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Rules Discussions.

Posted by Chiisai ToriFor group 0
Chiisai Tori
GM, 101 posts
Mon 12 Nov 2018
at 13:55
  • msg #6

OOC Rules Discussions

While real-world, I see points against many things in many rule systems, I'm going to try to keep the rules as written unless we feel they are breaking the game.

Thus, for now, any attack that doesn't say AC is excluded doesn't exclude AC.  Even if it doesn't make common sense.  It might just be for game balance to keep all things relatively equal.

When Tony ran the game, he gave Defense a BASE based on your deftness that did what the rules currently use AC for -subtract from the opponents attack.  He then used AC as damage reduction instead of subtraction from BCS.  While this has advantages, especially thinking about how the real world operates, it's also adding a rule that I'm not certain fixes anything broken.
Chiisai Tori
GM, 102 posts
Mon 12 Nov 2018
at 13:56
  • msg #7

OOC Rules Discussions

I think I'm caught up now.  Please reply with thoughts, rules I might have missed, or opinions :D.
Takeshi Oshiro
player, 21 posts
Mon 12 Nov 2018
at 15:16
  • msg #8

OOC Rules Discussions

Ron,
What do distractions do?
If I have 3 distractions on me am I at -3 on all rolls?
Chiisai Tori
GM, 103 posts
Mon 12 Nov 2018
at 18:33
  • msg #9

OOC Rules Discussions

Yes.  They subtract from BCS rolls.

In general, they subtract from all BCS rolls.  You are distracted and cannot focus at the task at hand. At least not without great willpower to ignore them.
Totsu
player, 49 posts
Tue 13 Nov 2018
at 00:46
  • msg #10

OOC Rules Discussions

In reply to Chiisai Tori (msg # 3):
Hi Ron,
As far as jujitsu I was kinda under the impression that jujitsu was more of a fighting type/style and having it meant that you were proficient in all of the different attacks (trip throw and grapple). Based off this it seemed to me that it was indicating that throw and Atemi Waza were higher forms of attacks than grappling.   This was how it came across to me but it was not clear.
All I would request is that you go back and read it again to see if you think this is what they were intending.

If you go back and you think that they were intending that a jujitsu grapple is totally different than a normal grapple then I can see how you would rule it the way you did.
Thanks
Totsu
player, 50 posts
Tue 13 Nov 2018
at 01:01
  • msg #11

OOC Rules Discussions

In reply to Chiisai Tori (msg # 4):

Ok so my attack modifiers for bonus skill and two fisted fighting comes before the 50% modifications. Should we call these attack modifiers?  Just looking for a way to easily identify what modifiers take place before and after the 50% modifiers. So we would say opponents defensive modifiers do after the 50% attack modifier.
Just trying to quantity the types of modifiers to make it easier once other modifiers come into play. For instance there is a jujitsu parry where if I succeed will give me bonuses to attack. I was wondering if they would come in before the 50% or after and qualify them as some other modifier in name.
Alternatively if someone is performing a normal parry does this bonus always apply at the same time as his defensive bonus?

Just trying to be able to break them all down so I could figure out what my chance for success would be with different options so I can decide which would be the best based on any given scenario
Totsu
player, 51 posts
Tue 13 Nov 2018
at 01:26
  • msg #12

OOC Rules Discussions

In reply to Chiisai Tori (msg # 5):

Just trying to get more clarification here. If I fail the willpower roll I’m tripped and on the ground and have to make a health saving throw or automatically lose my next action.   Sorry I reread the trip and it indicates that falling to the ground is what causes you to lose your next action and not the distractions
1.  If I failed my speed ST roll but succeeded in a jujitsu roll to not fall down would these be treated as the same as making my speed ST roll?

2.  If I fail my willpower roll but succeeded in speed ST (like I did in the mock combat) then on my next action in 11 I can still do anything I can normally do in my primary ap but whatever I attempt will be at -9(Hiro’s affect number for distractions )?
Where would the -9 come in if I attacked twice with Atemi Waza?
Where would the -9 come in if a performed a parry with Atemi Waza? I purposely picked parry because it says you make a roll against your raw bcs. What if I did a jujitsu parry? 
Also how long does this -9 apply?

