Hey there folks!

Technically I'm playing two characters - the first of which is Jacob, who is one of those cheesy tv ghost hunter characters.  The kind who shoot a lot of night vision scenes in old houses, trying to make a "scary" episode for his (somewhat lame) show

The other is Vic "Two Guns" Vincenzo, the actual ghost of a 1920's mafia hitman who has possessed Jacob during the breakout.  Vic's on a quest for redemption and will have a suite of ghost themed powers.

Anyhow glad to meet everyone!
This message was last edited by the player at 14:49, Sun 06 Dec 2020.

Question to the group.

Vic and Jacob don't like each other too much.  Because of this, I feel like there should be some sort of limitation on how and when Vic can take over Jacob's body.  Otherwise, why wouldn't Vic just stay in control all the time?

Should it be like only at night?  Or only for a limited amount of time?  Some other sort of limitation?

When Vic is driving, Jacob might not have memories of that time, so he fights for control of his own body? He only knows that he’s possessed by the spirit of a killer, so he’s probably not keen to let Vic traipse around.

I think what sort of drawback you take will depend on the dynamic you want for them. Like if Vic muscles in and takes the wheels when he thinks Jacob isn’t doing a good enough job at whatever Jacob’s up to. I don’t want to impose my views of what would be most interesting on you or your characters!

So like a spontaneous takeover where my character loses his powers?  That is an interesting idea.

Vic used to be a murderer, sure, but the afterlife hasn't been much fun for the guy, (you know - the whole remorseless hitman thing), so he is trying to do good deeds in order to make amends.  Problem is that he kinda sucks at it - being a vigilante doesn't come naturally to the guy.

Jacob on the other hand, just wants to go back to making crappy ghost hunter shows for cable/YouTube.

That's kinday idea at the moment.

Sort of the opposite. Spontaneous takeover where his powers turn on. Vic has the ghost powers, but his morality is questionable even if his intentions are good. Hell might’ve been Hell, but he also might not know how to do better. Meanwhile, Jacob wakes up and learns he’s been seen doing heroics, and he has no idea what people are on about. When he finally tapes himself, he reviews his blackout footage and sees himself going Danny Phantom, so he can start putting two and two together.

Mechanically, you have access to whatever powers whenever, because Vic can assert himself. But perhaps Jacob starts trying to fight back? That would be the unreliable power and things of that nature. Just spitballing.

Edit: sorry, yea, spontaneous takeover of Vic by Jacob. You were right, I just didn’t comprehend properly.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:12, Sun 06 Dec 2020.

Emily, there is no registration of paranormals yet. When the story begins, your characters will have had their breakouts, and there will be other unconfirmed reports of breakouts around the country and the world, but there will not have been a big, public Breakout to let the whole world know about the existence of paranormals, though that will be coming. So we are in the very beginning of the Paragons setting.

Re: msg #7&8

How popular/famous was this ghost hunter show?

You could do something like a moderate weakness to using your own powers that drains charisma. That'd be very common +2, Moderate +1, Slowed to once per hour would be -1 for a 2 value drawback once per 5 hours would be a 1 value drawback.

Like taking over the mind of the living burns you both out slowly on a subconscious emotional level.

Re: msg #12.
Okay simple enough so, that only changes Emily from being too nervous to follow the registration law to talk to anyone in the government to too nervous to talk to anyone in the government because this is weird and she doesn't want to get neuralyzed by Will Smith or in universe equivalent.

Are we doing the wealth optional rules?

Oh snap, I totally forgot about the wealth benefit. I should probably snag a bit of that.

Edit: Double oh snap, if we're using the optional rule then we start with a base wealth stat, so never mind!  Middle class Bex remains safe.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:03, Sun 06 Dec 2020.

So are you sure about attractive 3?

So by mutants and masterminds convention your average model has doesn't gain the attractive feat, as this is sort of the baseline of how superheroes look.

Super models and equally attractive people get the feat 1 time in canon characters. Super human super models and goddesses often get the feat 2 times. So having the feat 3 times is incredibly remarkable.

If you had charisma 12 (+1) you'd be at the power level limit for diplomacy and bluff (+13) That'd mean given favorable circumstance essentially based on your appearance alone someone who wanted you dead, spends 6 seconds talking to you decides you're alright, people who dislike you decide they actually like you, and everyone else decides they'll go out of their way to help you. That's just what routine use of diplomacy as a full round action does at that point.

My point is attractive 3 isn't pretty, it's so earth-shatteringly hypnotically beautiful everyone around you who swings that way should be deeply effected by the sight of you.

At least according to Hero Lab--which I will absolutely admit I'm leaning on, because I've got roughly 2 weeks of actual experience with this system--the power level for skills at this is PLx2 for a maximum of 16.

