Neutral Ground.   Posted by Precentor Kitty.Group: 0
Precentor Kitty
 GM, 94 posts
Tue 17 Dec 2019
at 20:13
Re: Neutral Ground
I dunno, i was just thinking about it, a mech like a Rifleman, might have that radar dish on top for seeing stuff, but cause it's guns are direct fire it cant fire through a level 2 buliding effectively.

So... if you had a mech, who has a targeting system use to trajectory combat from LRM weapon systems, being able to 'see' over a level two hill, should make it easier to fire at targets behind them?


ie.  A Urbanmech is foot slogging across the terrain and using two light trees as cover.  Mechs on the other side of the tree line can obviously see him.

Now... the Rifleman shoots at him, and has to fire through trees to hit the urbanmech.  Obviously each and every tree in the way is going to provide cover and be a problem for lasers and auto canons to fire through.

Now... the Crusader standing there, is taking the same shot.  He's using LRM fire.  Why on earth would he fire THROUGH the woods, when he can indirect fire them 'over' the wood?

The crusaders SEES you... Is there any reason he can't be a spotter for himself, and just fire over the woods to hit you directly?  The woods provide visual cover, but the missiles aren't going to have plow through two levels of light trees to hit the urban mech the way the rifleman has to.

So... for normal battletech, i was thinking, that a mech using LRM's could declare indirect fire for 'itself' acting as both fire support and spotter.  The penalty '1' spotting penalty can be the difficulty of spotting the target through soft cover to line up the indirect fire.

As noted, this doesnt come into effect if the target is NEXT to the terrain, because then the missiles are arcing 'down' by then and the tree and terrain at that point will be in the way of hitting them, in a manner similar to the rifleman's issues for firing through the trees.

I think this concept makes a lot of sense... is functionally more USEFUL for LRM mechs, is not a 'breaking' concept for play.... ie... LRM's were always a 'meh' weapon that was oversized for what they did.

ie... a LRM 15 and a PPC are both the same weight.  The LRM enjoys a slightly better range and requires less heat sinks but... suffers at short range, lesser damage (average of 8 to 10), dispersed damage (two locations as opposed to one), and  the issue of requiring ammo... ammo explosion... etc...

Really it has it's moment but a PPC is so much better....

This just provides a logical function they 'SHOULD' have and helps to level the playfield comparison to energy weapons.  They're still going to be pretty sucky, just... less so now.

This also only counts for mechs, not vehicles... which are level one, and i'm going to rule can't see 'high enough' to enjoy the same advantage mechs do...

This will help promote that whole myth about mechs being better than vehicles...
Kusanagi Nagamichi
 player, 41 posts
Tue 17 Dec 2019
at 20:31
Re: Neutral Ground
No, I get what you mean and it makes total sense.  They talk about it in fluff and you look at the models and virtually all of them that have LRM racks have them pointed slightly or greatly upwards unless they are Assault mechs that by fluff are so much larger than a light mech.

...but not large enough to make them go over the level 2 designation nor small enough to make them level 1 like vehicles.

The biggest gain would be every mech that is two hexes away from buildings or level 2 walls the normally block LOS.  The defensive quality is taken away and the LRM can rain down fire without the other mech even getting a shot in at all.
Precentor Kitty
 GM, 95 posts
Tue 17 Dec 2019
at 20:42
Re: Neutral Ground
In reply to Kusanagi Nagamichi (msg # 111):

Which ... if you think about the weapon system, makes a huge amount of sense.

This only only be one wall though, in a city that's a maze, the extra buildings and stuff will block LOS like normal, consider it the chafe of terrain getting in the way block line of sight and stuff.

I'm debating about the concept of ignoring the building it DOES feel big, maybe too big.  A counter arguement could be made that this rule only works for things you have LOS with, and that building blocks LOS, so the only benefit would be to shoot through 'soft' targets like tree.

Which... if that tree you're ignoring is a level 2 tree, can be pretty big...

