Chit Chat.   Posted by Narrator.Group: 0
Esparam
 Human, 83 posts
 Bet Rogala nobility
 Wizard (diviner)
Mon 15 Oct 2018
at 22:28
Re: Chit Chat
In reply to Catweazle (msg # 124):

This makes it more complex, but it does let everyone post in their own time without slowing the whole group.

What other system do you suggest then?

This message was last edited by the player at 22:29, Mon 15 Oct 2018.

Catweazle
 Human, 15 posts
 Druid
Mon 15 Oct 2018
at 23:44
Re: Chit Chat
There's a few variations on a theme, but one alternative:

1) Initiative is only rolled to see who beats the monsters. After that, it's us-them-us-them-us-them.

2) People state their actions in their post and roll appropriate rolls. They probably don't know if they hit or not (unless it's really obvious).

3) At the end of the round (the 'round' being when it's the monsters' turn), the DM posts the results of all the actions by players, as well as 'his bit', the monsters' turn.

That's basically it, and there are many additions and caveats that can get added to that without making it a long, drawn-out process. But it is quick.

Additions can include abandoning initiative after the first round (where the quick ones have already used their advantage), and all actions and turns are executed in the order in which players post. That is HEAPS easier on all involved, but some people get quite anal about initiative, despite the fact that it's a pretty pointless statistic beyond round 1.

Also, posting AC's, HP, one or both, to allow players to know when they've hit, but a higher proportion of DM's don't like that. For some reason, they prefer to punish those players who don't cheat by looking at the Monster Manual ;), and choose to keep AC's etc secret :)

Posting in OOC to be placed in IC after DM's have adjudicated just won't work in PBP format. Well, it WILL work, but it will be so slow that combat will be tedious and a chore, rather than exciting and free-flowing.

There are just some allowances you have to make because of the already-slow format of pbp. Having placeholders in IC, waiting for DM's to tell you whether you've hit, etc, is just extra waiting around that isn't necessary.

To cover some scenarios, most DM's who use the above method (pretty much all of them in one guise or another) will allow players to ask if something is dead before making a choice about their own turn, but it does require the DM to be looking in regularly else it slows things down.

Also, when things are running smoothly, if a character's attack is null because the skeleton he was attacking was killed by a previous poster, then the DM can just switch the attack to the nearest other skeleton, etc etc etc.

Many options and variations on a theme, but it saves an enormous amount of time and helps combat to retain some of the fun that it harbours in tabletop gaming.

This is pretty much how it's been done in most 3.5e games I've been in on Rpol.
Esparam
 Human, 84 posts
 Bet Rogala nobility
 Wizard (diviner)
Tue 16 Oct 2018
at 12:08
Re: Chit Chat
I see.

quote:
1) Initiative is only rolled to see who beats the monsters. After that, it's us-them-us-them-us-them.

I play IRL in another setting where the initiative is team-based, and it's true that it could make things smoother to use a team initiative rather than individual initiative. And then actions are done in the order of the posts.

quote:
2) People state their actions in their post and roll appropriate rolls. They probably don't know if they hit or not (unless it's really obvious).

3) At the end of the round (the 'round' being when it's the monsters' turn), the DM posts the results of all the actions by players, as well as 'his bit', the monsters' turn.

One drawback I see with what you describe is that it puts a lot of narrative power on the GM at the expense of the players' creativity. I personally prefer to know the results of my character's action so that I can write and embellish flavour text, rather than just post the action and let the GM describe what happens. This may make things slower, but for me, it would make things much, much more enjoyable. I like to be able to describe a certain fighting style for instance, which adds to the character's substance.

quote:
Also, posting AC's, HP, one or both, to allow players to know when they've hit, but a higher proportion of DM's don't like that. For some reason, they prefer to punish those players who don't cheat by looking at the Monster Manual ;), and choose to keep AC's etc secret :)

Regarding AC and HP, I admit as a player, I prefer not to know (and merely guess). I prefer being told IC that the monster is gravely injured than to know it has 12hp left. This is about being surprised and keeping the suspense alive for me, as I play for the story and unexpected development more than just to roll dice. And thus I prefer those stats to be secret, so they don't spoil the story for me (eg realising this monster has a higher than usual stat because it's elite or important to the story, buffed by an invisible spellcaster or whatnot).

But clearly, for PbP it is not ideal, and if I had to choose between the suspense of the roll's result and the narrative creativity that comes with being able to instantly know the result, then I think I'd choose knowing HP/AC. Although as a wizard, saves may remain an issue.


