The Knight and the Dragon.   Posted by Derrick.Group: 0
Derrick
 GM, 40 posts
Tue 18 Sep 2018
at 17:48
The Knight and the Dragon
A dragon has recently demanded that the small village of shepsfield give him tribute: one sheep a week. The dragon has also offered to accept goats, pigs, cattle, and large numbers of poultry, but shepsfield has more sheep than anything else. While not immediately ruinous to the towns-folk, the tribute is not sustainable. The dragon has threatened that if the tribute is not met he will burn fields, knock over huts, and take a child instead of a sheep.

An Errant Knight has come upon this situation, and promised the towns folks that he will deal with this problem by slaying their Dragon. He is expecting some gifts and gratitude from the rescued village, but more important is to be able to boast about his deeds when he meets with his fellows later in the year.

The Dragon has taken up residence on an old ruined castle (a stone keep with four walls round it). The dragon sleeps on top of the keep. 1/3rd of the walls go all the way up, and 1/3rd of the permiter has been breached or knocked over. The sheep generally feed on poor land with the occasional bush. The sheep land has many mild (5 foot) rises and dips, about every 20 yards. The Fields are much smoother. 1/3rd have wheat, 1/3rd are fallow, and 1/3rd have an odd arrangement of peas and barly. A well tended wood is nearby. The village has 55 houses and 55 households. A castle with a local lord is 4 miles away in a castle of his own, who has mostly abandoned the village to its fate.

The player with the Dragon may decide how to accept their tribute. The knight starts play in the village.

Weapons and armor are from Low Tech. Tech level is 3.

Extra effort is available
Targeting locations is in use
Most optional abilities from martial arts are available. Stay on theme.
The bleeding rule is in use.

I'm torn on character creation. I have an over-abundance of templates. Input would be appreciated. We can use Dragons, Basic Set, Fantasy, Banestorm, and possibly martial arts for templates. Preferences? The Knight will probably be beefed up a little past the basic template. I'm debating if the knight gets assistants, crossbows, or magic items.
evileeyore
 player, 28 posts
Tue 18 Sep 2018
at 19:52
The Knight and the Dragon
We could go full DFRPG here.  Knight template, several to a dozen Hirelings - even a Squire (125 point templates) or two, and a Dragon.
Derrick
 GM, 43 posts
Tue 18 Sep 2018
at 20:53
The Knight and the Dragon
I own DF but not DFRPG. DF is notably missing a dragon, so you'd have to provide a rough outline of its stats.

The DF knight I hadn't looked at, but a second glance reveals that it does allow you to tool it as a mounted warrior. He's a bit impressive, but this is the sort of guy who takes on a dragon for the sake of the story. A knight, a squire, and as many 62 point hirelings as he can convince to come with him sounds decent. For exact balance I'd like to see the dragon, of course.
evileeyore
 player, 29 posts
Wed 19 Sep 2018
at 06:23
Re: The Knight and the Dragon
Derrick:
I own DF but not DFRPG. DF is notably missing a dragon, so you'd have to provide a rough outline of its stats.

PM sent.


Though there are supposed to be Dragon stats in DF Adventure 2 Tomb of the Dragon King (no I haven't gotten it yet either).
Derrick
 GM, 46 posts
Wed 19 Sep 2018
at 15:59
Re: The Knight and the Dragon
got your PM. The stats for the "Medium" look a great deal like the 4th edition conversion Large western dragon, but with 35 ST instead of 26 and an extra die of breath weapon damage. Despite the clash in naming, I think they're meant to be equivalent. I think its a good option: my biggest objection to those templates was the low ST. I've got a table that says 35 is still a touch low for SM+4, but not by much.

Sticking him up against the DF knight, a squire, and as many hirelings as they think they need/can afford sounds fair. So that answers the crossbow question, and the assistants question. Do you think one squire or two is best? Also, which side are you expecting to play?

The knight will need to be of the mounted kind, of course.

We still need to decide if magical gear is on the table. I'm torn on that because it might be necessary to have any chance at all, but it opens a huge can of worms, build-wise.
evileeyore
 player, 35 posts
Wed 19 Sep 2018
at 22:08
Re: The Knight and the Dragon
Against a Small Dragon; a single starting Knight, 2 Squires (125 points each, 8 points each as Allies or $60/day each as Hirelings) and a small group (however many the Knight can afford) of hireling Guards (62 points each, 4 points as Allies or $30/day as Hirelings) would find it a tough fight.  Especially if the terrain favored the Dragon (tight spaces, no good LOS for crossbowmen, etc*).

