise two skills... or 10 points in Talents, which would also "boost" skills.

Lets say the year is 1870. Mari has asked to be up against decent firepower, so we want a repeating riffle in play.

The 10 points may boost any existing skill, including weapons skills. Yes, they are limited to skills, not talents.

There's some good choices there.  Definitely gonna need the Handcannon Perk.  ;)


Thumbsup.

Alright, then it's the Striking ST 1.


I'd be fine with 1873 as well.

As a note, the cowboys will have saddle horses from page 460 of basic.

Can I get horses as well? If yes, the spend-where-ever should all go to Riding (Equine).

That's Eeeyore's call. Its a little off the original scenario.

Eeyore is taking his time though. I know he's had a busy last few days though.

I'm fine with the Comanches having horses, by the late 1700's they were a firmly established horse empire.


Sorry.  Friday-Sunday are my "real" work days* (in a restaurant for taxed income) and they are long.  Add to that going without AC for several days... I've been whipped.

But once I get the deets of the Cowboys hammered out, playing is something I can generally do even after work.



* Mon-Thu I do lawn care in my neighborhood... but I mostly have the evenings free (except Tuesday which is my game group night).

Can't wait to get going! :)

Can they be used for Techniques?

I'd be okay with that.

If GM agrees... these are the Cowboys:


Riffle Cowboy:

5 points for advantages
Armorer's Gift (Rifle)
Early Adopter (Winchester M1873)
Tap-Rack-Bang (Rifle)
Tracer Eyes
Weapon Bond (Winchester M1873)

2 points to weapons
10 points to boost skills
1 point to spend
Cavalry Training (Rifle) [2]  Default+2
Hard
Default: shooting skill-2.
Prerequisites: Riding† and any shooting skill; cannot exceed shooting skill.

Combat Riding (Horse) [4]  Default+3
Hard
Default: Riding.
Prerequisite: Riding†; cannot exceed Riding+4.

Hands-Free Riding (Horse) [4]  Default+3
Hard
Default: Riding-3.
Prerequisite: Riding; cannot exceed Riding skill.

Mounted Shooting (Rifle) [3] Default+2
Hard
Default: shooting skill-4.
Prerequisites: Riding†, and a shooting skill; cannot exceed shooting skill.

His Kit:
Spare clothes, Personal Basics, Canteen, Gun Cleaning Kit, Knife, etc.



Pistol Cowboy:
Advantages
Weapon Bond (Webley RIC Number 1, 0.442 RIC) [1]

5 points in gun techniques
3 point to spend
Dual-Weapon Attack (Pistol) [5]  Default+4
Hard
Default: prerequisite skill-4.
Prerequisite: Any suitable shooting skill; cannot exceed prerequisite skill.

Flank Shot (Pistol) [3]  Default+2
Hard
Default: prerequisite skill-2.

5 points for advantages
Armorer's Gift (Pistol)
Cool Under Fire
Quick Reload (Gate-loading revolver)
Quick-Sheathe (Pistol)
Tap-Rack-Bang (Pistol)

2 points to weapons
10 points to boost skills
8 to Guns (Pistol) raising it to a 17
2 to Observation -12 (PER/A) at [2]
2 to Tactics -10 (IQ/H) at [2]

His Kit:
Spare clothes, Personal Basics, Canteen, Gun Cleaning Kit, Knife, etc.



This message was last edited by the player at 07:54, Tue 28 Aug 2018.

I personally think it would be better to not go for horses with the cowboys. The mobility combined with the firepower would turn this into a non-contest quickly. So I would suggest to go for firepower only and leave riding to my Indians.

I'm fine with that. makes for a fun setup.




The Indians have numbers and are built on more points. the terrain slightly favors them and they pick the time and place of the engagement. I'm curious to see how this turns out as is. I also have a hard time seeing a case where two cowboys aren't mounted.

The riffle cowboy needs acute vision if he wants tracer eyes.

So we have the mobile shooter and we have the hail of bullets. interesting.
This message was last edited by the GM at 12:35, Tue 28 Aug 2018.

Alright, then let me know when we can start. :)

Night time.  Unless it's a farmer's moon, most herdsmen don't ride at night, it's too dangerous for the horses.


He started with it under your build.  One level.


It's not really 'hail of bullets', though he can...  it was a hard choice between a higher caliber and the Webley RIC though.  Better chance at hits for lower damage or more damage per actual hit.  In the end I decided the occasional SAPLE round going off was worth the lower damage.

Taking the Winchester 1873 though?  No question.  It's the defining rifle of it's day.


And I forgot how good the combo of Armorer's Gift and Tap-Rack-Bang are.  It's been a long time since I played in or ran a game where those two Perks could matter.

Sorry, I meant a situation where they don't have their horses. They will of course be getting on and off all day long, and even at night the horses will be nearby.



you are correct. Thank you.


It's not really 'hail of bullets', though he can...
</quote>

True, he's built more for minimal down time than for rapid firing.

ok, I think we're ready.

Comanche warriors, please pick at what part in the cowboy's routine you'd like to stage your attack. You can tell the general location of your targets based on the dust of the cattle.

You've got a waxing Gibbous moon, if you want to attack at night. It will be a mostly clear sky (because this is the American Southwest). Vision penalty will be -5.

I suspect we'll see a number of rolls before any attacks are made!

Okay, here's my tactical stuff: During the night, the two girls with bows and the one with the musket will sneak up close to the cowboy's camp and stay hidden. The three with melee weapons will then stage a charge on horseback, to draw the cowboy's attention on them, while the other three hopefully can attack them surprisingly once the diversion is ongoing.

I believe you have four warriors, not 6.

We talked about adding two more and you agreed. Four plus two equals six in my book. ;)

you are correct. My bad.

how close will the ranged warriors get, in yards? Will they bring horses?

How close will the melee warriors get before making their less subtle charge?

The perception or observation rolls will be penalized by the range modifier on the range band, and by the darkness penalty. They will get +5 to per because the Comanche have a fair distance to cover and to wait.

Eeyore, roll a 1d2 for which cowboy is on watch.

do they have a fire?

make a survival roll to pick a camp site: on success you may either get concealment or lines of sight. lines of sight gives you a +1 perception and your foes -1 stealth. Concealment gives you an extra chance to detect someone sneaking in. (yes, this from the DF wilderness rules, and yes, you have to comfort for one of your options)

Feel free to make your rolls to sneak up or to detect intruders now. One roll for all Comanche will do.

The ranged warriors don't have horses. They will sneak up as close as the terrain allows, if they can up to 20 yards from the campsite. They would also look for any rocks that could give them cover.

The melee warriors would lead their horses up a dry creek, if something like this exist. They start later and mount up either when they feel they are being spottet, or when there is no way to hide the horses anymore. Depending on circumstances, they would start their very obvious charge at around 100 yards.

Mari rolled 10 using 3d6 with rolls of 4,1,5.  Stealth roll.

18:55, Today: evileeyore rolled 2 using 1d2.  Rifleman - 1, Pistolier - 2.

