Seeking Learned Opinions:  Cascade Skill Mechanic in Traveller Plus

NOTE:  This topic remains in Group Zero, as discussion of rules should be conducted in a civilized manner, anyway, and may be of benefit to the general Traveller community.

I figure it's time to start this topic, mainly because I have a question for the group:

In Traveller Plus, cascade secondary skills start at two levels below the primary from the point of "possessing" that primary skill.

In the past, I interpreted possession of a skill to mean having it at level 1, but I see an inconsistency in my math:  my character sheet shows secondary skills at -1 when the primary is at +1.  That's a distance of three, not two.

What I believe needs to happen:

• Possession of a skill means having it at any level, including level zero.
• At level zero for the primary skill, secondaries would be at -2
• This means that, at level one, secondary skills would be at level -1.

The alternative interpretation is that holding a primary at zero imposes a DM of -2.

Which do you folks think is the right interpretation?  Please look over the sections of Traveller Plus dealing with cascade skills before registering an opinion.  I already know which interpretation will probably be preferable with most players, but which one is correct?, that is, more in line with the author's actual intent.  (I guess I could try to contact Ed Messina about it.)
This message was last edited by the GM at 14:46, Thu 19 Sept 2019.

As I understand it there is no base skill as such. Just the cascade skill. If you have one cascade skill, you can do any other skill with the same parent with a -2 DM.

So if you have Vehicle (Air) - Airship 0, then you can make a Vehicle (Air) - Grav at -2. If you had no Vehicle (Air) skill, the DM is -4.

If you had Vehicle (Air) - Airship 2, it would still mean that you can use Vehicle (Air) - Grav at -2. The extra expertise in Airships does not make you any better at flying Grav vehicles. But you're still better off than someone with no training at all.

So, if I'm reading your original question correctly, the second option is correct.

I believe you're over-thinking it.
The T+ 'Cascade' principle is clearly derived from the description of skills such as Gun Combat and Vehicle in LBB Book 1, even though they weren't given the name 'Cascade' back then.

LBB1 states, on page 22:

...other similar vehicles may be operated by the individual at skill level minus 1.

I have always taken that to mean that if you have Ground Car 0, you can operate an ATV with a skill one level (or two levels in T+) below 0 (an improvement on -4, if you don't know how to drive at all).

If you improve your driving skill, gain better knowledge of the road, pre-empting other drivers, etc, and you rise to Ground Car 1, you automatically use that additional ability when you're in an ATV, so your ATV skill improves, too, to 0 (or -1 in T+).

And so on. When you're a champion driver at Ground Car 4, you're pretty competent in an ATV, too, with a skill of ATV 3 (or 2), you know how to take corners at speed, pull out of a skid, etc, no matter which vehicle you're driving. Get in a helicopter, however, and you're back to clueless...

The very nature of a Cascade, IMO, is to group those skills together - when you improve one, you improve them all. If I can hit a bullseye 9 times out of 10 with a rifle, I'm pretty sure I can hit it 8 times out of 10 with a carbine, and if I train my accuracy with the rifle, you can bet my accuracy with a carbine will improve too.

Any interpretation that leaves 'similar skills' behind, just ain't logical IMO.

Edit: I'm not quite sure where you get your 'distance of three' between +1 and -1? Surely that's a distance of two?
This message was last edited by the player at 19:44, Thu 12 Sept 2019.

@ Dawn Hunter:

I meant to say a distance of three exists between +1 and -2, but that's not what the spreadsheets do.  Therein was the conflict in my addled brain, however poorly I expressed it originally.

Traveller Plus states:



Basically the question I'm trying to settle is whether one has "possession" of a skill at level zero or at level one.  Lamentably, none of the character creation examples make this plain that I've seen so far, and I've been using Traveller Plus for a while now.  Commentary about level zero skills not being usable on a permanent, professional basis tend to make me think actual possession of a skill does not occur until it reaches level +1.  That would make the present interpretation I hold to be the correct one, but I wanted input on whether or not I'm parsing the rules correctly.