For BATTLETECH, i'm still toying with how to work out the rules, for 'this', i think what i have works okay, but yeah... the intent was to be walking along thinking you have full level 2 cover, and then being pelted by LRM fire...

LRM's start looking much more useful as an ambush weapon, which again... makes sense if you think about the weapon system.   If i ever run a full ruled b tech game, i'd like to tinker with this concept.

I mean, the scouting rules i worked out seem to work okay so i think this might too?

This message was last edited by the GM at 20:42, Tue 17 Dec 2019.

Kusanagi Nagamichi
 player, 42 posts
Tue 17 Dec 2019
at 21:04
Re: Neutral Ground
If you can fire past a building or wall that blocks LOS but not cause you can mark the target it would make sense that you could ignore the first 'woods' in a three wood hex in a row chain.
Precentor Kitty
 GM, 96 posts
Tue 17 Dec 2019
at 21:40
Re: Neutral Ground
Precentor Kitty:
Second... there are some conditions for these rules.

- You must have legal line of sight to your target.
 (ie.  There cant be three 'points' worth of trees in your way).

- Your target must be at Medium or Long Range.



As stated... the three woods would keep the rule from being used, because you can't SEE your target.

The question is, what can you see and not see?

For the purposes of 'seeing' a target for LOS,, i would consider a building, heavy woods... at least?  So if it's just one building you can indirect over it, but if there is anything else, like another tree in the way, it's too messy and you can't see the target to indirect fire, and will need a spotter...
Kusanagi Nagamichi
 player, 43 posts
Tue 17 Dec 2019
at 21:48
Re: Neutral Ground
So what happens if it's a building and two light woods?

Or rather the question is why can you see past one LOS blocker like a building or wall but not an extra set of woods that block LOS.  Hence why it seems to make it simpler to say with LRM's you treat a level 2 building like a heavy woods...which with LRM's allows you to ignore as they fire up and above them before returning low and attacking the target.

To keep consistency, in ignoring that first one (building or heavy woods but treat them both the same mod to the shot in a extra +2) it makes it a lot easier to digest and apply without caveats.

This message was last edited by the player at 22:37, Tue 17 Dec 2019.

Precentor Kitty
 GM, 97 posts
Wed 18 Dec 2019
at 00:17
Re: Neutral Ground
In the case of the building and two light woods, the building counts as a heavy wood, so that's already four points of woods in the way so you cant see the target, so you cant indirect fire on it without a third party spotter.

ie.  Rules as written state that you dont see stuff with three points of woods in the way.

So you would only get to ignore the first level 2, if you can actually detect them.

So in the case of 2 light trees and the building, you dont see the target...

Though really it's academic for real battle tech, this mech commander thing presumes you have six hexes of 'stuff' in the way, but that it's spread out enough so that only one or two actual trees are in the way.. or some such.

ie.  I'm tweaking the rules on level 2 buildings to treat them as 'heavy woods' for the purposes of determining LRM indirect fire, so if it's only one heavy wood (or level 2 building even?), you can ignore it, and fire as if it's not there, but when you add the second wood, it's too busy and you cant see it for weapon fire.

This message was last edited by the GM at 00:17, Wed 18 Dec 2019.

Precentor Kitty
 GM, 98 posts
Wed 18 Dec 2019
at 00:19
Re: Neutral Ground
I suppose another way i can ask about this is, if you understand the concept, how do you think the rule should be written?
Kusanagi Nagamichi
 player, 44 posts
Wed 18 Dec 2019
at 00:26
Re: Neutral Ground
I'm not sure yet hence why I ask questions about particular scenarios to see what your take on things are.

