Horses or men?

The whole mess is not making sense to me...

In reply to Finger of Fate (msg # 29):

Not sure what is unclear, but hopefully they are sharing your confusion!

MY FORCES

Split equally either side of the road, about 30 yards, as discussed. Half of all spearmen, half of all crossbowmen, half of all archers either side. Pre-arranged signals as discussed.

Archers to target horses, crossbowmen to target riders from now on. Spearmen helping reload until enemy ready to attack. Archers targeting the column nearest to them, so both sides getting hit equally since forces are equally split on both sides of the road.

ENEMY FORCES

Three columns of 8 + Leader. 1st round saw the first three and last mount of each side go down, and the Leader.

Second volley saw three more hoses on each side hit, and the most dominant leaders horse.

So there should be seven of each of the enemy outer columns hit and/or down, plus the main leaders horse, and one other leaders horse. At this stage, no riders have been targeted...

Crossbows take more time to reload, so the next volley should be combined with the crossbows again.

Anything still unclear?

Oh yes... lots unclear...

The Leader was in front and went down in the first volley, his horse was not seriously wounded and is trying to get to it's feet making it very hard for him to separate himself from the horses and it's struggles.

From the direction of advance

four men at arms advance to the left with swords mostly, one keeps his spear.
five men advance to the right, 4 carrying spears.

These are highly skilled and determined fighters in heavy armor; one on one, your guys are at a serious disadvantage.
But you do have numbers ...

One man on the left is quick to attack (guy with the spear)
and on the other side, three men are quick into the fray, two with spears and one with an axe.
All have shields.

In reply to Finger of Fate (msg # 31):

Right. As he approaches in heavy armour, the crossbowmen get fully reloaded and able to take careful aim...

How many horses went down in the second volley?

In reply to Mustafa Zephyr (msg # 32):

I note the imp ... did you already double the numbers?

In reply to Finger of Fate (msg # 33):

No, that is rolled damage.

OK and per weapon, not combined?

2 x 4 imp is 16, which makes the horse (s)  sag to the ground
2 x 8 imp is 32 and will kill the horse (s)
2 x 7 is no better and kills those Horse(s) as well.

The leaders horse is killed  and the man barely avoids being pinned by it, he is able to get free now, since the horse is no longer fighting.

In reply to Mustafa Zephyr (msg # 32):

OK. Just to clarify, we were targeting the horse of any apparent leader, not targeting any horse on the ground. I assume that someone still mounted attempted to take charge...that was the leaders horse targeted.

Good thing about long spears is they allow a lot of folk to poke you before you get close!

Crossbowmen will target men approaching, either mounted or on the ground, preferring to hit those with shields away from them. I assume range drops a little, so at -3 range?

The spearmen will attack in groups as well. Rolls for spearmen: 18, 13, 8, 12
Rolls for axemen: 7

Crossbow pairs Acc: 3, Range -3, skill 12 so target to hit 14, (Assume Regular Longbow, ST:11/12, 1d)
 so rolled M5:9(6), M6:9(6), M7:13(5), M7:8(3), M6:10(3), group of three.

Archer pairs, Acc: 3, Range -4, skill 13 so target to hit 12, (Assume Regular Longbow, ST:11/12, 1d)
 so rolled M5:12(5), M6:10(2), M7:5(2), M7:12(4), M6:10(1), M5:10(6), Leader:12(5)

Mustafa, having reloaded his crossbow, will carefully target the vitals of one of the mounted leaders with their back to him.


He will then survey exactly what is going on...as the crossbowmen and archers reload.
This message was last edited by the player at 05:36, Mon 05 Oct 2020.

OK, The overall leader who was tangled and trying to control his horse which was still up was what I considered targeted … that horse is now down and the Leader is getting clear and standing this turn.

Their spears are longer than yours (since designed to be used from horseback) , however that means an opponent has more leverage if he moves to control the tip.

-3 is probably correct; Armor is 5 on the front and 2-3 on the back except in some location where it is zero. Back of knees, butt etc.

Spears 8 & 12 are deflected; This is the issue with rolling for groups, everything is all good or all bad.
Axemen are all blocked.

OK, Archers and Crossbowmen are still shooting mounts?