Pistolier is on watch.

18:57, Today: evileeyore rolled 9 using 3d6.  Survival 12.

We'll take Sight Lines, with a banked fire let go to coals.

19:00, Today: evileeyore rolled 11 using 3d6.  Perception 13 (12+1).  No Night Vision.
This message was last edited by the player at 23:03, Wed 29 Aug 2018.

Pistolier succeeds by a base of two. He has +1 from clear sight lines, +5 from the time and distance required, -5 from the darkness penalty, and -7 from range, for a net modifier of -6, and a final relative failure of -4.

The ranged Comanche succeed by a base of 4. They have -1 to stealth from clear sight-lines. the final relative success is 3. The Comanche have won the quick contest by 7 (which is the range modifier they closed to, I'll point out).

The ranged Comanche are at the edge of the medium range band. Its -12 to shoot in or out in the dark.

The area within two yards of the banked coals has a vision penalty of -4 rather than -5.

How far from the fire are the cowboys?
How far from the fire are the cowboy's horses?
how far from the horses are the cowboys?
How far are the cowboys from each other?

Will the Comanche intentionally make noise when making their mounted charge, or just not attempt to be quiet?

So do I need to make another stealth roll to close in to 20 yards?

Which, in turn, my Indians messed up.

Mari rolled 15 using 3d6 with rolls of 3,6,6.  Stealth just in case.

The melee warriors will charge openly with warcries to draw the cowboy's attention on them.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:48, Thu 30 Aug 2018.

Our range bands have a break point at 20 yards. You need to either stop just before it or cross the line.

I'm crossing the line.

We're going to use just the first roll.

The ranged Comanche win by 3 instead of 7. They are just inside 20 yards of their foes.

Of course, as far as the cowboys know, the only threat is the whooping Indians coming out of a wash 100 yards or so away.

Pistolier is awake. Riffle will take one second to wake up, and must roll each second vs IQ to comprehend what's going on. combat reflexes gives him +6 at this. Success grants the ability to act the next round, not the current round.

1 - If it's a cool night, probably about 2 yards, if it's warm, further away near a wind break.
2 - About 5-6 yards.  Enough space they can mill a bit without trampling the camp.
3 - A different side of the fire (unless the site geography doesn't work out that way), call it 8-10 yards.
4 - Probably 3-4 yards.  Enough space that the one awake won't disturb the other if he's movin about.


15:43, Today: evileeyore rolled 11 using 3d6.  Riflemen: IQ 17 (11+6).



Technically, we should be rolling initiative... both sides would have +3 due to Combat Reflexes and Tactics.  And then the Commanches would get another bonus for the successful ambush (good Stealth, not broken by my Perception).  But I do understand skipping it for these purposes.

The three missile girls will take aim on whomever they can see, probably Pistolier.

The ranged girls can really only see the pistolier well. They have a base -8 to hit due to darkness and range.

So:

second 0: the riders have exited the wash, formed up, and started towards the campfire at 12 yards per second, making a great deal of noise.
second 1: riffle wakes up. Ambushers expose themselves for first round of aiming. pistol needs an action. riders are 88 yards away.
second 2: riffle comprehends the situation. riders are 76 yards away. Pistol and Ambushers need an action.


Imitative will be rolled when it actually matters who goes what first. I was thinking of popping in and out of combat time, but this is one case where everything really ought to be done in combat time, because every second counts.

Actions:

Round 1 - Pistolier takes stock of his surroundings to make sure this isn't a two pronged attack and to get an idea of where the Comanche Riders will be wheeling the horses around (if they do not dismount and leap into on foot), so he can position himself and Rifleman once Rifleman is up and armed.


Pistolier Concentration Maneuver.  Rifleman waking up.
15:58, Today: evileeyore rolled 11 using 3d6.  Situational Awareness check:  Tactics (Per) 14  (11 + 1 Concentration +2 Combat Reflexes).


Round 2 - Pistolier begins moving to retrieve his rifle form his gear near the fire.  He points out two positions he thinks will be advantageous to firing on the charging Comanches (something like shouting "Get to them rocks!" or "Take the hedge line!").  Rifleman sits up and grabs his rifle.

Pistolier Move Maneuver.  Rifleman Ready Maneuver with Position change.


Unless the Pistolier spots one of the Archers, then his second action changes.

While the three mounted Indians charge, they keep a close eye on the actions of the men to be able to dodge if needed.

The one with the musket and the other two with the bows use all three turns to aim.

eeyore, the situational awareness rule is not currently in play. We are using gun-fu, not tactical shooting, and the rule is meant to negate limited options, not increase options. You may still take a per check to look for other enemies that round. though. It does not benefit from combat reflexes.

Derrick:

eeyore, the situational awareness rule is not currently in play.

Copy.  If we just take the dice roll then against straight Per he still 'succeeds' at MoS 0.  Not likely enough to spot the archers and musket wielder.

Do you want a Tactics roll (on round 2) to find good spots versus the charging Comanches?

Yes, roll tactics on that. with a +2 for time taken, because he would have thought of this when setting up camp.

The result of that won't matter for future actions, so people go ahead and take them for seconds 3 and 4. Right now I have:

second 0: the riders have exited the wash, formed up, and started towards the campfire at 12 yards per second, making a great deal of noise.
second 1: riffle wakes up. Ambushers expose themselves for first round of aiming. pistol looks around for other attatckers. riders are 88 yards away.
second 2: riffle comprehends the situation. Ambushers aim for 2nd second. riders are 76 yards away. pistol moves to his riffle's location.
second 3: Third round of aiming for ambushers. Riders are 64 yards away. Riffle sits up and grabs his weapon. Action needed for pistol.
second 4: actions needed for everyone except riders, who are 52 yards away.

All ambushers are aiming at Pistoleer, since he's the visible one. They all fire in second 4.

If I am not mistaken, the girl with the musket (North West Gun, .50 Flintlock) has a skill of 15, modified by -3 for range, +2 for accuracy, +2 for two more seconds of aiming, bringing her up to 16.

The archers are the same, just with an ACC of 1, so they are at 15.

Mari rolled 10 using 3d6.  Musket girl fires at Pistoleer (16).
Mari rolled 15 using 4d6.  Damage Musket (4d6pi+). (That totals 22 damage. Ouch.)
Mari rolled 10 using 3d6.  Archer 1 shooting (15).
Mari rolled 10 using 3d6.  Archer 2 shooting (15).
Mari rolled 4 using 1d6-2.  Damage Archer 1 (1d-2imp). (That's 8 more damage.)
Mari rolled -1 using 1d6-2.  Damage Archer 2 (1d-2imp). (1 more damage, or is that 2?)

So pistoleer takes a total of 31 (or 32?) damage, unless he has any DR.

The darkness penalty also applies: that's -5. which due to some remarkably even rolling, isn't going to make a huge difference.

Round 3:  Pistolier readies his rifle.
Round 4:  Pistolier moves to/toward his position of cover from the charging Comanches.  Rifleman scrambles up to a crouch.