One more thing. In the mock combat the way I used jujitsu to lessen Hiro affect on Totsu was correct?
This message was last edited by the player at 04:37, Tue 13 Nov 2018.
Chiisai Tori
GM, 107 posts
Tue 13 Nov 2018
at 18:42
  • msg #13

OOC Rules Discussions

I think the rules as written might be overly complicated.  Let me pitch a change from what I said earlier to make it simple:
First, your Base BCS is merely your Score/5(+level if it’s a bonus skill).  This is the number that should be on your character sheet under BCS.
Second, you take any % adjustments.  It is clear that they say % adjustments come off the Base BCS, not the adjusted.  So I think this is correct.
Third, you subtract AC.
Fourth, you apply ALL integer modifiers.  That means Facing, distractions, the -1 if you’re second striking, restrictions, anything that gives a +/- in number form rather than % form.  That includes the quality of the weapon.

The result is your adjusted BCS.  That’s what you roll against.

This means that Armor is important against someone who’s at a % reduction.  This makes sense to me.  If you’re half as skilled, that doesn’t mean their armor is half as useful.

It also means that situational mods can make or break your combat.

For those of you who are honor driven, keep in mind that giving up even honorable advantages can increase your ON.  You are, essentially, thumbing your nose at your enemy and saying I don’t need and advantages to take you down.  And while most situational advantages are acceptable without LOSING ON, some are not.  Unfortunately, these are case by case since situational.  For example, attacking someone from surprise and behind is likely to cost you ON.  Attacking someone on the battlefield with 100’s of people flailing about likely will not cost you on if you hit someone in the back – unless they are what is considered a ‘Notable’ person.

=-=-=-=-=

For Jujutsu, I’m gonna stick with the rules as they’re written.  The bugei of Jujutsu (whether grapple, throw, or trip) is equal to Atemi and superior to brawl and sumai for grappling counters.

=-=-=-=-=

For your Trip questions:
1)    If you failed your speed ST, and succeeded in jujutsu to not fall, it’s treated as failing your speed roll but not actually falling.  I don’t want to call it the same as making your speed roll, because effort was required because the speed roll was failed.  It still takes no time, but it is a separate move to save you from falling.
2)    Based on what I wrote above, the last think you’d do is apply the -9, along with all the other integer modifiers if you attacked with a bugei.  If you parried, the same exact thing, your parry roll with apply the -9 after all other mods.  Since Jujutsu parry doesn’t require a roll immediately, you’d apply the -9 to that if you were attacked and allowed to roll the bugei to parry.
3)    I believe lessening the effect of jujutsu was correctly used.  Anytime you are attacked with that skill, you can reduce the effect numbers for free.  Or…increase the effect numbers for free :D.  So yes, the AC would be applied and such.
Totsu
player, 54 posts
Wed 14 Nov 2018
at 01:12
  • msg #14

OOC Rules Discussions

In reply to Chiisai Tori (msg # 13):

Thanks for the info.
I still have a couple questions I would like to get clarification on.
If someone makes a successful trip attack on me and I make a saving throw to avoid tripping exactly how long do the distractions occur?
If the trip attack occurred on 15 and I go in my primary action in 11 and decide to jujitsu parry. Say someone attacks me in 10 and misses and I counterattack in 10 it sounds like I would perform this action using the distraction modifiers. Say in action phase 9 a different person attacks me am I still at negative modifiers if that attack misses and I try to counterattack?

The second question is about bcs.
I see references to making rolls for raw bcs, base bcs and adjusted bcs.
It seems like raw bcs is just your skill/5. Is this correct?
Sounds like base bcs is your skill/5 then add your bonus/level modifier.  Is this correct?
Adjusted bcs seems to be the bcs after all modifiers are taken into account.  Is this correct?
Chiisai Tori
GM, 109 posts
Wed 14 Nov 2018
at 01:40
  • msg #15

Re: OOC Rules Discussions

Totsu:
It seems like raw bcs is just your skill/5. Is this correct?
Sounds like base bcs is your skill/5 then add your bonus/level modifier.  Is this correct?
Adjusted bcs seems to be the bcs after all modifiers are taken into account.  Is this correct?