I'm looking forward to see what the others think about how we should proceed with combat.

This message was last edited by the player at 12:09, Tue 16 Oct 2018.

Narrator
 GM, 226 posts
 Caladin
 Live Free, Die Well
Tue 16 Oct 2018
at 14:32
Re: Chit Chat
Esparam:
quote:
1) Initiative is only rolled to see who beats the monsters. After that, it's us-them-us-them-us-them.

I play IRL in another setting where the initiative is team-based, and it's true that it could make things smoother to use a team initiative rather than individual initiative. And then actions are done in the order of the posts.


I would like to tackle this one line at a time.

I think one Initiative Roll per combat sequence.

A combat sequence is when initiative is needed. And ends when no more Combat Actions are taken.

I like this better then group initiative because it allows a player or creature to hold an action and gives an equal chance.

For example if a group of goblins win and they all team up against one player he could be out before the fight even begins. Same of course goes for the creature. But if we all roll and go in order of an 'Initiative List' it allows a player to move over and heal, or stand in the way of an opponent to protect etc etc.
I just find old school D&D style 'us-them-us-them-us-them' to be less fair all around.

I will say that if any two groups meet I would take out wizard first, If undead the cleric, If terrain was an issue the range fighter, etc etc. just like any player would.

Give this some thought. Please post what you would like Group Initiative or Individual Initiative

I will say we do not roll every round once a pecking order its given we follow that order unless an action is on hold which moves that person next on list or something effects the order. There are advantages to this. We can also say that every 5 rounds calls for a new initiative roll or some other house rule.

I'm just not a fan of Group Individual.
Narrator
 GM, 227 posts
 Caladin
 Live Free, Die Well
Tue 16 Oct 2018
at 14:53
Re: Chit Chat
Esparam:
quote:
2) People state their actions in their post and roll appropriate rolls. They probably don't know if they hit or not (unless it's really obvious).

3) At the end of the round (the 'round' being when it's the monsters' turn), the DM posts the results of all the actions by players, as well as 'his bit', the monsters' turn.

One drawback I see with what you describe is that it puts a lot of narrative power on the GM at the expense of the players' creativity. I personally prefer to know the results of my character's action so that I can write and embellish flavour text, rather than just post the action and let the GM describe what happens. This may make things slower, but for me, it would make things much, much more enjoyable. I like to be able to describe a certain fighting style for instance, which adds to the character's substance.


This one I think is actually easy. I post the DC/TN and or AC etc etc for each creature. So a player makes his rolls and posts. You know right away if you succeeded or not (not needed to wait for DM). No need to hide it in most cases. If the DC/TN and or AC needs to be secret then we will have to play it as it goes.

I'm also worry about players over stepping or assuming actions out of turn. The first player says he chops of the hand of the target because he rolled a 20 and max damage, Yes it's a great hit and Yes maybe the creature is dead (which is fine to say the hand was removed). But what if the creature was alive, you now just said he has no hand ?? can he still attack - realistic NO - and he would take negatives for the loss of a hand etc etc. This is the point we need to set an understanding before we get to combat.

I want players to have full control over THEIR characters and actions but the descriptions need to be done so it's fair all around. I can list Hit Points so if a player did enough damage he/she can post without worries.

Again in some cases the Hit Points will be secret and we will need to adjust accordingly.
Narrator
 GM, 228 posts
 Caladin
 Live Free, Die Well
Tue 16 Oct 2018
at 15:19
Re: Chit Chat
Esparam:
quote:
Also, posting AC's, HP, one or both, to allow players to know when they've hit, but a higher proportion of DM's don't like that. For some reason, they prefer to punish those players who don't cheat by looking at the Monster Manual ;), and choose to keep AC's etc secret :)

Regarding AC and HP, I admit as a player, I prefer not to know (and merely guess). I prefer being told IC that the monster is gravely injured than to know it has 12hp left. This is about being surprised and keeping the suspense alive for me, as I play for the story and unexpected development more than just to roll dice. And thus I prefer those stats to be secret, so they don't spoil the story for me (eg realising this monster has a higher than usual stat because it's elite or important to the story, buffed by an invisible spellcaster or whatnot).

But clearly, for PbP it is not ideal, and if I had to choose between the suspense of the roll's result and the narrative creativity that comes with being able to instantly know the result, then I think I'd choose knowing HP/AC. Although as a wizard, saves may remain an issue.