Figure light leather or thick denim jackets (DR 1).  Which means:

The musket does 31 injury (22 times 1.5 for pi+), and blows through with 10 damage flying into whatever lay beyond (-1 for DR. -10 for HP, -1 for DR = -12 from it's damage for Overpenetration).

The first arrow does 6 injury (4 damage - DR 1 = 3 x 2 impaling = 6), the second is 'stopped' by his jacket and clothes (impaling does a minimum of 1 damage, but DR 1 reduces it to 0).

His HP drops to -27 and he makes two Death Checks, failing the first.  He dies.

14:15, Today: evileeyore rolled 13,8 using 3d6,3d6.  Pistolier HT 12, two Death Checks.

Unless his cover position also included cover from the archers and musketeer.

cover is a matter of quick contest of tactics between Comanche and cowboys.

Was pistol crouching?

18:19, Today: evileeyore rolled 9 using 3d6.  Tactics 10.


Only if it would be beneficial in his cover to the charging Comanches.  Otherwise it would be leaning, standing, laying down, etc.  I have no idea what the cover is like.

Look at the rolls please, the damage you assume is too high. You multiplied damage that I did already multiply.

Mari rolled 6 using 3d6.  Comanche Tactics (11).

Ah, yes.  I caught it with the arrow, not the musket.  Pistolier takes 10 less damage and still dies.

In the future, can we not multiply the injury, just list damage and type?

Ok, riffle is up, armed, and now isolated. His horse is 5 yards away. What's his next move? I'm curious if he survives or not.

As a note, Pistol is mortally wounded, not dead. roll HT for consciousness if it becomes important.

Will the ranged fighters be reloading or will they be switching to melee and closing the distance?

The archers will be reloading, but musket girl will drop the musket and charge on foot, drawing her knife when she can and staying out of the zone of fire for the archers.

He moves to check his buddy.


14:56, Today: evileeyore rolled 14 using 3d6.  Consciousness check Pistolier.  HT 11 (12-1).

How long will riffle take to verify pistol's state?

He'll try to take some cover from the direction the arrows came from and spend a few seconds (call it two rounds) checking Pistolier.  Once he identifies the gaping musket wound (torso through and through) and sees that Pistolier is unconscious, he'll grab Pistolier's rifle and skedaddle to the horses.

second 4: pistol is mortally wounded by three attacks. Riffle is crouching. riders are 52 yards away.
second 5: Riffle moves next to pistol. Archers draw arrows. riders are 40 yards away. musket girl draws knife.
second 6: Riffle checks pistol. Archers knock arrows. riders are 28 yards away. musket girl is 10 yards away.

I'd like actions for riffle and archers for second 7. Riffle can see everyone but the archers automatically. I'm interrupting riffles declared move because the timing looks really close here, and I want to know how long the archers do or don't aim.

If they can, the archers will be aiming.

7 - Rifle continues checking Pistol, trying to rouse him (I refuse to believe one second is enough time for this).

ok, second 7 passes. riders are 16 yards away, musket girl is 5 yards away. Archers have first second of aim. They have -5 (darkness) -3 (range) +1 (acc) = -7.

actions for second 8 requested. I'm interested to see how this goes.


eeyore: I was indicating that he may want to scamper off before he finishes his check so as to not get run down by Comanche warriors. This way will work fine though.

8: Archers keep aiming.

8 - Rifle runs towards the horses.

Also if Musket girl is at 5 yards, she should be visible at this point?  If so, he'll take a shot as he moves.

Yes, Musket is quite visible at this point. She is making no attempt to be hidden, is moving quickly, and he knew about her general position.

Rifleman cracks off two shots with his Winchester as he rises and starts to run away.


OOC:  Move and Attack.  Two shots (no rapid fire bonus), -5 Bulk, +1 for Tracer Eyes.

17:47, Today: evileeyore rolled 9 using 3d6.  Rifle skill 12 (16 - 5 Bulk + 1 Tracer Eyes).

That's a hit at MoS 3, which is the Winchesters recoil!  Two possible hits:
17:51, Today: evileeyore rolled 16,19 using 3d6+1,3d6+1.  Two hits, 3d6+1 pi+.
This message was last edited by the player at 21:53, Wed 19 Sept 2018.

Note, the -5 darkness penalty has only dropped to -4 in the firelight, so no hits.

The cowboy retreats back to the horses as the musket girl follows with the knife. (distance doesn't change, its still 5 yards). Riders are 4 (or so) yards away. The horses are of course wide awake. I'm not sure if they are tied or not. thoughts on that?

I just remembered that on waking up today.  Odd what we think about while asleep, eh?

But, unfortunately for Musket Girl, Rifleman has Night Vision 1, he still get's one hit.


Probably a rope corral, a rope tied off at the horse's chest height.  Trained horses will stay inside it... unless they panic.

On panicking, Rifleman is ex-cav, so he'd have trained his horse to not spook from firearms, Pistolier preferred dismounted firefights, so his horse isn't likely to be firearm trained.

oh, so we're running around in the dark with ropes strung at chest height? That sounds safe.

Each warrior (and animal) should make a perception roll to spot the ropes. Those who aren't aware of their presence roll at -3. Comanche may negate this penalty by rolling vs. survival. Darkness and being in plain site give a net +1.

the musket girl should make a dodge roll.

Musket Girl's luck ends here, as she does not dodge the shot and goes down unconscious and bleeding out.

Mari rolled 14 using 3d6.  Dodge.
Mari rolled 12 using 3d6.  HT roll to survive (12).
Mari rolled 15 using 3d6.  HT roll unconscious (12).

The Melee Girls on horseback all spot the ropes.

Mari rolled 11 using 3d6.  Perception Melee Girl 1 (11).
Mari rolled 7 using 3d6.  Survival Melee Girl 2 (11).
Mari rolled 11 using 3d6.  Survival Melee Girl 3 (11).

Both archers now shoot at the Rifleman (I think they missed).

Mari rolled 13 using 3d6.  Archer 1 shooting.
Mari rolled 13 using 3d6.  Archer 2 shooting.

Rifleman continues vamoosing to the horses.

Riffle needs to roll to spot the ropes too. He knows they are there, but he still needs to see and avoid them. I would like to know what technique he uses.

The horsegirls have only rolled half of what I asked them. The survival roll is to eliminate -3 in penalties, and the perception roll is to spot the rope. melee 1 has failed unless she succeeds at survival, and melee 2 and 3 have eliminated the penalty but still need to roll perception. I'd also like a plan for how to attack riffle behind the ropes, so some other action.

Yes, the archers both miss.

As he's hustlin for the horse "corral", Rifleman is also bobbin and weavin, the itch between his shoulder blades tellin him 'them arrows are comin fer him'.



OOC:  He spots the ropes and ducks under them.  I hope. ;)

16:10, Today: evileeyore rolled 8 using 3d6.  Rifleman, Per 15 (12 +1 Bonus + 1 Night Vision + 1 Acute Vision).