It's clear from the text, by the way, that Basic and Common, Advanced and Hard mean the same things with respect to skills.  I seem to have been headed toward a standarization around Common and Hard skills in my Errata so far.

@ Leon Drake:

Hmm... I had to go and mention the Errata above... In that document, I stated:

So it seems I had dealt with this question in my mind already.  Getting old will do this to ya.  Sorry, folks, looks this I can mark this one solved.

So... just to be clear, here's how it is:

Level Zero Skills:  these permit temporary use, not sustained permanent use.  Background skills shall not be selected from a Cascade.

Cascade Skills:  The secondary skills in a Cascade take a value two less than that of the primary.  Thus, at Level +1 for the primary, all secondaries are usable at -1 (that is, at a -1 penalty).  Once the primary skill advances to level two, all secondaries are usable as level zero (on a temporary, emergency basis).  Once the primary advances to Level Three, the secondaries will advance to Level One, and so forth.
This message was last edited by the GM at 09:34, Fri 13 Sept 2019.

That suits me.

If it helps, my ruling is usually that you possess a skill if you have it at Level 0. After all, if you don't possess a skill, you have a -4 penalty. The fact that Skill 0 negates that penalty tells me that it is a skill you possess. It is also labelled Skill 0, presumably for a reason.

I generally rule that Skill 0 can be used for as long as you wish, there's nothing temporary about it, it's a skill like any other, BUT you won't get legally and officially hired with Skill 0.

You won't get a job on a regular liner with Pilot 0, but if you buy your own ship (or your mate buys a ship) and Pilot 0 is all your crew's got, then you can pilot that ship for as long as you like (or until you crash it!)

However, that's just for conversational information. This is your game, not mine. :)

In reply to Dawn Hunter (msg # 5):

Yeah, it's our game, but I get what you're saying and dig the respect.  I just got something to eat, so I'll be up for about another hour, then off to bed.

Tomorrow's a day off, but I probably won't be back until late afternoon or evening.

NOTE to all Travellers!  This topic remains in Group Zero.  See my edit of the original post to this group for further details.

I see no reason to deviate too far from the spirit of Traveller in conducting combat here, but wish to make certain changes for the sake of expediting combat and making it more cinematic.

Combat in Traveller is something that takes place simultaneously instead of using an initiative mechanic.  That suits me fine, as it cuts a step.  That said, here's how it is:

Combat occurs when two opposing forces engage in violent conflict.

RANGE

I will set the range at the start of the encounter.  Ranges possible are close, short, medium, long, or extreme (very long if we're going "by the book").

SURPRISE

I have the option to grant surprise to any side in a conflict as I see fit.  If the players are granted surprise, they make a combat round of attacks that is unopposed by its targets.  Conversely, if an opposing force is granted surprise, the players may make no defense during the surprise attack.  Any surprising force can elect to evade an encounter instead of attacking.

Factors that play into the assignment of surprise are listed in the combat rules under Surprise DMs, but I will make the assignment of surprise according to my own lights.

Each member of the surprising party gets one attack.  If surprise is not lost after this, (no one on the receiving end gives an alarm or non-silenced shots are fired), another round of surprise attacks is made.  Once surprise is lost, the last surprise round is completed once all party members complete their attack for that round.

COMBAT

Combat Tasks take the form 2d6+DMs with a base difficulty of 8+ (8 or greater).

I will ask you to make unmodified throws "to hit" and then I will apply the proper modifiers.

Anyone throwing an unmodified 12 will be said to have scored a Critical Hit.  This will usually kill or destroy a target.

An unmodified 2 is a fumble.  Not only does it miss the target, but something bad will happen over and above that.

I will then adjudicate the results, and describe them to you in qualitative terms.

What I mean by that last is:  we are not going to deal in actual damage points being subtracted from STR, DEX, or END as per the normal Traveller rules.  If your character gets hit, I'll tell you how they feel, how they look, and what they may still be capable of in the descriptive combat results.  Anyone examining you will be told what their skills and capabilities will allow.

Likewise, if you hit a target, I may tell you, for instance, "Your shot hit the mark.  The target appears to be bleeding from the right shoulder, but is still alive."  I'll never tell you, "You did 6 points of damage."