Bodkin bolt seems wrong to me… Armor divisor reduces the armor, so the Leaders DR3 on his back becomes DR 1.5 or 2 … thus 3 points penetrate and do nine points to his vitals (pi to vitals is Imp x3, not x2). Obviously a major wound and he fails his HT roll, so falls stunned to the ground.

At this time there is a Leader on each flank (the column leader on each side), and a couple of men who stepped up and took charge  … these are not Snuffies, these are crack troops.

The 4 men on the left-
Spear thrust - 10  success
Swords - 7, 11, 9 all succeed

5 Men on the Right
Spears - 15, 11, 11 … two succeed
Swords - 9, 8   both succeed

The other 15 men are now moving to join their side … 8 on the left and 7 on the right, but there is no obvious over all commander at this moment.

As mentioned, they do not target injured horses that cannot be used to fight. They would have such instructions. You mentioned other leaders, so I was saying to target any of the uninjured leaders. Perhaps we need a way to designate who is who better. We cannot afford to keep wasting shots on those who are no longer threats because of poor communication.

Archers target horses with regular imp arrows, Crossbowmen target men with bodkin bolts. Bodkin bolts do pi damage, so unless you are targeting vitals or brain, they generally do not have the same wound multiplier as regular rounds. That is the trade-off.

Axemen were blocked...do I roll dodge/block for my men?

Also, what are those mounted troops doing?

OK, Turns are very short... the Overall leader was engaged.

Archers continue to target horses, that's fine; The first M6 & M7 are wounded horses, the second M6 horse is wounded, all the others are down if not dead.

Crossbows:  The First M5 [face-6 and down], 6 [left leg-6 & crippled] & 7 [groin-5 and down]  are not dead, but no longer fighting well with roughly 50% damage.
The second M7-[ 3 to rt arm]  &  6- [3 Rt leg]  are all injured.

Yes, you need to roll dodge/block for your men.

The Mounted men are a bit confused, they can't charge in to the woods easily and there are no targets in the open.
On the left, 5 men attempt to ride into the woods, 3 dismount.
On the right 3 men ride in and the other 4 dismount ... it is hard to ID the leaders in the confusion. Need a Perception -3 roll for anyone shooting at a leader.

In reply to Finger of Fate (msg # 39):

Ok, 3 out of 7 manage to dodge.

Mustafa rolled 6 under Per to identify the leaders, and he points them out to those with him.

How many of my men are able to attack, holding formation to protect against those still mounted and about to rush into the forest?

All of your men stand, the forest is a serious disadvantage to the horsemen as here near the edge, the branches grow out low to get the sun.
But no one is any formation in the woods, they are in a loose line in and among the trees.

Roll your attacks, the normal benefit of being on horseback is not available here, as the branches are seemingly on your side.

In reply to Finger of Fate (msg # 41):

Right. So all of my men can attack someone?

Probably not, figure 3 men max on any enemy soldier... and of course the archers and crossbows won't be swing them at these soldiers.

In reply to Finger of Fate (msg # 43):

Spearmen with longer reach should be able to do more than that though?

I am not clear on who is armed with what. The initial request was for spearmen and missile weapons...how many men armed with each weapon do I have then? I had envisioned that if we had no missile weapons, then the enemy would be approaching a sea of spears, but apparently that is not the case either. Or rather, how should we handle this since it seems quite confusing, and I am not sure either of us understand what the other is saying, or the situation being described. Perhaps a map is needed, so I can say who is rolling what, and who is armed with what, or handle this as mass-combat?

3 units of Heavy Infantry (Since all those fighting are either on foot, or may as well be on foot due to terrain), 8 in each unit, versus 3 units of Light Infantry and 7 units of medium infantry. TS 12 vs TS 27 (Light infantry being bowmen who do not fight in formation would have the Fire class, TS 6(F)). This factors in the armour difference. As leader, I will take medium risk (+1), and perhaps use tactics instead of strategy due to the small scale. They would be rallying, and we are engaged in what is essentially skirmishing...harassing at range. If they organize themselves and attack, we are using Deliberate defence.

There would be more involved, but maybe that is better than second guessing all the time. We can say the first round has already occurred, with the effect of reducing Heavy Cavalry to heavy Infantry. Defence bonus would seem to be +3, based on the area being selected for it. Still, with only 10 tactics, Mustafa is not the strongest tactical genius...risk factor being more significant.
This message was last edited by the player at 07:57, Wed 07 Oct 2020.