I was just clicking buttons to make the numbers go up the way that made sense.  I figured Becca doesn't have any remarkable talent at convincing people--she has a few skill ranks, but nothing you wouldn't expect in a teen.  (I ended up using escape artist as my best stand in for yoga, because I have no idea when I'll use escape artist but I wanted to replicate her experience with it!  Escape artist is her highest skill, followed by disguise--which I figured represented the best version of 'she does a lot of makeup and costume design for her social media stuff'.)  But if they're attracted to her, then they're more likely to do what she's asking.

Maybe folks don't find her appealing, so that's totally fine!  But that was sort of the mentality I had going into the build.  And given the power outline I gave to the GM, Becca having a supernatural level of attractiveness makes sense, so I feel pretty confident in that option.

In reply to Becca Gershwin (msg # 16):


I thought the skills limit was PL +5 for 2e. Am I missing something?

I'm asking to makes sure that doesn't change things for me in my build.

Also, if this affects anyone else (which I doubt), my character's theme is based on space manipulation. Primarily that comes in the form of teleportation :)

Nope, you and Emily are correct, it's PL+5.  I'm trying to figure out why HL isn't throwing a validation error.  Additional testing seems to show HL doesn't factor attribute into the cap, so I'm checking errata to see if the program is wrong.  It'll free up some PP though, that's for sure!

Edit: Thanks for catching that!  I edited my sheet accordingly.

Edit2: Apropos the description of spacy, that's more that Becca daydreams a lot, not that she has anything to do with space.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:47, Sun 06 Dec 2020.

So checked on the level limits to answer the question.
Max Rank is PL+5
Max bonus from ability score is also PL+5

So just you'd be limited to 1 rank in bluff/diplomacy but you could have a high charisma bonus as well.

My main concern is people often put down crazy high attractive and then everyone reacts like it's no big deal. I consider "selling" (pro-wrestling jargon) other people's powers part of the roleplaying social contract, but I hate being the only one "selling" something because that makes my character look like an idiot which isn't fair to me.

Assuming your charisma is at least 16 (+3) those things I said would be true even untrained.

Compare to the equivalent bonus from the charisma scale
Attractive 1 - 18 highly gifted ie only a few in the US like a supermodel.
Attractive 2 - 26 Low Superhuman ie beauty slightly beyond what is humanly possible like a superhuman super model
Attractive 3 - 34 High Superhuman ie beauty of god of beauty or a powerful superhero who's power is beauty.
Attractive 4 - 42 Very High Superhuman ie rare beauty even among gods of beauty.
Attractive 5 - 50 Cosmic ie the cosmic entity embodying the concept of beauty.

I am fine with even the charisma 36 (+13) attractive 3 (+12) with a rank in diplomacy character. It's a perfectly fine shtick but to looking up the routine behavior for that shtick at that point is someone who wants you dead, talks to you for 6 seconds and decides to help you instead, and everyone else will take risks to help you after short interactions. And you've got a 35% chance someone who started out your friend will become an obsessive fanatic willing to die for you. If someone like that walks into the room and gets no reaction that's a "no-sell" type situation which I dislike.

Oooohhhh, very cool!  Thank you for that breakdown, that's super helpful for understanding the system.  And yes, Charisma 16 seemed like a good spot for her, so that's where I had her originally (and just put her back to).  I figured people might want to react or might want to actively not react to her mechanics, so that's why I even mentioned it in the biography in the first place.  Just seemed like the sort of thing that might come up.  And the complication I took is related (the fame complication, especially given this is the start of the Paragons breakout phenomenon) so the downside to being visible is represented to some degree!

(As a general apology to everybody, I am super new to the system.  I've made characters before, but the games I've been in never got past the 'and now everybody meets one another' phase, so if I'm doing something wrong, do not hesitate to let me know.  It's out of a place of ignorance, not malice. ♥)
This message was last edited by the player at 20:12, Sun 06 Dec 2020.

Ya know, after I asked my question and thought about it, I realize I already had my answer.  It's emergency medicine, for reasons covered in her backstory.  Still, thanks for the suggestions.

---

re: attractive

While I'm largely onboard with what Emily is saying, at least with Attractive 3 being fairly extreme, I do have some concerns, such as the GM having the final say and all. ;)  Or whether Attractive = Charisma, and if comparing it to skills would be a better analysis.  But my larger concerns mostly breakdown into how tightly we stick to these benchmarks, and what exactly our baseline and measures of reality are.  I mean, should we be limited to 6 ranks of skills, since we were all PL 1 civilians until recently?  Should I have 0 ranks of Attack and Defense since I don't get into fights?  Or are we going with a more cinematic version of things, and I've got some ranks in each so that I can easily fight thugs like a proper protagonist?

