Custom Content.   Posted by The Storyteller.Group: 0
The Storyteller
 GM, 5 posts
 Player of Grimes
 Wibbly-Wobbly
Mon 23 Sep 2019
at 01:55
Custom Content
This is a place for discussing/ posting, and recording Custom Content such as: Custom Rites, Custom Gifts and Custom Fetishes ((Aka: Not currently in the books anywhere.)
The Storyteller
 GM, 6 posts
 Player of Grimes
 Wibbly-Wobbly
Mon 23 Sep 2019
at 01:57
Custom Content
PLACEHOLDER:


(Type, Level, Who gets it)
GIFTS:
(Example, Level ??, Example)

[6 blank lines suppressed]

RITES:
(Example, Level ??, Example)






FETISHES:
(Example, Level ??, Example)
Seth
 STARS Beta, 1 post
 Silver Fang
 Ragabash
Mon 23 Sep 2019
at 02:49
Custom Content
Fetish:  Tefray Ha'Kanai, Level 3, Gnosis 7

Tefray Ha'Kanai (Zealot Claws) were inspired by the Sicarim (daggermen) of the Jews fighting against the Roman occupation of their land.  Long before the Nizari gave birth to the assassins that struck fear into the hearts of Crusaders, the Sicarim used their blades to wage guerilla warfare against the Roman military machine.  The sica daggers the Zealot's fighters mastered were fabled to be impossible to find while sheathed, able to easily slip into the weak points in armor, and cause devastating wounds when they find flesh.  These Fetish daggers, always paired, give true to those legends.

While attuned and sheathed, mundane senses and devices cannot spot the blades as long as at least one successes is achieved in concealing them.  Magical means of detection are unimpeded.  Until activated, they appear to be small fighting knives sized for human hands.  Once activated, they grow to a size that works as swords in homid, or fighting knives in Crinos, much like a klaive.  Activating them increases their armor piercing by half the user's permanent Gnosis for the scene, and works against natural (such as thick hides) and supernatural armor, but can't reduce powers that directly increase Stamina.  The ST is the final arbiter if a supernatural power that grants bonus soak dice counts as armor or not.

Spirits: Cats, Sphinx (esp. Sphinx of War), appropriate Ancestors.

Stat blocks:

Inactive - Diff 4, Str + 1 L, Conceal P, Tags: AP 1, +1 die to parry or disarm
Activated - Diff 4, Str + 2 A, Conceal J, Tags: AP 1 + (Gnosis/2), +1 die to parry or disarm

-----------

Notes:

Level 3 - As the base-line for weapons from H&K.  More versatile, but weaker than the large damage potential of a Fang Dagger, or silver damage of a Klaive.
Gnosis 7 - One less than the max of 8 because of the secondary stealth power and scene long effect.
The Storyteller
 GM, 7 posts
 Player of Grimes
 Wibbly-Wobbly
Mon 23 Sep 2019
at 05:46
Re: Custom Content
Seth:
Fetish:  Tefray Ha'Kanai, Level 3, Gnosis 7

Tefray Ha'Kanai (Zealot Claws) were inspired by the Sicarim (daggermen) of the Jews fighting against the Roman occupation of their land.  Long before the Nizari gave birth to the assassins that struck fear into the hearts of Crusaders, the Sicarim used their blades to wage guerilla warfare against the Roman military machine.  The sica daggers the Zealot's fighters mastered were fabled to be impossible to find while sheathed, able to easily slip into the weak points in armor, and cause devastating wounds when they find flesh.  These Fetish daggers, always paired, give true to those legends.

While attuned and sheathed, mundane senses and devices cannot spot the blades as long as at least one successes is achieved in concealing them.


'spot' vs 'perceive.' A hand can't 'spot' something, but it can perceive things. The problem I have here is that it's kind of encompassing, isn't it? If you hide the Fetish under your coat, strapped to your chest with duct-tape with 1 success on the Stealth roll and then are subject to a strip-search, they can't find the weapon, but would you retain it despite it being strapped to your chest by duct-tape? Would the attuned owner be able to perceive them?

Suggested fix for my finicky nature:

'While attuned and sheathed, Mundane senses and devices cannot perceive the blades as long as at least 1 success is achieved in concealing them (Dex+Stealth, Diff 6.) The Attuned owner of the fetish is not subject to this concealment.'

Seth:
Magical means of detection are unimpeded.  Until activated, they appear to be small fighting knives sized for human hands.  Once activated, they grow to a size that works as swords in homid, or fighting knives in Crinos, much like a klaive.  Activating them increases their armor piercing by half the user's permanent Gnosis for the scene, and works against natural (such as thick hides) and supernatural armor, but can't reduce powers that directly increase Stamina.