In reply to Derrick (msg # 78):

I made a copy/paste error. Actually, those three should have all been Perception rolls. Survival would have been 13, not 11. Do I still need to roll survival?

Yes, because of the -3 for not knowing they're there. Only the roll of 7 succeeded, but making survival turns those into successes. You can also roll perception for the horses: they've got eyes of their own, and horses are famous for avoiding night obstacles their riders miss. They get the -3 though.

Mari rolled 11 using 3d6.  Survival Melee Girl 3 (13).
Mari rolled 12 using 3d6.  Survival Melee Girl 1 (13).

Looks like all three made it now.

The archers start reloading, while the melee girls close in on rifleman.

second 8: riffle fires off a few shots towards the Comanche on foot. she takes a bullet and goes down. The mounted comanche close to within 3 yards of him. The archers finish their second round of aiming. They have -4 (darkness) -3 (range) +2 = -5.

riffle is standing next to the ropes, with his horse on the other side. everyone has seen the ropes. riffle will act first.

Rifleman stands and calmly puts two shots into the closest charging Comanche, then ducks back and under the ropes (with a Step).




OOC:  Attack, Rapid Fire two shots.
19:17, Today: evileeyore rolled 7 using 3d6.  Rifle skill 15 (16 -3 Darkness +1 Tracer Eyes +1 Weapon Bond).  Rcl 3.
19:21, Today: evileeyore rolled 11, 7 using 3d6+1 pi+, 3d6+1 pi+.  Potential Damage.

Rifleman's target actually managed to dodge both his shots.

Mari rolled 8 using 3d6.  Dodge (10).

(I'm assuming the three on horseback get a melee attack on Rifleman each, so here they come.)

Mari rolled 7 using 3d6.  Attack with Spear (14 -3 darkness = 11).
Mari rolled 11 using 3d6. Attack with Tomahawk (14 -3 darkness = 11).
Mari rolled 7 using 3d6. Attack with Tomahawk 2 (14 -3 darkness = 11).
Mari rolled 8 using 1d6+2.  Damage Spear. (imp, so it's 16)
Mari rolled 7 using 1d6+1.  Damage Tomahawk 1. (cut, so it's 10)
Mari rolled 4 using 1d6+1.  Damage Tomahawk 2. (cut, so it's 6)

Are they dismounting?  Are they trying to perform ride-by attacks?  There is only so much room around a person on foot for three horses... plus the horses in the rope corral he just stepped into.

Yeah, if the comanche are simply trotting up to the rope, only one tomahawk can attack or two spears. Fancier movement can bypass this, but none was specified. The one tomahawk attack is because you can't attack someone with a tomahawk who is in front of your horse, they must be to the side. Now, if you jumped the rope and passed him you could pass him with a fair number of riders, but without crossing the rope, a tomahawk attack must have the horse horizontal to the rope. Spears are longer, and can attack someone in front of the horse, but you still can't crowd in well vs. the rope.

The weapon attack rolls will stay, but the Comanches may choose fancier movement or a different configuration.

The darkness penalty is -4, not -3, but the Comanche get +1 for the height difference. They are moving slowly enough to not suffer speed penalties (unless movement changes).

However, do they have a ride skill? they should, but I can't find it, and mounted attacks are capped by riding...

The B.A.T. has Driving (Automobile, Heavy Wheeled, or Motorcycle) (A) DX [2]‑12, so I'd be fine switching that over to Riding.

I swapped it for hiking, but if they've got horses, it makes sense to swap it for riding. That gives them riding at 12, which caps all melee skills. I'm open to some minor skill adjustments in the weapons points.

Or, they're just using riding at default.

I'd say it comes down to Mari's reasoning, did Mari not know Riding capped skills, or was this just overlooked at chargen (noting that the horses were a late addition)?

This was overlooked at chargen. If I would have build them myself, riding would probably be the highest trained skill.

So how do we proceed from here? I'm fine with not everyone being able to attack, but some should be able to. I have no idea why they should not be able to though.

When the horses were added, riding was not added with them. I would at least suggest swapping hiking for riding on all Comanche. I would additionally allow points to be moved from melee combat skills to riding.

Mari is correct that I pretty much built the bulk of the characters here, using the BAT template. We originally were going to do the Comanche on foot, but it just didn't make sense. I didn't think over how big a change to their skills that implied.

Alright, so can we say the ones with tomahawks swap their spear skill plus hiking for riding, and the other way round for the spear girl? That way riding would be high enough in both cases.

What has to be decided then so that the attacks can get resolved?

you've assigned 10 points to riding in each case. how about moving 6 from each of the "Off" skills and leaving two in their bad weapon?

You need to say which Comanche are attacking, and are each jumping the rope, or are they stopping near the cowboy?

Sure, that's fine.

I'd say one tomahawk girl jumps the rope, the other one and spear girl attack without jumping. As far as I understood, that should be possible?

You probably don't need to jump the rope, that would be harder than just "crashing through" (it's not like the rope is tied to stable posts or anything, just brush) and a failure on the Riding or Jump check is probably far worse than failing to convince the horse to push through the rope (which is just the loss of one attack, rather than a fall from the horse or breaking a horses leg and a fall from the horse).

My suggestion is on the 'crasher' a Quick Contest between Riding skill and Horse's Will.  On a Riding crit success the Horse crashes through, no worries.  On a sucessit crashes through, but gives some penalty to the attack (which might not matter with it being capped at riding), and on a Failure the horse balks and refuses to crash the ropes.

Ok, The position should be doable, though I had to build a diagram to show the positions.

https://drive.google.com/file/...pYS/view?usp=sharing

Okay, so with 16 points in the skill they have Riding skills of 16 (impressive).  Then they dropped their 'off weapon skill' to 2 points.  So the Tomahawk girls dropped Spear to 2 points and Spear Girl dropped Axe/Mace to 2 points?  Giving them 12 with their 'off-weapon' skill?



So then to clarify, Spear Girl rode up first (the first attack roll) and attacked?  This order sort of matters.

I guess so, why is there a difference?

It means both Tomahawk Girls will have to jump/crash the ropes... since Retreating* is always a combat option (unless there is no space to retreat to).


* Taking a Step away as part of an Active Defense roll.


Useful Diagram:
https://i.imgur.com/Vns2GVP.png  (for some reason RPoL post code doesn't recognize this as a link, weird)





And just to move things along...


Rifleman takes the spear to chest and stumbles away gasping...

OOC:  Rifleman dodging Spear Girl.  Failed.
19:18, Today: evileeyore rolled 13 using 3d6.  Dodge 11, (10 + 1 Retreating).

Damage 8 imp - 1 DR = 7, 14 Injury.

19:22, Today: evileeyore rolled 12 using 3d6.  Rifleman HT 12, Consciousness check.

I think we're waiting on a pair of Riding rolls from the Tomahawk Girls to finish this off?

Yep!

My apologies, I got violently ill and it took a while to get the bug out of my system.