Like many things to see if it;s good or bad it needs to be tested in actual gameplay.  See if it breaks something unexpectedly or does little to affect the play style.  Like I was reading that in one of the more recent Cons where they were playing Battletech they have been tinkering with the concept of the woods you are in affects your firing as the attacker as well as those targeting you under the principle that they didn't like how everyone was jumping from heavy woods to heavy woods using it for extra cover to make it just as hard for people to hit them as the jumping impeded them hitting others in the open.
Precentor Kitty
 GM, 99 posts
Wed 18 Dec 2019
at 02:41
Re: Neutral Ground
Well this is just the crucible of the two of us working stuff out, there is no rush on any of this, especially since were not playing proper B Tech.

I was just thinking about this, because i was trying to work out the game effects for SRMs, LRMs, and overheat attributes for mechs.
Precentor Kitty
 GM, 100 posts
Thu 19 Dec 2019
at 19:31
Re: Neutral Ground
Okay... so i just spoke to a friend about this...

Here are the clear and simple rules.

LRMs can use 'indirect fire' which can ignore the effects of terrain provide as cover, by firing 'over them'.




LRMs can be fired normally.  If you see the target without obstruction you can just shoot them normally like any other weapon.

If you want to indirect fire them over terrain that provides cover, but does not break line of sight (like (2) light trees), you can fire 'spot for yourself' and fire over the trees, taking the standard +1 penalty for indirect weapon fire.

If you want to indirect fire on something you cant normally 'see', say through three trees or over a building, take an additional penalty for the indirect weapon fire.  While you can't 'see' the mech, you are suppose to have other ways to locate the mech, otherwise the entire game would be a fog of war, and you wont know where your opponent is for movement purposes.  (What this penalty is... was never stated, but i"m thinking the night time penalty, which presumes you cant see your target, and force you to rely on non-visual senors would be a fair penalty?)


Thoughts?
Kusanagi Nagamichi
 player, 45 posts
Fri 20 Dec 2019
at 22:37
Re: Neutral Ground
Let's play it and see how it feels.

That sort of thing feels more like an advantage that you'd pick up in your closer to normal battltech system rather than this limited to 3 hex range system.

Hell it gets me feeling like something similarly can be done with Ballistics and Energy:

I know this guy is on the other end of this 20CF light building that's 2 stories tall but I can't see him directly.  Hmm...well they should be right...*squeezes trigger and takes the same penalty as missile indirect using self-targeting.  The building erupts as the AC/20 slug tears into it -loosing 2 damage- and then blows out the back side -loosing 2 damage- and slams into the mechs head blowing it off with 16 points of damage*  Nice chalk up another kill!
Precentor Kitty
 GM, 101 posts
Sat 21 Dec 2019
at 19:44
Re: Neutral Ground
They do it in movies all the time.

I'm going to throw a flag down on the field for now, since it's the holidays.

Give RIxx a chance to come back on, and let you relax and enjoy the holidays instead of mucking around here.

That said i'm getting ready to go to my in laws at the moment, i PLAN to post something soon, if i forget poke me after xmas to do something?

(hugs)

HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
Kusanagi Nagamichi
 player, 46 posts
Sat 21 Dec 2019
at 20:05
Re: Neutral Ground
I'm not going anywhere for Christmas and New Years, only after for Eastern Orthodox Christmas on the 7th of January.  So if you do post I will be around and if you don't as the year wraps up I'll poke in here to remind you.

*hugs*

Happy Holidays to you too Snowy :D
Precentor Kitty
 GM, 103 posts
Sun 22 Dec 2019
at 15:03
Re: Neutral Ground
Posted an update, looks like Rixx was on but hasn't commented.

Hopefully just busy with the holidays, though... if he's not interested, hopefully he'll say as much to resolve the uncertainty about his situation.
Precentor Kitty
 GM, 104 posts
Wed 25 Dec 2019
at 22:45
Re: Neutral Ground
Happy Holidays all...

Does anyone know anything about Pathfinder 2e?  Is it radically different from 1e?
Kusanagi Nagamichi
 player, 47 posts
Thu 26 Dec 2019
at 01:01
Re: Neutral Ground
Happy Holidays to you too.