Such vagueness is on purpose - it simulates the age-old "fog of war".

I hope my stance here is not too far off the mark.

Sounds fine - I always feel that rating damage by a number was always a little flat. Yes you need a way to measure damage and how much someone can take, but I have always preferred descriptive narration and played with those effects.

If you're happy to keep track of injuries in this manner (and have a rough idea of how many hits we have left) then I'm happy to roll with it.

I'm in 6 Traveller games and have been for about a yr. Never been in combat in one of them.

TRAINING WHILE UNDERWAY

As you train, you will make attempts to progress in the form of task throws.  If you fail your first attempt, your difficulty for the next is reduced by one.  Example:  someone who failed PT at a difficulty of 7+ on the first go-round will face a difficulty of 6+ on their next attempt.  The lowest difficulty allowed is a 3+.

Once you have achieved a success (and advanced a level), the difficulties will reset.  For instance, someone who succeeds against a difficulty of 6+ will face a 7+ on the next attempt (for the next level of skill).  (Reset is always to the base value I've established for the skill in question.)

In this way, if you keep trying to learn something, it gets easier when you fail.

Throwing an unmodified two (snake eyes - a fumble) will get you a counseling session with your instructor the first time it happens.  In the case of PT and other physically oriented skills, you may suffer a small injury that will keep you out of training for a week.  (A change of training path might prove useful while recovering.)

Throwing an unmodified twelve (boxcars) will net a bonus:  either the skill being taught will advance by two, or the skill advances by one and a related characteristic (STR, DEX, END, INT, or EDU) will advance by one.  (I'll post a firm list of which characteristics relate to which skills for this purpose sometime this week.  So far, no one has scored a set of boxcars or a fumble.)

It is the player's choice as to which of these happens (whether the skill goes up by two, or skill and characteristic advance by one).

It is my choice as to which related characteristic advances.

So do we make a roll each week and after a number of successes we gain a point of skill or stat?

Naw, man, this is cram school.  Every success gains a point of skill or characteristic.  Every failure makes it easier to succeed the next time unless that failure is a fumble.  A fumble may have other effects as I see fit.
This message was last edited by the GM at 06:24, Mon 23 Dec 2019.

Bring it on!!!!

It might be advisable for me to post a list of base difficulties for advancement.  I'm working from memory (always risky in my case), so if I make a mistake, point it out to me, please.

Skill               Base          Related Characteristics
CQC/Brawling:       7+            STR, DEX, END
Physical Training:  7+            STR, DEX, END
Engineering:        8+            DEX, END, EDU
Gunnery:            8+            DEX, END, EDU
Medical:            8+            DEX, EDU, SOC
Navigation:         7+            DEX, EDU, SOC
Leader              7+            STR, END, SOC
Pilot               7+            DEX, END, INT
Instructor          7+            INT, EDU, SOC

I think that covers most of the skills in play for advancement right now... as I re-read old posts I may discover others already set.  If new skills come into play for training, I'll list them here for reference.

Watch Qualifications:  Engineering watches are at 8+.  All others are at 7+

As stated before, if you fail, difficulty goes down by one on the next roll. Success in watch qualification means you are qualified, and need not roll again.
This message was last edited by the GM at 02:48, Sun 21 June 2020.

As a question regarding training, do we include our skill levels in the training rolls??

I'm assuming we don't (and I haven't included them) as cannot find mention of it anywhere - and doing so would mean that the better a character was at a skill, the easier it would be for them to improve whereas in reality the better they are the harder it is to improve.

Should have answered you sooner.  No, don't include DMs on your training attempts.  (If I've done that previously, my error, and the rolls and outcomes already adjudicated still stand.)

Thanks - didn't include the rolls, but am sure I saw somewhere that I ended up with a +2 bonus and the only reason for that was my skill level at the time. All good though.

08:16, Today: Harry McStubbin rolled 11 using 2d6.  melee.blade

Do the related characteristics give a bonus to the roll to improve a skill or characteristic?

To be quite honest, I haven't given it much thought.  I'm tending to say, "No", though.  This is gettin' wacky enough without it.