I'm looking forward to see what the others think about how we should proceed with combat.


I don't see this as an issue I only keep key info, spell lists, and these type of things secret to keep the challenge up. The info on a goblin, or any other adventure encounter can be open knowledge The stuff that should be secret are thing that have a counter effect if failed, like a trap. Or the lead villains.
Tarrano Grazlak
 Hobgoblin, 75 posts
 Krangi
 Rogue
Tue 16 Oct 2018
at 17:18
Re: Chit Chat
  • 1 - I would prefer individual Init at least to start and then go by posting order once things are started. One GM I was in would after everyone roll Init create starter posts in the Init Order for people to edit in their actions. Another Has everyone go in order the first round and then it's just posting order.


quote:
As an example, PC1 15 Init, PC2 12 Init, PC3 5 Init. NPC1 18 Init, NPC2 7 Init.

1st round - NPC1 Goes, then PC1, then PC2, NPC2, PC3
2nd Round - NPC1 Goes PC1 or PC2 goes based upon when they post, then NPC2, Then PC3.


  • 2) I would just post the Monsters AC and DC's. Leave the descriptive text to the players where they can say they feinted this way, then reversed the blade to strike. the DM would then determine what his wounds look like.

Narrator
 GM, 230 posts
 Caladin
 Live Free, Die Well
Tue 16 Oct 2018
at 18:12
Re: Chit Chat
Tarrano Grazlak:
  • 1 - I would prefer individual Init at least to start and then go by posting order once things are started. One GM I was in would after everyone roll Init create starter posts in the Init Order for people to edit in their actions. Another Has everyone go in order the first round and then it's just posting order.


quote:
As an example, PC1 15 Init, PC2 12 Init, PC3 5 Init. NPC1 18 Init, NPC2 7 Init.

1st round - NPC1 Goes, then PC1, then PC2, NPC2, PC3
2nd Round - NPC1 Goes PC1 or PC2 goes based upon when they post, then NPC2, Then PC3.


  • 2) I would just post the Monsters AC and DC's. Leave the descriptive text to the players where they can say they feinted this way, then reversed the blade to strike. the DM would then determine what his wounds look like.


I like and agree, almost what I was looking for.
Just a few mechanics to think about. Holding an action so a player can react.
And
Time waiting if we go with posting in order (Players have to agree they can be skipped if they don't post within 24hr) We have to be strict not like we have been with the ICs so far in intros.

What about a Combat Thread ?? and then we move the info over with a finial post ??

This message was last edited by the GM at 18:13, Tue 16 Oct 2018.

Narrator
 GM, 232 posts
 Caladin
 Live Free, Die Well
Tue 16 Oct 2018
at 19:12
Re: Chit Chat
Hey Esparam

I took you IC and add your notes on Roderick Gumpreli-Trallmar & Lyandel Jliyuanminlandoral.

You can use your creative juices and i will add the, to our NPC list of who's who.
If they are deceased let me know I will add those notes as well.

If not interested ion writing up this info i can do so and build on your notes.

Send link on how you think they should look :)
Catweazle
 Human, 16 posts
 Druid
Tue 16 Oct 2018
at 21:45
Re: Chit Chat
1) Doing it with individual inits and running a combat with them takes far, FAR too long. It's not just the players who need to post one at a time, it's the DM, which means in a group of 6 hobgoblins we will have to wait up to 6 times per round for the DM to log back into the game and post his actions for an individual monster. That's just not going to work. With six players and six interjections by the DM a round will take more than a week, and in fact can take up to 12 days without NPCing anyone 'to prevent it dragging on'. Way too long for combat.

2) Combat threads aren't useful. It's just another screen one has to toggle between to see what has gone on. If everyone, players and DMs alike post their rolls AND ACTIONS below their IC post in orange (stock standard on this site), then other players can determine for themselves what has transpired without having to rely on the prose above from each participant. Most people misrepresent their rolls and actions when they try to describe them, or don't include everything. Including rolls and actions in orange down below allows others to know exactly what has happened.

3) Tarrano's idea still breaks up inits into too many individual waiting periods. If you tack a 24-hour rule onto each of those brackets, each round will still take a week to get through. That's up to three months for one combat. Good luck with that.