Against a Medium Dragon, I'd make it a seasoned Knight, call him 300 points, 150 point Squires, 62 point Guards†.  I'd triple his starting cash and let him buy what he felt was needed.

I'm not sure I could adequately balance a fight against a Large Dragon.  I'd probably just say, "Make a 500 point Knight, spend what you want of that on Allies and Points for Cash and Wealth.  Try to have fun."‡




* Not using Martial Arts rules for Close Combat...  ;)
† Hirelings usually don't increase, unless they are Allies.
‡ Mostly because I have a DF Ogre Barbarian Wrestler that if pumped up to 500 points could possibly wrestle a Large dragon into submission...  I mean it would be close.

This message was last edited by the player at 22:12, Wed 19 Sept 2018.

Derrick
 GM, 49 posts
Thu 20 Sep 2018
at 14:23
Re: The Knight and the Dragon
Dragons can be finicky about the ideal tight space. They want to be able to fly, but they also don't want the foe to be able to gang up on them. A ruined castle may actually be close to an ideal location. That or a collection of tight stone canyons.

I think I favor the Medium dragon. Starting cash should be x5, or perhaps even x20: horses are expensive, and I really want to see a classic knight. Limiting magic items to those in the DF books should cut down those complications. I'm looking at how to limit items specific to fighting dragons while still allowing some (10 potions of fire resistance seems a little improbable, but so does having none). The hirelings should receive weekly pay, not daily, with a minimum of 1 week of work. He may have to drum hirelings up from the nearby castle.

The reward for saving an entire village is great: lets aim for 3-10k as the expected reward (they would give more, but someone has been eating all their sheep!). I suspect this is low, but its gives an idea of how much money spent is too much.
evileeyore
 player, 38 posts
Thu 20 Sep 2018
at 20:08
Re: The Knight and the Dragon
Derrick:
I think I favor the Medium dragon. Starting cash should be x5, or perhaps even x20: horses are expensive, and I really want to see a classic knight.

I'd go with x5 starting cash and two free warhorses for the knight and one pack pony.  Then one free riding horse and pack pony for each Squire purchased as an Ally.

Hirelings are separate.

quote:
Limiting magic items to those in the DF books should cut down those complications.

Sounds good.

quote:
I'm looking at how to limit items specific to fighting dragons while still allowing some (10 potions of fire resistance seems a little improbable, but so does having none).

Generally I allow for a d6 roll to be 'immediately available' and then a Reaction Roll for further potions of a particular type.  Every step above Neutral is an another d6 available potions, every step below is a penalty on any further "Can we pay extra for your backstock?" rolls.

quote:
The hirelings should receive weekly pay, not daily, with a minimum of 1 week of work. He may have to drum hirelings up from the nearby castle.

Sounds good.

quote:
The reward for saving an entire village is great: lets aim for 3-10k as the expected reward (they would give more, but someone has been eating all their sheep!). I suspect this is low, but its gives an idea of how much money spent is too much.

Also sounds good.  I expect we have a Questing Knight, one more on the hunt for Glory than for Gold, though money is always great to have.
Derrick
 GM, 51 posts
Fri 21 Sep 2018
at 15:07
Re: The Knight and the Dragon
evileeyore:
Derrick:
I think I favor the Medium dragon. Starting cash should be x5, or perhaps even x20: horses are expensive, and I really want to see a classic knight.

I'd go with x5 starting cash and two free warhorses for the knight and one pack pony.  Then one free riding horse and pack pony for each Squire purchased as an Ally.

Hirelings are separate.

So wealth is free, but the allied squires are not? ehh, fair enough. That sounds like an adequate but not overpowered load-out.

quote:
quote:
I'm looking at how to limit items specific to fighting dragons while still allowing some (10 potions of fire resistance seems a little improbable, but so does having none).

Generally I allow for a d6 roll to be 'immediately available' and then a Reaction Roll for further potions of a particular type.  Every step above Neutral is an another d6 available potions, every step below is a penalty on any further "Can we pay extra for your backstock?" rolls.