Liottle iffy onf 1/2 Permanent Gnosis to Armor-Piercing, given that this is a lvl 3. that means, by rights, a Garou could activate these things and for the rest of the scene ignore anywhere between 2-6 levels of Armor Soak. This negates most of the lighter armors entirely and really only leaves the heavier stuff and even then it reduces them to being far too heavy for any benefit they might give. and this includes magical/Fetish-based Armor?

Might I suggest 1/2 Permanent Rage, since Rage is what heavily influences Combat? (Throwing things at the wall because I'm leery abt the direct combat application of Gnosis. Feel free to tell me I'm off my damned rocker.)

Seth:
The ST is the final arbiter if a supernatural power that grants bonus soak dice counts as armor or not.


I don't mind this. Effects such as Trollskin and MAYBE Steel Fur wouldn't be affected but Luna's Armor is outright screwed, since it's in the smegging name. As is the Armor Charm for Spirits depending on how it manifests. Fortitude is out because that's just straight-up soak-dice, not armor.

Seth:
Spirits: Cats, Sphinx (esp. Sphinx of War), appropriate Ancestors.

Stat blocks:

Inactive - Diff 4, Str + 1 L, Conceal P, Tags: AP 1, +1 die to parry or disarm
Activated - Diff 4, Str + 2 A, Conceal J, Tags: AP 1 + (Gnosis/2), +1 die to parry or disarm


Nothing to say on the latter bits, save the 1/2 Gnosis thing. All in all? I can't say as it's a bad Fetish. I might say that a paired Fetish like this is Rating 4, since a Fang Dagger, while having massive-damage potential and a huge drawback (not being able to spend Rage in the round you use it, or use it in a round in which you've spent Rage already) is still a lvl 3 Fetish and is a single item.

This is a discussion, folks. Approval is by vote, not via fiat.

This message was last edited by the GM at 05:59, Mon 23 Sept 2019.

Seth
 STARS Beta, 2 posts
 Silver Fang
 Ragabash
Mon 23 Sep 2019
at 08:43
Re: Custom Content
The rewording on the concealment part is fine, my first drafts usually aren't the strongest on precise wording.

The 20th books are kind of all over the place for armor piercing.  M20 (the inactive stats are based on hook swords mixed with a dagger from there since W20 doesn't have anything similar) has 3 AP for a mundane stiletto.  So I felt the 2-6 was a reasonable range from that.

Part of the problem is there's not a lot of room.  Using the Hammer & Klaive guidelines, the level is mostly how broadly the Fetish applies, higher level weapons usually have effects that are useful in more situations than just combat (like social bonuses and whatnot).  The Gnosis rating is supposed to be how potent they are (with 8 at the highest and that's supposed to be for absolutely dominating effects).  One of the level 4 weapon Fetishes gives Spirit of the Fray for a scene on activation... which seems a lot more than AP... since targets might not even have armor.

As for Gnosis vs. Rage?  Not really a big concern for me.  Most Fetish stuff just keys off of Gnosis unless there's a specific reason for it to be something else.  So I defaulted to that.

On the paired thing, would it help if the tags were all dependent on dual wielding to work?  Losing one would basically just make it a fancy knife that can activate to do Agg and be a liability rather than a small advantage.
Will
 Birb, 1 post
 Call me Will
 Tell me I'm pretty
Tue 24 Sep 2019
at 16:04
Re: Custom Content
These do way too many things to be only level 3 Fetishes. They might be too powerful to be level five Fetishes.

Let's recall that there is already a really, really excellent dagger Fetish at level 3: Fang Dagger. It a) cannot be activated for the scene, b) must be activated with each strike (which precludes activation on any turn where the character has spent rage), and the only effect of activation is doubling damage roll successes pre-soak. That's what a level 3 Fetish does. A more specialized level three dagger-type is the Silent Striders' D'siah, which has a number of significant downsides (it's very easy to break) and the only real benefit it offers is stealing Gnosis from the people you hit.

The concealment factor of these should be a separate fetish that is a dagger-sized sheath that borrows some of the mechanics of Magpie's Swag:
W20, pg. 221:
...If dedicated, it counts as a single item, even if filled with other fetishes or even non-dedicated items, and it is represented by a stripe of fur in Crinos, Hispo, and Lupus forms.