OK, we are slowly becoming bogged in details...
You took a 100 men, 25 with missile weapons and 75 with melee weapons.
Men who carry spears normally have a side arm (axe, sword etc) and a shield.

A spear in the woods is a bit more awkward than a hand weapon. Your spears are shorter than their spears by about 2 feet.

You cannot have an organized shield wall in the woods, so the spearmen are working about in the trees ... that's both good and bad.

Combat is almost always disorganized ... figure each group of 25 Medium infantry is 4 Squads (groups) of 6 men (5 + a corporal) and a leader Sergeant.
The Lights are organized similarly but every second "Corporal" is actually a Junior Sergeant, so they can be used more loosely in groups of 12 ... Crossbows and Bows are not mixed at the squad level , but are mixed about equally with in the platoon of 25 men. The Platoon sergeant (leader of 25) does not carry a bow or crossbow. He is there to direct the fight/operation.

I'll grant a +3 versus men in the street while you are not (they can't see into the woods well at all.
Mounted men in the woods lose their advantage for being mounted (uphill or higher)  and suffer a -2 for the mounts having been attacked last turn (they do not have to have been targeted, just the awareness that horses around them have been hurt).

The attackers also suffer a -2 for having moved from bright light into the darker woods and for leaves blocking clear vision.

Your men suffer a -2 to attack from one man in a group attacking a horsemen (mounted or dismounted), as his spear is longer, all others attacking him have no modifiers.   Once their men ditch the spear, that modifier goes away.

I am assuming that each enemy soldier is being ganged up on, so he is at a disadvanatge which varies by how many and where they attack from; assume the all have a large shield on their left side.

In reply to Finger of Fate (msg # 45):

Yeah, I felt we were getting bogged down, and that is why I was proposing an option. If we stick with individual combat, what rolls should I make? I am not about to make 50 rolls...that would really bog things down! But the number of modifiers and different weapons starts to increase the rolls terribly...can we narrow it down to 10-15 rolls per round?

OK, Lets simplify... you have three medium infantry for each of their men ...
Also a missile man...  and not all their men are engaged right now...  so lets roll on the mass combat... the get a plus for quality, you get one for numbers (say 5:1 thus turn). Not sure the visibility plays in this... but could be added.

I'll let you roll it

In reply to Finger of Fate (msg # 47):

Good Quality gear should cost 50% more than normal heavy infantry gear, or around $6,000 per man, while normal heavy infantry gear would cost about $4000 per man ($40,000 for each unit).

Good quality troops (ie in training) also cost more to train them. Both increase TS by 50% per level.

I am assuming that my men are average quality in gear and training? Mustafa will order his men to use retreating dodge to fall back into the forest if attacked.

3 units of Heavy Infantry (Since all those fighting are either on foot, or may as well be on foot due to terrain), 8 in each unit. Heavy infantry is already in good armour, much better than medium infantry. Have these guys got fine weapons or fine armour that would qualify for a quality bonus in addition to the bonus for heavy Infantry? Normally a heavy infantry unit has 10 in it...these have the same TS with just 8 men. Good Quality gear should cost 50% more than normal heavy infantry gear, or around $6,000 per man, while normal heavy infantry gear would cost about $4000 per man ($40,000 for each unit).

Troop strength (TS) is 4 for heavy infantry units, 3 for medium and 2 for light, with no class modifiers, though you could give half of them the Cav class if they stay mounted. In this terrain, Cav class superiority not considered anyway.

I have 3 units of Light Infantry and 7 units of medium infantry. (Light infantry being bowmen who do not fight in formation would have the Fire class, TS 6(F)). All of these already factor in light armour. So TS 27, with TS 6(Fire) for the missile weapons. I get +3 for having Missile weapons (Fire superiority that is not matched).

To represent the bonus we have in the trees, we can cover that with a Defensive Bonus of +3. That should include the visibility due to the terrain we picked.

Let us assume that the first round has taken place. Well, it has. Their losses were to convert half the Cavalry to Infantry due to losses of horses.

So as we start, they have TS of 18, we have TS of 27 with class superiority of 6 in Firepower. Given we have 100 men against 25, in an ambush, they are a lot better than us 1:1. Of course I stacked the odds with numbers, I had the advantage of knowing roughly how many there were.