1d6 potions available sounds good.

I think its time to start building combatants, which means we probably need to pick sides. I'm thinking of giving the dragon 10 or so points to buy non-combat skills, like intimidate, stealth, connoisseur (princesses), and the like.
evileeyore
 player, 40 posts
Fri 21 Sep 2018
at 18:28
Re: The Knight and the Dragon
Derrick:
So wealth is free, but the allied squires are not? ehh, fair enough. That sounds like an adequate but not overpowered load-out.

Well, I figure the Knight has some adventures under his belt, this gives him money.  But even in DF, Allies are still paid for.

quote:
I'm thinking of giving the dragon 10 or so points to buy non-combat skills, like intimidate, stealth, connoisseur (princesses), and the like.

And how much for magic?
Derrick
 GM, 52 posts
Fri 21 Sep 2018
at 18:40
Re: The Knight and the Dragon
evileeyore:
Derrick:
So wealth is free, but the allied squires are not? ehh, fair enough. That sounds like an adequate but not overpowered load-out.

Well, I figure the Knight has some adventures under his belt, this gives him money.  But even in DF, Allies are still paid for.

I was thinking they were a group who didn't have to pay points for each other (just the hirelings), but Knights do have a huge amount of pull on their squires.

quote:
quote:
I'm thinking of giving the dragon 10 or so points to buy non-combat skills, like intimidate, stealth, connoisseur (princesses), and the like.

And how much for magic?

I wasn't planning on giving the dragon magic. It doesn't feel quite right for the classic knight and dragon scenario. Though he certainly has the stats for it, and one or two spells kept secret from the knight could really make the game more challenging for the knight.
evileeyore
 player, 41 posts
Fri 21 Sep 2018
at 19:06
Re: The Knight and the Dragon
Derrick:
I was thinking they were a group who didn't have to pay points for each other (just the hirelings), but Knights do have a huge amount of pull on their squires.

Hmmm.  I hadn't looked at it in the "they're a group" light.  Though that also makes sense.



quote:
I wasn't planning on giving the dragon magic. It doesn't feel quite right for the classic knight and dragon scenario. Though he certainly has the stats for it, and one or two spells kept secret from the knight could really make the game more challenging for the knight.

Sure.  No magic makes it more of a 'stand up' fight, less opportunities for the Dragon to pull something sneaky.  With even a couple of spells the Dragon get's a lot scarier.



I was hoping to play the Dragon*, so of course I'd argue for more power.  ;)


* But I'm happy taking either side.
Dblade
 player, 8 posts
Mon 24 Sep 2018
at 17:07
Re: The Knight and the Dragon
I'm still a complete newbie but I'd be willing to try and learn how to do stuff in order to play the Knight, if we need a controlling party.
Derrick
 GM, 56 posts
Mon 24 Sep 2018
at 17:52
Re: The Knight and the Dragon
Ok, we have our Dragon, and we have our knight.

The Dragon will be a medium dragon from the DFRPG, or a Large dragon from Gurps: Dragons with brawling skill 16 (plus a few other skills), 4d-1 breath, and ST 35. I think those two descriptions should be equivalent. He gets 10 additional points to spend on skills.

The Knight is a 300 point Knight from DF (or the DFRPG), mandated to be equipped for mounted combat. He has up to two 150 point Squires (for free), who should be built in a similar fashion. The three of them have $7,000 starting cash, plus 4 warhorses and three pack ponies. The horses and wealth don't require points. The knights and squire may skip selecting their disadvantages.

Magic items are from the back of DF:1 or from the DFRPG. They may be freely bought unless they are unusually suited for fighting a dragon (specifically fire resistance potions). Those will be limited to 1 for the group for non-consumables and 1d6 for consumables.

The Knight and squires may attempt to drum up hirelings from nearby villages and castles. As a rule of thumb, a maximum of 1d6 are available for each type, though play could change that number. They must be hired for a minimum of 1 week ($200), and only have 62 points.

Evileeyore is building the dragon. Dblade is building the knight (build the 250 point character first, then add 50 points). It is his option if he wants to build or control the squires. Dblade, do you have access to DF book 1 or the DFRPG? Feel free to ask for help in building the knight and squires.

This message was last edited by the GM at 17:54, Mon 24 Sept 2018.

