Gameplay Expectations Discussion.   Posted by The Professor.Group: 0
The TA
 GM, 27 posts
Wed 18 Sep 2019
at 19:39
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
in response to soulborn:

4) yes, at least that's how i read the question. would you prefer old school video game style where you are basically sent to deal with situation A, you fight your way through the various "levels" and deal with A, then you're advanced to the next "area" where you deal with B. or would you prefer a newer open world type game where you are told the overall situation, then you have to decide how to deal with it and in what order.
The Professor
 GM, 64 posts
Fri 20 Sep 2019
at 20:24
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
Yeah exactly. Iíve run both styles in the past and either way half of the players donít like it, either they want to do more exploring, or they have no clue what to do(even though there are tons of hints). So Iíll just go off what the majority votes for.
The Soulborn
 player, 18 posts
Sat 21 Sep 2019
at 23:47
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
I wouldn't mind railroading here... maybe with some freedom on how we deal with Situation A. But we deal with Situation A.

By the way, any news on our items?
The TA
 GM, 29 posts
Tue 24 Sep 2019
at 02:47
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
ok. so we've been discussing the question of items. we have thoughts, and i think we've reached a point where we need input from all of you.

1) we're leaning toward full WBL (DM approval of the actual items purchased of course). i've seen limitations such as "no items worth more than 1/3 of the WBL" and such, but i prefer the "don't abuse it" approach. we also considered a number slightly under WBL but give certain special items (see below), but any number under WBL would be arbitrary and quite frankly more trouble than it's worth to come up with.

2) treasure going forward. i run an epic game here, and i've found treasure and loot to be problematic. in short, i pretty much don't give any. without meaning to or realizing it when i created one of the initial scenarios, i gave an incredibly ridiculous amount of treasure in the form of a number of mithril golems. they've left said defeated golems' bodies in the care of a trusted agent who is melting them down and selling the mithril. this has allowed me to give them money at intervals to keep up with WBL without needing to actually worry much about treasure all the time, and i've found that quite freeing as a DM of an epic level game. at such high levels, encounters and missions tend to be plot based rather than "which monster lair are we ransacking for treasure this weekend".

2a) we could go with CRPG style treasure, where you defeat the monsters and they just drop random loot (even if such makes no sense whatsoever). this takes the difficulty out of treasure and keeping up with WBL, but loses a bit of "realism". normally, a campaign might include specific encounters where a given monster has a lair and you raid the lair to kill the monster and thereby gain its hoard. however, the campaign we're considering does not have this style of encounter in it, and putting such hoards into it would be difficult and feel artificial.

2b) we could leave the campaign as is, and rely on you to research and find your own monster lairs to raid as side quests when you feel you need more loot. however, this requires you to come up with your own side quests ("hey, i feel like i want to slay a dragon this week.") i'm sure we can throw together an appropriate side quest encounter, but it would be just that and it would be random loot in the hoard. nothing campaign related other than giving you the opportunity to earn large sums of cash to keep up with WBL and maybe prepare for the next part of the campaign.

2c) at the beginning of the campaign, or maybe during char creation, you will designate one or more items to be special to your character. for example, the front line tank might have a signature greatsword and special armor. the rogue might have a cloak and dagger. stuff like that. we haven't decided on a set number of items yet, maybe one for every magic item slot. anyway, these items would then have the ability to grow with the character. exact system undecided at this time, but something along the lines of absorbing the essence of each monster you kill or great task you perform. something like that. this would both alleviate the need for treasure and loot, as your equipment would be improving on its own as you progress through the campaign. you would have some input into how your equipment evolves, as you will be the ones deciding which equipment to absorb which essence (if this is the desired approach, we will have details worked out before we begin), and which essence to pursue.

thoughts?
The Divine Mind
 Divine Mind, 15 posts
Tue 24 Sep 2019
at 07:25
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
For me, treasure isn't a problem. I think too that character and specially high level characters like ours, have some feeling connection with their items. His favourite bow, his favourite armor, his favourite cloak of resistance, etc.

Also I don't really like the idea of defeat bosses, get random treasures. For me, creatures use their treasure just like we PCs use ours. That means that most items won't be useful for us. But maybe we can go back to the base where a blacksmith can use the magic in them to empower our stuff?

Also, I vote for the idea one item being empowered for free. And yes, I expect a degree of railroading. Let's say 60/40?
The Ranger
 The Ranger, 18 posts
Wed 25 Sep 2019
at 19:38
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
I firmly oppose railroading

as for loot, I prefer the logical route. "he has a sword and shield so you can loot a sword and shield off him... there may be some damage, or it may be magical and undamaged." Extra stuff can become crafted, like... getting a fire rat robe (inyuyasha ;p) would mean going out and acquiring fire rat hair... one way or another... Then either crafting it yourself or hiring someone to do it.

Want dragon hide plate armor? go find some dragon scales if no one has such armor already made.

It's also how I am use to playing.