I believe yes,yes,and yes.
Chiisai Tori
GM, 110 posts
Wed 14 Nov 2018
at 01:43
  • msg #16

Re: OOC Rules Discussions

Totsu:
If someone makes a successful trip attack on me and I make a saving throw to avoid tripping exactly how long do the distractions occur?
If the trip attack occurred on 15 and I go in my primary action in 11 and decide to jujitsu parry. Say someone attacks me in 10 and misses and I counterattack in 10 it sounds like I would perform this action using the distraction modifiers. Say in action phase 9 a different person attacks me am I still at negative modifiers if that attack misses and I try to counterattack?


For trip, I’m ruling the distractions are until you can get your balance.  That means YOUR next ap.  So if you are tripped in 15, and go in 11, the distractions are gone iat the start of ap 10.  For trip, I’ll say it doesn’t matter if he ap is base, primary, or secondary.
Totsu
player, 58 posts
Fri 16 Nov 2018
at 01:33
  • msg #17

Re: OOC Rules Discussions

In reply to Chiisai Tori (msg # 16):

I was reading entangled effect and it appears to be similar to the trip but instead of distractions it gives the target restrictions.  If a target is entangled and for example has an effect of 5 against him would this be treated the same as someone who had 5 distractions against them?
Chiisai Tori
GM, 113 posts
Fri 16 Nov 2018
at 12:07
  • msg #18

Re: OOC Rules Discussions

A restriction acts as a distraction but with one important difference, you cannot ignore them.  There is no Will save to reduce the number of distractions.   So, once the restrictions are on you, you have them until the chain is escaped from.
Totsu
player, 59 posts
Fri 16 Nov 2018
at 23:07
  • msg #19

Re: OOC Rules Discussions

In reply to Chiisai Tori (msg # 18):

Ok that part makes perfect sense.
Unfortunately there are a lot of things that are not specifically called out for what you can or cannot do while you are entangled and what are the penalties to any of these actions.
It specifically says you can break free with a strength ST on your primary action.
It specifically states that you are at 50% of your bcs to attack the rope/chain, and it even states the amount of damage to cut the chain.
It does not say if you can perform any other actions. I assume you can but would they be the same as a grapple hold or something else.
The effect numbers for entangled work somewhat different than grapple hold. If your entangled effect reaches 10 then you are totally subdued but you are not free from entanglement unless the effect number goes all the way to -10.

Basically can you read the entanglement attack type and expand upon the details of exactly what the person can do while they are entangled and explain in detail about how all the modifiers are applied under different scenarios.

One example might be if the original attack succeeds and the target is at 5 restrictions he can do the following with the following modifiers. Then the next round when the attacker tries to improve the entanglement he rolls bad and the effect number goes to a +5 the entangled character can now do the following and the modifiers will apply as stated...
I’m assuming there is no such thing as receiving positive restriction bonuses.
Just trying to get a clear understanding of how it works so I will know what to expect when I try to use it.
Thanks
Arashi Fukushu
player, 202 posts
Thu 14 Nov 2019
at 11:45
  • msg #20

Re: OOC Rules Discussions

In reply to Totsu (msg # 19):

Ron, Does Arashi still have the gold that Jizai gave to Arashi?
Chiisai Tori
GM, 413 posts
Fri 15 Nov 2019
at 14:48
  • msg #21

Re: OOC Rules Discussions

In reply to Arashi Fukushu (msg # 20):

Yes
Totsu
player, 475 posts
Sun 5 Apr 2020
at 00:37
  • msg #22

Re: OOC Rules Discussions

In reply to Chiisai Tori (msg # 21):

MOVED RULES CONVERSATION FROM PUDDLE JUMPING THREAD TO HERE:

Totsu
While yelling I would attempt to draw my yawara (I think I'm allowed to do this if I make a deftness ST) then use jujutsu to perform a take down throw to the ground at my feet and hopefully knocking him unconscious.  Just to make sure the attack is on Target E2.  I also assume you know that I would have moved into contact with him range to perform the grapple attack

Deftness ST.  BCS 11 rolled a 9.
Jujutsu (newly improved after my week of training is calculated)  BCS 15?+3= 18  Rolled a 8 for an effect of 11 (-enemies armor, I don't think yawara can be added to throw so I did not add that +2)  Did E2 charge me?  If so add +2 to success and effect number.
So then I roll d10 to roll under the effect to make the throw successful where BCS is 11 (-enemy bonuses?).  I rolled a 1 which is a critical if that matters otherwise I assume the target is supine (I'm guessing this would be passive bonuses for someone shooting at him) on the ground and needs to make a health saving throw to avoid suffering a stun critical (possibly unconsciouness because mine was critical?).