I'm just offering my insights from long experience of seeing how not to do it. It's up to the DMs as to how they want to run combat. But if you don't make allowances for the pbp format, the game will get heavily bogged down in combat, and no amount of flowery repartee describing one's swordstroke will make up for having had to wait nearly two weeks since your last one :)
Tarrano Grazlak
 Hobgoblin, 76 posts
 Krangi
 Rogue
Tue 16 Oct 2018
at 22:30
Re: Chit Chat
In reply to Catweazle (msg # 134):

I'll agree with Cat on the combat thread, especially for those that use mobile having to swap between threads can get tedious.

Personally I have never had a combat take that long with the 24Hour rule plus the init example I posted. At most combat has taken like 3 days but yes these have been low level combats so higher level ones could take longer.


For as long as I've been gaming, DM's usually only have like 1-3 different iniative's to go on, Monster Group A, Leader 1, Leader 2, etc... So a group of hobgoblin's would all go at the same time for simplicity sake.
Narrator
 GM, 233 posts
 Caladin
 Live Free, Die Well
Tue 16 Oct 2018
at 23:02
Re: Chit Chat
Catweazle:
1) Doing it with individual inits and running a combat with them takes far, FAR too long. It's not just the players who need to post one at a time, it's the DM, which means in a group of 6 hobgoblins we will have to wait up to 6 times per round for the DM to log back into the game and post his actions for an individual monster. That's just not going to work. With six players and six interjections by the DM a round will take more than a week, and in fact can take up to 12 days without NPCing anyone 'to prevent it dragging on'. Way too long for combat.


With DM not an issue. First I log in daily and sometimes post 4+ times a day. Yes some days better then others. YES weekends will be slower then weekdays, but I can commit that if I am not traveling I will stay active on weekends for combat.
Narrator
 GM, 234 posts
 Caladin
 Live Free, Die Well
Tue 16 Oct 2018
at 23:09
Re: Chit Chat
I would like to make a sample test thread and actually have this group fight 12 goblins.

Lets play out one mock fight ?? if interested I will add you to a new group thread as #2

Lets take this baby for a test ride.
Tarrano Grazlak
 Hobgoblin, 77 posts
 Krangi
 Rogue
Tue 16 Oct 2018
at 23:14
Re: Chit Chat
In reply to Narrator (msg # 137):

Sure can test out a couple of options. See what the crowd likes
Narrator
 GM, 236 posts
 Caladin
 Live Free, Die Well
Tue 16 Oct 2018
at 23:19
Re: Chit Chat
If interest please post in IC: MOCK FIGHT
This is a test so no worries if you die, it does not count in any way other than to see how we will do combat for this game.
Tarrano Grazlak
 Hobgoblin, 79 posts
 Krangi
 Rogue
Tue 16 Oct 2018
at 23:39
Re: Chit Chat
Curious how many players do we have and how many NPCs do we have in our party?
Narrator
 GM, 238 posts
 Caladin
 Live Free, Die Well
Wed 17 Oct 2018
at 03:22
Re: Chit Chat
In reply to Tarrano Grazlak (msg # 140):

1 npc. 4 players
Esparam
 Human, 87 posts
 Bet Rogala nobility
 Wizard (diviner)
Wed 17 Oct 2018
at 08:28
Re: Chit Chat
In reply to Narrator (msg # 136):

Plus, if Gars helps as a co-GM, if only to say "this hits" or "monster fails the save", it should be fairly quick.

I don't think a combat thread is necessary either.



In reply to Tarrano Grazlak (msg # 140):

Eldon Trush is the only NPC, others are players.
So the party currently comprises 1 npc and 4 players as Caladin said, and will be 1+5 when Catweazle will have joined the group in IC (so far, in his corner of the tavern and hasn't interacted with the now loud group in the middle).
*hint at Thelonius's "we have still one last spot to fill" ;)

This message was last edited by the player at 08:29, Wed 17 Oct 2018.

Narrator
 GM, 254 posts
 Caladin
 Live Free, Die Well
Thu 18 Oct 2018
at 13:59
Re: Chit Chat
In reply to Catweazle, conversation moved from IC: Mock Fight
Please if anyone wants to continue this do so here in this thread.

TY


Thank you Esparam

Yes, actually you and I meet through Gars some *8 years ago online through Zeta Boards, I think it was called Nights of the Templar rpg group. I came to this site after playing with you guys and that adventure came to an end.

General Gars and I have played since way back when and on and off for about 25 years.

Since its come up - I will say I have been playing since 6th grade. (lol , I still remember hiding the books from my teacher and rolling die under my flip top desk)
GOD THOSE WERE JUST GREAT TIMES!
And I started D&D with the Black and Blue Book. That dates back before the red box set. Which by the way I still have the original red book that also pre-dates the red box.