I'd say no as well.

Nah.  Your current skill level is shown on your character sheet.  I keep the training rolls pretty simple or it would be more of a headache to administer them for y'all.  The farthest I think I went was using failure to modify subsequent rolls.  Let me check...

This message will contain rates of pay for all active characters given in the form of private lines in this message.  For the sake of reducing the "papers & paychecks" aspect of the game, the stated amounts have already been posted to your various credit chips along with a message from Master Chief Taylor:  "Well Done!  Don't spend it all in one place."
This message was last edited by the GM at 07:42, Mon 20 July 2020.

When you say "fully qualified" is that just on this ship, or will characters need to sit a test / evaluation to become recognised with that qualification??

Yup, just on Empress Katerina.  Having qualified there, and been certificated, though, will make it easier for you to qualify more quickly on other vessels.  Watch qualification in my Traveller universe is much akin to that pursued by Navy personnel in the "real" world.  I served in the US Navy aboard an attack submarine, and believe that life aboard a starship would be much like life aboard a submarine, and for many of the same reasons relating to crew and ship safety being of paramount concern.

So how would someone go about getting certification that is recognised beyond the immediate ship??

There are certifications that issue inherently from having certain basic maritime skills at +1.  Watch qualifications are different from ship to ship.  Transferring to a ship of the same or similar class would mean faster qualification on the new vessel.

Transferring from, say, the Empress Katerina to another Far Trader might be something of a let-down (Empress Katerina is rather special, after all), but you'd be watch qualified in under a week after some perfunctory checkouts.

Transferring to a Gazelle Class Destroyer might entail a longer re-qual period, just because so many systems would be different.  Make sense?

(I was qualified in Submarines, but would have had to re-qualify on watches had I transferred to another boat.)

Fascinating stuff, thanks for all this.

Navy huh? Sweet! I was army for 8 years.

I did the Navy thing as well although on a nuke cruiser.

I was in the scouts as a kid, if that helps?? (Feeling slightly in awe of people right now)

In reply to Marc (Blackie) DuQuesne (msg # 31):

Sweet! Thanks for serving!

Not everyone CAN serve Levi, sad you didn't get to. It's an awesome feeling!
This message was last edited by the player at 12:13, Mon 27 July 2020.

The Scouts are good, both kinds!  :)

Heheh... True. Looked at joining the RAF when I was a kid, but it was never a career path I ever really followed.

Now I'm doing something that is even riskier than being on active service - I teach teenagers!! Saying that, one of the best teachers I ever met was a PE and Maths teacher, and former army. Great level of discipline in his class, used anecdotes from his time in the service and the kids really respected him. Once he finished answering the usual "did you shoot anyone" and "what battles you been in" questions.

In reply to Levi Stensgaard (msg # 35):

Some memories are better left there, some people can talk about it, some can't. I was a cub scout!

In reply to Harry McStubbin (msg # 36):

You English Levi?

I get your meaning. Reckon at least half of the anecdotes he used were fictional, the rest... Who knows??

Yup, I'm English. A Geordie in fact, so far enough North to be closer to Edinburgh and the Scottish government than I am to London and the British.

Cool! ;-)

A Geordie?

TLDR; friendly, decent people born in Newcastle upon Tyne in the Northeast of England.

Sorry for length of this - started writing and couldn't stop. I'm proud of where I'm from and who I am!!

A Geordie is a native of Newcastle upon Tyne in the Northeast of England. When the rest of England was conquered by the French, we were the cool kids and were conquered by the Danes and Vikings who settled here.

You can still hear their influence in our regional dialect. We say yem or ohm instead of home, ganning for going, claggy for thick and sticky, clarts for muck (mud usually), heed, hinny, oot, howay, aye, and so on. People often think that it's the Scottish influence on our culture, but they like us have a mixture of Gaelic and Danish influence, more akin to the Irish Gaelic tribes than the southern English (or Mercian) tribes. Only our dialect is closer to Danish than Gaelic.