Nah, haven't played it.  I poked around the 2nd ed prd but it looked more like the adjustment between 2nd ed D&D and 3rd ed D&D.  Similarities but lots of differences.
Precentor Kitty
 GM, 105 posts
Thu 26 Dec 2019
at 01:26
Re: Neutral Ground
at least it's like like 4th ed which was unrecognizable.
Precentor Kitty
 GM, 106 posts
Mon 30 Dec 2019
at 17:59
Re: Neutral Ground
So, it's been nearly a week since he's bothered to look at the forum, and getting on to a month since he's bothered to post anything so i'm going to put him off on inactive for now, at least until he posts something so we know he has a pulse.

That pretty much means i'll post for his side nearly immediately, to keep things moving along, instead of waiting 2 days now.

The mission should move much quicker without the 3 plus days wait between notes.

This message was last edited by the GM at 18:06, Mon 30 Dec 2019.

Kusanagi Nagamichi
 player, 49 posts
Wed 8 Jan 2020
at 19:58
Re: Neutral Ground
Sorry for my quiet.

Had a lot more on my plate managing in-laws living with us post Christmas to New Years and then back around to my Eastern Orthodox mother who just had Christmas yesterday (they go by the Julian Calendar).  I should have a post up tonight.
Precentor Kitty
 GM, 108 posts
Thu 9 Jan 2020
at 01:12
Re: Neutral Ground
No worries, glad to hear from you again, figured it was the holidays or something, truth i've been sort of busy too so no worries.
Kusanagi Nagamichi
 player, 51 posts
Fri 10 Jan 2020
at 05:41
Re: Neutral Ground
Well first exchange of fire and all misses.

Only thing that feels off after that first shot is that a Trebuchet just fired 2 LRM15's at a group of vehicles at Long Range and next time the AMC's move it's the same as if they moved from anywhere between 14-21 hexes away from the Trebuchet to right next to it for their MG's to be in short range.

Don't know what to think of that perspective yet.

Take your time, no need to move quickly.  I've got to do Orthodox Christmas at my parents this weekend (can't drive out there during the weekday but weekend...lol), get ready for the wife to go to her swearing ceremony for her citizenship on the 16th next week and whatever celebrations we'll be doing on the long weekend...taking thursday and friday off so we can do something but don't know what yet.
Precentor Kitty
 GM, 109 posts
Sat 18 Jan 2020
at 21:03
Re: Neutral Ground
MGs are range 'zero' over run/physical attack weapons.  They don't tribute damage unless you're in the same hex as the target.

These AMC's are armed with (2) SRM2's , so it's not terribly impossible for them to move at flank speed and close with a Trebuchet with SRMs ?

In BTech you would be Base 3, Run +2, Target Def Modifier +3, Long range +4, so you would need like 12's, 1 in 36.  Considering the table only asked for 6's (I think?) that's only 1 in 6.  So the table evens out the bell curve of probability a little, which makes for a faster game since that's where most of the die rolls are calculated.

Thumb typing as i wait for train so can't post just yet.

This message was last edited by the GM at 21:13, Sat 18 Jan 2020.

Precentor Kitty
 GM, 112 posts
Mon 30 Mar 2020
at 18:42
Re: Neutral Ground
Right.  Enough Messing around, time to get started.

I have your first mission lined up, a pretty simple Recon in Force mission.

No Enemy Mechs ...

The Goal is to breeze through them, do your recon, and leave.

You may select the Mechs and their mech warrior pilots to use in this mission.

Post any questions you have regarding the mission, here.
Precentor Kitty
 GM, 113 posts
Sun 12 Apr 2020
at 17:13
Re: Neutral Ground
Okay,

Going to put up the flag of surrender and call it a day for this campaign.

Time to close the bookkeeping on this so i can look at other things more seriously.

Not a failed experiment, since i've learned some stuff but not ready to continue at this point if there isn't interest to support it.