Here are the riding rolls:

Mari rolled 14 using 3d6.  Riding roll 1.
Mari rolled 8 using 3d6.  Riding roll 2.

No worries!  Glad to have you back.

Both horses crash through the ropes (will saves were 13 and 14, both failures, and both riding rolls succeeded).

Rifleman still reeling from the spear wound manages to stumble and weave away from the Comanche's tomahawks!

He then takes a further step back* and fires at both of their horses (one hit, one miss)!


OOC: Spending 4 FP.

Feverish Defense +2 Dodge, -2 FP.
15:24, Today: evileeyore rolled 11, 6 using 3d6,3d6.  Two Dodges, Dodge 12 (10+2 Feverish Defense).

Followed by All Out Attack (Determined), Ranged Rapid Shot 2, Flurry of Blows, 2 FP.
15:39, Today: evileeyore rolled 7, 13 using 3d6,3d6.  Two shots at the horses, Guns (Rifle) 9 (16 - 4 Shock - 3 Rapid Shot - 2 Darkness + 1 AOA + 1 Weapon Bond).

15:52, Today: evileeyore rolled 7 using 3d6+1.  3d+1 pi.  Potential damage to horse.


* I know he can move up to half his move (at this point (after injuries) that's 2 Move), but I'm not sure how far away his horse is.

This whole "shoot the Comanche's horses" is hoping they foul one-another and jam the Comanches up 'when the horses panic'.  If they aren't "gun trained" they should be spooking hard.  The other hope was that both would hit, take out both horses and the Comanches would be jammed up having to get up and Spear girl would be hampered by the fallen horses giving Rifleman a second or two to recover and either run away or fire for effect.

I suspect that this tactic has failed...

The horse of one of the Tomahawk girls doesn't dodge, so it takes the damage and is likely spooked (I'm assuming, although I would believe the Native horses have received war training).

Mari rolled 12 using 3d6.  Horse Dodge (8).

The rider works on controlling the mount.

Mari rolled 12 using 3d6.  Riding roll.

The Spear girl and the other Tomahawk girl close the distance to Rifleman and attack again.

Mari rolled 11 using 3d6.  Attack with Tomahawk (14 -3 darkness = 11).
Mari rolled 11 using 3d6.  Attack with Spear (14 -3 darkness = 11).
Mari rolled 7 using 1d6+1.  Damage Tomahawk. (cut, so it's 10)
Mari rolled 3 using 1d6+2.  Damage Spear. (imp, so it's 6)

Both would hit.

Those comanche horses should very much have received war training. I don't know if that trains them to not spook when shot, but a will-based mount roll should cover that (and that turns out to be a 14, which is pretty high).

The Rifleman stumbles back again and weaves away from the tomahawk right into the path of the spear!


OOC:  Rifleman is now at HP: -10.  That's negative 10.  Also at FP: 6.

16:41, Today: evileeyore rolled 11, 17 using 3d6,3d6.  Dodge 12 (10 + 2 Feverish Defense).

16:44, Today: evileeyore rolled 12 using 3d6.  Death Check, HT 12.

16:46, Today: evileeyore rolled 15 using 3d6.  Consciousness Check, HT 11 (10 - 1 First Death Check).

Also he's unconscious, so the fights over.

And the Commanche Horse took 10 Injury, so it should have had to make a Knockdown/Stun check for taking a Major Wound (note I forgot to do that as well with the Rifleman earlier, but I remembered it this time and would have if he'd have made it past the Death and Consciousness checks).  If


[EDIT]
Ooops.  Forgot his leather jacket.  So 3 - 1 DR = 2 x 2 = 4 (not 6).

So he's at HP -8, still not yet at a Death Check.

So... he's still up and moving (slowly).
[/EDIT]

[EDIT=2]
He took an All Out Attack.  I forgot for a moment there...

So... nope, he's down.  No Dodges, means he also takes the tomahawk, adding in that 9 Injury, he's at a solid -17 HP and Unconscious.
[/EDIT]
This message was last edited by the GM at 22:09, Tue 27 Nov 2018.

That appears to be the end of the fight. Numbers, skill, and initiative won out against technology.

Do we want a new thread for the open battle, or do we want to use this same thread?

I did make a mental note about the all-out attack, but forgot about it again as well. ;-)

Mostly, a lucky shot at the beginning decided the fight. That's what can happen when a smaller number of people fights a larger number - any losses for the smaller number are devastating. At least the Rifleman got revenge for his buddy, dropping musket girl during her charge.

As for a new thread, that depends on whether or not others would like to join in. If others join, it might be better to use a new thread.

I'd like to create new characters from scratch if possible. The Indian girls can all have the same stats, which makes it a lot easier. Just tell me a point value and the disadvantages (if any). That way, skills like Riding will be there. ;-)

What should we take as a scenario? Maybe a desperate Indian attack on a wagon train?

EDIT: What was that with HT being reduced after the first death check? Where is that rule coming from?
This message was last edited by the player at 19:14, Wed 28 Nov 2018.

Well, numbers and initiative usually will win out over technology, unless the tech gulf is just too vast.

And the difference between TL 5 and TL 6 just isn't that vast.




Consciousness checks take a penalty equal to the number of Death Checks you've taken.  It's actually written as:


As each of those "full multiples of HP below 0" are a Death Check, so... it's basically "Make a Death and Consciousness check, no penalty for Death Checks, -1 per Death Check for Consciousness".


I just skipped the "at the start of your next turn" for two reasons:  One, it sped up play, and (more importantly) I forgot this wasn't DFRPG*.  (It's slightly different in DFRPG, and I run a houseruled variant of DFRPG).



* In DFRPG it's "roll immediately and again at the start of any turn you want to do more than Do Nothing".

Also, it may have been errataed in Basic.  There was a conversation about this in the SJG forums a few months back, but I can't remember exactly and I'm too lazy to go hunting right now.
This message was last edited by the GM at 21:48, Wed 28 Nov 2018.

In reply to evileeyore (msg # 112):

Ah, I missed that. I only checked on page 380, which states:

"If you have zero or fewer HP left, you are hanging onto consciousness through sheer willpower and adrenaline – or are barely holding together, if you’re a machine. You must roll vs. HT each turn to avoid falling unconscious. If you pass out, see Recovering from Unconsciousness (p. 423) for how long it will take to recover."

Did I hear right that we're starting up a new Westerns battle?

In reply to Dblade (msg # 114):

Yep. I think we're going to run one during the day with less of an ambush situation.

Ooh! I kinda want in, I loved Westerns growing up, and it'll be waaaay different than the martial arts battles. What stuff do I need?

I've received a request for a looser character creation for the next scenario, so we need to decide how that is going to work. I have a strong preference for templates in this sort of thing. The last conflict use the Action 4 book with some tweaks, but not all of the players have own it. So right now we need to work out a scenario and work out a template set to use.