So I get +2 for the troop strength ratio, +3 for the firepower, +3 for the defensive bonus. I have a tactics skill of 10 and he is taking some risk, but not great. Risk factor +1, and start by skirmishing (+3 to roll, -5% casualties) so I am rolling against an effective skill of 22.

Would a tactics skill by their leader of 12 be reasonable? I assume that the enemy strategy is to attack, assuming a successful Rally at the end of last turn. No modifiers or penalties.

Rolled Tactics, First one being mine, the second theirs. My roll was 5, theirs 18, unless you want to reroll that. Calculations based on those rolls and the assumptions above.

My roll was success by 22-5=17.
Their roll was 12-18= failure by 6

That is a loss that round by 23. Since I was only skirmishing, the margin of victory is halved and I do not gain any position advantage. So at 10-14 margin of victory, they take 30% loss, and I take 5% - 5% (Skirmish) = 0% losses. Next round, we all start with the same factors, but they have an additional -6 to their tactics roll due to casualties.

This also effects the misfortunes roll for the leader. Since I did not take casualties, I do not have to roll. Since they took 30% casualties, they must roll >8 to not be injured. Lol, I rolled a 7, so 2d-1 injury!

The next round, we will attempt to use Deliberate defence.

Summarize:
Mustafa: 10+2+3+3+2(Deliberate defence)+1(Risk factor) = 21
Enemy: 12-6(Casualties) + any possibility for attack strategy? = 6

That is how mass combat system works, anyway. I have been pretty conservative, though rolling a critical failure on behalf of the enemy for that round was a lucky roll! But then, he did have his horse on him at the start...so maybe that works!

OK, I like the way you handled it, but would have made two changes... While excellent Heavy infantry/cav, they have good equipment, not fine or anything better than good. 2nd, There leader had no bonus last turn as he wasn't leading!

This turn he may be... but lets assume some light infantry man or two saw a shot ... for 2-1 one I rolled an 8, so 7 points  to two places, right leg ... which bounces off his armor and left arm from behind which injures his shield arm for 3 points.
So Leader is at -3 for this turn and for use of his shield.  Advantage-> Ambushers.

On the left, 2 men and a horse are down ... the rider is unable to fight this next turn as he successfully gets off the horse.
on the right one dismounted and one mounted are down but no horses are down ...

In reply to Finger of Fate (msg # 49):

Ok, I was just basing off your comments. If they are just typical heavy infantry, then the TS would just be 12 instead of 18, unless we have improved their quality. I understand that was your intent?

While the main leader was not leading, I was assuming there was someone rallying the troops, so I just ran with that. The hazards of war roll represents the attacks on the leader, hence the 2d-1 injury...

So moving forward, should I use the next leaders skill, which may be 11 instead of ten, and keep the TS the same?

The troop quality is excellent... the armor was good.

The main leader, skill 12 Tactics is injured... lesser leaders are both good, one 11 one 12... however one of the men down on the right side was he man leading... he was the 12...  so no leader on that side this turn.

In reply to Finger of Fate (msg # 51):

Troop quality Good or Excellent? Excellent are crack troops. Excellent troops are as below:

• Elite: Picked troops, seasoned by a high proportion of combat veterans. Examples are special operators, elite guard units, and troops raised from childhood as full-time soldiers. This category can also include especially heroic or fierce creatures.

• Good: Long-service professional soldiers, or troops from warrior backgrounds that emphasis early and realistic combat training.

• Average: The mass of ordinary soldiers. This can include decently trained and led conscripts; long-service soldiers in a force with indifferent leadership, training, or morale; and enthusiastic and skilled part-time militia.

For the roll, we need to select one effective leader, for the roll. We can assume they default to the 'Attack' option without someone directing the fight, though.

Mustafa: 10+2+3+3+2(Deliberate defence)+1(Risk factor) = 21
Enemy: 12-6(Casualties) + any possibility for attack strategy? = 6

These would be Elite; The Injured over all leader ...a 12 who has just been wounded, which in GURPS is a -3 to actions this turn... That might be a bit harsh for the Mass Combat System, but he shouldn't be a 12.
The strategy at the moment is attack into the ambush ...