DM
You cannot draw a Yawara unless that is your action.  The save is needed when engaged even if that’s the only thing you’re doing.  Since you didn’t take the bonus, no harm/no foul.

However, the spirit has you at Medium range with his katana.  Your options are: Close to throw using a SPD save, attempt to throw from your current range (which is -2 BCS), or use your Budoka KI to throw from a distance.

Since the rolls are already made, I will use the most advantageous outcome.  You Throw and take the -2 BCS.

On this plane, you average your BCS with your WILL save to get your BCS.  (13+5)/2= 9 starting BCS.  +3 three for Yashashi’s blessing.  +2 from enemy charge.  -5 for his armor.  So your BCS target is 9+3+2-5=9.

Since he does have JuJutsu, he can attempt to soften the effect of your success.  He fails his roll by 1.  He actually adds to your success.  Your BCS 9, with your roll of 8, is 2 effect.  With his -1 roll, you have 3 effect.

You roll your 1d10 (this is not an attack, is not a 1d20, so is not possible to critical).  Your 1 makes the throw successful.  You take him down to your feet.

He made his health roll so is not stunned.

This makes him on the ground, not passive.  Archery gets no bonuses for his prone position.


Totsu
I still have a couple questions. It says if the throw fails the target still loses his next action phase. Since the throw was successful how many action phases does the target lose?
Second question. At medium range you said a jujutsu attack is at -2. I thought jujutsu was a short range attack. I thought there was no attack closer than short range. I thought the contact modifiers were just modifiers if you happen to be in the middle of being grappling?
Since I performed the takedown throw successfully it says the opponent is now at my feet.  So is he now at short range (or contact range if this is such a thing)?

Also could you get into how the movement’s works after you are engaged?  I thought you were allowed to always move 1 yard in any direction after engaged?
If I attempt to move closer and fail do I still get to attack?
How does the speed ST work while engaged?  Do both opponents roll and the best effect wins or does the attacker just need a success?  If both roll what happens with a tie?

I also have questions on exactly how charge works.  Under Charge it says that it is resolved on action phase 2 after all other actions are resolved.  So I'm confused since you said the guy did charge me and attacked me in AP 10.
This message was last edited by the player at 01:46, Sun 05 Apr 2020.
Totsu
player, 476 posts
Sun 5 Apr 2020
at 00:55
  • msg #23

Re: OOC Rules Discussions

In reply to Totsu (msg # 22):

Created Separate response for topic on calculating training part of discussion.

As far as my Jujutsu BCS.  I had a week of training before the adventure that I still have not heard back from you on how much my skill went up.  You said I had private training and all the bonuses except for use of a scroll.  I think this would move my jujutsu from a 50 to a 60.9 thus my bcs would be a 15 (at 3rd level).  So my effect number would be 2 points higher and that training went towards putting my health up so I think I would also add 1.09 to my hit points.  I've been waiting to hear from you on this before updating my character.  Could you confirm if my calculations are correct and I will update my character.

Learning rate 1
+1 teacher is superior level
+1 teacher is 6th level (Master)
+1 teacher has mastered the skill (99)
+1 studying at school
+1 studying bonus skill for Budoka
+0 Scroll
+4.9 Private instruction [((99-50)/10) = 4.9)
    No Hinderances
10.9 total added to Jujutsu thus 50+10.9 = 60.9 which is a bsc of 12 then + 3 for 3rd level gives me a BCS of 15 for Jujutsu at 3rd level.

Skill points put towards improving Health.  Thus 10.9/10 = 1.09 added to health which also increases hit points by the same amount.