I also don't have the book, so this would be appreciated

Yes, I requested not to use templates for my Indian girls, since we had the situation last time that the template didn't include the Riding skill while some were on horseback, which made it a bit awkward. ;-)

I'm fine with using a template though as long as I have the freedom to include things like Riding, maybe Horse Archery, Hands-free Riding etc.

As for the scenario, it should not be so complicated that you'd need a map to know where everyone is. Updating a map can be a pain. So maybe something like an open charge would be good, where all we need to keep track of is the distance between the parties.

You could always just PM DBlade the Action Template and Lenses you were using.  I'm fine with the two I made.


As far 'open charge' that's fine, and I'd recommend continuing to use range bands for simplicity.

The real problem was that horses were added as an after-thought, when they should have been central to the entire build.

I'll send you folks build information. It will look pretty similar, but will have more options given. In particular, the combat skills will allow for riding skills and techniques (which are really a form of combat). Will that be enough?

Yes, I believe so! :-)

As a thought, I have a (password protected) webpage that allows building BAT characters really fast. If anyone wants access to it, I can grant access and a link. Its nice to be able to say things like: The Cowboys are built with the standard stats, the cowboy package, and one combat package, plus 10 points of skills and 5 points of advantages. Or to say: The Comanches are built with the standard stats, the bushwacker and desert survival stats, 5 points of advantages, and 20 points of combat skills.
This message was last edited by the GM at 16:50, Fri 30 Nov 2018.

In reply to Mari (msg # 111):

I'll get in on another round.  And can you send me access to the batch file mentioned in the above post.

I'm in, and can I also have access too?

Dblade, Vulco, I've given you access via PM. Let me know if you have any trouble using it. Its just a javascript program, so it doesn't have to run on that server, but just saving it from a browser won't work.

I'll check it out very soon.

That is supercool. I like it. I think I came up with the same stuff on my first sheet, so I'll probably stick with that one.  This is cool though, gonna goof around with it.

Ok, I think I'm going to be starting up a different thread for the next scenario. Its going to feature a charge in broad daylight on very similar terrain to what we just looked at. Who is going to be part of this round, and do you have your characters ready?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks Vulco! I love the tool too. I can't make it public though, because it replaces so much of action 4. Wish I could.

In reply to Derrick (msg # 129):

I'm in.  My character is in the Final Character thread for review just below Lane.

He's legal, but you haven't spent all of the points yet. You should have 52 points in skills (if not for an old typo, it'd be 50, as armoury should be [2], not [4], but that happened a while ago). Everything else looks correct.

I'm in too, but in the middle of finals so my cowboy is WIP

Nice.  Made the update.  Thanks

Moved the one point from Early Adopter on The Rifleman to Mounted Shooting bringing it up to 4 points.

Named both Cowpokes:  Earnest Venture the Rifleman and Daisy Dukes the Pistolier.

No other changes.

Nice names.  Were we supposed to come up with 2 each?

Going with John Valentine. and probably Pistolier? What's our makeup looking like, between the two types?

/shrug

I had two from the first Cowboy v Indian game.  The more Cowpokes there are means the more Injuns there'll be.

Gotcha.

Looks like two riflemen and with you, 2 pistoleers.

So if we hold to the previous ratio, there should be at least 12 Comanches.

I'd like the cowboys to decide how many Comanche will be attacking. :-) Note that half will be armed with short bows and knives, while the other half has spears and knives. I'm pretty sure there won't be any shooting back before we enter short range.

So ask yourselves: How many Indians can you take on with your characters?

I think 12 is a good number. 12 Commanche coming over a hill is pretty imposing.

Depends on the range they start at.  Every 80 yards distance and I'd strongly consider doubling the number of Comanches.

So what starting distance and what number of Comanche would you suggest?

I'd be willing to fight 24 starting at 80 yards.

Woof!  24 Comanches versus 4 Cowboys?  That's gonna be a rough fight pardner.

The Comanche are on horseback, right?

Yes they're mounted, and wow 24 is a LOT of foes. Especially given that the Comanche won last time.

And that at least one of our Cowboys is neither mounted nor rifle optimized (I haven't given either of Vulco or Dblade's cowpokes a looksee yet, I just know that Daisy Dukes isn't gonna be much use till she can the white's of them redskin's eyes!).

You guys decide. We can increase the distance and/or reduce the numbers. I don't mind either.

Reduce the numbers.  I guess I wasn't thinking they'd be on horseback. Maybe go to 16? 4 to 1

That was why I suggested a doubling for every 80 yards.  That gives the Cowboys time to whittle down the numbers before we're in the scrum.

[EDIT]
Though they were at 3:1, so 24 would have been a doubling.  Hmmm, I guess I wasn't paying attention and was still thinking there were only 6 to our 4.
[/EDIT]
This message was last edited by the GM at 16:43, Thu 27 Dec 2018.

So we're going with 16? That would be fine with me.

16 at 80 yards means we should end up with 8-10 Comanches by the time they reach 'short range' (call it 5-20 yards).  At which point we're either in the scrum (and it get's hairy with gunplay in melee) or we're in a horse chase/shout-out.

Or both as like I said, Daisy isn't mounted combat optimized (she stands a better chance on her feet in terrain unsuitable for horses).

I thought the cowboys would be on their feet anyways, resting their rifles on something at least in the beginning?

Why?  It's the (relatively) open terrain* during the day.  Unless the Comanches can sneak up to 80 yards before being noticed there is no reason to be sitting around.


* Presumed.  If it's different terrain or circumstances, that changes things.  And with 80 yards distance everyone could easily be mounted and riding by the time the Comanches get to 20 yards, unless the Cowboys are being denied horses for some reason.

Didn't we say you guys were defending a wagon train?

No.  You asked and no one responded.

Then I'm asking again. ;-)

I'm good defending the wagon train.  That's what I was envisioning.

A proper wagon "Train" has a lot more complications than the scenario I was envisioning. It has a lot more civilian targets, an typically more defenders. It also makes it a lot easier for the natives to retreat and come back with a better advantage.

I favor an offensive by the cowpokes. They've located a war party, and they want to force an engagement during the day when they have the advantage. If this is revenge for the first fight, that works as well.

Anyone have thoughts on that scenario?

A wagon train can consist of two wagons...

If we do the Cowboy offensive, their mobility should not be as good as the Comanche's because if it is, it would be too easy to keep their distance to the Comanche while still shooting.

two wagons and 6 cowboys isn't a wagon train, its a cattle-roundup.

I'd like to see cowboys with horses. I'd also like to count ammo. If the Comanche can break contact with the cowboys, that probably counts as a victory, because they can come back and attack at night.

Or a cattle drive where a small number (6) of cowpokes ride off to drive away a raiding force (and thus would of course need to deal enough punishment to make a return of the Comanches unlikely).


So how many reloads do we get to start with?  And is there an "ammo crate" on the wagons?


So they've already won?  Do they need to escape with a specific number (like more than half)?

Those are some great questions.

When I say "Break Contact" I probably mean "Leave the scene", and we're probably using basic chase rules, which would give a slight advantage to the folks with higher riding and wilderness skills.