In this case, activating the sheath causes it and the weapon it carries to meld into the Garou's form and be completely undetectable even by magical means (it might show up as like... a tattoo or a patch of discolored fur). Obviously the Garou knows it's still there and they can draw the weapon when they wish. If drawing it requires a second Activtaion roll, it should only be level 1 (since this would be a major tactical downside). If they can simply call the fetish back out of their form at will to draw the weapon, it should be level 2. I would suggest that the Fetish be completely incapable of working on a Klaive (what Garou would be stupid enough to put all that silver inside their body in the first place? But then... I've met players before, so that needs to be said explicitly). It would also duplicate part of the Magpie's swag effect where so long as you're attuned to the fetish, whatever dagger it carries does not also have to be Dedicated (in case someone wants the fetish sheath, but only a mundane knife)

That mechanic allocated separately, and going from the Fang Dagger example, if this is going to stay a level 3 dagger fetish, the mechanics should be a) does agg when activated, b) AP 1 + successes on the activation roll, c) must be activated for each attack made.

Alternately, if you really must have it activated for the whole scene, AP 2 when activated period.

EDIT:

Even a Klaive (a level 4 Fetish, often much-coveted and squabbled over) is attack diff 6 regardless of form (even though it's basically a dagger in Crinos and a short sword in homid), and does Str+2 A. To be fair, it doesn't have to be activated, and also has the added benefit of Garou and silver-vulnerable Fera being unable to soak it's damage (outside special circumstances).

And yes, a Klaive has Renown benefits and story elements, but a lesser weapon Fetish should not outshine it. Almost never.

This message was last edited by the player at 16:18, Tue 24 Sept 2019.

Seth
 STARS Beta, 3 posts
 Silver Fang
 Ragabash
Tue 24 Sep 2019
at 22:09
Re: Custom Content
It does... two things... has a passive concealment benefit (and one that's by default worse than a Level 1 Fetish is capable of), and boosts existing tags when activated.

There's a level 4 Fetish weapon that does Agg (though not silver) all the time, and activates to provide a level 2 Gift for the scene.

There's also both the Rank of the Fetish (which really only matters for how many points it costs to get) and the Gnosis rating of the Fetish (which is what impacts it's reliability in play).  There's a reason the Gnosis his higher than all the Fetishes you just mentioned; it makes it harder to use reliably.

The "easy to break" bit was removed from the D'siah, is always Agg against Wyrm creatures instead of needing to be activated for it, and does +3 damage to Setites; on top of being able to drain Gnosis/Essence.  So, that's actually an example of a Level 3 Fetish doing a few different things at once too.

Turning it into two Fetishes means making things more powerful because the sheath would have to be good enough to count as a level 1 Fetish on its own (working against magical detection is already a huge bump in power).

Also, seriously, can we make a case for why AP is being treated as a massive game breaker here?  As I noted, there's a mundane simple knife in the books with 3 AP.  What's the point of a Fetish that's biggest thing is AP... having worse AP than what a mundane blade can be made to do?
Will
 Birb, 2 posts
 Call me Will
 Tell me I'm pretty
Tue 24 Sep 2019
at 23:30
Re: Custom Content
tl;dr I've done some looking into weapons and learned some things (including more reasons to curse at White Wolf and their malefic inconsistencies in game mechanics. I wrote several paragraphs here. Suffice to say, they're gone and I'm listing the following suggested changes:

Tefray Ha'Kanai
<level and gnosis untouched>

<fluff paragraph untouched>

While attuned and sheathed, mundane means of detection automatically fail to locate the weapons. Magical means of detection are unimpeded. The Garou attuned to the fetish can always locate the blades on their person and the weapons are always perfectly sized for the hands of whatever form they are wearing. When activated after striking with an attack, the blades ignore all non-magical armor protecting the target.

<spirits untouched>

Weapon stats: Difficulty 4, Damage Str + 1 Agg, AP 3 (ignores all mundane armor when activated), +1 die to the wielder's attempts to parry or disarm.
Seth
 STARS Beta, 4 posts
 Silver Fang
 Ragabash
Wed 25 Sep 2019
at 01:10
Re: Custom Content
I'm not opposed to the "ignore armor" and activate per hit approach if people feel that's better.

My only concern with the proposed option is, "...the blades ignore all non-magical armor protecting the target." as far as interpretation goes.  Is a bane-possessed pig with some armor from having a thick hide in possession of magical armor (the naturally thick hide of a pig is magically boosted by possession process), or normal armor that happens to exist for supernatural reasons.  Similarly if a wizard summons armor out of thin-air that's otherwise normal armor, is it magical because it was created by magic?  Or non-magical because the armor itself is perfectly normal outside of its creation?