I was waiting for confirmation from you to verify this before updating my character.  Just give me the ok and I can do it.
Chiisai Tori
GM, 468 posts
Tue 7 Apr 2020
at 13:49
  • msg #24

Re: OOC Rules Discussions

=6*3=18
1 for teacher
7.9 for teacher
2 academy

That sounds fine Totsu.
Please also pay for the training.  That week of learning would cost:
1sp for teacher, 7.9sp for teachers bonuses given, 18 sp for private instruction due to teacher not teaching others, and 2sp for being in an academy.

Total cost for the week: 28.9sp.
Totsu
player, 479 posts
Tue 7 Apr 2020
at 18:27
  • [deleted]
  • msg #25

Re: OOC Rules Discussions

This message was deleted by the player at 18:27, Tue 07 Apr 2020.
Totsu
player, 480 posts
Tue 7 Apr 2020
at 18:28
  • msg #26

Re: OOC Rules Discussions

In reply to Chiisai Tori (msg # 24):
Chiisai Tori
GM, 469 posts
Tue 7 Apr 2020
at 21:09
  • msg #27

Re: OOC Rules Discussions

Totsu:
I still have a couple questions. It says if the throw fails the target still loses his next action phase. Since the throw was successful how many action phases does the target lose?
Second question. At medium range you said a jujutsu attack is at -2. I thought jujutsu was a short range attack. I thought there was no attack closer than short range. I thought the contact modifiers were just modifiers if you happen to be in the middle of being grappling?
Since I performed the takedown throw successfully it says the opponent is now at my feet.  So is he now at short range (or contact range if this is such a thing)?

Also could you get into how the movement’s works after you are engaged?  I thought you were allowed to always move 1 yard in any direction after engaged?
If I attempt to move closer and fail do I still get to attack?
How does the speed ST work while engaged?  Do both opponents roll and the best effect wins or does the attacker just need a success?  If both roll what happens with a tie?

I also have questions on exactly how charge works.  Under Charge it says that it is resolved on action phase 2 after all other actions are resolved.  So I'm confused since you said the guy did charge me and attacked me in AP 10.

Your throw was successful, he loses no action phases.

Contact is, by definition, required to throw someone unless using the Budoka KI power.  You performed a take-down, are no longer touching the opponent, so it is short range.

Movement depends on which type of action you are doing.  Some actions allow a 1 yard move, some do not.

The SP saves are covered in the rules thread, but essentially, if you are attempting to get closer than someone is threatening you, and they wish to deny you, both make SP saves.  Best effect gets their way.

He did not use a Charge action, he used a Close to Engage action.

I'd like to add that the rules, and my DM style, can also be adjust for situation.  It's usually easier to just take your action and find out what happens.  More role-playing that way too - the chance of heroics!  I promise I won't intentionally screw anyone  :D.
Chiisai Tori
GM, 470 posts
Wed 8 Apr 2020
at 23:11
  • msg #28

Re: OOC Rules Discussions

It doesn't make a difference to your actions Totsu, but you can Either draw your yawara, OR attack.  Not both.

Also, fists are a short range weapon and legs are a long range weapon, so Contact range does not help you.
Totsu
player, 483 posts
Thu 9 Apr 2020
at 02:48
  • msg #29

Re: OOC Rules Discussions

In reply to Chiisai Tori (msg # 28):

Then I just attack. Punch him. That means I rolled a one on a 20 sider. That 1 would have been been a critical on my second attack.   Just shift my rolls for me. :).
I knew I couldn’t draw the bow and shoot but for some reason I thought I’d done it before with the yawara.  It’s hard to remember these rules when we go months between each combat.  I think it would be easier to remember if we just had combat all the time along with a separate thread just for the rest. :)

I don’t want the combat to end I have all kinds of scenarios I want to know what happens.
What happens if Hiro is grappling with his guy and I join in with my own grappling?  Do our efforts stack or are they separate.  Does the one guy get two rolls to break free each action if we both have him grappled?  Could a grapple with the purpose to help Hiro’s effect numbers?

What happens if Hiro has him grappled and I use my chain to entangle the guy?  Would my success put him at negatives to his fight with Hiro or would they be totally independent?
This message was last edited by the player at 03:08, Thu 09 Apr 2020.
GM KEN
GM, 7 posts
Fri 9 Apr 2021
at 11:57
  • msg #30

Re: OOC Rules Discussions

This thread is for all rules discussions, including Character development
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