I have to admit I was thinking of "Win" or "Loose" in less binary terms. There is a continuum of casualties that affect how badly each side has "won" or "lost". The basic scenario is the cowpokes want revenge, and they've got the Comanche at a disadvantage. What do they do with it? If we want numbers, I suppose we can come up with some. failing to drop the 4 to 1 numbers to 3 to 1 numbers is certainly a defeat, and as you stated, halving their numbers is probably a better option.

Number of reloads... I'm leaning against the "Ammo Box" model. Carry your bullets. I'm trying to come up with a method for limiting the weight and cost of the ammunition. $500 and for 800 shots weighing 30 lbs is too much for a single character. Given that WW1 soldiers went into battle with 150 rounds, that's probably the upper limit for the cow-pokes.

Counting bullets and reloads is going to be pivotal to this game, I think. There are some rapidly firing weapons, but once you've emptied your Winchester, its 2 seconds to reload each bullet. I very much think the Comanche have a chance if they time things correctly.

I thought we keep it as simple as possible, that's why I suggested a Comanche charge against stationary Cowboys. The only thing to keep track of would be the distance between the groups (and ammo of course, but that would be needed in any scenario).

If you want to go with a more detailed scenario, that's fine with me as well, but maybe we should do one after the other?

Which is the Comanches.


In what manner would the cowboys have an advantage?


I'd recommend roughly 50 rounds.  Split however the individual cowboy wants (so a riflemen could have more rifle reloads, a pistolier more pistol ammmo).


Unless there is something in this scenario that you haven't mentioned, all they have to do is successfully ride away.

That's probably the best idea. We'll run a simple charge first, with two wagons and an ammo box.

----------------------------

The cowboys have an advantage over the comanche when they can see their movements and fire at a distance without large darkness penalties.

50 rounds sounds decent.

I'm explaining the "retire safely" concept very poorly, it appears. When I said "have a chance" I meant they could possibly engage in combat and win if they time things right.

Sounds good.

Okay...


Sure.

Ok, so it appears that 6 cowpokes will take the charge of a number (24?) comanche warriors. Each cowpoke carries 50 rounds of ammunition, with more in one of two chuck wagons.

Could I get a roll call by the cowpoke players, with each of them saying how many Comanche they think their pair can take? I'd also like Mari to confirm she's ready, or if she's not.

We'll start a new thread for this fight once those details are established.

I'm ready.

Earnest and Daisy are ready.


Is this spades?  Do I gotta call my tricks?

*grumble* /looks across at DBlade and Vulco and sizes up his partners...
I call 10.  And neither one of y'all better call nil, or they'll be a reckonin!





Pretty sure me and Mari are the ones rolling with more than one Character under their control, DBlade made a pistolier and I think Vulco made a rifleman.  But neither have been posted to the Final Characters thread.

I might need to drop from it? I've been having trouble figuring out how to optimize and between that and illness I'm not sure if I'll wind up holding people back even more.

I'm in and ready

And how many can your people take?

Ben will also take 5 Commanches

Ok, so three cowpokes believe they can take the charge of 15. I think you're going to end up dead without the dignity of a burial, but the bets have been made. I'll set up a thread just for the fight.

Nice!

Wouldn't be the first time.  Now I just have to bone up on the range fighting rules, lol.

What should be used as the range and speed modifier at the start here?  How fast are those horses moving or because they are coming at us, there isn't one?

I'd suggest -12 to start (200yds + 12yds/sec for the horsespeed).

First off, I'd like to point out that ponies don't have a Move of 12...  they have a Move of 14.

And I'd like to know if the cowboys have calvary horses or ponies?





It should come down to "each side roll a die, the Cowboys get a +1 for having the Tactics skill" (if Daisy is the cowboy's leader, as she actually has the skill).  However, at the range we're at....  it's really only going to matter if the Comanches decide to use archery in the same turn we decide to fire our rifles.  Which considering the difference in accuracy and the penalties they should be taking for firing while on a charging horse*... it's pretty unlikely that they'll fire first or at the same time.  I suspect the cowboys will get two or three shots off before they close enough to use archery.

Otherwise we'll just be doing a "indians go, then cowboys, then indians" etc.


* Never mind, they've got Horse Archery.  So, we might only get one volley off before they close enough to start firing back.


There are exactly 3 ways to get more than one ranged attack:  Extra Attack (which no one has), Dual Weapon Attack, and Ranged Rapid Shot.

Dual Weapon Attack is identical to melee, have two weapons, make two attacks at -4 to each, if both target the same foe they get a -1 to parries; Area Defense, Precognitive Parry, etc.  Dodge is unaffected.

Ranged Rapid Shot requires a firearm with a RoF of 2+, otherwise it's identical to Rapid Strike.  Can be trained up using the Quick Shot Technique.

There are three ways to increase your RoF; Fanning, Fast-Firing, and Thumbing.  I can explain them if necessary.
This message was last edited by the GM at 00:57, Sat 12 Jan 2019.

I was wandering if I could shoot at one of the comanches, then switch targets? Or just attack that same target twice?  My rifle has RoF of 2

As far as I understand, you could fire twice on one warrior, and if you hit with a number low enough (skill minus recoil value of the gun) then you hit that warrior twice.


Thanks, 12 seemed a little slow.


I thought the cowboys would be stationary for this one?

Ranged Rapid Shot.





Not to my knowledge.  Otherwise I'd have rewritten Earnest who has 15 points dedicated to being a mounted rifleman.


Note, after rereading the last several posts I realize I missed where Derrick quoted your "stationary" suggestion.  If that's the case and the cowboys have no horses, I need that reaffirmed ny Derrick.

Sorry about the delay. Family Surgery, Project Deadlines, and Car Replacement are beasts to all have in the same week.

The horses are the same as before, which means they have move 12. Both Cowboys and Comanches have saddle horses that are used to gunfire. The cowboys may mount up, but the objective is the wagons. If the cowboys abandon the wagons the fight is over. Maybe there's a kid or bag of gold in there.

I want to use the standard range table here.

Everyone knows the other is coming. You may be mounted, dismounted, using the wagons as cover, or in whatever position holding whatever weapons you want. The Comanche go first, and their first action ends them at 200 yards. Then the cowboys go.

So We've got Ben behind a wagon with 1 round of aim (please note if you aim a a bow or a lance). Daisy is inside the wagon, which she's taken the cover off of. Earnest is at position (6,6) (though he be at (8,8) if he wants to. diagnals are like that).

The Comanche are at (0,200) may move 12 yards forward and take an action. If you could specify a formation of sorts that'd be nice.

The Comanche ride in a single row formation, so basically everyone is at the same distance. Unless I specify anything else, they are charging. I am not sure if they can do all-out defense while riding without losing speed, if they can, they will do that (and take a +2 to dodge).

Awesome.  Thanks guys.

Do they have a Move of 12 or a Move of 8 and Enhanced Move 0.5?