I suppose I'm asking the GM if he could elaborate a bit better on expectations for the game, in tone, style, and power level.  Are we leaning more towards NBC's Heroes, where it's just talking to save SFX budget and 'real people with powers'?  Or are we going more Fantastic Four, where they manage an origin story and stopping Mole Man from attacking nuclear plants around the world in one issue, and are only 47 issues away from Galactus?

Also, are we expected to spend all our points on something right away?  Or should we just spend what makes sense for our newly empowered characters?

re: Jacob & Vic

So, mechanically, what you are describing is a Normal Identity Drawback with an Involuntary Transformation Drawback.  This is described in the core rule book, p126-27.  You make 2 characters - Jacob, and Vic possessing Jacob.  You need to define how the possession works - is it whenever you can find Jacob with his guard down, or are there further conditions?  And then you define the circumstances in which Jacob can kick Vic out of his body.

Beyond that, it's whatever you think makes a good story and that the GM signs off on.

I appreciate all the game mechanic chat. It's been a few years (4ish?) since I last played M&M2e. The game was a blast before it died.

Question about PL; is it true that the PL restriction doesn't apply to the ranking of feats?

As long as any Rank wouldn't cause any restricted attributes (Atk bonus, skills, etc.) to exceed the PL+5, it makes sense to me that the rule wouldn't apply to feats.

There isn't a general case that I'm aware of but every feat except inspire and master plan, are explicitly limited by power level limit.

Inspire and master plan explicitly can exceed the power level limit.

"This bonus cannot increase your total effective skill rank higher than the campaign's power level limit." (Attractive) for example is very explicit that power level limit does apply.

Are there instances of ranked feats which don't impact a restricted attribute?  Like, ostensibly you could take 120 benefit (wealth)s if you wanted to, right?

In reply to Emily Lorraine (msg # 24):

Thanks for the reply Emily, I appreciate your insight.

I don't see where it explicitly says anywhere that ranked feats are restricted to PL.

In the case of Inspire and Master Plan, it does explicitly state that the bonuses they offer (applying to the previously mentioned skills and powers) are allowed to override the PL limit, but still it doesn't say anything about their rank or the rank of any other feat. I didn't see anything in the errata either.

I could see it going both ways, as a hero with no powers would need to compensate with feats, and while feats are useful they can only hold up so much against most powers.

Did I miss something in the book where any of the restriction is worded at all to apply to feats?

@Becca That's another great example of what I'm talking about.

Just going through Hero Lab--attack focuses are stopped by PL level, attractive is stopped by PL level, defensive roll is stopped by PL level, dodge focus, endurance--environmental adaptation doesn't appear to be, so you could take as many instances of it as you wanted, I think.  Evasion is limited to 2 ranks, favored environment and opponent are capless, improved block doesn't appear to be limited, improved critical isn't, improved initiative isn't...

So there are some which plainly are, and some which don't appear to be, and some which probably aren't.  That's as best as I can surmise poking around the program.

So power limit doesn't typically apply to things it doesn't explicitly apply to. For instance a PL 1 sidekick robot can have fortitude immunity which is a rank 30 power because it has neither an attack nor a save.

In reply to Jessica Kowalski (msg # 22):

Oh certainly, I know how to make it work, as far as numbers.  What I am trying to think of is the exact circumstances that his transformation occurs.

So more like the narrative explanation.  I'm cool with the numbers

I don't think he show was very famous.  I mean, even at the height of their popularity, could you even pick one of those guys out of a crowd?  This might be just me, but without using Google, I can't remember even one host from that style of show.

I do like the charisma draining.  Like after a certain amount of time, Jacob/Vic just looks completely wrecked, and maybe all punchy and irritable.  Something like that.

• Dodge focus is power level limited.
• Endurance might be but there's basically no reason to do so given its strictly worse than 10ranks of immunity.
• Environmental adaption doesn't give a numerical bonus or stack and is eventually just a waste of points.
• Evasion isn't a numerical bonus so it isn't ranked that way.
• Favored enemy and environment are both capped at +5 and capped by power level limit though you could always add another type of enemy or environment but that gets inefficient fast.
• Improved block is unclear. If it is allowed it's a strange way to be vulnerable to ranged attacks.
• Improved criticals isn't changing a value PLL applies to and the +5 effect can exceed PLL if you choose that critical.
• Improved Initiative there's no PLL on initiatives but going first when not surprised will only get you so far.

This message was last edited by the player at 14:38, Mon 07 Dec 2020.