Online I have been playing and DMing for about 12 years (I think, its a blur). Starting back after Never Winter Nights (again not sleeping much back then it a bigger blur). As far as free-form, Yes my Game of Thrones rpg is super heavy RPing with little rolling and fantastic writing by everyone. I managed 18 players on average on those games. By the way thank you for reading my material.

I actually had many games here. They went inactive and RPOL delete all trace of them :(

Deadlands D20
L5R (two games)
Star Blazers (anime)
And several other Kingdom of Kalamar games hosted here.
I did not delete them RPOL removed them for being inactive.

If your interested in knowing more, I have some stuff I have done over the years my screen names are

Caladin
Lord Caladin
kok.caladin
Lord Caladin's Court

If you google these I should come up. The avatar 'Caladin' comes up by others a few times but a lot of that stuff is my game creations over the years.

With regards to D&D I stopped at D&D 3.5e. I am not interested in playing 4th or 5th and since I have every book, pdf and countless modules for D&D to D&D 3.5e I don't feel the need to buy any more.

About our game and its direction, my style of play & DMing, ..... I have to say the Esparam hit it square on the chin. For me rules are for how to handle issues as they arise. And I'm not trying to be confrontational but these are RPGs 'Roleplaying' being the key word, And even the site is Rpol again 'Roleplaying'. Now, I thought I understood what you were looking for and yes you did say what you wanted. If we miss-understood each other it happens and no hard feeling on my part I will exit out the character and good luck with your gaming.

In fact I recommend username REZ - if I remember correctly from years ago he plays many games and they are straight D&D 3.5e from the rules books and maybe more inline with what you have noted in your last post.

For the record I am not throwing you out, just trying to get pass this. Before you reply just think about if so far you like what you see. If not let me know and I will RP you character out.
Thelonius Xander
 GM, 98 posts
 Noble of Baris
 Imperial Warrior
Thu 18 Oct 2018
at 17:05
Re: Chit Chat
Moved from IC: Mock to here (deleted now in IC Mock)

I have never had an issue with Cals style. It is unique but it also works well for me. Does that mean it works for everyone? No I suppose not.
Catweazle
 Human, 25 posts
 Druid
Thu 18 Oct 2018
at 21:22
Re: Chit Chat
Thanks, I'll be leaving, this game is specifically the type of game I was looking to avoid joining when I enquired about the style. Thanks for your time.

Please remove me from the game.

C
Narrator
 GM, 265 posts
 Caladin
 Live Free, Die Well
Thu 18 Oct 2018
at 21:55
Re: Chit Chat
Catweazle:
Thanks, I'll be leaving, this game is specifically the type of game I was looking to avoid joining when I enquired about the style. Thanks for your time.

Please remove me from the game.

C


I will work on cleaning up the threads, I will post one last post for Catweazle and have him exit. I have also posted to request for new players, but this should not stop the current IC. Please keep this moving. We can intro new players on the ship, or at the next city. There is always a way to intro a new PC.

I would like to wish Catweazle luck in hopes he finds the game he is looking for.
Narrator
 GM, 266 posts
 Caladin
 Live Free, Die Well
Thu 18 Oct 2018
at 22:36
Re: Chit Chat
Last note before I take a rest.

We have 3 marked in group Z - I think I will remove them, I was holding them in case they returned but I no-longer think that will happen.
Tarrano Grazlak
 Hobgoblin, 87 posts
 Krangi
 Rogue
Thu 18 Oct 2018
at 22:48
Re: Chit Chat
In reply to Catweazle (msg # 145):

Good luck in what ever games you find next Cat. Sorry that you feel this game is not to your liking. I am rather enjoying it so far.
Narrator
 GM, 278 posts
 Caladin
 Live Free, Die Well
Mon 22 Oct 2018
at 21:17
Re: Chit Chat
So let go over what we agree on for IC COMBAT so far.

1. OOC will be posted in IC as "Soiler" text.
2. DM will post initiative and rounds with the order and notes at the start of every round.
Also DM will post as needed and when special actions are taken. If it can effect the initiative order it get noted and posted.
3. Players will have info needed so they can roll and post freely as combat progresses.
DCs, HPs, weapon and adjustments. etc etc


I know there is more please correct, and or add to what you feel is needed so it can play right and work as you and I except. Lets keep working on this so when done we can post and make our combat format official.