Go 14miles south where you hit Sunderland, our "hated" rivals. Similar accent, but there's is significantly different - noticeable only to those born in our region... They're the Mackems, so named because they used to build the ship hills and we'd fit them out at our yards - so they'd make them and we'd take them, hence the phrase Mackem and Takem.

Another 20miles and you have Middlesbrough, the city of the Smoggies. Other places nearby we have Reivers, Sand-dancers, Monkey-Hangers... All of whom are seen (or heard) as Geordies, but who aren't true Geordies.

Then there's football - or soccer as you heathens call it. Real football, where you use your feet to kick the ball to each other rather than throw it, and we're the Magpies of Newcastle United. Sunderland are 2 full divisions below us, so our usual heated rivalry is somewhat muted at the minute. We're passionate about our football, we have black and white blood in our veins.

In real terms, our economy was always based on shipbuilding and mining for tin and coal, but those industries have died a death up here in my lifetime, meaning higher unemployment and less money (80% of the UK's wealth is in and around London, and Newcastle is a small city compared to other southern cities like Birmingham, Manchester and Coventry - so we're not high up on the list of cities to invest in). But outside of small rural communities, we're one of the (if not the) friendliest cities in the UK. We still hold family values highly, look out for one another and value the sense of community that larger cities have lost.

We love our little luxuries. Despite not having much money we celebrate life, usually enjoy drinking and smoking (if that's your thing) and on the little things in life - mostly social in nature.

There's a reason why the Geordie accent is used as a voice-over in a lot of adverts to sell products. We are viewed as friendly, honest, trustworthy and down to earth. However, the few Geordies that we've exported to the USA usually come with subtitles!!

There you go, a short (ha!) synopsis for you.

You sound like us in Pennsylvania. Our coal and oil were killed by the left who want it dead completely now. And 'football' was called soccer by the English FIRST! We just adopted the term. We don't have much and family is high on the list, though the left is trying to destroy God and family, so sad.

Was always told by friends we were.more like people from Maine, but with no reference to go on (other than my friends who were from Maine) I wouldn't dare argue for or against!!

And you mean Association Football that became soccer that then returned to its roots of football?? Yup, we termed it soccer then rebranded it again. Only you lot must have missed the memo (Or have already created your own sport called football, and didn't want to rebrand that in order to rename soccer)!!

Anyway, you're right. There is and always will be a north/south divide in the UK, and I don't mean England/Scotland. It's a bit daft that Londoners think the north starts in Watford which is... What?? 20miles north?? While we're 270... So same as you - industry cut, jobs lost and because it would take major investment to train the population in whatever industrial sector they were trying to establish... Well, it's just easier to spend the money elsewhere. Besides, the northeast is notorious for voting labour, so when labour are in power they don't invest up here as they try to bribe the southerners then when the Tories are in power why should they spend money in Labour's heartlands as we'll never vote for them.

Well, until the last election that is. But that's another story!!

In reply to Levi Stensgaard (msg # 43):

Thank you for the education on Geordies!  It sounds like a wonderful place although I doubt I'll ever get there.  I've been as far north as Birmingham on business and thought the Black Country accent was rough (we spent some time talking to an old time tool maker and literally had to have an interpreter!) but I imagine your accent is just as strong if in a different way.

The regional differences in the UK are truly fascinating.  I always enjoy learning more about the local histories that don't come across in the homogenized BBC or London-centric shows and news.

My extended family are deep southern Illinois; coal miners and farmers of deeply German stock.  I always had fun with my cousins, aunts and uncles in the summers as a kid.

Oh, and being taken to a pub and eating faggots!  Yum!

In reply to Marc (Blackie) DuQuesne (msg # 45):

Why would you eat cigarettes? That's what a faggot is isn't it?

Meatballs made from pork offcuts and offal, mixed with herbs. Delicious, but not something we eat all that often. Serve with thick gravy, fried onions...

In reply to Levi Stensgaard (msg # 47):

Awwwww!

Just delicious. Like dinner kebabs, don't ask what's in them, just enjoy the moment!!

In reply to Levi Stensgaard (msg # 49):

It was delicious!  I ate it on a dare in a pub after a pint or two.