The rules are subtly different.  Note, no horse in Basic has a base Move of 12.


So at this point we're waiting for the Comanches to go again*, and Vulco is jumping the gun a bit...  ;)

* Or at least for Mari to declare their action in thread.


Actually...  unless Earnest (or more importantly his horse) was moving at full base Move (or greater) the previous turn, the horse can only 'accelerate' to full base Move this turn.


Two questions:
Where are we declaring 0, 0 to be (so we can better position in our mind maps)?

Is this a completely flat featureless expanse of terrain?






Is there a 'horse width' between them or are they riding knee to knee?


This is...  variable.  The rules are a bit contradictory.

The mounts can take any Maneuver, unless they are moving at high speed*, at which point they have to take either Move or Move and Attack.

The rider can take any Maneuver unless they have to control† their mount, then they have to take either Move‡ or Ready Maneuvers (Move for normal controlling, Ready to regain control of a spooked mount).





* This is where the fact that they have Enhanced Speed comes in.  If they are moving faster than their base Move, they are at 'high speed' and must obey those rules for turning radius, slowing down, etc.

† What constitutes 'control' is ambiguous, but I tend to favor "Any time you have to make a Riding roll", which is any time you change the mount's direction or speed.

‡ I personally also allow Move and Attack, but I don't know what Derrick will be allowing, whether we'll be sticking to RAW § or not.

§ I'll note, that in the last Cowboy v Indians the rules for mounted combat were being largely ignored.  I'd prefer they be followed more closely this time around.

True, and also note that you can brace your rifle by resting it on a wagon for example for an additional +1, and as long as you don't expect the Indians to shoot back (also once they do if you want to live dangerously) you can do an all-out attack for one more +1.

Aiming works like this: 1 turn of aiming: +ACC; 2 turns of aiming: +ACC+1; 3 turns of aiming: +ACC+2. In your example you aimed for one turn.

So assuming you want to have the best chance of hitting your target, you would aim for 3 seconds and then fire in the next turn. Of course that means my Indians would have eaten 48 yards of distance by then. The difficulty would be for you: 17 (base skill) -12 (range) +3 (ACC) +2 (add. aiming) +1 (braced) +1 (all-out attack) = 12. If you're firing two shots, you would hit with both at a 10 or below, since the recoil is 2 (if I'm looking at the correct weapon). If both shots hit, I have to roll better to dodge both as well.

Yes, there is about a horse width between them.

Regarding dodging, I'll wait for Derrick to come back on this then.

I was using saddle horses, so move of 8 and enhanced move 1/2. However, I'm looking at the rules and it occurs to me that every mount will have at least light encumbrance, and some might have medium. I'm upgrading everyone's mount to a cavalry horse (which is actually leaps and bounds better). Everyone has ST 10, and I'm going to use GM fiat to say you all give your horse light encumbrance. barely. This means speed is now 6 the first turn and 12 the second.


Actually...  unless Earnest (or more importantly his horse) was moving at full base Move (or greater) the previous turn, the horse can only 'accelerate' to full base Move this turn.
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They are saddle horses (that aren't gun shy), so move of 8 and Enhanced Move 1/2. And I see where Earnest's slower movement comes from.



(0,0) is just in front of the middle of the two wagons, which are lined up long ways, stretching from (-4,-1) to (4,-1), each 3 yards long with a 2 yard gap between them.

The wagons are at the top of a slight rise, and there is a second slight rise at (0,200), and 200 yards behind the wagons is another slight rise. The ground is dirt or sparse grass, with sage brush appearing in places. If you want to use a sagebrush for something, there will be one 1d3 yards away in a randomly determined direction (Fore, Left, Right, Back, Fore and Left, Fore and Right, Back and Right, Back and Left).




Move and attack does sound valid. I'll allow it. I'm going to require a move maneuver to give a new command to your horse, but if you don't make that maneuver, the horse will extrapolate your command. They're intelligent and highly trained animals after all.

Which means that yes, you can take all out defense dodge.
This message was last edited by the GM at 14:21, Wed 16 Jan 2019.

Thanks EE

Mari, I think we're waiting on you.

I'm really not doing much at this point, but I posted that anyways. ;-)

So, a penalty to the Riding skill then?

I was thinking no roll, but no ability to change the horses's action either. It will either keep moving in the previous direction, stop directly in front of a foe, move past a foe (if its aimed to the side rather than the front), or avoid an obstacle. If you want to do anything else, you need to take a move or a move and attack maneuver.

Does that sound kosher?

Sounds perfectly fine.  /thumbsup.gif

Ben is behind the right wagon.

Is there a reason they aren't getting their full (base) Move of 8 and their full Enhanced Move of 16?


And... if they were just starting at 6 because they were traveling at "cruising speed", then in turn two they could have accelerated to only full base Move.  You have to be moving at full base Move before you can accelerate to full Enhanced Move.
This message was last edited by the GM at 07:01, Thu 24 Jan 2019.

In reply to evileeyore (msg # 198):

Encumbrance. Each horse is carrying at least 150 lbs of saddle, weapons, and rider. Some (most) are carrying more. Any horse (or character) with ST 22 that carries more than 96.8 lbs has light encumbrance, has their dodge reduced by 1, and their move reduced by 20%, rounding down. 8*0.8=6.4 ~= 6. doubling the fraction gives 12.8, which still rounds down to 12.

(6 yards diagonally is 4 over and 4 up)
This message was last edited by the GM at 15:27, Thu 24 Jan 2019.

Doh!

Sorry for the delay, I realized on monday night that I needed to do math to make sure of the range... (since Earnest has ridden out at a diagonal from the wagons and thus has actually 'increased' his (lateral) distance from the rightmost riders...)

√((y2-y1)^2+(x2-x1)^2)

So I figured I'd wait until I was awake enough to do it..  and then...

Today I found a website that would do it for me once I was sufficiently mentally alert to actually do math.  Yay...

http://www.meracalculator.com/...2points-distance.php

Anyway, he's at 102 yards...  booooooo!  If hadn't double checked I'd have used my back of the napkin math and been under 100 yards.

It's a 2 yard fall due to the riding maneuvers being successful. I had that as a velocity of 7, with 10 HP and a hard surface (x2) that should come up to 140/100, so 1d. But I am always a bit wobbly with fall damage.

OMG.  Yeah.  I read "On a success, he leaps clear and takes damage as per 3, above" as meaning "three yard fall".  Sigh.  Lack of sleep kids, it's a horrible drug.


I forgot about the hard surface as well!  /throwsarmsupandscreeches.gif

Your math is impeccable.

Though, you can attempt an Acrobatics (DX-6 at default) roll to further reduce the fall by 5 yards.  Meaning no fall damage.

The above analysis is correct. The riders don't have acrobatics or jumping, though you'd expect them to.

Nope, didn't make that Dex-6 roll.

Mari rolled 15 using 3d6.  Dex-6 check (6).

Sorry y'all. Life got super hectic with a new job and a cross country move. I'll try to check in more often.