Dblade
 player, 9 posts
Mon 24 Sep 2018
at 17:55
Re: The Knight and the Dragon
I don't have access to either of those, unfortunately. I'll also definitely need some help.
Derrick
 GM, 58 posts
Mon 24 Sep 2018
at 18:37
Re: The Knight and the Dragon
ok, I PM'd you the knights stats. I think we'll let other folks build the squires.
evileeyore
 player, 43 posts
Tue 25 Sep 2018
at 01:48
Re: The Knight and the Dragon
Derrick:
ok, I PM'd you the knights stats. I think we'll let other folks build the squires.

I* can rough out a pair of squires for DBlade, and leave him some package options to chose from; like a 'melee' squire and a 'crossbow' squire.  Or even just have DBlade tell me what types he wants them to lean towards and I can fill them out and still leave him some options (or we can shoot him the Squire Template from DF 15).


* Unless someone else jumps in wanting to do it.
evileeyore
 player, 51 posts
Sat 29 Sep 2018
at 19:14
Re: The Knight and the Dragon
I'd like to go a bit more tactical on this fight (compared to the Cowboys and Indians), and actually use a map.  I can hunt down a old fort map if that's necessary.
Derrick
 GM, 68 posts
Mon 1 Oct 2018
at 13:17
Re: The Knight and the Dragon
If you'd like to use an old fort map, you'd need to hunt it down.
evileeyore
 player, 54 posts
Mon 1 Oct 2018
at 23:01
Re: The Knight and the Dragon
Derrick:
If you'd like to use an old fort map, you'd need to hunt it down.

I have several I can pretty 'easily' add a hex overlay to (and make more rundown).  So, vote your favs?

From my least to most favorite:
Vardissty Motte and Bailey
https://rpgcharacters.files.wo...d-bailey-patreon.jpg
This one just 'feels' too fantasy... but then it's drawn by Dyson Logos, who makes fantasy maps so go figure.

Ludlow Castle
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...of_Ludlow_Castle.png
Nice clean layout.  But... the grounds 'feel' too big.  Like this is a castle that the lords wouldn't allow to just fall into ruin:  http://www.uk-link.co.uk/locat...astle/castle_map.jpg

Stokesay Castle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...Plan-q75-500x430.jpg
More 'manor house' than motte-and-bailey (despite it clearly being in that style).  But it's a nice clean map I can work with.

Castell Coch
https://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/575236
Mostly I like this one because it actually details the upper floors giving me some 3d to work with.

Haus Murach
https://i.imgur.com/21azYwZ.jpg
I like this one for it's simplicity.  It feels like a border keep that was abandoned when it was no longer needed.

Château Gaillard
http://www.polyolbion.org.uk/F...au-Gaillard/Plan.jpg
Ah, Château Gaillard... it might be 'too much' but you don't get more classic 'crusader front-line stronghold' than Château Gaillard.

And my favorite...
Corfe Castle
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a7/90/b3/a790b3b0bb8f4a1dd8c0860c5e03bb53.jpg
Not only do I have some nice clean maps of Corfe, but it's a 'classic' motte-and-bailey, a beautiful example of 'border hill fort', not small but not 'too big too fail'.


Or, if we want to be altogether too silly:
Tintagel Castle
https://www.english-heritage.o...stle-phased-plan.pdf

This message was last updated by the player at 23:03, Mon 01 Oct 2018.

Derrick
 GM, 72 posts
Tue 2 Oct 2018
at 12:39
Re: The Knight and the Dragon
My personal favorite is Haus Murach, the border fort. Its small, compact, and the walls are already damaged in the map.

Coch is a strong canidate, probably my second favorite. Map detail is a bonus here, and its an imposing castle while not actually being too large and sprawling.

Corfe feels a touch large, actually. I'm not fond of the map you sent: you said you have others, I'd like to see it.

Chateau-Gaillard is also big, but looking at pictures of it makes me think its classic dragon fight territory. But its probably too grand. Tied with ludlow for me.

Ludlow's large grounds can actually be seen as a drawback rather than an asset. Long walls take more men and maintenance. It costs more to maintain without being better, so it could have been abandoned for being a bad deal. Its one of my favorites. tied with Chateau Gaillard.


Vardissty feels more like a walled village than a castle.

Stokesey could work, but I feel meh about it.