As for WBL, I prefer full... but will largely be ok with as little as half or a third WBL.

This message was last edited by the player at 19:48, Wed 25 Sept 2019.

The TA
 GM, 31 posts
Thu 26 Sep 2019
at 19:05
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
i agree with Ranger's assessment of
The Ranger:
getting a fire rat robe (inyuyasha ;p) would mean going out and acquiring fire rat hair... one way or another... Then either crafting it yourself or hiring someone to do it.

Want dragon hide plate armor? go find some dragon scales if no one has such armor already made.

that is also what i am used to. however, we're not starting at low levels. you're level 20 to start off. that means you've already made a career out of adventuring. presumably, you've already crafted and adventured with the items you really wanted. at this point, i would expect you to have one or more signature items that you are recognized by having. for table top rpg's, i prefer not to take the mmorpg approach. namely, you've reached max level for non-epic adventuring. you move to the "epic" zone and soon replace all your gear with epic zone gear so you can continue adventuring. this just feels wrong to me for a non-video game rpg.

i also agree with the assessment
The Ranger:
I prefer the logical route. "he has a sword and shield so you can loot a sword and shield off him... there may be some damage, or it may be magical and undamaged."

however, epic level play in my experience involves a lot of monsters and creatures with minimal loot. this makes it difficult to organically keep up with WBL. thus why i was considering an alternative method of improving your gear. if you want to craft something new, you are of course able to do so. however, if a level 20 character has a truly beloved piece of gear, they should not be penalized for not wanting to get rid of it or use something else just in order to survive. the alternative approach would also allow improving equipment on the fly, as it were. i'm not sure how much downtime will be available for crafting or purchasing, and divorcing the party from the necessity of downtime allows for the group to proceed at the pace they want.

put another way, the premise of this game as i understand it is "the multiverse is ending. the gods and their champions are otherwise occupied. so it is up to the B-team (you guys) to step up." this pretty much screams "there's a specific time table involved before everything goes kablooey." strong gear can take a long time to craft and enchant, which means such crafting will likely be unavailable without risking major calamity.

anyway, it was just a thought i had which is why i'm asking the players.
The Hexblade
 Mercy Sweetjoy, 21 posts
Sat 28 Sep 2019
at 00:25
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
The idea was more "The multiverse is ending. Most of the gods and their champions are dead/imprisoned. So it is up to the B-team (you guys) to step up."

What about this? We free a champion or deity and everyone get a "favor" from it. "Hey! Thanks for freeing me! How can I repay you! Oh... you want your sword to have a +6 enhancement bonus?... Ok... I guess I can do that..."
The Ranger
 The Ranger, 19 posts
Sat 28 Sep 2019
at 05:48
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
I dont need downtime, for the most part.

However, there are rules for crafting while adventuring. You can get a solid 4 hours crafting each night while adventuring. A level 20 char can easily, effectively, use that to craft new, improved, or otherwise necessary items. I would even be willing to dedicate one of my feats to the magical arms and armor feat since it would also allow me to craft magic arrows (something useful to me) which would also let me work on peoples armor and weapons...

I like crafting stuff anyways.

there could be good rules for using heaps of mundane shit... as previously mentioned. I could easily melt down metal from armors and turn it into arrow heads, leather into bindings and even foods (rangers are well known for being the food making guys, yay survival).

for me, almost everything will be useful. Even heaps of things can be useful. At the very least, I can turn heaps of things into heal skill resources and camping supplies for a night (leather tents anyone?).

there is almost no level things become obsolete in a game I am involved in.

I dont want to pressure anything though, so while I absolutely present all of this I want it known I am just speaking with excitement. I am not being adamant or aggressive, nor will I be upset with the final choice made.
The Soulborn
 player, 19 posts
Sat 28 Sep 2019
at 18:55
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
I get it that you are basically offering as the crafter of the party. I have no problem with that, but you realize that crafting requires not only time but also XP and feats, right?
The Ranger
 The Ranger, 20 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2019
at 08:08
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
Assassinís Dagger

This wicked-looking, curved +2 dagger provides a +1 bonus to the DC of a Fortitude save forced by the death attack of an assassin.

Moderate necromancy; CL 9th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, slay living; Price 18,302 gp; Cost 9,302 gp + 720 XP.

Even the most basic encounters are going to have CR 5... maybe CR 3... creatures. a dragon is easily CR 6-21.
A CR 5 creature gives 1800 xp according to the CR to xp calculator.

so, if I would need to go out and get supplies to use for crafting then I expect I am not going to end up netting any kind of exp deficit. In fact, I would probably expect the TA and the gm to find it negiligable and just not deal with xp resource in any capacity.

Or, do we expect to hit level 21+(epic levels) in this game? Even then, I would only just be leveling slower because I'd be spending xp. And yet, even still, I believe you guys can xp on things I craft as well (say, if I am crafting something for you).