I don't think we'll need to worry about crossover stuff, but some of the games have items that could be seen as "mixed" like a mage that's strengthened normal armor.  If it's normally got AR 3, and magically been boosted to AR 6, is it a flat 6 magical armor, or 3 non-magical armor that can be bypassed, and 3 magical armor that can't?

I don't have a strong feeling on a "right" answer to any of these, but I feel like it would be best to make the intention clear while hashing it out.

I definitely agree the ignore armor method shouldn't just defeat Luna's Armor or the Armor Charm.  But I'm not sure the Fetish's armor ignoring power should be useless in the face of anything that is in anyway supernatural given the nature of the WoD.
The Storyteller
 GM, 8 posts
 Player of Grimes
 Wibbly-Wobbly
Fri 27 Sep 2019
at 18:01
Re: Custom Content
My Thoughts: Armor Piercing/Reducing isn't a problem, now that I've thought about it. Lord knows we've got AP Bullets IRL.

I also don't want it to explicitly be like a Fang Dagger in that it's a 1-shot/activation use, since that just re-purposes the Fang Dagger from 'Extra Damage' to 'Armor Piercing.'

For the concerns of 'armor' here's my ruling:

If it's got something that acts like armor, or looks like armor, or is in some way 'extra' on top of its flesh (including a plating of bone) then it's armor.

Luna's Armor? Yep. Strollskin? Nope. Steel Fur? nope. Reasoning: Lunar's Armor is a kind of spiritual deflection, whereas Trollskin strengthens the user's skin, and Steel Fur strengthens the user's fur (and can only be used in Crinos-Lupus forms for obvious reasons.)

Mages using Forces/Matter to create 'armor' around their bodies of kinetic force and random junk off the street? It'd go through that. Mages using Prime and Life? Nope. Life sphere to strengthen their bodies and prime to strengthen their Patterns just enhances their soak...


Vampiric Fortitude: Nope. Just gives 'em more soak.

Tzimisce using Bonecraft to make bone plating on their War Ghouls? It'd go around/through that.

I much prefer an 'always on when active' theme, TBH. I hate 'activate -> Attack -> Activate again...' formula, since it A: Slows everything down and B: Is repetitive. not only that, but it's the worst sin of all...


Boring. This is why I hate Fang Daggers. powerful? yeah. But boring. 'Oh look, more damage output. Yay more DPS.'

So.

If we change the stealth thing to an 'always on when Attuned' thing, change the damage to Agg always (Because if it's got a War Spirit in there, it's Agg, that's kind of their basic thing...) the wording thing....

The Armor-Piercing thing, as it stands, isn't a bad thing. 1+ (1/2 Permanent Gnosis) isn't a bad rating, all things considered. the most it goes up to is 6 (Yes, I know I'm changing my tune here) and that's not a BAD thing when you have to roll Gnosis (Or spend Gnosis) to activate the damned thing pre-stabbing.
Will
 Birb, 3 posts
 Call me Will
 Tell me I'm pretty
Fri 27 Sep 2019
at 18:57
Re: Custom Content
I cannot accept some mystical powers being ignored and others not. That's arbitrary and frankly unacceptable in my book.
Seth
 STARS Beta, 5 posts
 Silver Fang
 Ragabash
Fri 27 Sep 2019
at 23:50
Re: Custom Content
On the activation issue:

Honestly, in live-play, I'd be more adamant about the scene long thing.  It's very much the issue expressed of added rolls to deal with.  In PbP play, that doesn't bug me as much.  I'd rather the smaller bonus once for the scene as a matter of playstyle, but if there's a stronger feeling that the more potent activate per attack bonus is easier for addressing other issues I'd prefer to let that get addressed.

On mystical powers:

We need some sort of metric.  Just saying "no mystic powers can be ignored," makes the Fetish borderline on pointless in an animistic setting.  Dedicated armor is technically a mystic power, and letting it turn armor into "magical armor," just like letting magic summon mundane armor turning into into "magical armor" is worse than arbitrary; it's immersion breaking that putting on armor with magic makes it immune to armor piercing powers.

We're going to have to be arbitrary because the books aren't written with "this provides armor dice," as a significant thing.  Powers just grant soak dice and leaves it to the description of the power to imply how that manifests.

Even if the line is set at it can't beat, "any power that grants bonus dice to soak," it's still an arbitrary one we're using to get us all on the same page.

So, let's try to find a line that works as best as possible.  I'm fine with something more restrictive and/or more technically defined so it's more consistent between STs, but we need something to sort through all the soak boosting powers that don't bother telling us directly what kind of soak bonus they should be treated as.