Anyways, as the parties 'wizard' I am going to need to take up some kind of scroll like feat anyways. I plan to use Tattoo magic so that I can give you guys quasi spell like abilities (tap the tattoo and the spell is cast on yourself, no spell craft or use magic device checks needed).
The Hexblade
 Mercy Sweetjoy, 22 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2019
at 16:12
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
I was not expecting this to reach epic levels, but the GMs have talked about it and I am not against it. I applaud your boldness but I visited the XP calculator and it says that the XP gained from a CR5 challenge is 0, both if you are the only one and if there is 6 of us fighting it.

http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/
The Ranger
 The Ranger, 21 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2019
at 18:42
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
and you dont think thats strange? 0 xp for a cr 5? impossible.
The Divine Mind
 Divine Mind, 16 posts
Mon 30 Sep 2019
at 00:30
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
It is possible because when you are level 20, a Cr 5 challenge is almost nothing. You can defeat it with a single lvl 1 spell.
The TA
 GM, 34 posts
Mon 30 Sep 2019
at 02:21
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
eh... my mind is a little numb from lack of sleep due to newborn. however, i strongly dislike the xp cost for crafting. i'm tempted to do away with it, as it has only ever caused problems for me. that being said, i'm not sure how that might affect balance in 3.5e. i know pathfinder got rid of it, and in 2nd ed crafting was a way to earn xp.

i'll leave this one up to Professor's call. what are your thoughts on nixing the xp cost for crafting? also, i kind of like the idea of spending some time and effort crafting on the go. what do you think about offering everyone a free crafting feat? yet one more reason for all these particular characters to group together if they each craft something different and can help support each other in the group's efforts. especially if we allow siphoning off magic from other items to fuel crafting. that way you can use treasure you find to create other stuff.

anyway, just thoughts and i'm not sure whether they're good ones.
The Ranger
 The Ranger, 22 posts
Mon 30 Sep 2019
at 17:50
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
pathfinder 1st ed, kingmaker, also uses crafting to earn xp.
The TA
 GM, 37 posts
Tue 1 Oct 2019
at 01:24
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
on the topic of xp, i mentioned to the Professor, and figured i'd mention it here. i'm recommending against figuring out xp for encounters. in my experience, it's just a drain on the DM's mental resources. if you've never run a high level game on PbP, it can be a draining experience to begin with. trying to calculate xp for encounters and keeping track of all that just adds to the burden. in my games, i just level people up after they've achieved certain goals or to keep them where i want them plot-wise versus level. i find that approach much easier to handle, and it lets me just craft the encounters for fun rather than getting the party enough xp to level them up at the right times.

as for this game, i'm thinking you'll be level 20 for the length of the campaign. once all the gods/champions are saved/freed, then we can discuss whether we want to continue the game or end it. if we continue it, maybe we can level up then.
The Professor
 GM, 70 posts
Tue 1 Oct 2019
at 18:13
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
Yeah donít worry about xp at all.

At all at all.

We will let you know when youíve leveled up, but anyone focused on that right now needs to focus instead on posting their character sheet.
The Divine Mind
 Divine Mind, 17 posts
Wed 2 Oct 2019
at 05:16
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
Certainly. I will finnish this weekend. I have most of it already done and I only need to put it in text format.
The Ranger
 The Ranger, 23 posts
Thu 3 Oct 2019
at 08:30
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
I dislike 'milestone leveling'
The Professor
 GM, 72 posts
Thu 3 Oct 2019
at 17:22
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
I dislike 2 months of no character sheet but oh well.
The TA
 GM, 39 posts
Thu 3 Oct 2019
at 20:25
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
lol. ah the banter...

and why dislike milestone leveling, if you don't mind my asking?  i mean, there are games that just don't level. ever. that annoys me. at least with milestone leveling you know you will level up. for that matter, how would you ever know whether it is milestone leveling or regular leveling? i mean, a DM could just divide the xp up amongst all the encounters and just grant you xp in such a rate that you will level up by the milestone and i don't see how you would know the difference. or is it xp behind the scenes that you don't like? you prefer to see how much xp you have so you can see you're making progress?
The Professor
 GM, 73 posts
Thu 3 Oct 2019
at 22:48
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
I apologize. I've been very cheeky all day.
The Ranger
 The Ranger, 24 posts
Fri 4 Oct 2019
at 23:48
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
I prefer rules by the book and as demonstrated sometimes xp can be a resource. it breaks the system to deviate.

Mile stone leveling is a deviation.

Also, sometimes, it just doesnt feel right. In another game, we went and dida festival and learned our quest.... now we are leveled up. yay milestone leveling logic? I dont need straight combat xp leveling, but even in the pc games you get xp for dealing with traps and locks.

Quests give xp just for finishing.

and there are times in plenty of games like the old republic and more where you get xp for talking to people.
The Divine Mind
 Divine Mind, 20 posts
Sun 6 Oct 2019
at 03:38
Gameplay Expectations Discussion
It also makes things easier for DMs. That way, they don't have to keep track of the XP they give and they don't need to scale the difficulty of an encounter if one of us level up first.